MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Scilly
Originally posted by meddyck
If there's anybody who can make an RvR game that comes close to what DAOC used to be, it's the people who designed DAOC in the first place. That's why I'm following TESO and CU with interest.
The problem with TESO based on what I read on their own web site is that it will be another game where RvRers will have to do PvE raids to stay competitive in RvR. I'm sick to death of that. Now it is possible that TESO's RvR will neverthless be so much fun that I'll be willing to raid in it. But I highly doubt it. More than likely it will be another WAR or GW 2 where RvR fans give it a shot and give up on it after a couple of months.
That's why I'm more than likely going to back CU's kickstarter. It's the kind of RvR game I want to play: one that doesn't require me to go on 40 main raids or grind instanced dungeons before I can RvR. Mark and co. could certainly get RvR wrong (again). They wouldn't be the first or the last. But I'm prepared to forgive and forget his past missteps in the hopes that he can make a new RvR game that will be fun for years. And if he fails again, who else will ever do better? At that point, we'll either need to settle for the kind of keep-swapping, PvE-in-order-to-RvR games the industry churns out or just give up on the whole concept of RvR.
I completely respect why others would be hesitant to put their money into a game like CU that is basically only a bunch of foundational statements at this point (but I'm sure Mark and crew have been hard at work behind the scenes designing how the game will play in detail so they can get right to work when/if the kickstarter succeeds). I can afford financially to take a chance on it. I expect that the kickstarter rewards will make it a good financial deal for anybody who would end up buying the game and subscribing for months anyway. YMMV.
im guessing MJ knows this and thats why he has chosen now to come out with this idea.
Actually, we've been talking about this game in the studio for quite a long time. I just wasn't sure if:
1) I wanted to go down this path again since I knew that I would end up getting some heat for it.
2) I knew that getting traditional VC support for a niche MMORPG would be near impossible. I knew that my revenue projections would scare them off especially the bit about lowering subscription prices instead of trying to charge more.
When Kickstarter success stories started piling up, that solved one of the issues. As to (1), well, that was a very hard decision that I had to discuss with the studio, my family and myself. I gave the studio the option to kill the project and we would stick to mobile/tablet spaces and move on to another project and they supported it. My family was a bit more cautious because they remember that working on WAR with EA put me in the E.R. a few times but they did then did the sign-off thing.
As to TESO, actually, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to do the game. Matt has some really great people there and I think incredibly highly of the Bethesda guys so I had to weigh the fact that we were going to do a niche game that would be in the same space as one part of TESO. Not an easy challenge nor decision. But I believe in the vision for the game and I know that we will deliver a fun game for our players. Will it be outstanding, stupendous, amazing? That will be up to the players to decide as I've sworn off such adjectives in describing CU.
FFXI is a great example of a MMORPG that puts almost all of their resources to create new PvE content and keep the PvE crowd happy.
How?
Well it's because they didn't waste their time trying to create PvP content for the game.
The biggest flaw with the current/upcoming MMORPGs is that they spend a lot of resources into creating a "hybrid MMORPG" that includes both PvE and PvP. If instead they would choose only to create a PvE mmorpg or a PvP mmorpg they would be able to produce a lot more content for the actual game.
Sure the problem in this is that you lose the typical PvP or PvE crowds if you choose one or the other but atleast you can provide one of the best mmorpg experiences in the market for certain players. FFXI is a good example of a game that has such a vast amount of PvE content that puts WoW into shame.
I will be supporting CU on their kickstarter simply because they are mainly saying that
"This is a RvR game, if you are looking for PvE go **** yourself"
I would also be supporting them if they decide to make a purely PvE game.
If you really want to make the best PvE mmorpg, focus on PvE and ditch PvP.
If you really want to make the best PvP mmorpg, focus on PvP and ditch PvE.
FFXI is a great example of a MMORPG that puts almost all of their resources to create new PvE content and keep the PvE crowd happy.
How?
Well it's because they didn't waste their time trying to create PvP content for the game.
The biggest flaw with the current/upcoming MMORPGs is that they spend a lot of resources into creating a "hybrid MMORPG" that includes both PvE and PvP. If instead they would choose only to create a PvE mmorpg or a PvP mmorpg they would be able to produce a lot more content for the actual game.
Sure the problem in this is that you lose the typical PvP or PvE crowds if you choose one or the other but atleast you can provide one of the best mmorpg experiences in the market for certain players. FFXI is a good example of a game that has such a vast amount of PvE content that puts WoW into shame.
I will be supporting CU on their kickstarter simply because they are mainly saying that
"This is a RvR game, if you are looking for PvE go **** yourself"
I would also be supporting them if they decide to make a purely PvE game.
If you really want to make the best PvE mmorpg, focus on PvE and ditch PvP.
If you really want to make the best PvP mmorpg, focus on PvP and ditch PvE.
It's really simple.
Completely agree. I played FFXI for a few years and there was no pvp. it was an amazing experience. I expect the same thing from CSE. Great RVR for many years with no pve experiences meshed in. Can't wait.
Not going to fund it. Do you really know enough about this game? He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU. You could be funding some features that you hate.
Will there be stealthers? A simple question for which we have no official answer.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Not going to fund it. Do you really know enough about this game? He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU. You could be funding some features that you hate.
Will there be stealthers? A simple question for which we have no official answer.
How much information is available when the KS starts (3-4 weeks?) will impact how much I throw in. The dev posts are certainly helping clear things up, and at the rate Mark is turning them out there should be a lot of info available by the time kickstarter opens, not to mention KS stretch goals will add some info. I think one of mark's posts next week is getting at this, but maybe there should be an official thread that collects frequesnt questions and answers that the community wants to know to help people make up their minds on the KS.
Not going to fund it. Do you really know enough about this game? He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU. You could be funding some features that you hate.
Will there be stealthers? A simple question for which we have no official answer.
How much do you really know about any game until you play it live? Most of us had no clue how WAR played in tier 4 until the game was released and we got high enough level to see for ourselves weeks or months after release. From what we saw in beta in tier 1, it looked like a great game.
Obviously funding the kickstarter isn't for everyone. But there's no requirement that you give him $1000 either. For many of us who loved DAOC, it's now 12 years later. We have jobs. We can afford to give $5, $25, or even more to make CU become a reality. It may turn out to be money wasted but so was the $60 I spent on the vanilla WOW box I set aside after playing 2 weeks. Big deal. The amount I invest in CU is not going to break my finances.
Not going to fund it. Do you really know enough about this game? He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU. You could be funding some features that you hate.
Will there be stealthers? A simple question for which we have no official answer.
How much do you really know about any game until you play it live? Most of us had no clue how WAR played in tier 4 until the game was released and we got high enough level to see for ourselves weeks or months after release. From what we saw in beta in tier 1, it looked like a great game.
Obviously funding the kickstarter isn't for everyone. But there's no requirement that you give him $1000 either. For many of us who loved DAOC, it's now 12 years later. We have jobs. We can afford to give $5, $25, or even more to make CU become a reality. It may turn out to be money wasted but so was the $60 I spent on the vanilla WOW box I set aside after playing 2 weeks. Big deal. The amount I invest in CU is not going to break my finances.
Yeah noone is obligated to toss up $1000 just to become a backer. I am sure if someone wanted to they could but it defintely isn't mandatory. I am a backer for Grim Dawn and Path of EXile. Between the 2 I donated a total of 85 bucks.
Originally posted by Anthur I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.
The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all. It's a clone. And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel. BOOM! POW! You can RVR day 1. The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid. PVE is where people meet. PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding. PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.
RVR is definitely the fun side. But it is also the dark side. RVR is where elitism was created. RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!). RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win. RVR is where alliances are broken not made. RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.
I'll be throwing money at it. Cutting pve out completely to focus on rvr is a step in the right direction. You can't keep both sides happy... I've seen one side neglected in every mmo I've played so far, and usually it's the pvp community getting the shaft. Sure some of his ideas sound a bit strange, but I'd like to see what he comes up with. Nevermind the fact that if it works then maybe we'll get more like it in the future rather than the same failed attempts of making a hybrid over and over.
I am all for old school types of games being made, but I will not be funding this. Mark Jacobs could have at least spent SOME time developing a prototype before asking for money. There are Indie developers out there that actually have spent time developing a game before going to Kickstarter asking for money. I know he said he's going to sink a metric ton of his own money into this AFTER kickstarter funding, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
Everyone is getting so excited for concept. I can't even understand why MMORPG.com has this game listed as "In Development" and even allowed on the hype meter.
I'm not hating on this game and want it to be made for those who are really excited for a DAoC the 2nd, I just don't like how a MAJOR developer/designer who has had incredible success in the gaming world can't even make up a prototype to show something off before asking for millions on Kickstarter.
Originally posted by Anthur I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.
The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all. It's a clone. And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel. BOOM! POW! You can RVR day 1. The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid. PVE is where people meet. PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding. PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.
RVR is definitely the fun side. But it is also the dark side. RVR is where elitism was created. RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!). RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win. RVR is where alliances are broken not made. RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.
A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.
Personally I don't like PvE I never have, all I want to do is RvR/PvP. A game where I don't have to PvE to grind gear for RvR is perfect for me. Why do you care how other people want to play? Why does it make you so angry, you just come off bitter.
im guessing MJ knows this and thats why he has chosen now to come out with this idea.
Actually, we've been talking about this game in the studio for quite a long time. I just wasn't sure if:
1) I wanted to go down this path again since I knew that I would end up getting some heat for it.
2) I knew that getting traditional VC support for a niche MMORPG would be near impossible. I knew that my revenue projections would scare them off especially the bit about lowering subscription prices instead of trying to charge more.
When Kickstarter success stories started piling up, that solved one of the issues. As to (1), well, that was a very hard decision that I had to discuss with the studio, my family and myself. I gave the studio the option to kill the project and we would stick to mobile/tablet spaces and move on to another project and they supported it. My family was a bit more cautious because they remember that working on WAR with EA put me in the E.R. a few times but they did then did the sign-off thing.
As to TESO, actually, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to do the game. Matt has some really great people there and I think incredibly highly of the Bethesda guys so I had to weigh the fact that we were going to do a niche game that would be in the same space as one part of TESO. Not an easy challenge nor decision. But I believe in the vision for the game and I know that we will deliver a fun game for our players. Will it be outstanding, stupendous, amazing? That will be up to the players to decide as I've sworn off such adjectives in describing CU.
Mark
I think my biggest problem with idea of a 40% fan funded game, is that you aren't creating anything truly original. A post-apocalytic Camelot is still Camelot, the foundation for DAoC. The realm descriptions even sound very dark age-ish. Build something proprietary with innovation and creativity.
By your own words, the game appears to be a version of Frontiers with little or no PVE. If you're trying to build an open world MOBA based off of the three realm system you previously established in DAoC, just say so. You can alienate your mmo supporters now and they won't feel cheated later.
And, by the way, if you're going to cut the leg of PVE off this horse, your game is going to struggle.
Personally I don't like PvE I never have, all I want to do is RvR/PvP. A game where I don't have to PvE to grind gear for RvR is perfect for me. Why do you care how other people want to play? Why does it make you so angry, you just come off bitter.
LOL no one really likes PVE. And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion? I'm simply stating facts. If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA. And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P. So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous. In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place. Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?
Originally posted by Anthur I agree that new ideas should be supported. But where is the innvoation in making a DAoC2 without PvE ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.
The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all. It's a clone. And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel. BOOM! POW! You can RVR day 1. The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid. PVE is where people meet. PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding. PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.
RVR is definitely the fun side. But it is also the dark side. RVR is where elitism was created. RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!). RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win. RVR is where alliances are broken not made. RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.
A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.
That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.
And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?
Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?
So, what's the potential profit? What's the risk? Where are my company reports and project outline? What about the estimated release date? Someone call my secretary.
Can I see your past work portfolio Mr. Jacobs? Oh, wow. I see you were lead designer and CEO of Mythic for Dark ages of Camelot. Very good. Whoa... Whoa, wait a second here. You were responsible for Warhammer online?!
I see. We'll call you about our potential investment. Don't call us.
Originally posted by Normandy7 For me this is about trying to make a difference. No more will I toss money at overhyped big publisher mmos. The majority has been pretty much fail and quite honestly I would rather roll the dice and give an inde dev a shot. Things have to change in the mmo world and here is an opportunity to make things happen the right way.
Ah, the naive thought of thinking kickstarter will change the industry. There will always be big budgets that get it right, big budgets that fail, indies that get it right, indies that fail. No gaurantee you will like CU if it gets made. Translating paper to game can fail just as easily, in fact even more easily, for a small budget game.
Yes, you have the uninspired games like SWTOR and Rift sticking too closely to WoW. But you also have GW2 and TSW whch do anything but try to be WoW. There is very lttle wrong with either TSW or GW2, they both got it right by trying to create something new from the ground up. You dont like either? Thats not the developer's fault. The "change" has already happened. Sure, some will still try to chase WoW but studios have been trying to break the mold. Look at the two major and the two minor releases from last year. A game without holy trinity and devalued gear progression, a game that was neither fantasy nor sci fi and didnt have traditional levels, a game with a more action oriented combat system, and a MMOFPS. Four games and only one was WoW-like, and that game had a very un-WoW combat system.
And the game that was WoW-like? Wasnt the game from Funcom, NCSoft, or SoE. Nope, it was the one of the four from an inde dev.
That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.
And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?
Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?
Obviously, you didn't play DAoC at all. Examples: your elite guild mentions are from WoW, "corpse camp" I can only assume that is also from WoW, and I never even heard of DKP until after I left the DAoC scene. Probably because you didn't have guilds with 200 members fighting over gear.
So let's step away from your experiences in other games that aren't applicable. OK? In DAoC (and most games tbh), PVE is where people met when they began the game. For example, in midgard, Vendo Caverns was a staple. Everyone went there at some point. Before the bot craze, you typically needed help. You could spend 1-10 hours with a few people just grinding away levels. It was tedious to earn the xp but you were with other peole. You could "lol" in chat and share experiences. THAT's what builds friendships in games, shared experiences... common bonds.
My friend, in WoW you didn't experience the 8 man guilds that logged on at the same time, spoke to no one, shared no intelligence, and wouldn't dare help fellow realmmates or defend anything.
I am assisting in the funding of the game because I enjoyed the past work of Mark, feel this game brings to me something I have been wanting for awhile now, and the idea of backing such a niche project appeals to me.
However, I do want to go on record that I don't feel the High Fantasy genre makes the game easier to produce over a Sci-Fi (or other setting) setting in the suspension of disbelief category. Personally, I would have backed this even more if it had been given a Cyberpunk style setting (or Shadowrun style setting if you really need your High Fantasy as well.) as the war of the Corporations, Anarchs, Governments, etc would have been more unique and intriguing. Having the RvR, Crafting, Housing, etc explained via your story to me isn't a hard job if your writer is talented enough no matter the setting. I will still play the game and have fun otherwise though as a Viking! :-p
LOL no one really likes PVE. And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion? I'm simply stating facts. If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA. And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P. So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous. In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place. Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?
Do you even know what the A in MOBA stands for? Let me help you: arena. There isn't anything about CU that is comparable to a MOBA's instanced arenas. The world will be non-instanced and persistent just like DAOC's and WAR's frontiers. I'm baffled why people keep trying to call CU a MOBA just because you don't have to kill 1,000,000 NPCs to level to 50 before you go RvR.
That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.
And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?
Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?
Obviously, you didn't play DAoC at all. Examples: your elite guild mentions are from WoW, "corpse camp" I can only assume that is also from WoW, and I never even heard of DKP until after I left the DAoC scene. Probably because you didn't have guilds with 200 members fighting over gear.
So let's step away from your experiences in other games that aren't applicable. OK? In DAoC (and most games tbh), PVE is where people met when they began the game. For example, in midgard, Vendo Caverns was a staple. Everyone went there at some point. Before the bot craze, you typically needed help. You could spend 1-10 hours with a few people just grinding away levels. It was tedious to earn the xp but you were with other peole. You could "lol" in chat and share experiences. THAT's what builds friendships in games, shared experiences... common bonds.
My friend, in WoW you didn't experience the 8 man guilds that logged on at the same time, spoke to no one, shared no intelligence, and wouldn't dare help fellow realmmates or defend anything.
Well for starters, DKP was developed during EQ (2 years before DAoC?) and i believe and I first saw Corpse camping in SWG. We actually used to randsom Jedis while they were incapacitaed. There were 'elite' guilds in EQ, but I'll admit my first experience in one was with WoW, and there it was the same thing. People logged on at 7:55, raided for 5 hours, logged off. Same thing in Rift. I wouldn't write off the last 10 years of MMOs as irrelavent, as they are proving that your thesis of "PvE is good, PvP is bad for friends" is unsupported besides perhaps a single annecdote.
My point is that there is nothing intrinsically special about PvE vs. PvP for developing groups and relationships in an MMO. It's more about how the developers design the system. If the Devs make it so everyone needs to gang up and defeat a PvE dungeon, while 8 guys can roam RvR by themselves without an incentive to group, then yea that may happen. But if the Devs make (like I hope CU will be) a system where large PvP groups are rewarded for getting together and melting faces and working together then the I don't see how that isn't social. What builds comradery is working or struggling for a common goal, and it doesn't matter if that common goal is leveling up in a dungeon or destroying a player held tower.
I will be supporting this myself, i really like what the guy is saying.. every blog he posts up seems to hit the nail on the head for me..
Just like he says this game will not be foreveryone... some people hate PVP and you know what thats fine this game just wont be for them.. just like WOW, GW2, Rifts or whatever are not for me.
Plus the MMO industry needs some new blood pumped into it.
I will be supporting this myself, i really like what the guy is saying.. every blog he posts up seems to hit the nail on the head for me..
Just like he says this game will not be foreveryone... some people hate PVP and you know what thats fine this game just wont be for them.. just like WOW, GW2, Rifts or whatever are not for me.
Plus the MMO industry needs some new blood pumped into it.
No pain no gain after all If we don't support it'll never see the light.
I'm interested to see if such a niche game can meet its benchmark on funding. Even if it just barely scrapes by, that does not bode well for its ability to make money. I think the fund drive needs to be a huge success to prove once and for all that even a severley niche game can make a decent profit. Maybe then, other developers will step forward with their niche ideas and start moving the genre forward.
I won't be helping as PvP is not my niche, but I have my fingers crossed for you guys so that it may lead to my niche being brought forward in the future (PVE only, casual, sandpark, no raids, huge virtual world for exploration).
I don't understand how people are acting like this doesn't already exist. There are plenty of PvP-only games out there. MOBA's may have a different 'style' but essentially they are the exact same thing. That's ALL you're doing. If there's no PvE, then what you're doing is logging into an arena to run around and smack people in. You can do that in plenty of games, I'm missing how CU is some bright shining example of shoulda-coulda-woulda.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Comments
Actually, we've been talking about this game in the studio for quite a long time. I just wasn't sure if:
1) I wanted to go down this path again since I knew that I would end up getting some heat for it.
2) I knew that getting traditional VC support for a niche MMORPG would be near impossible. I knew that my revenue projections would scare them off especially the bit about lowering subscription prices instead of trying to charge more.
When Kickstarter success stories started piling up, that solved one of the issues. As to (1), well, that was a very hard decision that I had to discuss with the studio, my family and myself. I gave the studio the option to kill the project and we would stick to mobile/tablet spaces and move on to another project and they supported it. My family was a bit more cautious because they remember that working on WAR with EA put me in the E.R. a few times but they did then did the sign-off thing.
As to TESO, actually, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to do the game. Matt has some really great people there and I think incredibly highly of the Bethesda guys so I had to weigh the fact that we were going to do a niche game that would be in the same space as one part of TESO. Not an easy challenge nor decision. But I believe in the vision for the game and I know that we will deliver a fun game for our players. Will it be outstanding, stupendous, amazing? That will be up to the players to decide as I've sworn off such adjectives in describing CU.
Mark
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
FFXI is a great example of a MMORPG that puts almost all of their resources to create new PvE content and keep the PvE crowd happy.
How?
Well it's because they didn't waste their time trying to create PvP content for the game.
The biggest flaw with the current/upcoming MMORPGs is that they spend a lot of resources into creating a "hybrid MMORPG" that includes both PvE and PvP. If instead they would choose only to create a PvE mmorpg or a PvP mmorpg they would be able to produce a lot more content for the actual game.
Sure the problem in this is that you lose the typical PvP or PvE crowds if you choose one or the other but atleast you can provide one of the best mmorpg experiences in the market for certain players. FFXI is a good example of a game that has such a vast amount of PvE content that puts WoW into shame.
I will be supporting CU on their kickstarter simply because they are mainly saying that
"This is a RvR game, if you are looking for PvE go **** yourself"
I would also be supporting them if they decide to make a purely PvE game.
If you really want to make the best PvE mmorpg, focus on PvE and ditch PvP.
If you really want to make the best PvP mmorpg, focus on PvP and ditch PvE.
It's really simple.
so, is this the new thing? people give money to fund a project before even really knowing what it's like?
i'd like to able to at least test it or something before i invested or at least have a clear idea of what exactly is going on.
from what i read about this game it's not very clear.
Completely agree. I played FFXI for a few years and there was no pvp. it was an amazing experience. I expect the same thing from CSE. Great RVR for many years with no pve experiences meshed in. Can't wait.
Not going to fund it. Do you really know enough about this game? He is asking for input here but as nice as input may be that doesn't mean what you want will be select for inclusion into CU. You could be funding some features that you hate.
Will there be stealthers? A simple question for which we have no official answer.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
How much information is available when the KS starts (3-4 weeks?) will impact how much I throw in. The dev posts are certainly helping clear things up, and at the rate Mark is turning them out there should be a lot of info available by the time kickstarter opens, not to mention KS stretch goals will add some info. I think one of mark's posts next week is getting at this, but maybe there should be an official thread that collects frequesnt questions and answers that the community wants to know to help people make up their minds on the KS.
How much do you really know about any game until you play it live? Most of us had no clue how WAR played in tier 4 until the game was released and we got high enough level to see for ourselves weeks or months after release. From what we saw in beta in tier 1, it looked like a great game.
Obviously funding the kickstarter isn't for everyone. But there's no requirement that you give him $1000 either. For many of us who loved DAOC, it's now 12 years later. We have jobs. We can afford to give $5, $25, or even more to make CU become a reality. It may turn out to be money wasted but so was the $60 I spent on the vanilla WOW box I set aside after playing 2 weeks. Big deal. The amount I invest in CU is not going to break my finances.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Yeah noone is obligated to toss up $1000 just to become a backer. I am sure if someone wanted to they could but it defintely isn't mandatory. I am a backer for Grim Dawn and Path of EXile. Between the 2 I donated a total of 85 bucks.
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Some of the best words I've read on these forums to date.
The fact is, there is absolutely no innovation mentioned about this game at all. It's a clone. And instead of /20, there will be /maxlevel. BOOM! POW! You can RVR day 1. The whole idea of removing PVE is simply stupid. PVE is where people meet. PVE is where people have silly conversations while grinding. PVE is where guilds are created, social networks are established, crafter get their clients, and where realms are brought together.
RVR is definitely the fun side. But it is also the dark side. RVR is where elitism was created. RVR is where 3rd party programs were used to get ahead (RADAR!). RVR is where people would join someone's vent server to complain about another guild adding on their fight and they win. RVR is where alliances are broken not made. RVR is where people spam LFG for hours, get ganked 1v8, lose stick from the zerg and struggle to catch up, are the first to die and last to get rezzed, don't use main assists, break CC, stealth zerg, and hump portal keeps.
A solid RVR game needs PVE for balance.
I am all for old school types of games being made, but I will not be funding this. Mark Jacobs could have at least spent SOME time developing a prototype before asking for money. There are Indie developers out there that actually have spent time developing a game before going to Kickstarter asking for money. I know he said he's going to sink a metric ton of his own money into this AFTER kickstarter funding, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
Everyone is getting so excited for concept. I can't even understand why MMORPG.com has this game listed as "In Development" and even allowed on the hype meter.
I'm not hating on this game and want it to be made for those who are really excited for a DAoC the 2nd, I just don't like how a MAJOR developer/designer who has had incredible success in the gaming world can't even make up a prototype to show something off before asking for millions on Kickstarter.
Waiting on: The Repopulation
Personally I don't like PvE I never have, all I want to do is RvR/PvP. A game where I don't have to PvE to grind gear for RvR is perfect for me. Why do you care how other people want to play? Why does it make you so angry, you just come off bitter.
I think my biggest problem with idea of a 40% fan funded game, is that you aren't creating anything truly original. A post-apocalytic Camelot is still Camelot, the foundation for DAoC. The realm descriptions even sound very dark age-ish. Build something proprietary with innovation and creativity.
By your own words, the game appears to be a version of Frontiers with little or no PVE. If you're trying to build an open world MOBA based off of the three realm system you previously established in DAoC, just say so. You can alienate your mmo supporters now and they won't feel cheated later.
And, by the way, if you're going to cut the leg of PVE off this horse, your game is going to struggle.
LOL no one really likes PVE. And where have I mentioned that care about your opinion? I'm simply stating facts. If you eliminate the PVE, the game is no longer a MMO its a MOBA. And there are plenty of MOBA's out there right now that F2P. So asking for subs for another one will be ridiculous. In addition, EA has a Warhammer 3 realm MOBA already in place. Is this game going to surpass simply because "Camelot" is in the title?
That's a complete utopian view of what PvE is in MMOs. People meet in PvP just like they meet in PvE. If you need a group for it, you meet people. The fact that you are fighting AIs or other players doesn't matter. PvE is not this holy grail of MMOs. If you like PvE then yea you'll find your guild there. If you PvP all day, you'll find your friends in a battleground. It's not like PvPers wander around without guilds or companions because they don't PvE.
And the RvR creating elitism? What's the number of elite PvE guilds vs. PvP guilds? Google Death and Taxes or any other elite and standoffish guild. Any guild that is half-proficient in raids will have rules that could easily be consider elitist; 1) You need Gear 2) You have to show up reguarly 3) Know the encounters, etc etc. Activities that require time and can exclude others. A good pvp group will have the same. Look at DKP. It's a PvE system created to benefit those who put in the most time, skill, etc over casuals. Elitist?
Did someone corpse camp you or something when you were a child?
So, what's the potential profit? What's the risk? Where are my company reports and project outline? What about the estimated release date? Someone call my secretary.
Can I see your past work portfolio Mr. Jacobs? Oh, wow. I see you were lead designer and CEO of Mythic for Dark ages of Camelot. Very good. Whoa... Whoa, wait a second here. You were responsible for Warhammer online?!
I see. We'll call you about our potential investment. Don't call us.
Ah, the naive thought of thinking kickstarter will change the industry. There will always be big budgets that get it right, big budgets that fail, indies that get it right, indies that fail. No gaurantee you will like CU if it gets made. Translating paper to game can fail just as easily, in fact even more easily, for a small budget game.
Yes, you have the uninspired games like SWTOR and Rift sticking too closely to WoW. But you also have GW2 and TSW whch do anything but try to be WoW. There is very lttle wrong with either TSW or GW2, they both got it right by trying to create something new from the ground up. You dont like either? Thats not the developer's fault. The "change" has already happened. Sure, some will still try to chase WoW but studios have been trying to break the mold. Look at the two major and the two minor releases from last year. A game without holy trinity and devalued gear progression, a game that was neither fantasy nor sci fi and didnt have traditional levels, a game with a more action oriented combat system, and a MMOFPS. Four games and only one was WoW-like, and that game had a very un-WoW combat system.
And the game that was WoW-like? Wasnt the game from Funcom, NCSoft, or SoE. Nope, it was the one of the four from an inde dev.
Obviously, you didn't play DAoC at all. Examples: your elite guild mentions are from WoW, "corpse camp" I can only assume that is also from WoW, and I never even heard of DKP until after I left the DAoC scene. Probably because you didn't have guilds with 200 members fighting over gear.
So let's step away from your experiences in other games that aren't applicable. OK? In DAoC (and most games tbh), PVE is where people met when they began the game. For example, in midgard, Vendo Caverns was a staple. Everyone went there at some point. Before the bot craze, you typically needed help. You could spend 1-10 hours with a few people just grinding away levels. It was tedious to earn the xp but you were with other peole. You could "lol" in chat and share experiences. THAT's what builds friendships in games, shared experiences... common bonds.
My friend, in WoW you didn't experience the 8 man guilds that logged on at the same time, spoke to no one, shared no intelligence, and wouldn't dare help fellow realmmates or defend anything.
I am assisting in the funding of the game because I enjoyed the past work of Mark, feel this game brings to me something I have been wanting for awhile now, and the idea of backing such a niche project appeals to me.
However, I do want to go on record that I don't feel the High Fantasy genre makes the game easier to produce over a Sci-Fi (or other setting) setting in the suspension of disbelief category. Personally, I would have backed this even more if it had been given a Cyberpunk style setting (or Shadowrun style setting if you really need your High Fantasy as well.) as the war of the Corporations, Anarchs, Governments, etc would have been more unique and intriguing. Having the RvR, Crafting, Housing, etc explained via your story to me isn't a hard job if your writer is talented enough no matter the setting. I will still play the game and have fun otherwise though as a Viking! :-p
Bear "replicant" Powell
"I am Shaolin-Style!"
Do you even know what the A in MOBA stands for? Let me help you: arena. There isn't anything about CU that is comparable to a MOBA's instanced arenas. The world will be non-instanced and persistent just like DAOC's and WAR's frontiers. I'm baffled why people keep trying to call CU a MOBA just because you don't have to kill 1,000,000 NPCs to level to 50 before you go RvR.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Well for starters, DKP was developed during EQ (2 years before DAoC?) and i believe and I first saw Corpse camping in SWG. We actually used to randsom Jedis while they were incapacitaed. There were 'elite' guilds in EQ, but I'll admit my first experience in one was with WoW, and there it was the same thing. People logged on at 7:55, raided for 5 hours, logged off. Same thing in Rift. I wouldn't write off the last 10 years of MMOs as irrelavent, as they are proving that your thesis of "PvE is good, PvP is bad for friends" is unsupported besides perhaps a single annecdote.
My point is that there is nothing intrinsically special about PvE vs. PvP for developing groups and relationships in an MMO. It's more about how the developers design the system. If the Devs make it so everyone needs to gang up and defeat a PvE dungeon, while 8 guys can roam RvR by themselves without an incentive to group, then yea that may happen. But if the Devs make (like I hope CU will be) a system where large PvP groups are rewarded for getting together and melting faces and working together then the I don't see how that isn't social. What builds comradery is working or struggling for a common goal, and it doesn't matter if that common goal is leveling up in a dungeon or destroying a player held tower.
I will be supporting this myself, i really like what the guy is saying.. every blog he posts up seems to hit the nail on the head for me..
Just like he says this game will not be foreveryone... some people hate PVP and you know what thats fine this game just wont be for them.. just like WOW, GW2, Rifts or whatever are not for me.
Plus the MMO industry needs some new blood pumped into it.
No pain no gain after all
If we don't support it'll never see the light.
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I'm interested to see if such a niche game can meet its benchmark on funding. Even if it just barely scrapes by, that does not bode well for its ability to make money. I think the fund drive needs to be a huge success to prove once and for all that even a severley niche game can make a decent profit. Maybe then, other developers will step forward with their niche ideas and start moving the genre forward.
I won't be helping as PvP is not my niche, but I have my fingers crossed for you guys so that it may lead to my niche being brought forward in the future (PVE only, casual, sandpark, no raids, huge virtual world for exploration).
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."