In a game that's trying to balance fun and challenge for a large amount of people, along with technical capability, I find soft locking to be functionally a pretty comfortable concept.
So I'd lean towards reticule style combat, while noting that it's not a shooter style mechanic that is driving how the reticule works. This is more or less how some of the action MMOs out already work, though it sees varying degrees of tolerance and success based on how responsive and how 'tight' it feels.
An example of it somewhat done 'wrong' might be referenced in Tabula Rasa, where the game presented itself much in th same way as a reticule based combat system, but you could still tab to enemies that were more or less parallel to you and shoot them.
It caused quite a bit of a response form players feeling the game was a poor system for a game where most people were using guns. I enjoyed it myself, but I did feel that it was a bit 'loose' as far as targeting a foe went.
People have already commented on the matter of challenge, so I'll just note the feel. The thing I like about reticule style combat, even in soft locks, is that it makes the play feel closer to to the character. When I simply tab and watch my character go, there's a much more obvious disconnect for me.
If we can bridge that gap with a system that can give me an experience that is ever so much closer to a one to one translation of my actions into the game, then I am happier. Reticule combat helps me get a bit closer to that feeling, and for that I prefer it.
This might not be a universal notion, but that's my opinion at any rate.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Originally posted by Zooce How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire? Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?
For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.
Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.
The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Reticule combat far exceeds tab target in every way shape and form. It takes way more skill. Tab target all you have to do is manage your action bar. Reticule you have to manage your action bar, your position constantly and your aim.
"Oops I tabbed the wrong target" if that happens in any tab target game you are rollin with some seriously bad players. Especially with assist target commands and target of target etc.
Where as in an MMO like TERA. Just the mob moving slightly can cause hell on your party. Attacks don't follow the target like they would in a tab Target if the mob moves a bit. In a game like TERA you have to make sure that Fireblast or Thunderstrike hits only the targets you want it to via positioning and aiming. Or your CC lands and the mob/player doesn't dodge it before it goes off. Not tab and auto hit with every CC/dmging move.
You think rotation and dps can be difficult in tab target on bosses... Yeah keep your deeps up on a moving target that your abilities dont track for you. Constantly dodging mob attacks that can one shot you at any moment. Yea...
TERA has FF to a degree as well. If you are trying to help someone outlawed or a friend that isnt in your party etc can get ugly if you aren't careful.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
If the game is TACTICAL, then yes, sure tab mashing, f-key slappin might be the way to go, esp when as time goes by(and u get deeper into end game) the WRONG action can turn the tide in your opponents favor. Eve is an example of this. Eve WORKS as a tab masher(Cuz anyone who has played even knows that mindlessly mashing the tab key and slapping uour guns on is just plain stupid)
But if the game is ACTION, tab mashing, drooling retard facerolling accross the keyboard DOES NOT mean your 'more skilfull' because you have '+10 sword of superdoom' and 'more skills to mash at once' or 'can write better macro's' or 'has right character skill generator to plan out the perfect toon'
no none of that is SKILL. Yes it takes some thought to plan out what to get in what slots, but in most cases, just having 'derp derp da bigger numbars' means you win. Simple as that.
With twitch based games where your LIMITED in your selection of skills, where gear means less, yet STILL means something (As in you have to choose WHAT to slot into which gear space to best fit your abilities), the ability to not only react and 'dodge' when needed, but the ability to also JUDGE when its best to dodge or not.
Old folks who take 15 seconds to react to that dragon rearing up to breath fire, should stick with single player old style turn based 'the dragon rears up and begins to breath fire, what will you do?' -- give you plenty of time to scratch your bed-sore ridden arse from sitting in that chair the last 22 hours, or peel yourself out of said chair to head to the cupboard to get yourself your cheezo's and mountain dew, or type out a 3 paragraph instruction manual to your buddies all raging at you for taking forever to finish your turn... (LOL yea I had fun with this last paragraph)
I am nearing 40. I ain't no teeniebopper, I am not a counterstrike kiddie, I value thought, tactics, intelligence, and planning, but when I PLAY a game, I WANT the game to get my blood rolling, i want to test my limits at hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc(at least somewhat, I don't want to be over-tested lol) - Point is, all tab target, skill-key mashing games I have played, or know of, are SKILLLESS, as in it takes ZERO SKILL, both in tacitcs, planning, reaction times, thought, etc, to play. What makes them worse is the (Seemingly global problem of all games) *GET QUEST HERE* icons or autoroute functions, etc, which just dumb games down so much. -- With games like wow, u can 'bypass' any need of any 'skill' with better gear, skill planners, macro's, etc. The amount of mental thought needed to play is near zero. The amount of hand eue coordination is even less. It all comes down to 'DERP DERP MOB DERP DERP FACEROLL KEYBOARD DERP DERP HJEEEEEAAAL DERP DERP' (Hell, most times u don't even have to worry about facing the mob)
I prefer TAB for fantasy mmos (which I often click on stuff anyway, unless I am in a group assisting), action is fine for a FPS. I do not like the mouse being locked though, seems to take away a great PC tool when it is.
Start it at 11:50 for the better part of the video.
Note: These fights are on the easiest setting and the instance itself isn't very hard in itself compared to some of the other Raids/instances.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!
Both, as different systems work better for different styles of play.
TAB targeting for RPG purposes (easier to communicate, less immersion breaking form of communication).
Voice chat/Twitch for PVP gaming. More fun as far as game-play goes, though it doesn't make a game better by itself. I've actually had the most fun in old school tab targeting games that focused on community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There genuinely is a difference in how tightly different players want to be pulling the strings, between players who want to micromanage the character's every twitch as if a spirit possessing the body and players who simply want to whisper in the character's ear and watch what unfolds as an aloof observer. Different targeting systems appeal to different points along that curve of control: point the weapon vs choose the target.
Originally posted by ReallyNow10 Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.
If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.
If you're talking in the middle of a fight it's rather clear the content is pretty weak for a challenge perspective. The primary reason most people in guilds use voice comms is to avoid having to type as it's a liability under ANY system. While public voice is craziness it's pretty standard in guilds that have any inclination to face a challenge.
Using reticules and "action" style combat creates a lot of small nuances of very simple things like movement, timing and precision that make a BIG deal. Once you get into tab targeting I have to ask the question why do you need the game to do something so basic yet integral in combat such as targeting? It's usually because they've added excessive complexity to skills. For example if you look at something like WoW or Rift where you have many hotbars worth of skills most of which you don't even use regularly. I ask you what takes more skill from the player? Memorizing a rotation of 15 different abilities or having to actively adjust your reticule against a moving target to land even the most basic attacks? Considering you could just get even get addons to tell you what the rotation you need to use is I'd rather go with the reticule and ensure player skill is properly rewarded.
As an aside if the game is supposed to be played more strategically or tactically(something like EVE) a tab targeting system is ok since the actual combat is less of an issue than the end result.
Action combat doesn't have a place in MMORPGs at this point in time. We just don't have the technology, or the infrastructure to offer a quality gaming experience.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
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Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
tera bams n bosses get a bit faster towards the end, but ultimately i agree with you (solo content in tera is...)
As to the topic itself, neither breaks the game for me, but here are some aspects to them.
Tab-targetting: requires generally a bit less concentration and the screen can seem a bit stagnant if compared directly. Easier to track aoe's and other stuff during fights. Less problems with lag.
Reticule: constant moving of the screen can get tiresome. Soft-targeting helps this but greatly diminishes the skill involved. Having to actually follow the target might increase immersion for some, but the constant movement might decrease it for some. More vulnerable to lag.
Ultimately the tactics aren't affected and both combats can be effectively fast enough. I tend to think both have their demands.
Personally I think tab-targetting allows for faster combat without the fight getting too chaotic. For some of us, too much chaos => head aches / stress => not fun:D E.g. tera endgame bosses fast movement with oneshot mechanisms that you just need to learn through repetition.. well.. of course many find that fun too as it can be considered challenging:)
say what you like about STO's ground combat, but the option to do either tab-targeting or reticule-aiming is still fairly progressive as far as options are concerned. rightly maligned from the start, that aspect of STO has, in fact, improved dramatically in the last three years.
perfect?---no. but as far as having the choice for whatever my mood or requirements are at the time?---yes.
I prefer tab-targeting over action based because I'm not looking for challenge in MMORPG, but more of the social aspect like the good old Dungeons and Dragons tabletop gaming with friends in the basement. If I want action, I would just go play sport.
With tab-targeting, I can control character with one hand while having drinks and snacks on the other. It's a much relaxing gaming environment.
It is a complete different game design aspect target different type of audience, and both has it place in the world.
Originally posted by Zooce How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire? Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?
Eve.
it doesn't have any sense of 'friendly'. if you target a ship and hit the 'remote armor repair' module it will 'heal' it. friendly ? hostile ? neutral ? npc ? the module doesn't know the difference. it does as it's told. Same with guns. you tell it to shoot it shoots.
in fact a frindly dreadnaught got doomsdayed yesterday in Dreklein.
That is awesome! One thing I miss from my D&D days is that our DM was big on friendly fire. It added so much to the combat and decisions to be made by the group.
[EDIT] GRATZ! Mkilbride, on the Spotlight post!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The Secret World has both options.They both come in handy imo.Reticule helps mix things up a bit and keeps things fresh.For my play style it also lets me pick a target faster.
I think MMO's would benefit by following Funcom's lead by incorporating both options.That way people can choose whatever style they want.
a win win
er... ya... no.
TSW's 'action reticule' option is ... trash. Its a quick cut n' paste some random code into game to make it LOOK like action, but it is in fact NOT at all 'reticule based combat'
For most things you still have to drop to free mouse to manage. And aside from all that, its clunky as hell, and the camera is forced off to the right of your character(which imo, is shitty 'mouse look' and I wish devs would STOP giving that over-the-sholder as our only option.)
What TSW delivers on is a very decent story, a unique 'world' and atmosphere, and some really neat options when getting skills. What it does NOT deliver on is any real 'skill' based combat. During the beta(and the very, very recent 'trial' i just did this morning) 99% of people can get by with the ol' 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1,3 and to spice it up now and then, a 4, 5 or maybe a 6. I mean its great if u want to wear out only the first few keys on your keyboard, but other than that...
*But even saying that, and even with how much I detest tab facemash keyboard games, I would suggest anyone give TSW a run, at least for the trial, the game DOES deserve to be played*
Reticule aiming should be left to single player and ffps games. The biggest problem with reticule is it kills the healer class which in turn makes the game too easy to solo with any class and that is not what a mmorpg should be.
I'm not a fan of losing control of my camera just to attack something. I also disable 'smart camera' in games as well, since often strategic play involves watching your back while performing an action with your character. Camera targeting isn't more difficult, it's just annoying.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I see alot of threads about how reticule is the future of MMORPGs, that action combat requires more skill and somehow has more depth. That all MMORPG's should adopt such a system.
I personally don't believe this. I thought it was so, years ago when Vindictus game out, I was super amazed, and Reticule can be very fun. However MMORPG's really are meant for the long-haul and I find it can become tiring after awhile, being constantly vigilant. You got a scratch? You can't or you die. You wanna eat a snack while grouping? Can't. Wanna mindlessly grind some task? Can't.
^^^This is, imo, the only real weakness of action/reticule based combat when compared to tab-targeting. You simply can not stop to type something in chat. It also keeps your eyes away from the chat box, meaning that even when people ARE talking, you don't glance down to see it.
Then there is also the debate about how it's more "skill based." one could make this argument, but I disagree again. I am a lover of games like Jedi Academy, Devil May Cry, Chivalry, Mount & Blade. But really it becomes almost the same after awhile. Press keys 1-4 for your attacks, or RMB / LMB top perform a combo. It ends up just being as monotone as Tab target can be - except you've got to put alot energy into it.
For trash mobs, sure. For Dante Must Die, well designed dungeons, and challenging material, not so much.
Tab target on the other hand, allows for better animations, more interesting skills, and depth that you can't have with action based combat. They both have their ups and downs, but after years of believing how action combat such as Vindictus was going to revolutionize the MMORPG, and how it must be more skill based, I've played alot of new MMOs since then and changed my opinion on the matter.
Extremely subjective. What I will say is that tab-targeting allows for more community building...Combat is much slower, or "tactical", which leaves plenty of time for talking in chat.
Both require skill. That's why I dislike fans of reticule who say they won't play a MMO without "action combat", because it's not skill based. I also dislike fans of tab target who won't do action combat because they say they don't want twitch based skill in a game. One requires dexterity, the other theoretical thinking. Both require their own type of skill, neither is more skill based in the end, I find.
What are your thoughts?
In general, I think that action-combat MMOs provide much better potential gameplay at the cost of community building via chat. They are more akin to console action games (full discloser: I prefer more action in games).
Tab-targeting games offer much slower gameplay, which allows for more community building via chat.
I use vent, so I feel that I get the best gameplay and community building tools...maybe action games simply need better voice chat? Idk.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Tab-target for gaming with heavy RP, oh wait no one does that...so I'm going to vote for reticle..since the tab combat is to fast to type-chat anymore anyways.
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
Wrong. I made it to endgame in TSW was a quality 10.4 Blood Magic Build for PVP/PVE.
Derp derp most of TSW is built around solo, and what was meant for a group of 2/3, a blood magic user of decent build could solo it pretty easy. The later instances obviously not since they were meant for quality 10.
So you played through the easy mode of TERA and decided it didn't require any skill. Because BoL and SM were the L2P dungeons. I would love to see anyone go through Manaya's Core one time and not wipe, or AC, or even CoF on tier 2/3. Kelsaiks would make most people dump their pants.
Literally the only difficulty in TSW is making a decent build. The Investigations were fun and difficult on the mind in certain aspects, but that isn't skill. That is intelligence and knowledge. The actual encounters were seriously easy.
TERA you have dodging that is constant. TSW you would dodge every now and again. TERA has collision giving another aspect to large group content and coordination. You have active blocking on your tanks. Healers that don't watch the UI and actually have to get in close and personal to get off their biggest heals. You get hit once or twice in TERA at endgame and you are dead.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Comments
In a game that's trying to balance fun and challenge for a large amount of people, along with technical capability, I find soft locking to be functionally a pretty comfortable concept.
So I'd lean towards reticule style combat, while noting that it's not a shooter style mechanic that is driving how the reticule works. This is more or less how some of the action MMOs out already work, though it sees varying degrees of tolerance and success based on how responsive and how 'tight' it feels.
An example of it somewhat done 'wrong' might be referenced in Tabula Rasa, where the game presented itself much in th same way as a reticule based combat system, but you could still tab to enemies that were more or less parallel to you and shoot them.
It caused quite a bit of a response form players feeling the game was a poor system for a game where most people were using guns. I enjoyed it myself, but I did feel that it was a bit 'loose' as far as targeting a foe went.
People have already commented on the matter of challenge, so I'll just note the feel. The thing I like about reticule style combat, even in soft locks, is that it makes the play feel closer to to the character. When I simply tab and watch my character go, there's a much more obvious disconnect for me.
If we can bridge that gap with a system that can give me an experience that is ever so much closer to a one to one translation of my actions into the game, then I am happier. Reticule combat helps me get a bit closer to that feeling, and for that I prefer it.
This might not be a universal notion, but that's my opinion at any rate.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.
Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.
The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Reticule combat far exceeds tab target in every way shape and form. It takes way more skill. Tab target all you have to do is manage your action bar. Reticule you have to manage your action bar, your position constantly and your aim.
"Oops I tabbed the wrong target" if that happens in any tab target game you are rollin with some seriously bad players. Especially with assist target commands and target of target etc.
Where as in an MMO like TERA. Just the mob moving slightly can cause hell on your party. Attacks don't follow the target like they would in a tab Target if the mob moves a bit. In a game like TERA you have to make sure that Fireblast or Thunderstrike hits only the targets you want it to via positioning and aiming. Or your CC lands and the mob/player doesn't dodge it before it goes off. Not tab and auto hit with every CC/dmging move.
You think rotation and dps can be difficult in tab target on bosses... Yeah keep your deeps up on a moving target that your abilities dont track for you. Constantly dodging mob attacks that can one shot you at any moment. Yea...
TERA has FF to a degree as well. If you are trying to help someone outlawed or a friend that isnt in your party etc can get ugly if you aren't careful.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
If the game is TACTICAL, then yes, sure tab mashing, f-key slappin might be the way to go, esp when as time goes by(and u get deeper into end game) the WRONG action can turn the tide in your opponents favor. Eve is an example of this. Eve WORKS as a tab masher(Cuz anyone who has played even knows that mindlessly mashing the tab key and slapping uour guns on is just plain stupid)
But if the game is ACTION, tab mashing, drooling retard facerolling accross the keyboard DOES NOT mean your 'more skilfull' because you have '+10 sword of superdoom' and 'more skills to mash at once' or 'can write better macro's' or 'has right character skill generator to plan out the perfect toon'
no none of that is SKILL. Yes it takes some thought to plan out what to get in what slots, but in most cases, just having 'derp derp da bigger numbars' means you win. Simple as that.
With twitch based games where your LIMITED in your selection of skills, where gear means less, yet STILL means something (As in you have to choose WHAT to slot into which gear space to best fit your abilities), the ability to not only react and 'dodge' when needed, but the ability to also JUDGE when its best to dodge or not.
Old folks who take 15 seconds to react to that dragon rearing up to breath fire, should stick with single player old style turn based 'the dragon rears up and begins to breath fire, what will you do?' -- give you plenty of time to scratch your bed-sore ridden arse from sitting in that chair the last 22 hours, or peel yourself out of said chair to head to the cupboard to get yourself your cheezo's and mountain dew, or type out a 3 paragraph instruction manual to your buddies all raging at you for taking forever to finish your turn... (LOL yea I had fun with this last paragraph)
I am nearing 40. I ain't no teeniebopper, I am not a counterstrike kiddie, I value thought, tactics, intelligence, and planning, but when I PLAY a game, I WANT the game to get my blood rolling, i want to test my limits at hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc(at least somewhat, I don't want to be over-tested lol) - Point is, all tab target, skill-key mashing games I have played, or know of, are SKILLLESS, as in it takes ZERO SKILL, both in tacitcs, planning, reaction times, thought, etc, to play. What makes them worse is the (Seemingly global problem of all games) *GET QUEST HERE* icons or autoroute functions, etc, which just dumb games down so much. -- With games like wow, u can 'bypass' any need of any 'skill' with better gear, skill planners, macro's, etc. The amount of mental thought needed to play is near zero. The amount of hand eue coordination is even less. It all comes down to 'DERP DERP MOB DERP DERP FACEROLL KEYBOARD DERP DERP HJEEEEEAAAL DERP DERP' (Hell, most times u don't even have to worry about facing the mob)
I prefer TAB for fantasy mmos (which I often click on stuff anyway, unless I am in a group assisting), action is fine for a FPS. I do not like the mouse being locked though, seems to take away a great PC tool when it is.
Start it at 11:50 for the better part of the video.
Note: These fights are on the easiest setting and the instance itself isn't very hard in itself compared to some of the other Raids/instances.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
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Both, as different systems work better for different styles of play.
TAB targeting for RPG purposes (easier to communicate, less immersion breaking form of communication).
Voice chat/Twitch for PVP gaming. More fun as far as game-play goes, though it doesn't make a game better by itself. I've actually had the most fun in old school tab targeting games that focused on community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There genuinely is a difference in how tightly different players want to be pulling the strings, between players who want to micromanage the character's every twitch as if a spirit possessing the body and players who simply want to whisper in the character's ear and watch what unfolds as an aloof observer. Different targeting systems appeal to different points along that curve of control: point the weapon vs choose the target.
Using reticules and "action" style combat creates a lot of small nuances of very simple things like movement, timing and precision that make a BIG deal. Once you get into tab targeting I have to ask the question why do you need the game to do something so basic yet integral in combat such as targeting? It's usually because they've added excessive complexity to skills. For example if you look at something like WoW or Rift where you have many hotbars worth of skills most of which you don't even use regularly. I ask you what takes more skill from the player? Memorizing a rotation of 15 different abilities or having to actively adjust your reticule against a moving target to land even the most basic attacks? Considering you could just get even get addons to tell you what the rotation you need to use is I'd rather go with the reticule and ensure player skill is properly rewarded.
As an aside if the game is supposed to be played more strategically or tactically(something like EVE) a tab targeting system is ok since the actual combat is less of an issue than the end result.
Drekor Silverfang
The Shipwrecked Pirates
Action combat doesn't have a place in MMORPGs at this point in time. We just don't have the technology, or the infrastructure to offer a quality gaming experience.
tera bams n bosses get a bit faster towards the end, but ultimately i agree with you (solo content in tera is...)
As to the topic itself, neither breaks the game for me, but here are some aspects to them.
Tab-targetting: requires generally a bit less concentration and the screen can seem a bit stagnant if compared directly. Easier to track aoe's and other stuff during fights. Less problems with lag.
Reticule: constant moving of the screen can get tiresome. Soft-targeting helps this but greatly diminishes the skill involved. Having to actually follow the target might increase immersion for some, but the constant movement might decrease it for some. More vulnerable to lag.
Ultimately the tactics aren't affected and both combats can be effectively fast enough. I tend to think both have their demands.
Personally I think tab-targetting allows for faster combat without the fight getting too chaotic. For some of us, too much chaos => head aches / stress => not fun:D E.g. tera endgame bosses fast movement with oneshot mechanisms that you just need to learn through repetition.. well.. of course many find that fun too as it can be considered challenging:)
say what you like about STO's ground combat, but the option to do either tab-targeting or reticule-aiming is still fairly progressive as far as options are concerned. rightly maligned from the start, that aspect of STO has, in fact, improved dramatically in the last three years.
perfect?---no. but as far as having the choice for whatever my mood or requirements are at the time?---yes.
I prefer tab-targeting over action based because I'm not looking for challenge in MMORPG, but more of the social aspect like the good old Dungeons and Dragons tabletop gaming with friends in the basement. If I want action, I would just go play sport.
With tab-targeting, I can control character with one hand while having drinks and snacks on the other. It's a much relaxing gaming environment.
It is a complete different game design aspect target different type of audience, and both has it place in the world.
[EDIT]
GRATZ! Mkilbride, on the Spotlight post!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
er... ya... no.
TSW's 'action reticule' option is ... trash. Its a quick cut n' paste some random code into game to make it LOOK like action, but it is in fact NOT at all 'reticule based combat'
For most things you still have to drop to free mouse to manage. And aside from all that, its clunky as hell, and the camera is forced off to the right of your character(which imo, is shitty 'mouse look' and I wish devs would STOP giving that over-the-sholder as our only option.)
What TSW delivers on is a very decent story, a unique 'world' and atmosphere, and some really neat options when getting skills. What it does NOT deliver on is any real 'skill' based combat. During the beta(and the very, very recent 'trial' i just did this morning) 99% of people can get by with the ol' 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1,3 and to spice it up now and then, a 4, 5 or maybe a 6. I mean its great if u want to wear out only the first few keys on your keyboard, but other than that...
*But even saying that, and even with how much I detest tab facemash keyboard games, I would suggest anyone give TSW a run, at least for the trial, the game DOES deserve to be played*
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
In general, I think that action-combat MMOs provide much better potential gameplay at the cost of community building via chat. They are more akin to console action games (full discloser: I prefer more action in games).
Tab-targeting games offer much slower gameplay, which allows for more community building via chat.
I use vent, so I feel that I get the best gameplay and community building tools...maybe action games simply need better voice chat? Idk.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
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Wrong. I made it to endgame in TSW was a quality 10.4 Blood Magic Build for PVP/PVE.
Derp derp most of TSW is built around solo, and what was meant for a group of 2/3, a blood magic user of decent build could solo it pretty easy. The later instances obviously not since they were meant for quality 10.
So you played through the easy mode of TERA and decided it didn't require any skill. Because BoL and SM were the L2P dungeons. I would love to see anyone go through Manaya's Core one time and not wipe, or AC, or even CoF on tier 2/3. Kelsaiks would make most people dump their pants.
Literally the only difficulty in TSW is making a decent build. The Investigations were fun and difficult on the mind in certain aspects, but that isn't skill. That is intelligence and knowledge. The actual encounters were seriously easy.
TERA you have dodging that is constant. TSW you would dodge every now and again. TERA has collision giving another aspect to large group content and coordination. You have active blocking on your tanks. Healers that don't watch the UI and actually have to get in close and personal to get off their biggest heals. You get hit once or twice in TERA at endgame and you are dead.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo