That is a factor Nari, but it should not be beyond the wit of a gaming company to make a MMO that does not have most players leaving after a couple of months. That fact has nothing to do with player psychology, it is to do with game design.
If you make a MMO that players can get to top level in a month, have little end game and nothing else for them to do then you have made a MMO you can expect no one to stay in. If you add to that a ribbon world of thin strips of land connected to small hubs, then you are saying to players 'there is nothing else here for you'.
We have had many MMO's in the past where players on average lasted more than a couple of months. And I am not just talking about EQ/UO days when we only had a couple of MMO's to play. Gaming companies have enthralled players with MMO's that would keep them entertained for one to serveral years, and with the right design one could be done again.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
This is how I'm feeling too. I can't do it, I just can't do it anymore, these themepark quest grind single player online games.. I've had enough of them. I was looking for a new MMO to play, The Secret World was getting a bit too much with quest after quest, never seeming to group except for the odd 'end of map' dungeon, so I tried the weekend freeplay of Guild Wars 2. And there we go again, more single player, run from quest to quest, beating mobs like you're some overpowered superhero, the only hint that you're actually in a multiplayer game being the guy who just ran past on his Uber_Mount_01, trying to show off his loot like anyone gives a damn.
Not happy there, I went and tried the open beta of Neverwinter and guess what? More single player, quest to quest, bashing mobs like a superhero, with that same guy on his Uber_Mount_01 trying to show off his loot like anyone gives a damn. And it's the same everywhere I look, the MMO genre has become infested with these godawful games that have next to nothing to do with multiplayer, with no challenge whatsoever, with a linear path from a to Z, with a billion quests that lead you around by the nose...
I just can't do it.. I think it's time I gave this genre up, MMO's could have been something truly special. I played EverQuest and imagined how those games could develop in the future, when graphics, sound and processing power reached a higher level. But now we're there, I see nothing but MMO-lites, games that wouldn't be out of place on a console. It's a shame, these games could have been so much more.
That is a factor Nari, but it should not be beyond the wit of a gaming company to make a MMO that does not have most players leaving after a couple of months. That fact has nothing to do with player psychology, it is to do with game design.
How can one say player psychology has nothing to with behaviro (and staying is a behavior)? Obviously psychology is a part of it. Design interacts with psychology.
If you make a MMO that players can get to top level in a month, have little end game and nothing else for them to do then you have made a MMO you can expect no one to stay in. If you add to that a ribbon world of thin strips of land connected to small hubs, then you are saying to players 'there is nothing else here for you'.
Or, you make leveling to max takes 10 years, and it is all about killing the same mobs again, and again. And players will quite after a month, without reaching max level because it is boring for them. You can't always make them stay even if you want to.
Secondly, obviously many MMOs design for short periods of engagement with players. I don't disagree. The question is .. why shouldn't they? If the ROI of the game is good, i don't see a problem from a business point of view.
We have had many MMO's in the past where players on average lasted more than a couple of months. And I am not just talking about EQ/UO days when we only had a couple of MMO's to play. Gaming companies have enthralled players with MMO's that would keep them entertained for one to serveral years, and with the right design one could be done again.
The question is why? If it costs a billion dollars to do so, no one would or should do it.
If devs want to provide shorter entertainment with more variety, and if the market respond positively, what is the problem?
I just can't do it.. I think it's time I gave this genre up, MMO's could have been something truly special. I played EverQuest and imagined how those games could develop in the future, when graphics, sound and processing power reached a higher level. But now we're there, I see nothing but MMO-lites, games that wouldn't be out of place on a console. It's a shame, these games could have been so much more.
And i see better games, better entertainment, more convenience.
That is a factor Nari, but it should not be beyond the wit of a gaming company to make a MMO that does not have most players leaving after a couple of months. That fact has nothing to do with player psychology, it is to do with game design.
How can one say player psychology has nothing to with behaviro (and staying is a behavior)? Obviously psychology is a part of it. Design interacts with psychology.
If you make a MMO that players can get to top level in a month, have little end game and nothing else for them to do then you have made a MMO you can expect no one to stay in. If you add to that a ribbon world of thin strips of land connected to small hubs, then you are saying to players 'there is nothing else here for you'.
Or, you make leveling to max takes 10 years, and it is all about killing the same mobs again, and again. And players will quite after a month, without reaching max level because it is boring for them. You can't always make them stay even if you want to.
Secondly, obviously many MMOs design for short periods of engagement with players. I don't disagree. The question is .. why shouldn't they? If the ROI of the game is good, i don't see a problem from a business point of view.
We have had many MMO's in the past where players on average lasted more than a couple of months. And I am not just talking about EQ/UO days when we only had a couple of MMO's to play. Gaming companies have enthralled players with MMO's that would keep them entertained for one to serveral years, and with the right design one could be done again.
The question is why? If it costs a billion dollars to do so, no one would or should do it.
If devs want to provide shorter entertainment with more variety, and if the market respond positively, what is the problem?
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Why try for a better MMO? It was done before and WoW is still making a mint, thats the business argument. But if we take your concept and apply it to other entertainment industries we see why.
For films we would only be seeing TV cartoons by now. They are 'short periods of entertainment'. For books we would only have magazines. For music there would be no albums, only singles.
That is why the MMO industry should strive for more, to make great MMO's like great films. Not just Daffy Duck cartoons.
Soon there will be a RPG to suit everyone. The creation of MMORPGs will become very easy and hosting an MMO will become cheap, if not doing it from a server parked in your living room.
Everyone will be happy. Then you will see posts like 'are there too many MMO choices these days?'
Some of those old games, I've tried to go back and play them. They didn't live up to my memories.
The current trend have gone this way the last 12 years or so, yes. But trends always turn sooner or later and I am sure that there will once again be a time when the difficulty will be increased, many of us do know that stuff you get easy are useless while stuff that is hard to get feels really sweet.
I do however think that MMOs never will be as time consuming as the old ones were, I dont think you ever will spend 8 hours to move between 2 in game cities again just because the game is huge and fast traveling is limited.
But hard and time consuming are very different things.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
I think what you are getting at is to achieve a sense of accomplishment after making progression but still knowing that there is more to do.
Commonly people who work hard in school or in their career gets that feeling. In my honest opinion, those MMO's are just mirroring life in an easier and more manageable fashion where it presents a challenge but not really any failure since you can redo everything. It's a fantasy world where you can make a name for yourself if you are not a politician or rockstar and I believe that it is great for the human psyche.
However, people who play casual games needs not instant gratification but a sense of accomplishment in the short time he spent in-game. Instant gratification would in the end be to just be presented with a screen that says "You Win" when it comes to games in this context.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Crafters with a name is a very simple thing to acheive - an inscription on a peice of crafted gear that says "Crafted by X", which new MMOs seem to always leave out.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Originally posted by Torgrim We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Crafters with a name is a very simple thing to acheive - an inscription on a peice of crafted gear that says "Crafted by X", which new MMOs seem to always leave out.
That was one of the two things I recommended as part of the pre-alpha focus group for Fallen Earth, and the devs just didn't understand why it might be desirable. They didn't listen to that and other suggestions, and the crafting in that game that could have been great, ended up being "meh".
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Yes, it is about the balance, and markets are notoriously good at finding balances.
You logic is just flawed. "Short period of entertainment" is least likely to get stale. A game that takes years to play is much more likely to get stale. Tell me, is playing 10 new games stale, compared to just one?
In fact, shorter games is more conducive to innovation and new stuff. Devs can also take more risk with a smaller investment. Look at the indie games. They are much smaller, and there are many and they take more risks.
There already are short term, cheap online products to play for quick easy fun. You can download them to your mobile devices or play them on Facebook. PC based MMOs? Not so much unless you're counting titles that aren't really MMOs.
I agree with Scot on this and think that the first MMO to have fun gameplay in a game world that is deep enough, big enough and fosters player interaction will see members activity numbers that don't look like a spirometer graph.
Cheaper games aren't the answer as it's a canabalising theory. It's predicated on titles continuously replacing one another so unless it's by the same company that's far too much flux to get investers on board going forward. It may for for a year or two though. Honestly I can't see how anyone would want a subpar MMO system like that when Facebook and mobile devices can give you the same thing.
Originally posted by Aelious There already are short term, cheap online products to play for quick easy fun. You can download them to your mobile devices or play them on Facebook. PC based MMOs? Not so much unless you're counting titles that aren't really MMOs.
That is just semantics. Those short term games are classified as MMOs, even here.
Play and treat them as you wish and I hope you have fun. That doesn't change the fundamental understanding of the English language however and we all know why those games are listed here and at sites like massively.
They have thier own catagory anyways, I'm not sure why saying they aren't MMORPG games is such a big deal.
Semantics means you're talking about the same thing, which they are not. Besides, that was only one small point I made. The rest was of bigger importance.
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Yes, it is about the balance, and markets are notoriously good at finding balances.
You logic is just flawed. "Short period of entertainment" is least likely to get stale. A game that takes years to play is much more likely to get stale. Tell me, is playing 10 new games stale, compared to just one?
In fact, shorter games is more conducive to innovation and new stuff. Devs can also take more risk with a smaller investment. Look at the indie games. They are much smaller, and there are many and they take more risks.
I like cartoons and magazines myself, I have got enjoyment from some ribbon world tiny MMO's in my time. But lets have more, lets have a grander vision too, one that tries to make a truely great MMO. You seem satisfied with tiny world snacks, many of us want a feast of a MMO. As I said before chef Blizzard made a grand feast once, it can be done again. Maybe with a touch more sandbox seasoning this time.
I do think many of old times are just giving up.. I can only speak for myself and the friends I used to play with, but today's MMO market holds no interest to us.. I grew up with AD&D with pencil and paper over 30 years ago, and when I saw the chance to play EQ in 1999, I jumped on it along with many others.. The days of an open "non-instance" world was both agrivating and fun.. The limitation of what classes could do was both a gift and a curse.. And I wouldn't have it any other way.. I enjoyed being chased to the zone line to lose agro if I screwed up.. I enjoyed the gut wrenching anxiety of being stunned while trying to open a door to get away from the train.. YES, I miss colision issues.. I enjoyed the random spawn of raid mobs in open zones..
Was there problems with things like pug raid drops? YES.. There was a small list of issues from back then that only needing tweaking, NOT total revamp of a successful formula.. I doubt we'll see any serious resurrection of old style MMO'ing again.. Gamers today want "ITEM" rewards for everything they do, and they want it now.. The days of mutual community interaction are gone.. Anyone remember the days when some of us used to "BUFF" newbies in return for bat wings or other loot drops that we used in crafting? Heck sometimes I would just log on, chat a bit in /ooc and guild chat and do nothing for exp, but just enjoy doing odds and ends..
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Yes, yes you are, and that's a good thing. Keep playing your old games that you love and cherish so much and leave the new generation have their own fun.
I do think many of old times are just giving up.. I can only speak for myself and the friends I used to play with, but today's MMO market holds no interest to us..
Perhaps the sparkle of fleeting e-fame ("crafters that really matter" "my mad raiding skillz are famous server-wide, see mah trophies?" "look at my High Score, I have pwned so many newbz") has begun to fade away with time.
In a way, that's a hopeful sign of maturity.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Aelious Play and treat them as you wish and I hope you have fun. That doesn't change the fundamental understanding of the English language however and we all know why those games are listed here and at sites like massively.
You mean like how D3, PoE, WoT, LoL, and many other games without a virtual world are listed here?
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Yes, it is about the balance, and markets are notoriously good at finding balances.
You logic is just flawed. "Short period of entertainment" is least likely to get stale. A game that takes years to play is much more likely to get stale. Tell me, is playing 10 new games stale, compared to just one?
In fact, shorter games is more conducive to innovation and new stuff. Devs can also take more risk with a smaller investment. Look at the indie games. They are much smaller, and there are many and they take more risks.
I like cartoons and magazines myself, I have got enjoyment from some ribbon world tiny MMO's in my time. But lets have more, lets have a grander vision too, one that tries to make a truely great MMO. You seem satisfied with tiny world snacks, many of us want a feast of a MMO. As I said before chef Blizzard made a grand feast once, it can be done again. Maybe with a touch more sandbox seasoning this time.
In that case, you are covered. Sounds like you can enjoy what is out in the market today.
This notion of "let's have more .. let's have a grander vision" ... who are you talking to? I don't waste my time "visioining" entertainment products that i will never build. Building games is in the hands of devs, not players.
Personally i only respond to their creation. If their product suits me and i find fun .. great .. i will play .. and may be even spend money. Otherwise, there are other forms of entertainment.
And yes, i never found a "world" that entertaining. In fact, many games without worlds are much more fun, for me of course, than those who have. And the list is long. That is just preference of me, which is irrelevant for devs. They respond to the aggregate of preferences in the market place.
Don't make it sound it "tiny" is bad. A tiny FUN experience is better (for me) than a big grand but boring one. Ever heard of "quality" over "quantity"? A game environement does not have to be big to be fun.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
I'm an older player myself, as I started with EQ and Shadowbane. Shadowbane was the furthest thing from instant gratification there was... lol. I remember making a character, messing up a skill point and the having to scrap the character and start over haha.
Things have most certainly changed, but what has always bothered me about post like this is the fact that some of the older games are still out there. You can still play EQ right now, and they just put out another expansion. DAoC is still out there also, along with Ultima online.
The issue isn't just with the games, it with us as players as well. Those older games are out there but no one wants to play them because we're spoiled with next gen visuals and whatnot. I mean think about it.. if these games were as great as we remember, wouldn't they be stocked with players? Doesn't the creme rise to the top?
Phase 1 - Games come out and require you to learn how to play the game to progress.
people whine
Phase 2 - Games come out and it is now easier to progress and takes less time.
people whine
Phase 3 - Games come out and you can buy all types of progression from item mall.
people whine
Phase 4 - What's next?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Guess it is a pritty complex question to answer. Will the generation of younger gamers today mature into players seeking more depth and challenge in these games eventually? Personally, even thou i cant characterize myself as an old fart (and wont in my mid 30s), I think that for me it has since my teens been a part of me as a person/character in rpg inspired games. Here I like to 'take the long way home', to go and look for the possible chest behind the waterfall, get punished, feel lost and so forth (dont need counceling either) I also believe that once these games 'belonged' to a different demography - that is of cause evident. I had played some MMO's previous to my so called first kiss experience which was WoW - today this makes me somewhat perplex. I however have experienced games like Morrowind, a bunch of RPG's before and Vanguard - games that really opend my eyes. But in regard to the question at hand a main point is of cause that there actually must be games in existance based 'old fart mechanisc' to experience for this new huge population. Without this experience there wont be anything to compare. And these games must graphically be comparable to the standards of today. The most logical assumption for me would be that with a huge increase in the market the chance of there being more midage, respactable and challengeseeking men like myself, would indeed also increase. The World itself aint tailored around a principle of insta gratification, it aint what makes us the beings we are - We as a species seek challenges, we explore, we work and we develop into something more than what we were before.
I'm an older player myself, as I started with EQ and Shadowbane. Shadowbane was the furthest thing from instant gratification there was... lol. I remember making a character, messing up a skill point and the having to scrap the character and start over haha.
No wonder if failes. I would much rather have D3's system that i can experiment with builds. That is a lot more fun than sticking with one, and have to waste weeks if i want to change my build.
Instant gratification is a good thing .. when it comes to trying out new builds.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
I know how you feel i rember in eq if you die the long cr runs and loseing lvs like one time in growth raid wiped and had a 13 hour cr run was afraid we would all lose our stuff til a few druids came to help us. but i hate to say it those days are over with if half these kids had to wait 13 hours to get there equip back most would rage quit. and god forbid you just hit max lv and died and lost your lv that took you a week to get with hours and hours of play.
Meh some people have Jobs and families these days. not everyone is a able to put life on hold for 12-16 hour just to do a dungeon raid. Not everyone wants to ruin their lives or the health like old school EQ used to do being a second job requiring 8-12 hours a day several days a week.
Sure I guess its fine if you don't have a job, and don't have any family or loved ones (girlfriend etc) However I think for most of us we grew up or simply got smarter about how much we could play before it started messing with out RL. Not a popular opinion in the old school crowd i know
Comments
That is a factor Nari, but it should not be beyond the wit of a gaming company to make a MMO that does not have most players leaving after a couple of months. That fact has nothing to do with player psychology, it is to do with game design.
If you make a MMO that players can get to top level in a month, have little end game and nothing else for them to do then you have made a MMO you can expect no one to stay in. If you add to that a ribbon world of thin strips of land connected to small hubs, then you are saying to players 'there is nothing else here for you'.
We have had many MMO's in the past where players on average lasted more than a couple of months. And I am not just talking about EQ/UO days when we only had a couple of MMO's to play. Gaming companies have enthralled players with MMO's that would keep them entertained for one to serveral years, and with the right design one could be done again.
This is how I'm feeling too. I can't do it, I just can't do it anymore, these themepark quest grind single player online games.. I've had enough of them. I was looking for a new MMO to play, The Secret World was getting a bit too much with quest after quest, never seeming to group except for the odd 'end of map' dungeon, so I tried the weekend freeplay of Guild Wars 2. And there we go again, more single player, run from quest to quest, beating mobs like you're some overpowered superhero, the only hint that you're actually in a multiplayer game being the guy who just ran past on his Uber_Mount_01, trying to show off his loot like anyone gives a damn.
Not happy there, I went and tried the open beta of Neverwinter and guess what? More single player, quest to quest, bashing mobs like a superhero, with that same guy on his Uber_Mount_01 trying to show off his loot like anyone gives a damn. And it's the same everywhere I look, the MMO genre has become infested with these godawful games that have next to nothing to do with multiplayer, with no challenge whatsoever, with a linear path from a to Z, with a billion quests that lead you around by the nose...
I just can't do it.. I think it's time I gave this genre up, MMO's could have been something truly special. I played EverQuest and imagined how those games could develop in the future, when graphics, sound and processing power reached a higher level. But now we're there, I see nothing but MMO-lites, games that wouldn't be out of place on a console. It's a shame, these games could have been so much more.
And i see better games, better entertainment, more convenience.
It *is* so much more than what it was before.
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Why try for a better MMO? It was done before and WoW is still making a mint, thats the business argument. But if we take your concept and apply it to other entertainment industries we see why.
For films we would only be seeing TV cartoons by now. They are 'short periods of entertainment'. For books we would only have magazines. For music there would be no albums, only singles.
That is why the MMO industry should strive for more, to make great MMO's like great films. Not just Daffy Duck cartoons.
Soon there will be a RPG to suit everyone. The creation of MMORPGs will become very easy and hosting an MMO will become cheap, if not doing it from a server parked in your living room.
Everyone will be happy. Then you will see posts like 'are there too many MMO choices these days?'
Some of those old games, I've tried to go back and play them. They didn't live up to my memories.
The current trend have gone this way the last 12 years or so, yes. But trends always turn sooner or later and I am sure that there will once again be a time when the difficulty will be increased, many of us do know that stuff you get easy are useless while stuff that is hard to get feels really sweet.
I do however think that MMOs never will be as time consuming as the old ones were, I dont think you ever will spend 8 hours to move between 2 in game cities again just because the game is huge and fast traveling is limited.
But hard and time consuming are very different things.
I think what you are getting at is to achieve a sense of accomplishment after making progression but still knowing that there is more to do.
Commonly people who work hard in school or in their career gets that feeling. In my honest opinion, those MMO's are just mirroring life in an easier and more manageable fashion where it presents a challenge but not really any failure since you can redo everything. It's a fantasy world where you can make a name for yourself if you are not a politician or rockstar and I believe that it is great for the human psyche.
However, people who play casual games needs not instant gratification but a sense of accomplishment in the short time he spent in-game. Instant gratification would in the end be to just be presented with a screen that says "You Win" when it comes to games in this context.
Crafters with a name is a very simple thing to acheive - an inscription on a peice of crafted gear that says "Crafted by X", which new MMOs seem to always leave out.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Crafters with a name is a very simple thing to acheive - an inscription on a peice of crafted gear that says "Crafted by X", which new MMOs seem to always leave out.
That was one of the two things I recommended as part of the pre-alpha focus group for Fallen Earth, and the devs just didn't understand why it might be desirable. They didn't listen to that and other suggestions, and the crafting in that game that could have been great, ended up being "meh".Yes, it is about the balance, and markets are notoriously good at finding balances.
You logic is just flawed. "Short period of entertainment" is least likely to get stale. A game that takes years to play is much more likely to get stale. Tell me, is playing 10 new games stale, compared to just one?
In fact, shorter games is more conducive to innovation and new stuff. Devs can also take more risk with a smaller investment. Look at the indie games. They are much smaller, and there are many and they take more risks.
I agree with Scot on this and think that the first MMO to have fun gameplay in a game world that is deep enough, big enough and fosters player interaction will see members activity numbers that don't look like a spirometer graph.
Cheaper games aren't the answer as it's a canabalising theory. It's predicated on titles continuously replacing one another so unless it's by the same company that's far too much flux to get investers on board going forward. It may for for a year or two though. Honestly I can't see how anyone would want a subpar MMO system like that when Facebook and mobile devices can give you the same thing.
That is just semantics. Those short term games are classified as MMOs, even here.
And i will play & treat them as such.
They have thier own catagory anyways, I'm not sure why saying they aren't MMORPG games is such a big deal.
Semantics means you're talking about the same thing, which they are not. Besides, that was only one small point I made. The rest was of bigger importance.
I like cartoons and magazines myself, I have got enjoyment from some ribbon world tiny MMO's in my time. But lets have more, lets have a grander vision too, one that tries to make a truely great MMO. You seem satisfied with tiny world snacks, many of us want a feast of a MMO. As I said before chef Blizzard made a grand feast once, it can be done again. Maybe with a touch more sandbox seasoning this time.
I do think many of old times are just giving up.. I can only speak for myself and the friends I used to play with, but today's MMO market holds no interest to us.. I grew up with AD&D with pencil and paper over 30 years ago, and when I saw the chance to play EQ in 1999, I jumped on it along with many others.. The days of an open "non-instance" world was both agrivating and fun.. The limitation of what classes could do was both a gift and a curse.. And I wouldn't have it any other way.. I enjoyed being chased to the zone line to lose agro if I screwed up.. I enjoyed the gut wrenching anxiety of being stunned while trying to open a door to get away from the train.. YES, I miss colision issues.. I enjoyed the random spawn of raid mobs in open zones..
Was there problems with things like pug raid drops? YES.. There was a small list of issues from back then that only needing tweaking, NOT total revamp of a successful formula.. I doubt we'll see any serious resurrection of old style MMO'ing again.. Gamers today want "ITEM" rewards for everything they do, and they want it now.. The days of mutual community interaction are gone.. Anyone remember the days when some of us used to "BUFF" newbies in return for bat wings or other loot drops that we used in crafting? Heck sometimes I would just log on, chat a bit in /ooc and guild chat and do nothing for exp, but just enjoy doing odds and ends..
Yes, yes you are, and that's a good thing. Keep playing your old games that you love and cherish so much and leave the new generation have their own fun.
Perhaps the sparkle of fleeting e-fame ("crafters that really matter" "my mad raiding skillz are famous server-wide, see mah trophies?" "look at my High Score, I have pwned so many newbz") has begun to fade away with time.
In a way, that's a hopeful sign of maturity.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You mean like how D3, PoE, WoT, LoL, and many other games without a virtual world are listed here?
In that case, you are covered. Sounds like you can enjoy what is out in the market today.
This notion of "let's have more .. let's have a grander vision" ... who are you talking to? I don't waste my time "visioining" entertainment products that i will never build. Building games is in the hands of devs, not players.
Personally i only respond to their creation. If their product suits me and i find fun .. great .. i will play .. and may be even spend money. Otherwise, there are other forms of entertainment.
And yes, i never found a "world" that entertaining. In fact, many games without worlds are much more fun, for me of course, than those who have. And the list is long. That is just preference of me, which is irrelevant for devs. They respond to the aggregate of preferences in the market place.
Don't make it sound it "tiny" is bad. A tiny FUN experience is better (for me) than a big grand but boring one. Ever heard of "quality" over "quantity"? A game environement does not have to be big to be fun.
I'm an older player myself, as I started with EQ and Shadowbane. Shadowbane was the furthest thing from instant gratification there was... lol. I remember making a character, messing up a skill point and the having to scrap the character and start over haha.
Things have most certainly changed, but what has always bothered me about post like this is the fact that some of the older games are still out there. You can still play EQ right now, and they just put out another expansion. DAoC is still out there also, along with Ultima online.
The issue isn't just with the games, it with us as players as well. Those older games are out there but no one wants to play them because we're spoiled with next gen visuals and whatnot. I mean think about it.. if these games were as great as we remember, wouldn't they be stocked with players? Doesn't the creme rise to the top?
MMO go through phases.
Phase 1 - Games come out and require you to learn how to play the game to progress.
people whine
Phase 2 - Games come out and it is now easier to progress and takes less time.
people whine
Phase 3 - Games come out and you can buy all types of progression from item mall.
people whine
Phase 4 - What's next?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Guess it is a pritty complex question to answer. Will the generation of younger gamers today mature into players seeking more depth and challenge in these games eventually? Personally, even thou i cant characterize myself as an old fart (and wont in my mid 30s), I think that for me it has since my teens been a part of me as a person/character in rpg inspired games. Here I like to 'take the long way home', to go and look for the possible chest behind the waterfall, get punished, feel lost and so forth (dont need counceling either) I also believe that once these games 'belonged' to a different demography - that is of cause evident. I had played some MMO's previous to my so called first kiss experience which was WoW - today this makes me somewhat perplex. I however have experienced games like Morrowind, a bunch of RPG's before and Vanguard - games that really opend my eyes. But in regard to the question at hand a main point is of cause that there actually must be games in existance based 'old fart mechanisc' to experience for this new huge population. Without this experience there wont be anything to compare. And these games must graphically be comparable to the standards of today. The most logical assumption for me would be that with a huge increase in the market the chance of there being more midage, respactable and challengeseeking men like myself, would indeed also increase. The World itself aint tailored around a principle of insta gratification, it aint what makes us the beings we are - We as a species seek challenges, we explore, we work and we develop into something more than what we were before.
No wonder if failes. I would much rather have D3's system that i can experiment with builds. That is a lot more fun than sticking with one, and have to waste weeks if i want to change my build.
Instant gratification is a good thing .. when it comes to trying out new builds.
Meh some people have Jobs and families these days. not everyone is a able to put life on hold for 12-16 hour just to do a dungeon raid. Not everyone wants to ruin their lives or the health like old school EQ used to do being a second job requiring 8-12 hours a day several days a week.
Sure I guess its fine if you don't have a job, and don't have any family or loved ones (girlfriend etc) However I think for most of us we grew up or simply got smarter about how much we could play before it started messing with out RL. Not a popular opinion in the old school crowd i know