And all this equals low populations and minimal funding. I agree with you, but you need to be realistic. I would say, look at EVE-Online, but not in it's current state. The first 5 yrs of that game were a great balance of PVE and PVP where PVE was mostly to support PVP, but that balance is gone now and it's a shell of what it once was and has been in decline population wise, since.
I'm not exactly sure chain running DED complexes where swarms of mindless enemies thrash your ship for 20-30 mins while not doing any damage, not running away, and letting you massacre them 1 by 1 is really quality PVE content.
Or chain running L4's where you do the same 4-5 quests over and over again where swarms of mindless enemies thrash your ship for 20-30 mins while not doing any damage, not running away, and letting you massacre them 1 by 1.
Or scanning down anomalies where swarms of mindless enemies thrash your ship for 20-30 mins while not doing any damage, not running away, and letting you massacre them 1 by 1.
/boggle Its like Warhammer, Age Of Reckoning never happened. Without PvE, it really is just Planetfall with Spells and Swords. I played DAOC for two or three years and barely did any RvR. I was quite happy to putter around the zones, explore, and fight challenging bosses. I recognize that coding PvE takes a LOT of resources, but I don't know too many games that are PvP focused with essentially no PvE, outside of the MOBAs and Eve Online. Doesn't Eve have PvE pirates to fight?
Ironically, CU can end with even better PvE than what WAR had, simply due to bit lower ambitions (and many interesting ideas) in it.
PS people that enjoyed WAR (the ones that dare speaking about it publicly) ALWAYS put flameshields type of "no matter that this or that sucked..." intro Best game ever! We will certainly have some aspects of it in CU (the more the merrier IMO).
For example based on Mark's comments we will have (new and improved) living guild system of WAR. For anyone that forgot about it, here is a reminder (scroll down to the "Living guilds" section) - http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Guild
What I see is with ONLY PvP aspect is that most players will want to log on maybe 2-3 hours a day and IF battles are looking in their favor stick around for that 2-3 hour block. But going all day on the weekends as many do in other games I don't see happening here. After all who wants to relive the same fight again and again for 8+ consecutive hours or so and keep doing it again and again. Plus during the weekdays you'll have the small crowd of jobless or retired players, you'll have people from many different timezones including those on the opposite side of the world then the US... what are those players supposed to do during the down battle time? Have small 15vs15vs15 skirmishes? Or more then likely 1 zerg out and everyone else is just fodder? It may work now as the servers are only up for X amount of hours now and then but a daily routine....
I just see the lack of a PvE side even a more minor PvE side being a killer for the game to last.
Further think back to DAoC, was there really much of a RvR community? There were always a handful of names on every side every major RvRer knew but most were just random names and no community or social aspect in that. The community and social aspect happened on the PvE side of the game because people had to work together instead of just following the zerg hoping to get their own.
What I see is with ONLY PvP aspect is that most players will want to log on maybe 2-3 hours a day and IF battles are looking in their favor stick around for that 2-3 hour block. But going all day on the weekends as many do in other games I don't see happening here. After all who wants to relive the same fight again and again for 8+ consecutive hours or so and keep doing it again and again. Plus during the weekdays you'll have the small crowd of jobless or retired players, you'll have people from many different timezones including those on the opposite side of the world then the US... what are those players supposed to do during the down battle time? Have small 15vs15vs15 skirmishes? Or more then likely 1 zerg out and everyone else is just fodder? It may work now as the servers are only up for X amount of hours now and then but a daily routine....
I just see the lack of a PvE side even a more minor PvE side being a killer for the game to last.
Further think back to DAoC, was there really much of a RvR community? There were always a handful of names on every side every major RvRer knew but most were just random names and no community or social aspect in that. The community and social aspect happened on the PvE side of the game because people had to work together instead of just following the zerg hoping to get their own.
I know its hard to understand for some people, but there are those of us for which the thought of battling in pvp for 8+ consecutive hours is a dream come true, and who would rather turn the game off and do something else than trudge through pve content.
Without having to worry about pve balance and progression it will be a lot easier to deliver a kick ass pvp experience imo. That said there is some pve in there, but from what I read it will be intrinsically tied to the pvp and only have meaning in terms of how it adds to the pvp game.
What I see is with ONLY PvP aspect is that most players will want to log on maybe 2-3 hours a day and IF battles are looking in their favor stick around for that 2-3 hour block. But going all day on the weekends as many do in other games I don't see happening here. After all who wants to relive the same fight again and again for 8+ consecutive hours or so and keep doing it again and again. Plus during the weekdays you'll have the small crowd of jobless or retired players, you'll have people from many different timezones including those on the opposite side of the world then the US... what are those players supposed to do during the down battle time? Have small 15vs15vs15 skirmishes? Or more then likely 1 zerg out and everyone else is just fodder? It may work now as the servers are only up for X amount of hours now and then but a daily routine....
I just see the lack of a PvE side even a more minor PvE side being a killer for the game to last.
Further think back to DAoC, was there really much of a RvR community? There were always a handful of names on every side every major RvRer knew but most were just random names and no community or social aspect in that. The community and social aspect happened on the PvE side of the game because people had to work together instead of just following the zerg hoping to get their own.
I know its hard to understand for some people, but there are those of us for which the thought of battling in pvp for 8+ consecutive hours is a dream come true, and who would rather turn the game off and do something else than trudge through pve content.
Without having to worry about pve balance and progression it will be a lot easier to deliver a kick ass pvp experience imo. That said there is some pve in there, but from what I read it will be intrinsically tied to the pvp and only have meaning in terms of how it adds to the pvp game.
Perhaps but those numbers will not fund this game like PVE games are funded. Battles are fun until the next game with battles comes out. Then no one plays the older ones much after that. PVE MMORPGs...good ones can keep people around for years. people who buy stuff in the cash shops or buy subs or both.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Personally I'd have no interest in a MMO that has little PVE.....If its just "lets throw a few mobs in for the PVErs then no thanks.....Also if I want PVP all the time I'd just go play a MOBA.
There is no feeling like being in the middle of a quest and see some nerd questing near you and you just cant help but wait till he starts a fight with a mob and BOOM gank his punk *** PeeeeeeVeeeeeePeeeeee
Well in all fairness, I think this game is aimed a little more toward the older player like myself who played DAoC back when it was the game to play. We are older now, and have less time to play games. I think for many of those DAoC players, most of the fondest memories were awesome RvR battles. So I for one am glad that we will get an RvR game, and not have to worry so much about the PvE side of things.
As a side effect of awesome RvR battles, hopefully after launch it will appeal to more of the players who might be reluctant. I think it might surprise a lot of people. The combat system they are building isn't really like any of the other games out there.
Also as I still log in to DAoC from time to time, though Ywain isn't quite the same for me. Even with the new PVE content they have added, people only do it for the items, all the current action in DAoC is still in NNF as they call it now.
I like the idea of landscapes changing over time to reflect the realm that owns the territory.
I was pretty upset when MJ sold out to EA Mythic, so i was very reluctant about giving this game any thought at first. But he has slowly won me back over (still not a backer), and now i can reluctantly agree that i do have high hopes for CU. Yes, i am part of that niche target audience he so fondly speaks of. Nobody can put a stir on realm pride or community like this team can.
You need dinner to appreciate dessert, and you need dessert to appreciate dinner. All one of the other is kind of blah.
Same with PVE and PVP. I do hope Design has a change of heart and caters to both crowds, allowing each an escape into the other activity when things get kind of old. DAOC did this right, no reason CU cannot do this.
CU devs are (and were since before Kickstarter) pretty determined and clear when speaking what will and what will not be in the game PvEwise. The only changeable part is what people here think when saying "PvE" (and this seems to vary a lot).
I have never liked the PvE in DAoC it was awful and the same with Warhammer. Mythic never could do an interesting job. Their forte is PvP or RvR.
PvE in DAOC was decent for its time (talking Vanilla) - warhammer PvE was atrocious, some of the worst I've played.
Not even in the same league.
I enjoyed DAOC RvR way more than WAR.
As a whole WAR was IMO the most disappointing major name MMO I've played, considering the dev team behind it.
I remember WAR's pve. I am talking about the questing around the world killing mobs not public quests/instance stuff, and boy it was not good. Mobs respawning way too quickly and insta agro while you are trying to cross something.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
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because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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I hope Mark stays the line. Why does the PVE crowd think every game is about them? the one thing I know for fact, PVE makes me fall asleep at the Keyboard, RvR makes me play late into the night. save my neck Mr. Jacobs, don't make me PVE!
Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
For a combatant (crafters are their own class), leveling by killing creatures will not lead to skill increases. We've been very clear about that even before our Kickstarter began. For crafters, since they are a bit offensively challenged, they might be able to level some basic combat skills. OTOH, most critters that crafters will kill to get mats will be one HP kind of critters so even the lowest level crafter can kill them. Otherwise, it would suck to be a crafter, especially a new one.
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
I respect the fact you stick with your guns (and the fact that you respect the backers that already invested in this game).
Having said that I believe the total lack of PvE is a major fault with the game design. Having to PvP all the time can be monotonous, even for a hardcore PvPer, you need to have something else to do in between the main event (PvP)
I don't remember DAoC being devoid of PvE, it was clearly a PvP-RvR game, but there was enough PvE to keep people entertained when they didn't feel to PvP. Even Darkfall which is the best and most hardcore PvP game has more PvE than Camelot, but it wasn't exactly a success. I can tell you the main reason why Darkfall didn't do so well, and the main reason is that slowly all PvErs left the game. I feel like PvP games won't work unless they can attract the PvErs as well. PvPers like to prey on PvErs in MMOs. Without PvErs, the PvPers won't have easy preys to kill, and eventually they will quit too. MMO PvPers like easy kills, they don't like to fight between each others (they are very bad losers). Whoever wants fair PvP fights with like minded people plays MOBAs, not MMORPGs. At least that's my view.
Anyway, it's your game, your way. Good luck.
I played DAoC for almost 2 years and I rarely ventured into the RvR frontiers. 95% of my time was spent in PvE. The only time I really ventured into the frontiers was to fight back to gain access to Darkness Falls. Which is where the majority of my time was spent. Also spent a lot of time in Cornwall and Lyonesse. And most of my formative levels was spent in Stonehenge Barrows.
Some of the best times I had in the game was with PvE and that is why the exclusion of PvE leveling is something I think is a huge mistake.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
What you seem to call "PvE" is both too expensive (out of CU's budget reach), unnecessary and you can play one of many other games that have it.
Monsters will be dropping natural loot, such as scale, fur or meat. Talking about, say, epixx - these are very bad for the economy, especially RvR one. If monsters drop loot, then whats the point?
Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
What you seem to call "PvE" is both too expensive (out of CU's budget reach), unnecessary and you can play one of many other games that have it.
Monsters will be dropping natural loot, such as scale, fur or meat. Talking about, say, epixx - these are very bad for the economy, especially RvR one. If monsters drop loot, then whats the point?
I agree. I donated to this project because I had faith that it would succeed I hoped that this success of a niche game would encourage the development of a niche EQ style PvE game. BY SOMEONE ELSE.
As a PvE player I never expected to play this game and I think that broadening it out to make it PvE too would be a big mistake.
Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
What you seem to call "PvE" is both too expensive (out of CU's budget reach), unnecessary and you can play one of many other games that have it.
Monsters will be dropping natural loot, such as scale, fur or meat. Talking about, say, epixx - these are very bad for the economy, especially RvR one. If monsters drop loot, then whats the point?
I actually think having pve in the sense azzamasin is suggesting would (and is) bad for a game that is focused on RvR pvp. I have read quite a bit of the ideas behind making CU on their website and it is obvious that a lot of thought went into every decision they made about gameplay.
Even if they had a huge budget, imo they wouldn't be adding in "traditional" pve, because that would basically break the game and go against much of the principles listed on their site. It would be going against the whole vision of what they are trying to achieve.
Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
What you seem to call "PvE" is both too expensive (out of CU's budget reach), unnecessary and you can play one of many other games that have it.
Monsters will be dropping natural loot, such as scale, fur or meat. Talking about, say, epixx - these are very bad for the economy, especially RvR one. If monsters drop loot, then whats the point?
I agree. I donated to this project because I had faith that it would succeed I hoped that this success of a niche game would encourage the development of a niche EQ style PvE game. BY SOMEONE ELSE.
As a PvE player I never expected to play this game and I think that broadening it out to make it PvE too would be a big mistake.
Funny thing, I too am a PVE player who only dabbles in PVP, and I'm really not sure CU is the game for me, yet I became an alpha backer because I believed in the vision of creating this title with it's focus on RVR and hope it can wash away the stain that WAR was for fans of the original DAOC.
Still looking for someone to make a DAOC 2, but for now this is the closest thing on the horizon.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Hey folks, so back when this was first announced, and I heard there was no PvE, I pictured a boring barren world with a constant pointless war, with no lore, nothing to tether it to any real fight.
A lot like Planetside 2, actually.
I think it was the biggest mistake of this Kickstarter not to elaborate on the "no PvE" thing.
There will be no PvE leveling. All leveling happens in RvR.
But, there will be monsters, and animals, and guards, and soldiers. They exist for CRAFTERS, and as obstacles. Their hides and parts will become raw materials, house decorations, ect. Mj wants dungeons (not just the Depths or mines) in the game for crafting materials and such.
There is a lot of room for PvE that isn't traditional PvE, but is still an NPC monster for you and your buddies to bash on when you aren't warring in the realm.
I do not know to what extent this side of the game will be expanded to, but it DOES exist. Lore DOES exist. This isn't just planetside without guns. I am relieved, to say the least.
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
SO nothing is worth doing without a reward? Secondly raw materials are loot..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Or chain running L4's where you do the same 4-5 quests over and over again where swarms of mindless enemies thrash your ship for 20-30 mins while not doing any damage, not running away, and letting you massacre them 1 by 1.
Or scanning down anomalies where swarms of mindless enemies thrash your ship for 20-30 mins while not doing any damage, not running away, and letting you massacre them 1 by 1.
But yeah, pretty solid PVE and PVP balance there.
I recognize that coding PvE takes a LOT of resources, but I don't know too many games that are PvP focused with essentially no PvE, outside of the MOBAs and Eve Online. Doesn't Eve have PvE pirates to fight?
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PS people that enjoyed WAR (the ones that dare speaking about it publicly) ALWAYS put flameshields type of "no matter that this or that sucked..." intro
For example based on Mark's comments we will have (new and improved) living guild system of WAR. For anyone that forgot about it, here is a reminder (scroll down to the "Living guilds" section) - http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Guild
I just see the lack of a PvE side even a more minor PvE side being a killer for the game to last.
Further think back to DAoC, was there really much of a RvR community? There were always a handful of names on every side every major RvRer knew but most were just random names and no community or social aspect in that. The community and social aspect happened on the PvE side of the game because people had to work together instead of just following the zerg hoping to get their own.
Without having to worry about pve balance and progression it will be a lot easier to deliver a kick ass pvp experience imo. That said there is some pve in there, but from what I read it will be intrinsically tied to the pvp and only have meaning in terms of how it adds to the pvp game.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
As a side effect of awesome RvR battles, hopefully after launch it will appeal to more of the players who might be reluctant. I think it might surprise a lot of people. The combat system they are building isn't really like any of the other games out there.
Also as I still log in to DAoC from time to time, though Ywain isn't quite the same for me. Even with the new PVE content they have added, people only do it for the items, all the current action in DAoC is still in NNF as they call it now.
I was pretty upset when MJ sold out to EA Mythic, so i was very reluctant about giving this game any thought at first. But he has slowly won me back over (still not a backer), and now i can reluctantly agree that i do have high hopes for CU. Yes, i am part of that niche target audience he so fondly speaks of. Nobody can put a stir on realm pride or community like this team can.
I remember WAR's pve. I am talking about the questing around the world killing mobs not public quests/instance stuff, and boy it was not good. Mobs respawning way too quickly and insta agro while you are trying to cross something.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Life IS Feudal
Sorry but try as you might, this isn't PvE. If Monsters don't drop loot then whats the point?
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I played DAoC for almost 2 years and I rarely ventured into the RvR frontiers. 95% of my time was spent in PvE. The only time I really ventured into the frontiers was to fight back to gain access to Darkness Falls. Which is where the majority of my time was spent. Also spent a lot of time in Cornwall and Lyonesse. And most of my formative levels was spent in Stonehenge Barrows.
Some of the best times I had in the game was with PvE and that is why the exclusion of PvE leveling is something I think is a huge mistake.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Monsters will be dropping natural loot, such as scale, fur or meat. Talking about, say, epixx - these are very bad for the economy, especially RvR one. If monsters drop loot, then whats the point?
BY SOMEONE ELSE.
As a PvE player I never expected to play this game and I think that broadening it out to make it PvE too would be a big mistake.
Even if they had a huge budget, imo they wouldn't be adding in "traditional" pve, because that would basically break the game and go against much of the principles listed on their site. It would be going against the whole vision of what they are trying to achieve.
Still looking for someone to make a DAOC 2, but for now this is the closest thing on the horizon.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson