It all sounds good and makes sense on paper, and I would have agreed with you if I hadn't experienced horizontal progression for myself. Playing Defiance left me with no doubt that while horizontal progressions sounded good to me, in action it just did not result in a strong desire to play whatsoever. Never really feeling stronger just didn't do it for me one bit.
Nah .. some don't. TOR is much better off without a persistent world.
I can't even....
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by asdarAnother example of a problem with vertical progression is when you face a red mob. I want red to be difficult, but I don't think it's right that I hit for zero damage just because of level. If I'm willing to face a mob with 10X the HP and damage as I'm 'supposed' to face at my level then I should be able to hit it with my little dagger for my 14 points and not some level checked BS.
I agree though that doesn't have to be true with vertical progression.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You used GW2 in your example and in my opinion GW2's progression is very flawed. I found no sense of achievement to be had in that game at all. Endgame consists of being the fashion King/Queen of Tyria. Very unfulfilling and boring.
For those interested on one path to take with horizontal progress, GW2 recently released this blog that covers that in part...
For example:
New Skill and Traits
We’ll begin regularly adding new skills and traits to the game for each profession to expand your characters and builds! You will be able to earn these new traits and skills by unlocking them. To go along with this, we’ll expand the content and options to earn skill points to help encourage players to experience different challenges and content throughout the world. These skills and traits will be designed to be balanced with the existing skills/traits we currently have in the game, and will simply compliment and expand the range of abilities and tactics available to each profession. Both WvW and PvE players can acquire skills and traits, and additional means of earning skill points will be addressed for both core content areas.
The regular addition of skills and traits that you can earn as you play provides us an extremely stable, easily expandable reward system that fits neatly into the pillars of progression and advancement that Guild Wars 2 are all about. Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.
In addition to what's mentioned above, they're also working on allowing all weapon types for all professions. The thought of a mesmer with a two-handed hammer intrigues me...
Originally posted by Sengi(your points might be true in some games but not all)
Now onto the 10 reasons why is vertical progression bad in a MMO: (thats your opinion)
1.) It keeps players from enjoying the game content:
(maybe so but it also lets people enjoy the conmtent whos going to help with the cities rat problem if everyone goes right to dragons if dragons are starter mobs theyre not very epic now are they ?)
Vertical progression reduces all game content just to a means to an end. You are not doing it in the first place because you enjoy what you’re doing but because you want the reward.
(for some people yes)
2.) It splits the player base:( False theres a thing called alts, and many games allow mentoring)
Everyone likes to play with his friends, but you can’t do that if they are on another level then you. If there is no vertical progression everyone can join everyone else no matter how long he is already playing.
(and no one knows who knows how to play at least with levels you have some idea)
3.) It often leads to boring content:(i dont know what games you played but i had a blast in everquest killing rats gnolls and skeletons, dragons and giants are for the big boys and i wanted to be one but you got to earn it theres no accomplishment if its given to you)
4.) It leads to linear content:(mostly fase it doesnt have to be that way eq had several major routes to level and many other lesser known options), but theres nothing wrong with linear)
5.) It creates problems for pvp:(only if the developers are dumb its called instanced arena combat go look up nwn online no one fights anyone much higher, open world pvp sucks anyway)
6.) It lends itself to exploitive game design:(skinner box what in the name of marr is that ?)
As you might know, many games rely on skinner-box-mechanics to force you to grind through boring content. If the developer wants to force the players to grind, this is done much more effectively when the player needs to level up to see the rest of the game, instead of having him grind for a skill that won’t make him more powerful and is not mandatory.
7.) Levelling up does not change the gameplay:( false comepletely false i played a mage in eq when we got rageing servent it comepletely changed my playstyle)
When you level up it may feel like you archived something, before you notice that the only thing that changed was that you now can pass on to the next location where you fight slightly stronger differed coloured mobs. The game has just switched some numbers around. Dealing 5 points pf damage to a mob with 20 hp, is not differed then dealing 10 damage to one with 40 hp.
Some people have told me that it is fun to them to go back to a low level zone and steamroller everything there. But c’mon how long is it fun, to torture virtual ants with a magnifying glass that don’t even run away, for 2 minutes maybe?
8.) It locks players out of higher level content: (quests or levels boith take timne and quests require more effort on the devs and doing this imo would lead to boooreing quests or just quests that take as long as leveling would anyway id rather camp what i want to)
Low level players can’t enter all the zones because they won’t last there very long. This helps to structure a storyline. The hero has first to fight the minions in the lower zones and gather xp and then he can enter the lair of the main villain.
(its called anticipation if i can see everything right away.../yawn)
9.) It creates a Dragonball-Z-problem:( dont make fun of dbz bro just dont go there)
With every level the mobs you fight get higher stats, so they need to look more menacing too. Therefore the game starts as low as possible with lame opponents like rats and then makes the mobs larger and larger until you end up with dragons. And once there is an expansion the game has to come up with something like Super-Dragons and then Ultra-Dragons.
Or the high level mobs look just the same and are mysteriously much more powerful than their low level counterparts.
(you offer no solution so i armed with my rusty dagger am supposed to be fighting dragons to levl ? no thanks)
10.) It makes the game unnecessary complicated for players and designers alike:
As you see in point 7, levelling up does not really change anything. In the end the level is just a label that shows what mobs you should fight at the moment.
So if the level is not much more then an achievement, why not make it an achievement. Display it to other players to show how much you have already achieved in the game, but don’t have it change your stats.
If there was no vertical progression it would just remove one unnecessary variable from the game. The player would not have to juggle with absurd high stat values; and all the content would be the same level of difficulty for everyone and therefore easier to manage. Instead of high and low level zones there could be zones that offer easier or harder content.
so once people are done with your quests preety much all they have left is pvp? bleh No thanks
Now dont get me wrong everquest became guilty of some of your points endless aas, super rats,gear inflation but the damn games been around since 1999, it should of been overhauled and rebooted along time ago
I rather like the ability to customize my skills as I level rather than just getting statistically better versions.
Ya know?
Maybe my instant nuke with a large CD applies a root, or a dot, or resets the CD on a teleport, etc. But I want to make sure the route I've taken is visually suggested on my character. If I'm going the burning dot route as a fire mage I want to be more flamey... etc.
Originally posted by jalexbrown It's all nice and great that you can tell us what's wrong with the way things are being done right now (everyone can, or else this forum would be dead), but you don't propose anything as a solution beyond a simple definition of horizontal progression. Are you willing to outline and open to all of our critique a possible design plan built around horizontal progression?
It's pretty self explanatory what horizontal progression is, and many games have done it, to great effect.
I rather like the ability to customize my skills as I level rather than just getting statistically better versions.
Ya know?
Maybe my instant nuke with a large CD applies a root, or a dot, or resets the CD on a teleport, etc. But I want to make sure the route I've taken is visually suggested on my character. If I'm going the burning dot route as a fire mage I want to be more flamey... etc.
So you're saying you prefer horizontal to vertical, right? Because that's what you just described.
Originally posted by Sengi(your points might be true in some games but not all)
Now onto the 10 reasons why is vertical progression bad in a MMO: (thats your opinion)
1.) It keeps players from enjoying the game content:
(maybe so but it also lets people enjoy the conmtent whos going to help with the cities rat problem if everyone goes right to dragons if dragons are starter mobs theyre not very epic now are they ?)
Vertical progression reduces all game content just to a means to an end. You are not doing it in the first place because you enjoy what you’re doing but because you want the reward.
(for some people yes)
2.) It splits the player base:( False theres a thing called alts, and many games allow mentoring)
Everyone likes to play with his friends, but you can’t do that if they are on another level then you. If there is no vertical progression everyone can join everyone else no matter how long he is already playing.
