What the OP said is the same reason myself and many others are not backing this game as well. Mark did DAoC well and that was it. I was there in the WAR beta far too long and while Mark might enjoy pawning off a great deal of failure from that game on EA. The beta forums tell a different story and so amny mistakes were made during the development. Most importantly a lot of promises were made and patch after patch they were taken away. So when he announces yet another RvR focused game, but then tried to go RvR only with no innovations on how or why that would work. Well the numbers speak for themselves. Especially the number of people who are actually backing the kickstarter, not even 10,000 yet and the numbers have been very stagnant since the first few days. Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.
"Another RvR focused game with no innovations"... really? I can't tell if you're just trolling or not paying any attention to their updates. They are innovating in a lot of big ways, the building system being one of the big ones. The building system he just talked about in a recent update is a huge reason the RvR will be meaningful and the experience will not always be the same. If this isn't innovation, I don't know what is. And I won't even talk about The Depths, because that speaks for itself. If you're not into the idea of CU, that's fine.. but don't try to say they aren't innovating at all.
I play most MMO's and even played DAOC back in the day and really enjoyed it, however I am not backing this project. It seems to me when your going so niche by being PvP only and with a limited class selection it's just not appealing compared to what else is out there.
Perhaps it's somewhat because I (and my friends) are burned out on GW2 world vrs world. The thought of just WvW (or RvR as they call it) 24/7 would be mind numbing.
Had they said 18 classes, 3 realms, PvE zones to fight over, raids, maybe even the ability for user created content, it would have a better chance. Yes I understand they keeping their ambitions small and focused (class wise and gameplay wise) but what's the point if you cant make the game anyway? Why not go big? I enjoy PvP but man everyone needs some variety.
I think it's going to take a game that is very well rounded to rise to the top of the MMO world in the future. It would have all those things and more, maybe not done amazingly well at the beginning but at least the prospect of it.
I will say GL to MJ though but again, not throwing a bone to the PvE people or including anything new and revolutionary gameplay wise is a decision I would not have made.
Finally, a negative thread that is not a complete troll! Thank you for restoring some faith in humanity!
I'd say your concerns are entirely legitimate. My only comment would be (I know it's getting tired) this might not be the game for you. MJ has made clear, over and over and over again, the game will be for a NICHE RVR MARKET. He is not concerned with "rising to the top of the MMO world." Again, this has been made very, very clear many, many, many times.
I may be misinterpretting your post, but it seems to me you are not a huge RvR fan.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
I loved DAOC, started at the beginning and got several toons to 50. Also loved the RvR. ToA basically killed it for me, I don't like 8-hour controlled raids, day after day.
Making the game PvP only is like going to get a steak dinner, and being told you cannot get any sides with it. Sure, I like steak, but I'd like to have a salad, potato, and a dessert with that, along with something nice to drink.
I greatly enjoyed the PvE in DAOC, enjoyed the crafting, enjoyed creating many alts to try out all the different classes, or even alts WITHIN the same class. Matter Cabalist plays different than the Spirit Cabalist.
I wish the game and team the best of luck, but I won't contribute anything until the game is released, with good reviews.
This is a good discription of some concerns of mine +1
I liked the SI raids, they should have been shorter, but they wern't necessary at all unless you enjoyed it or were min maxing a hybrid template out.
Dragon raids were awesome, having a whole land where you could level and grow through and then venturing into RvR was a beautiful system for everyone except the even more "niche" people who want to invade other realms and loot corpses ( think that type of system is a complete failure for mmo )
I can live with just PVP and if the combat system is good I will enjoy it, but I don't have nearly enough information about it, and how spec / skill lines within classes are going to be? I'm sure they're saving all that stuff for the end of the kickstarter, but I hope its good else off to pray ESO won't suck.
Well, you can't really go under zero when taking about chances. But i'll take it as if you said there is not a chance in a million.
So how can i tell you we are pretty sure to have what we are expecting? I think i can't speak for everyone, as some may effectively not get what they expect, but as for myself, i read and have taken note of every foundational principle and KS update. I therefore know the general boon and bane of the concept.
Now the only thing you may ask are details. On that point, i will first advise you to wait the next update that'll come later this week, and we should have a lot of info about the actual RvR. Secondly, i'll tell you than most details that you couldn't find are lacking because they will be discussed in the backers' forum and so will largely be influenced by the future players.
So unless you have really different tastes than most of the other players, i think you'll like how most of those details will turn out. Of course, there will be some thing you won't like because only a small part of us don't like it and the majority win, but it would be unlikely to always be on that side.
Originally posted by LateBrake1I play most MMO's and even played DAOC back in the day and really enjoyed it, however I am not backing this project. It seems to me when your going so niche by being PvP only and with a limited class selection it's just not appealing compared to what else is out there.Perhaps it's somewhat because I (and my friends) are burned out on GW2 world vrs world. The thought of just WvW (or RvR as they call it) 24/7 would be mind numbing.Had they said 18 classes, 3 realms, PvE zones to fight over, raids, maybe even the ability for user created content, it would have a better chance. Yes I understand they keeping their ambitions small and focused (class wise and gameplay wise) but what's the point if you cant make the game anyway? Why not go big? I enjoy PvP but man everyone needs some variety.I think it's going to take a game that is very well rounded to rise to the top of the MMO world in the future. It would have all those things and more, maybe not done amazingly well at the beginning but at least the prospect of it.I will say GL to MJ though but again, not throwing a bone to the PvE people or including anything new and revolutionary gameplay wise is a decision I would not have made.
Re-defined building system Re-defined Crafter Class Re-defined Stealth Class Re-defined Tank Class for PVP Re-defined Open World Dungeon Re-defined PVE PVP Focus (never been done well_ Player Economy (not see in ages) Kickstarted (haven't ever seen an MMO of this type take this route)
If it funds, that alone will change the way companies look at getting an MMO going. I don't see how it isn't revolutionary.
Originally posted on kickstarter
Camelot Unchained is a counter-revolutionary RvR-focused MMORPG from Mark Jacobs and CSE set in a post-apocalyptic yet familiar world.
Since it is nothing but a list of idea's at this point, it has actually only done one of the things you listed, which is being kickstarted
/Thread
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
im not funding this because so far it's been nothing but hot air and the dude already destroyed one game. to the OP, me and my buddies have around 700-800 hours in WvW already and we're having a blast. youre probably doing something wrong like humping your zerg, instead of gaining better skills and developing a feared reputation for your guild.
Your post is all over the place in terms of logic and reasoning. You first state you understand it is going for a niche audience, then later state it needs to appeal to more people and "go big" and discusses a "rise to the top of the MMO world." So do you understand it is niche or not? I am beginning to think not.
"Niche" means it is not for most people, and clearly you are one of those; that is fine - you are one of the lucky ones who enjoys the current MMORPG offerings and what is on the horizon, it would seem. I am not so lucky.
Also, as for nothing revolutionary, I would say there at least two systems in place that can fairly be called "revolutionary." The first is the UI, which is going to be built on HTML and JavaScript so it can be composed of the Web and the Web can be composed of it. That is cool. Secondly, and more importantly, the building system is going to be done in the vein of Minecraft. What MMORPG has attempted something like that? Completely new to the genre.
The Depths is also pretty revolutionary, too, come to think of it. And the resources system as well.
In short, it is a niche game, most will prefer playing something more mainstream, but it does have lots of revolutionary features.
When did you start playing MMO's?
I ask this because both of the 'revolutionary' aspects that you describe have been done in other MMO's. Do some research next time.
The OP's post was consistant throughout. Only your brain is all over the place.
It's a PvP game. It's going to be liked by a VERY small audience. The fact that it has nothing more than PvP and crafting is going to do the same thing that all other themeparks do. It will be popular for a few months and then fizzle out due to lack of substance.
I never root for a game to fail though. So hopefully it will get an audience, as small as it may be, and bring hours of happiness to people.
Originally posted by umie214 im not funding this because so far it's been nothing but hot air and the dude already destroyed one game. to the OP, me and my buddies have around 700-800 hours in WvW already and we're having a blast. youre probably doing something wrong like humping your zerg, instead of gaining better skills and developing a feared reputation for your guild.
Some people, believe it or not, get tired of the same mindless actions repeated for days, months, and even years. While I loved some DAoC RvR, it was the depth of the world, PvE and social aspects of some of my favorite games that actually kept me coming back. PvP is just a cheap trick to me.
If i want to relax and just pve a little I'll play dragon age or mass effect which offer far better pve than any mmo. Every game doesn't have to cater to every play style. Folks complaining about no pve would be like me complaining about a lack of fighting in tetris. They've stated no pve in this game. If that doesn't appeal to you fine, move along. Clearly this game is not for you. I don't understand the complaining from people this game is obviously not meant for. It's one thing to have a disagreement about classes, mechanics, races, etc. But when your arguing against a clearly stated core design idea it seems rather pointless and just hating.
Originally posted by Cinc If i want to relax and just pve a little I'll play dragon age or mass effect which offer far better pve than any mmo. Every game doesn't have to cater to every play style. Folks complaining about no pve would be like me complaining about a lack of fighting in tetris. They've stated no pve in this game. If that doesn't appeal to you fine, move along. Clearly this game is not for you. I don't understand the complaining from people this game is obviously not meant for. It's one thing to have a disagreement about classes, mechanics, races, etc. But when your arguing against a clearly stated core design idea it seems rather pointless and just hating.
thats the issue though here , people say they are not going to pledge because they do not have pve yet about 90% of the population of backers have something slick to say to people who do not like the idea and do not want to fund it. Im also one of those people that has money but am not going to pledge money to a game that I know I wont be playing past the first month. I enjoy pve , raiding , and general realm vs realm . So I get one of the 3 and people expect you here to jump for joy , thats just not going to happen. Then you also have the people here that like to guilt trip you into pledging your hard earned money because this is "your way to stick it to the big time publishers like EA and activision" . Either way you spend your money on a game you wont be playing for a long period of time and you still lose your money pledging it to a project that just doenst interest you and will not benefit you in any long term. Obviously there is a lot more people not interested anyways because its 9 days to go and 60% of its goal complete only. This game wont fund for 2 million , it would have if he would of actually attempted to make a DAOC 2 and not half asses 60% of what made DAOC fun for all not just the pvp hardcore crowd.
Some people, believe it or not, get tired of the same mindless actions repeated for days, months, and even years. While I loved some DAoC RvR, it was the depth of the world, PvE and social aspects of some of my favorite games that actually kept me coming back. PvP is just a cheap trick to me.
I completely understand this perspective and it's one of the reasons I did not back CU. That being said however, I do think there is a place in the market for this game. I really do hope it gets funded. Once again to me its all about options and having another MMO that does something a little bit different isn't a bad thing. Its just not something I'm asking for.
Originally posted by Cinc If i want to relax and just pve a little I'll play dragon age or mass effect which offer far better pve than any mmo. Every game doesn't have to cater to every play style. Folks complaining about no pve would be like me complaining about a lack of fighting in tetris. They've stated no pve in this game. If that doesn't appeal to you fine, move along. Clearly this game is not for you. I don't understand the complaining from people this game is obviously not meant for. It's one thing to have a disagreement about classes, mechanics, races, etc. But when your arguing against a clearly stated core design idea it seems rather pointless and just hating.
thats the issue though here , people say they are not going to pledge because they do not have pve yet about 90% of the population of backers have something slick to say to people who do not like the idea and do not want to fund it. Im also one of those people that has money but am not going to pledge money to a game that I know I wont be playing past the first month. I enjoy pve , raiding , and general realm vs realm . So I get one of the 3 and people expect you here to jump for joy , thats just not going to happen. Then you also have the people here that like to guilt trip you into pledging your hard earned money because this is "your way to stick it to the big time publishers like EA and activision" . Either way you spend your money on a game you wont be playing for a long period of time and you still lose your money pledging it to a project that just doenst interest you and will not benefit you in any long term. Obviously there is a lot more people not interested anyways because its 9 days to go and 60% of its goal complete only. This game wont fund for 2 million , it would have if he would of actually attempted to make a DAOC 2 and not half asses 60% of what made DAOC fun for all not just the pvp hardcore crowd.
I get you're not going to help get this game off the ground. So why are you even here discussing a game you have no interest in? They are not making DAOC 2, Mark has stated that numerous times, why complain about something you know is not going to happen?
It is like any addiction, once taken, you want more. And it never ends. The current course of MMO’s is leading down the path of handing the player everything on a silver platter. And if you follow this to its end there will be a game you can buy and install hit play and it does it all for you. You just sit back and chat with your friends as the computer plays for you.
Thankfully I saw the light and am trying to get off this train.
The bright lights and happy music coming from the circus (current Themepark MMO’s) is just to alluring for some people. And they are happy following the other lemmings off the cliff.
Let’s just hope enough people realize the current failings of the “just play and we will give you the world” track is doomed to fail and the industry can be saved.
This is from a guy on the Kickstarter. "It's amazing how people can spend 10-15 bucks going to the movies. A movie that they have no idea what it's about, or very limited knowledge (plot lines etc.). And the movie will last about 2 hours. But pledging 25 bucks to a game that has all this information they flat out refuse."
That movie will have multiple trailers, reviews, interviews and is guaranteed to exist as a consumable product. CU on the other hand is a vague concept from someone with a checkered past, who is reluctant to put his own money on the line and that even if funded may end up vaporware. Pretty HUGE difference.
It is like any addiction, once taken, you want more. And it never ends. The current course of MMO’s is leading down the path of handing the player everything on a silver platter. And if you follow this to its end there will be a game you can buy and install hit play and it does it all for you. You just sit back and chat with your friends as the computer plays for you.
Thankfully I saw the light and am trying to get off this train.
The bright lights and happy music coming from the circus (current Themepark MMO’s) is just to alluring for some people. And they are happy following the other lemmings off the cliff.
Let’s just hope enough people realize the current failings of the “just play and we will give you the world” track is doomed to fail and the industry can be saved.
Well said. I am self aware of my own addiction enough to weigh whether my time is being spent actually having a good time or not. For me, after playing years of WoW and other MMO's leveling and gearing up my toons, I've come to realize that this grind is completely boring and pointless. PvP on the other hand still excites me. I suppose it allows me to express my competitive side. The rush I got from DAoC I also got in Warhammer and GW2, and I consider those games the best PvP (WvW/RvR style PvP) games ever. Of course, every game gets old. GW2, although I love most aspects of the combat system itself, has a piss poor progression system and devs who do not understand small group PvP. Warhammer's gear grind was fun for a bit, but soon got old due to the constant zerg style of RvR. DAoC, even though it is my favorite game of all time, just feels like a step up from Pacman these days.
For me supporting CU is a no brainer. It is about time that a group of developers who actually play and study PvP games (CU's devs are hardcore LoL, GW2, and DAoC players), make a PvP game for PvP'ers.
This is from a guy on the Kickstarter. "It's amazing how people can spend 10-15 bucks going to the movies. A movie that they have no idea what it's about, or very limited knowledge (plot lines etc.). And the movie will last about 2 hours. But pledging 25 bucks to a game that has all this information they flat out refuse."
That movie will have multiple trailers, reviews, interviews and is guaranteed to exist as a consumable product. CU on the other hand is a vague concept from someone with a checkered past, who is reluctant to put his own money on the line and that even if funded may end up vaporware. Pretty HUGE difference.
Yes, there is some blind faith that has to go into this Kickstarter. However, MJ is not reluctant to put in his own money. He will be matching the Kickstarter funds with his personal cash if it funds. If the kickstarter doesn't funds, to the developer that means that there isn't enough interest in the game and therefore not financially a sound idea.
The game is not for everyone he has said that himself... it is a niche PVP game.. if your not into that kind of thing then fair enough..
There are enough new things thngs this game is bringing to the table and the fact that its main focus is PVP i am happy to back it, but i want that type of game i am bored of all the AAA themepark clones they bore the hell out of me..
Now there is a kickstarter sticky thread that this should have been added to and im sure i mod will close this off.
Why would they close this thread? Its a perfectly legit, non-troll topic. I don't understand some fans wanting to cut off all negative discussions regarding a game they like. I'm seeing more and more of this from CU fans.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Comments
"Another RvR focused game with no innovations"... really? I can't tell if you're just trolling or not paying any attention to their updates. They are innovating in a lot of big ways, the building system being one of the big ones. The building system he just talked about in a recent update is a huge reason the RvR will be meaningful and the experience will not always be the same. If this isn't innovation, I don't know what is. And I won't even talk about The Depths, because that speaks for itself. If you're not into the idea of CU, that's fine.. but don't try to say they aren't innovating at all.
Finally, a negative thread that is not a complete troll! Thank you for restoring some faith in humanity!
I'd say your concerns are entirely legitimate. My only comment would be (I know it's getting tired) this might not be the game for you. MJ has made clear, over and over and over again, the game will be for a NICHE RVR MARKET. He is not concerned with "rising to the top of the MMO world." Again, this has been made very, very clear many, many, many times.
I may be misinterpretting your post, but it seems to me you are not a huge RvR fan.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
This is a good discription of some concerns of mine +1
I liked the SI raids, they should have been shorter, but they wern't necessary at all unless you enjoyed it or were min maxing a hybrid template out.
Dragon raids were awesome, having a whole land where you could level and grow through and then venturing into RvR was a beautiful system for everyone except the even more "niche" people who want to invade other realms and loot corpses ( think that type of system is a complete failure for mmo )
I can live with just PVP and if the combat system is good I will enjoy it, but I don't have nearly enough information about it, and how spec / skill lines within classes are going to be? I'm sure they're saving all that stuff for the end of the kickstarter, but I hope its good else off to pray ESO won't suck.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Well, you can't really go under zero when taking about chances. But i'll take it as if you said there is not a chance in a million.
So how can i tell you we are pretty sure to have what we are expecting? I think i can't speak for everyone, as some may effectively not get what they expect, but as for myself, i read and have taken note of every foundational principle and KS update. I therefore know the general boon and bane of the concept.
Now the only thing you may ask are details. On that point, i will first advise you to wait the next update that'll come later this week, and we should have a lot of info about the actual RvR. Secondly, i'll tell you than most details that you couldn't find are lacking because they will be discussed in the backers' forum and so will largely be influenced by the future players.
So unless you have really different tastes than most of the other players, i think you'll like how most of those details will turn out. Of course, there will be some thing you won't like because only a small part of us don't like it and the majority win, but it would be unlikely to always be on that side.
Since it is nothing but a list of idea's at this point, it has actually only done one of the things you listed, which is being kickstarted
/Thread
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Question for everyone ...
If this funds and they start building ...
And then EA sells mythic and they start to design DAOC 2, what happens to population of CU?
I can dream.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Do not forget the in-game shop (EA). Then what happens?
Marc Jacobs wasn't in charge of warhammer. Jeff hickman was.
Jacobs admitted that he was in charge but didnt take enough control of the project.
What reputation for your guild?
You kill someone in WvW, all they see in their log is random nameless dude x from that server we happen to be paired with this week.
When did you start playing MMO's?
I ask this because both of the 'revolutionary' aspects that you describe have been done in other MMO's. Do some research next time.
The OP's post was consistant throughout. Only your brain is all over the place.
It's a PvP game. It's going to be liked by a VERY small audience. The fact that it has nothing more than PvP and crafting is going to do the same thing that all other themeparks do. It will be popular for a few months and then fizzle out due to lack of substance.
I never root for a game to fail though. So hopefully it will get an audience, as small as it may be, and bring hours of happiness to people.
Some people, believe it or not, get tired of the same mindless actions repeated for days, months, and even years. While I loved some DAoC RvR, it was the depth of the world, PvE and social aspects of some of my favorite games that actually kept me coming back. PvP is just a cheap trick to me.
Sad but true.
thats the issue though here , people say they are not going to pledge because they do not have pve yet about 90% of the population of backers have something slick to say to people who do not like the idea and do not want to fund it. Im also one of those people that has money but am not going to pledge money to a game that I know I wont be playing past the first month. I enjoy pve , raiding , and general realm vs realm . So I get one of the 3 and people expect you here to jump for joy , thats just not going to happen. Then you also have the people here that like to guilt trip you into pledging your hard earned money because this is "your way to stick it to the big time publishers like EA and activision" . Either way you spend your money on a game you wont be playing for a long period of time and you still lose your money pledging it to a project that just doenst interest you and will not benefit you in any long term. Obviously there is a lot more people not interested anyways because its 9 days to go and 60% of its goal complete only. This game wont fund for 2 million , it would have if he would of actually attempted to make a DAOC 2 and not half asses 60% of what made DAOC fun for all not just the pvp hardcore crowd.
Hang on a second?!
This game most surely has PvE its just that you don't advance your character by it.
So am I understanding that some of you only accept PvE as a feature when it advances your character?
Isn't that some other way of saying the game is stupid because you'll be bad at it?
Or because it will be too hard?
I completely understand this perspective and it's one of the reasons I did not back CU. That being said however, I do think there is a place in the market for this game. I really do hope it gets funded. Once again to me its all about options and having another MMO that does something a little bit different isn't a bad thing. Its just not something I'm asking for.
thats the issue though here , people say they are not going to pledge because they do not have pve yet about 90% of the population of backers have something slick to say to people who do not like the idea and do not want to fund it. Im also one of those people that has money but am not going to pledge money to a game that I know I wont be playing past the first month. I enjoy pve , raiding , and general realm vs realm . So I get one of the 3 and people expect you here to jump for joy , thats just not going to happen. Then you also have the people here that like to guilt trip you into pledging your hard earned money because this is "your way to stick it to the big time publishers like EA and activision" . Either way you spend your money on a game you wont be playing for a long period of time and you still lose your money pledging it to a project that just doenst interest you and will not benefit you in any long term. Obviously there is a lot more people not interested anyways because its 9 days to go and 60% of its goal complete only. This game wont fund for 2 million , it would have if he would of actually attempted to make a DAOC 2 and not half asses 60% of what made DAOC fun for all not just the pvp hardcore crowd.
I get you're not going to help get this game off the ground. So why are you even here discussing a game you have no interest in? They are not making DAOC 2, Mark has stated that numerous times, why complain about something you know is not going to happen?It is like any addiction, once taken, you want more. And it never ends. The current course of MMO’s is leading down the path of handing the player everything on a silver platter. And if you follow this to its end there will be a game you can buy and install hit play and it does it all for you. You just sit back and chat with your friends as the computer plays for you.
Thankfully I saw the light and am trying to get off this train.
The bright lights and happy music coming from the circus (current Themepark MMO’s) is just to alluring for some people. And they are happy following the other lemmings off the cliff.
Let’s just hope enough people realize the current failings of the “just play and we will give you the world” track is doomed to fail and the industry can be saved.
Nanulak
That movie will have multiple trailers, reviews, interviews and is guaranteed to exist as a consumable product. CU on the other hand is a vague concept from someone with a checkered past, who is reluctant to put his own money on the line and that even if funded may end up vaporware. Pretty HUGE difference.
Well said. I am self aware of my own addiction enough to weigh whether my time is being spent actually having a good time or not. For me, after playing years of WoW and other MMO's leveling and gearing up my toons, I've come to realize that this grind is completely boring and pointless. PvP on the other hand still excites me. I suppose it allows me to express my competitive side. The rush I got from DAoC I also got in Warhammer and GW2, and I consider those games the best PvP (WvW/RvR style PvP) games ever. Of course, every game gets old. GW2, although I love most aspects of the combat system itself, has a piss poor progression system and devs who do not understand small group PvP. Warhammer's gear grind was fun for a bit, but soon got old due to the constant zerg style of RvR. DAoC, even though it is my favorite game of all time, just feels like a step up from Pacman these days.
For me supporting CU is a no brainer. It is about time that a group of developers who actually play and study PvP games (CU's devs are hardcore LoL, GW2, and DAoC players), make a PvP game for PvP'ers.
http://teamriot.org
Yes, there is some blind faith that has to go into this Kickstarter. However, MJ is not reluctant to put in his own money. He will be matching the Kickstarter funds with his personal cash if it funds. If the kickstarter doesn't funds, to the developer that means that there isn't enough interest in the game and therefore not financially a sound idea.
http://teamriot.org
Why would they close this thread? Its a perfectly legit, non-troll topic. I don't understand some fans wanting to cut off all negative discussions regarding a game they like. I'm seeing more and more of this from CU fans.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.