(and no one knows who knows how to play at least with levels you have some idea)
3.) It often leads to boring content:(i dont know what games you played but i had a blast in everquest killing rats gnolls and skeletons, dragons and giants are for the big boys and i wanted to be one but you got to earn it theres no accomplishment if its given to you)
4.) It leads to linear content:(mostly fase it doesnt have to be that way eq had several major routes to level and many other lesser known options), but theres nothing wrong with linear)
5.) It creates problems for pvp:(only if the developers are dumb its called instanced arena combat go look up nwn online no one fights anyone much higher, open world pvp sucks anyway)
6.) It lends itself to exploitive game design:(skinner box what in the name of marr is that ?)
As you might know, many games rely on skinner-box-mechanics to force you to grind through boring content. If the developer wants to force the players to grind, this is done much more effectively when the player needs to level up to see the rest of the game, instead of having him grind for a skill that won’t make him more powerful and is not mandatory.
7.) Levelling up does not change the gameplay:( false comepletely false i played a mage in eq when we got rageing servent it comepletely changed my playstyle)
When you level up it may feel like you archived something, before you notice that the only thing that changed was that you now can pass on to the next location where you fight slightly stronger differed coloured mobs. The game has just switched some numbers around. Dealing 5 points pf damage to a mob with 20 hp, is not differed then dealing 10 damage to one with 40 hp.
Some people have told me that it is fun to them to go back to a low level zone and steamroller everything there. But c’mon how long is it fun, to torture virtual ants with a magnifying glass that don’t even run away, for 2 minutes maybe?
8.) It locks players out of higher level content: (quests or levels boith take timne and quests require more effort on the devs and doing this imo would lead to boooreing quests or just quests that take as long as leveling would anyway id rather camp what i want to)
Low level players can’t enter all the zones because they won’t last there very long. This helps to structure a storyline. The hero has first to fight the minions in the lower zones and gather xp and then he can enter the lair of the main villain.
(its called anticipation if i can see everything right away.../yawn)
9.) It creates a Dragonball-Z-problem:( dont make fun of dbz bro just dont go there)
With every level the mobs you fight get higher stats, so they need to look more menacing too. Therefore the game starts as low as possible with lame opponents like rats and then makes the mobs larger and larger until you end up with dragons. And once there is an expansion the game has to come up with something like Super-Dragons and then Ultra-Dragons.
Or the high level mobs look just the same and are mysteriously much more powerful than their low level counterparts.
(you offer no solution so i armed with my rusty dagger am supposed to be fighting dragons to levl ? no thanks)
10.) It makes the game unnecessary complicated for players and designers alike:
As you see in point 7, levelling up does not really change anything. In the end the level is just a label that shows what mobs you should fight at the moment.
So if the level is not much more then an achievement, why not make it an achievement. Display it to other players to show how much you have already achieved in the game, but don’t have it change your stats.
If there was no vertical progression it would just remove one unnecessary variable from the game. The player would not have to juggle with absurd high stat values; and all the content would be the same level of difficulty for everyone and therefore easier to manage. Instead of high and low level zones there could be zones that offer easier or harder content.
so once people are done with your quests preety much all they have left is pvp? bleh No thanks
Now dont get me wrong everquest became guilty of some of your points endless aas, super rats,gear inflation but the damn games been around since 1999, it should of been overhauled and rebooted along time ago
....Do you not understand what the OP is saying? I'm guessing you didn't even read his post.
What do you do in a vertical progression game once you're done with the "quests"? Nothing. The game is done.
What do you do when you've reached the max of your horizontal progression? You can go back and do the "newbie" zones all you want, because you don't level up to the point where content becomes useless.
Originally posted by Sengi(your points might be true in some games but not all)
Now onto the 10 reasons why is vertical progression bad in a MMO: (thats your opinion)
1.) It keeps players from enjoying the game content:
(maybe so but it also lets people enjoy the conmtent whos going to help with the cities rat problem if everyone goes right to dragons if dragons are starter mobs theyre not very epic now are they ?)
Vertical progression reduces all game content just to a means to an end. You are not doing it in the first place because you enjoy what you’re doing but because you want the reward.
(for some people yes)
2.) It splits the player base:( False theres a thing called alts, and many games allow mentoring)
Everyone likes to play with his friends, but you can’t do that if they are on another level then you. If there is no vertical progression everyone can join everyone else no matter how long he is already playing.
(and no one knows who knows how to play at least with levels you have some idea)
3.) It often leads to boring content:(i dont know what games you played but i had a blast in everquest killing rats gnolls and skeletons, dragons and giants are for the big boys and i wanted to be one but you got to earn it theres no accomplishment if its given to you)
4.) It leads to linear content:(mostly fase it doesnt have to be that way eq had several major routes to level and many other lesser known options), but theres nothing wrong with linear)
5.) It creates problems for pvp:(only if the developers are dumb its called instanced arena combat go look up nwn online no one fights anyone much higher, open world pvp sucks anyway)
6.) It lends itself to exploitive game design:(skinner box what in the name of marr is that ?)
As you might know, many games rely on skinner-box-mechanics to force you to grind through boring content. If the developer wants to force the players to grind, this is done much more effectively when the player needs to level up to see the rest of the game, instead of having him grind for a skill that won’t make him more powerful and is not mandatory.
7.) Levelling up does not change the gameplay:( false comepletely false i played a mage in eq when we got rageing servent it comepletely changed my playstyle)
When you level up it may feel like you archived something, before you notice that the only thing that changed was that you now can pass on to the next location where you fight slightly stronger differed coloured mobs. The game has just switched some numbers around. Dealing 5 points pf damage to a mob with 20 hp, is not differed then dealing 10 damage to one with 40 hp.
Some people have told me that it is fun to them to go back to a low level zone and steamroller everything there. But c’mon how long is it fun, to torture virtual ants with a magnifying glass that don’t even run away, for 2 minutes maybe?
8.) It locks players out of higher level content: (quests or levels boith take timne and quests require more effort on the devs and doing this imo would lead to boooreing quests or just quests that take as long as leveling would anyway id rather camp what i want to)
Low level players can’t enter all the zones because they won’t last there very long. This helps to structure a storyline. The hero has first to fight the minions in the lower zones and gather xp and then he can enter the lair of the main villain.
(its called anticipation if i can see everything right away.../yawn)
9.) It creates a Dragonball-Z-problem:( dont make fun of dbz bro just dont go there)
With every level the mobs you fight get higher stats, so they need to look more menacing too. Therefore the game starts as low as possible with lame opponents like rats and then makes the mobs larger and larger until you end up with dragons. And once there is an expansion the game has to come up with something like Super-Dragons and then Ultra-Dragons.
Or the high level mobs look just the same and are mysteriously much more powerful than their low level counterparts.
(you offer no solution so i armed with my rusty dagger am supposed to be fighting dragons to levl ? no thanks)
10.) It makes the game unnecessary complicated for players and designers alike:
As you see in point 7, levelling up does not really change anything. In the end the level is just a label that shows what mobs you should fight at the moment.
So if the level is not much more then an achievement, why not make it an achievement. Display it to other players to show how much you have already achieved in the game, but don’t have it change your stats.
If there was no vertical progression it would just remove one unnecessary variable from the game. The player would not have to juggle with absurd high stat values; and all the content would be the same level of difficulty for everyone and therefore easier to manage. Instead of high and low level zones there could be zones that offer easier or harder content.
so once people are done with your quests preety much all they have left is pvp? bleh No thanks
Now dont get me wrong everquest became guilty of some of your points endless aas, super rats,gear inflation but the damn games been around since 1999, it should of been overhauled and rebooted along time ago
....Do you not understand what the OP is saying? I'm guessing you didn't even read his post.
What do you do in a vertical progression game once you're done with the "quests"? Nothing. The game is done.
What do you do when you've reached the max of your horizontal progression? You can go back and do the "newbie" zones all you want, because you don't level up to the point where content becomes useless.
Lol in vertical progression games you can reroll a new char and do diffrent newbie zones with a new class
why would you want to do the newbie zones with the same class ? just reroll a new class its more fun learning them + playing the newbie zones
....Do you not understand what the OP is saying? I'm guessing you didn't even read his post.
What do you do in a vertical progression game once you're done with the "quests"? Nothing. The game is done.
What do you do when you've reached the max of your horizontal progression? You can go back and do the "newbie" zones all you want, because you don't level up to the point where content becomes useless.
Yes. So? Move onto the next game.
Every game is "done" at some point.
Lastly, going back to the newbie zone is repeating content. Content is limited in any game, vertical or not. You can always do what D3 is doing .. have a "harder" game mode that you can use your newly found vertical power. Problem solved.
Originally posted by Sengi(your points might be true in some games but not all)
Now onto the 10 reasons why is vertical progression bad in a MMO: (thats your opinion)
1.) It keeps players from enjoying the game content:
(maybe so but it also lets people enjoy the conmtent whos going to help with the cities rat problem if everyone goes right to dragons if dragons are starter mobs theyre not very epic now are they ?)
Vertical progression reduces all game content just to a means to an end. You are not doing it in the first place because you enjoy what you’re doing but because you want the reward.
(for some people yes)
2.) It splits the player base:( False theres a thing called alts, and many games allow mentoring)
Everyone likes to play with his friends, but you can’t do that if they are on another level then you. If there is no vertical progression everyone can join everyone else no matter how long he is already playing.
(and no one knows who knows how to play at least with levels you have some idea)
3.) It often leads to boring content:(i dont know what games you played but i had a blast in everquest killing rats gnolls and skeletons, dragons and giants are for the big boys and i wanted to be one but you got to earn it theres no accomplishment if its given to you)
4.) It leads to linear content:(mostly fase it doesnt have to be that way eq had several major routes to level and many other lesser known options), but theres nothing wrong with linear)
5.) It creates problems for pvp:(only if the developers are dumb its called instanced arena combat go look up nwn online no one fights anyone much higher, open world pvp sucks anyway)
6.) It lends itself to exploitive game design:(skinner box what in the name of marr is that ?)
As you might know, many games rely on skinner-box-mechanics to force you to grind through boring content. If the developer wants to force the players to grind, this is done much more effectively when the player needs to level up to see the rest of the game, instead of having him grind for a skill that won’t make him more powerful and is not mandatory.
7.) Levelling up does not change the gameplay:( false comepletely false i played a mage in eq when we got rageing servent it comepletely changed my playstyle)
When you level up it may feel like you archived something, before you notice that the only thing that changed was that you now can pass on to the next location where you fight slightly stronger differed coloured mobs. The game has just switched some numbers around. Dealing 5 points pf damage to a mob with 20 hp, is not differed then dealing 10 damage to one with 40 hp.
Some people have told me that it is fun to them to go back to a low level zone and steamroller everything there. But c’mon how long is it fun, to torture virtual ants with a magnifying glass that don’t even run away, for 2 minutes maybe?
8.) It locks players out of higher level content: (quests or levels boith take timne and quests require more effort on the devs and doing this imo would lead to boooreing quests or just quests that take as long as leveling would anyway id rather camp what i want to)
Low level players can’t enter all the zones because they won’t last there very long. This helps to structure a storyline. The hero has first to fight the minions in the lower zones and gather xp and then he can enter the lair of the main villain.
(its called anticipation if i can see everything right away.../yawn)
9.) It creates a Dragonball-Z-problem:( dont make fun of dbz bro just dont go there)
With every level the mobs you fight get higher stats, so they need to look more menacing too. Therefore the game starts as low as possible with lame opponents like rats and then makes the mobs larger and larger until you end up with dragons. And once there is an expansion the game has to come up with something like Super-Dragons and then Ultra-Dragons.
Or the high level mobs look just the same and are mysteriously much more powerful than their low level counterparts.
(you offer no solution so i armed with my rusty dagger am supposed to be fighting dragons to levl ? no thanks)
10.) It makes the game unnecessary complicated for players and designers alike:
As you see in point 7, levelling up does not really change anything. In the end the level is just a label that shows what mobs you should fight at the moment.
So if the level is not much more then an achievement, why not make it an achievement. Display it to other players to show how much you have already achieved in the game, but don’t have it change your stats.
If there was no vertical progression it would just remove one unnecessary variable from the game. The player would not have to juggle with absurd high stat values; and all the content would be the same level of difficulty for everyone and therefore easier to manage. Instead of high and low level zones there could be zones that offer easier or harder content.
so once people are done with your quests preety much all they have left is pvp? bleh No thanks
Now dont get me wrong everquest became guilty of some of your points endless aas, super rats,gear inflation but the damn games been around since 1999, it should of been overhauled and rebooted along time ago
....Do you not understand what the OP is saying? I'm guessing you didn't even read his post.
What do you do in a vertical progression game once you're done with the "quests"? Nothing. The game is done.
What do you do when you've reached the max of your horizontal progression? You can go back and do the "newbie" zones all you want, because you don't level up to the point where content becomes useless.
Lol in vertical progression games you can reroll a new char and do diffrent newbie zones with a new class
why would you want to do the newbie zones with the same class ? just reroll a new class its more fun learning them + playing the newbie zones
Because people don't reroll new characters often. Newbie zones become totally barren and unused in vertical progression games. In horizontal, people stick around because there are things they find of use in the newbie zones, so areas of the game never get entirely deserted. Besides, it's a lot more fun to come back to old areas with a bunch of new toys to play with, rather than start from zero for the 20th time.
Originally posted by jalexbrown It's all nice and great that you can tell us what's wrong with the way things are being done right now (everyone can, or else this forum would be dead), but you don't propose anything as a solution beyond a simple definition of horizontal progression. Are you willing to outline and open to all of our critique a possible design plan built around horizontal progression?
Yeah pointing out the flaws in a system isn't very hard. We all do it The people who can actually come up with something better and trick people into trying it before they judge it bad..... are few and far between
Horizontal progression in a mmorpg is like getting a promotion at work that is a new title and more work but without a raise in salary!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by jalexbrown It's all nice and great that you can tell us what's wrong with the way things are being done right now (everyone can, or else this forum would be dead), but you don't propose anything as a solution beyond a simple definition of horizontal progression. Are you willing to outline and open to all of our critique a possible design plan built around horizontal progression?
Yeah pointing out the flaws in a system isn't very hard. We all do it The people who can actually come up with something better and trick people into trying it before they judge it bad..... are few and far between
Horizontal progression in a mmorpg is like getting a promotion at work that is a new title and more work but without a raise in salary!
Lol, vertical progression would be getting a 15% raise in work but also having your living expenses raised by 15% to make your raise absolutely useless. We can do this all day.
Originally posted by jalexbrown It's all nice and great that you can tell us what's wrong with the way things are being done right now (everyone can, or else this forum would be dead), but you don't propose anything as a solution beyond a simple definition of horizontal progression. Are you willing to outline and open to all of our critique a possible design plan built around horizontal progression?
Yeah pointing out the flaws in a system isn't very hard. We all do it The people who can actually come up with something better and trick people into trying it before they judge it bad..... are few and far between
Horizontal progression in a mmorpg is like getting a promotion at work that is a new title and more work but without a raise in salary!
Funny that you say that with Camelot Unchained in your sig, which is entirely horizontal progression based.
Horizontal progression is = you get slightly better, but a new player who is good at the game always stands a chance against you, but you've got a whole stable of toys to play with and he only has one gun.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Because people don't reroll new characters often.
Seriously...?
Originally posted by DavisFlight Newbie zones become totally barren and unused in vertical progression games. In horizontal, people stick around because there are things they find of use in the newbie zones, so areas of the game never get entirely deserted. Besides, it's a lot more fun to come back to old areas with a bunch of new toys to play with, rather than start from zero for the 20th time.
Your point is moot, every content becomes boring after certain time and that is where the advantage of vertical progression comes in - less repetition.
Because people don't reroll new characters often. Newbie zones become totally barren and unused in vertical progression games. In horizontal, people stick around because there are things they find of use in the newbie zones, so areas of the game never get entirely deserted. Besides, it's a lot more fun to come back to old areas with a bunch of new toys to play with, rather than start from zero for the 20th time.
You have to use it at least once .. when you are a newbie.
People don't reroll .. but they have alts. You know that, right? Every player is going through newbie zones multiple times because of alts. In fact, most are sick of the newbie zones after 3-4 alts. Newbie zones are not underused.
Originally posted by jalexbrown It's all nice and great that you can tell us what's wrong with the way things are being done right now (everyone can, or else this forum would be dead), but you don't propose anything as a solution beyond a simple definition of horizontal progression. Are you willing to outline and open to all of our critique a possible design plan built around horizontal progression?
They already exist. Here are some:
Puzzle Pirates
EVE Online
Ultima Online
Almost any social sandbox (There, vMTV, Kaneva, Sociolotron, Red Light Center, Second Life)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because people don't reroll new characters often. Newbie zones become totally barren and unused in vertical progression games. In horizontal, people stick around because there are things they find of use in the newbie zones, so areas of the game never get entirely deserted. Besides, it's a lot more fun to come back to old areas with a bunch of new toys to play with, rather than start from zero for the 20th time.
You have to use it at least once .. when you are a newbie.
People don't reroll .. but they have alts. You know that, right? Every player is going through newbie zones multiple times because of alts. In fact, most are sick of the newbie zones after 3-4 alts. Newbie zones are not underused.
Or the other idea...
Make newbie zones "zones where new players start" but don't make them exclusively for new players.
So there is enough content that new players can level and then leave but there is additional content which higher level players can use.
I saw this in EQ once. There was a starter dungeon which I easily out levelled and of course could move on. However, I did find a "hatch" that led to a much higher level area.
I don't see why an area can't have a "dungeon" or "whatever" that very high level players couldn't go to. Heck, you would then have high level players mixing with low level players, helping them out, answering questions, providing inspiration for low level players, etc.
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I play MMORPGs for their progression systems, and generally speaking out had to be something that either increases the power or options available to my Avatar. Unlike the OP I think GW 2 (and 1) were entirely the wrong way to take the genre, and in fact I don't consider either to be proper MMORPGs.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Nah .. some don't. TOR is much better off without a persistent world.
First reply and the thread just may end there.
I can't even....
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I agree though that doesn't have to be true with vertical progression.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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For those interested on one path to take with horizontal progress, GW2 recently released this blog that covers that in part...
For example:
New Skill and Traits
We’ll begin regularly adding new skills and traits to the game for each profession to expand your characters and builds! You will be able to earn these new traits and skills by unlocking them. To go along with this, we’ll expand the content and options to earn skill points to help encourage players to experience different challenges and content throughout the world. These skills and traits will be designed to be balanced with the existing skills/traits we currently have in the game, and will simply compliment and expand the range of abilities and tactics available to each profession. Both WvW and PvE players can acquire skills and traits, and additional means of earning skill points will be addressed for both core content areas.
The regular addition of skills and traits that you can earn as you play provides us an extremely stable, easily expandable reward system that fits neatly into the pillars of progression and advancement that Guild Wars 2 are all about. Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.
In addition to what's mentioned above, they're also working on allowing all weapon types for all professions. The thought of a mesmer with a two-handed hammer intrigues me...
Oderint, dum metuant.
so once people are done with your quests preety much all they have left is pvp? bleh No thanks
Now dont get me wrong everquest became guilty of some of your points endless aas, super rats,gear inflation but the damn games been around since 1999, it should of been overhauled and rebooted along time ago
these statistics are worthless without more info like how many people play games at all?
are these people just to busy ? maybe they jsut dont have a clue about mmos its not hard for people to be ignoreant of an entire genre
how many people are being entertained as much as they want to be they have no reason to try anything else
some places place heavy restrictions on their internet use, like north korea irc they can only use their in country internet
More people might play mmos if they tried, but if their already star craft freaks or fps gurus. they arent gunna try
I rather like the ability to customize my skills as I level rather than just getting statistically better versions.
Ya know?
Maybe my instant nuke with a large CD applies a root, or a dot, or resets the CD on a teleport, etc. But I want to make sure the route I've taken is visually suggested on my character. If I'm going the burning dot route as a fire mage I want to be more flamey... etc.
It's pretty self explanatory what horizontal progression is, and many games have done it, to great effect.
So you're saying you prefer horizontal to vertical, right? Because that's what you just described.
....Do you not understand what the OP is saying? I'm guessing you didn't even read his post.
What do you do in a vertical progression game once you're done with the "quests"? Nothing. The game is done.
What do you do when you've reached the max of your horizontal progression? You can go back and do the "newbie" zones all you want, because you don't level up to the point where content becomes useless.
Lol in vertical progression games you can reroll a new char and do diffrent newbie zones with a new class
why would you want to do the newbie zones with the same class ? just reroll a new class its more fun learning them + playing the newbie zones
Yes. So? Move onto the next game.
Every game is "done" at some point.
Lastly, going back to the newbie zone is repeating content. Content is limited in any game, vertical or not. You can always do what D3 is doing .. have a "harder" game mode that you can use your newly found vertical power. Problem solved.
Because people don't reroll new characters often. Newbie zones become totally barren and unused in vertical progression games. In horizontal, people stick around because there are things they find of use in the newbie zones, so areas of the game never get entirely deserted. Besides, it's a lot more fun to come back to old areas with a bunch of new toys to play with, rather than start from zero for the 20th time.
Horizontal progression in a mmorpg is like getting a promotion at work that is a new title and more work but without a raise in salary!
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Lol, vertical progression would be getting a 15% raise in work but also having your living expenses raised by 15% to make your raise absolutely useless. We can do this all day.
Funny that you say that with Camelot Unchained in your sig, which is entirely horizontal progression based.
Horizontal progression is = you get slightly better, but a new player who is good at the game always stands a chance against you, but you've got a whole stable of toys to play with and he only has one gun.
Seriously...?
Your point is moot, every content becomes boring after certain time and that is where the advantage of vertical progression comes in - less repetition.
You have to use it at least once .. when you are a newbie.
People don't reroll .. but they have alts. You know that, right? Every player is going through newbie zones multiple times because of alts. In fact, most are sick of the newbie zones after 3-4 alts. Newbie zones are not underused.
They already exist. Here are some:
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Or the other idea...
Make newbie zones "zones where new players start" but don't make them exclusively for new players.
So there is enough content that new players can level and then leave but there is additional content which higher level players can use.
I saw this in EQ once. There was a starter dungeon which I easily out levelled and of course could move on. However, I did find a "hatch" that led to a much higher level area.
I don't see why an area can't have a "dungeon" or "whatever" that very high level players couldn't go to. Heck, you would then have high level players mixing with low level players, helping them out, answering questions, providing inspiration for low level players, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon