I enjoy first time leveling in MMO more than crappy endgame.because there are a lot of new things to discover.
Nowadays endgame mean heavy gears grind with instances crawl quota and endless instance PVP point farm,
i ready tired long ago.
You get endgame gears , then they open new level , new dungeon and all you efforts become nothing.
And since i have experience from past MMos , new MMOs give less and less new things to discover
That only applies to simplistic Theme parks, bring in a complex sandbox like SWG, UO, DaOc, and the best one imo shadowbane (or eve). The only thing that makes a bad sandbox is a lack of imagination or Dev restricting the player. End game should always be the point of MMO's not a pointless grind of any forum, it sure as hell doesnt make a complex mind more entertained, I can see a simple person loving to do that.
I enjoy first time leveling in MMO more than crappy endgame.because there are a lot of new things to discover.
Nowadays endgame mean heavy gears grind with instances crawl quota and endless instance PVP point farm,
i ready tired long ago.
You get endgame gears , then they open new level , new dungeon and all you efforts become nothing.
And since i have experience from past MMos , new MMOs give less and less new things to discover
That only applies to simplistic Theme parks, bring in a complex sandbox like SWG, UO, DaOc, and the best one imo shadowbane (or eve). The only thing that makes a bad sandbox is a lack of imagination or Dev restricting the player. End game should always be the point of MMO's not a pointless grind of any forum, it sure as hell doesnt make a complex mind more entertained, I can see a simple person loving to do that.
I'm having a hard time understanding the meaning of "sandbox" and "end game" in the same paragraph. Do true sandbox games actually have an end game? Of course if you use the term "sandbox" as it is often used around here to mean "shit I like" then it makes sense.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by azzamasin I couldn't answer the question as I am one of those guys who prefer the Leveling portion of a game (but only once). I want to play an MMO where the Endgame starts at level 1 and it takes years to reach the level cap but sadly I am in the minority with that style of gaming.
But if the game has no levels, wouldn't endgame start day one?
Yes, see EVE.
There exist endgames in Eve that are not immediately available. There are play styles that suffer dramatic upheavals such as new tiers of ships being added. So although it plays out differently from a levelling game, there are still similar concepts.
Well, you're talking more about progression of the actual character in order to participate, but it's not really end game. Most of it can be joined by new payers right from early days in their gaming careers.
They might be the ones flying the battleships, but they'll still be in the fight in their frigs, destroyers, cruisers, or salvaging behind someone, or hauling for the miners, even in the far reaches of 0.0.
A game that didn't limit content with some form of progression would be called an Adventure RPG and even then, likely you wouldn't be able to reach some of the content without completing/solving the earlier content 1st.
So no, I don't view EVE as having an endgame at all, at least from a traditional theme park sense.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say that if you don't enjoy leveling, you don't enjoy RPGs. Something like an FPS would be more your style.
RPGs have always been and will always be about the growth of your character. "End Game" is something created by the MMO industry to keep you playing and paying after you've reached the artificial cap they chose for the game. Their hope is that you will stick around until the real game can resume when an xpac is released.
Preferring the end game to the leveling in an MMORPG is a perversion. To me it's like saying that when you go see a movie, your favorite part is lining up at the concession stand to get the pop-corn.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I enjoy first time leveling in MMO more than crappy endgame.because there are a lot of new things to discover.
Nowadays endgame mean heavy gears grind with instances crawl quota and endless instance PVP point farm,
i ready tired long ago.
You get endgame gears , then they open new level , new dungeon and all you efforts become nothing.
And since i have experience from past MMos , new MMOs give less and less new things to discover
That only applies to simplistic Theme parks, bring in a complex sandbox like SWG, UO, DaOc, and the best one imo shadowbane (or eve). The only thing that makes a bad sandbox is a lack of imagination or Dev restricting the player. End game should always be the point of MMO's not a pointless grind of any forum, it sure as hell doesnt make a complex mind more entertained, I can see a simple person loving to do that.
I'm having a hard time understanding the meaning of "sandbox" and "end game" in the same paragraph. Do true sandbox games actually have an end game? Of course if you use the term "sandbox" as it is often used around here to mean "shit I like" then it makes sense.
So what you feel is end game and what I know is end game might be different. End game in a theme park often means raiding, in a sandbox it means getting to the point you feel complete. If I (using SB as example) have a fully leveled toon, fully geared toon, and perfect stats for that toon then I am at end game. I am able to RPK, PVP and Siege.....that right there, is end game.
I would say that if you don't enjoy leveling, you don't enjoy RPGs. Something like an FPS would be more your style.
RPGs have always been and will always be about the growth of your character. "End Game" is something created by the MMO industry to keep you playing and paying after you've reached the artificial cap they chose for the game. Their hope is that you will stick around until the real game can resume when an xpac is released.
Preferring the end game to the leveling in an MMORPG is a perversion. To me it's like saying that when you go see a movie, your favorite part is lining up at the concession stand to get the pop-corn.
I don't like leveling and I love MMORPG's. The main reason you have leveling in MMORPG's is because it's easier to have a level treadmill than have a game that makes use of the community of players. UO had no levels and was a perfectly fine MMORPG for it's time. Levels are not the only way to measure progress. Some people like me prefer skills or hybrid systems where levels are just gauges of progress not actual power plateaus that divide content and the player base.
Not to mention that a lot of the leveling is mindless. Grind on mobs or grind on quest you don't care about because it's just there to do. In a single player game you play the story to find out what's going on and what becomes of your player and the world. In a MMORPG your just themepark'in the ride of the great hero with the others on up through the levels. Nothing happens. No titles or earth shattering event to prevent. Just walls of text, kill this, return that, get exp.
Not to mention that with extreme power progressions you have dead content after a game matures and you divide players based on levels and even gear since achievement is all you can do.
I'd hopefully have the intelligence to realize what I'm looking for is retarded.
This!
Why would anyone who didn't like leveling leave to "level up again" and be at the exact same place? What is better, starting all over again only to end up with the same result or having 10 levels "dropped" on you and only have to make up those 10 levels.
And in the end this just means you shouldn't be playing games where leveling is a major part of game play.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I would say that if you don't enjoy leveling, you don't enjoy RPGs. Something like an FPS would be more your style.
That's neat and all, but it seems you're assuming all MMOs should be or are RPGs. Otherwise your statement is irrelevant. Relevant or not, it's false.
"Long boring grind" is what the OP specifically addresses, which is different from progression one enjoys, correct?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As is the OP's question of what you would do if you enjoyed the endgame more than you enjoy the leveling. He's not saying ANY leveling is boring, rather asking people for their personal experience to get a better understanding of the current MMO community opinion and mindset.
For example, I found the endgame of DAoC to be an incredible experience. I was able to experience it at level 20 or so shortly after release. However most people leveled much faster than I did (a recurring situation in every MMO I play) and as such I reached a point where I was just grinding to get to the part I wanted to play with my guild. That's when I unsub.
The moment that I feel I am paying a developer a fee to try to get to the content I enjoy is the moment I cancel. That's probably why my longest subs were UO, L2, AC, EVE and Puzzle Pirates - the shortest of those was 5 years. The content I wanted to enjoy was always right there. Now, some here will consider that feeling entitled or owed or being too lazy but it's not a matter of any of those things and simply a matter of the fun being at point X so my payments for entertainment will only occur if I am at that point. In my opinion, that's not at all unreasonable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would say that if you don't enjoy leveling, you don't enjoy RPGs. Something like an FPS would be more your style.
That's neat and all, but it seems you're assuming all MMOs should be or are RPGs. Otherwise your statement is irrelevant. Relevant or not, it's false.
"Long boring grind" is what the OP specifically addresses, which is different from progression one enjoys, correct?
Where did I say that all MMOs are RPGs?
RPGs of all sorts came from pen and paper RPGs that were all about socializing, role playing and leveling. They spawned CRPGs that were all about leveling without socializing and if you role played, you did it all alone. MMORPGs were the logical next step that brought back the social aspect but they were also about leveling. The term "end game" didn't even exist till then.
in a CRPG when the game ended it ended. But MMORPGs were (until recently) subscription-based businesses. Giving you something to do when you reached their arbitrary level cap, whether it included other forms of non-level progression or not, were originally just stop-gap measures to tide you over until they could program and release higher level content with a new arbitrary cap.
The "long boring grind" of leveling is what an MMORPG is all about. End game is something to keep you amused while you wait for the real game to continue. You can attempt to revise history or spin it any way you want with semantic games but the fact remains that RPGs have always been about attaining new levels. The games that have deviated from that are just exceptions.
the majority of FPS games have no levels and originally had very little RPG-like progression. They all have some semblance of RPG elements now but they're minor.
It's the blending of the two genres that creates this "I only like the end-game" stuff. What the op was describing, whatever he called it, is the conventional MMORPG themepark complete with xpacs that add levels. In that genre, yeah playing it for the end game and considering the leveling a chore is backwards.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'd hopefully have the intelligence to realize what I'm looking for is retarded.
The first time I saw that behaviour on any sizable scale was when WoW announced TBC. Tons of players were pissed off that they worked to get the perfect set and once TBC arrives it will all be "useless" and they'll have to start grinding again. My initial reaction was "What did you think was going to happen?" but then realized that many were probably very new to MMOs and the persistent state of virtual worlds.
I am only doing this because you attempted to make it sound like all MMOs were the same and that they were stupid for thinking differently.
Ultima Online was not a gear grind.
Asherons Call was not a gear grind.
Star Wars Galaxies was not a gear grind.
Guild Wars was not a gear grind.
Mindsets like yours are the reason why MMO makers keep making crap games, head stuck in a small box and don't realize just how diverse the MMO genre actually is, along with the how vastly different the players are and how different their likes are.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I made a thread about this last night and didn't see this one, and I completely agree with OP.
There's too many games that focus on filling itself up with vast sprawling worlds consisting of multiple zones for only one real purpose, and that's to grind away on mobs or do quests. They spend all of this time and money focusing on bloated content in order to fill up a level gap which isn't even needed. Everyone has to grind to some arbitrary number just to reach the 'real' portion of the game (the end-game). Why not just cut out the bullshit leveling gap in the middle and put everyone in the loop from the get-go?
It honestly baffles me to see people willing to invest weeks and months grinding away on PvE portions of the game just to reach a point where they can unlock the content required to join everyone else where it really begins. WoW already done this, and it's already won the trophy for it - making clones and basing it around the same model is leading nowhere.
There can still be a grind and there can still be a form of progression, which is of course almost vital to the MMO genre. It just doesn't have to be in the form of repeated questing and mob tagging in zones where you only spend 2-3 hours in each, as opposed to the 2-3 weeks or months it took to create them.
I made a thread about this last night and didn't see this one, and I completely agree with OP.
There's too many games that focus on filling itself up with vast sprawling worlds consisting of multiple zones for only one real purpose, and that's to grind away on mobs or do quests. They spend all of this time and money focusing on bloated content in order to fill up a level gap which isn't even needed. Everyone has to grind to some arbitrary number just to reach the 'real' portion of the game (the end-game). Why not just cut out the bullshit leveling gap in the middle and put everyone in the loop from the get-go?
It honestly baffles me to see people willing to invest weeks and months grinding away on PvE portions of the game just to reach a point where they can unlock the content required to join everyone else where it really begins. WoW already done this, and it's already won the trophy for it - making clones and basing it around the same model is leading nowhere.
There can still be a grind and there can still be a form of progression, which is of course almost vital to the MMO genre. It just doesn't have to be in the form of repeated questing and mob tagging in zones where you only spend 2-3 hours in each, as opposed to the 2-3 weeks or months it took to create them.
End game is a grind - plain and simple. It can be raids, content, etc. What is the difference between end game grinding versus leveling up grinding? Not a thing.
I think people need to decide; 1. what end game content they want. 2. How to interact with other players. 3. What makes it end game or more grind.
If you think that it takes 2-3 months for a company to create a zone, you are way underestimating that.
I have always enjoyed the levelling part of any "level cap" game
The biggest problem i find is that i often out level each area before all quests are done, I love to complete EVERY quest where possible but the problem this forces that for every 5 areas in a game i tend to only play 4 due to out leveling
For me End game is good for the amount of time i would normally play an area - say 2 weeks then i start a new character.
I like to experience all the aspects of what the devs have created, because lets be honest playing an MMO is like reading book.
Yes you might read the first paragraph and last paragraph (ie watch youtube of boss fights) but unless you read every line of every page you will miss something important
And to me each level , each area, has its own je ne sais quoi
Too many people like to just start at level 1 quick rush to level 80 and on to bosses, then wonder why a game holds no appeal 3 months down the line, and whilst at same time im still only level 50.
The other thing for me its about crafting and professions I love to max them out whilst levelling and not have to crap about at max level
Explain how end game [grind] is better than level grind.
I've only ever seen it expressed as a stylistic preference.
In ye olden dayze, level grind was all there was; MUDs didn't really offer anything else. I started in a game where the level cap was essentially meaningless, because it was years away (literally) even for the two-percenters. Pacing just that slow, the task of generating xp solely from farming mobs..which you had to camp spawn...powergamers did not last long, at all, that play style wasn't really enabled for them.
Then the raiding generation of games; leveling intentionally sped up, then sped up again, solo-enabled, and then trivialized and replaced with an endgame-gear progression design; all of the fun things to do, and most of the variety of other ways to entertain yourself, focused on capped toons.
PVP generation of games; we had to wait for the PK "stench" stigma to lift from the activity, from the purely PVE-only predecessors, but they did create essentially a third major model.
The F2P generation of games I can't really describe, except that they don't really seem to do any model very well.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I really hate the leveling part of any game, most probably cause everything is the same. As an example I will take my latest mmo that I play , Dragon Nest, I am so bored of the leveling and waiting to finally unlock those endgame skills that look so cool and finally start to PVP.
I would love it companies would make servers where you have max level , all vendors in one "city" everything is free and all you can do is PVP. Something like it was used years ago in the private WoW servers.
I would love it companies would make servers where you have max level , all vendors in one "city" everything is free and all you can do is PVP.
So, call of duty, with specialty shops in the queue lobby?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes, like FPS games, just hop in and have fun. Why do I need to be forced to level just so I can enjoy endgame PVP. Leveling is, for me at least, the most boring thing in any game I have ever played.
Originally posted by Breaking123 Yes, like FPS games, just hop in and have fun. Why do I need to be forced to level just so I can enjoy endgame PVP. Leveling is, for me at least, the most boring thing in any game I have ever played.
That is why there are a lot of pvp instance games. However, some do have leveling to add a bit of progression, which also is an element that players seem to like.
Originally posted by azzamasin I couldn't answer the question as I am one of those guys who prefer the Leveling portion of a game (but only once). I want to play an MMO where the Endgame starts at level 1 and it takes years to reach the level cap but sadly I am in the minority with that style of gaming.
I totally agree with you. I think leveling in all games nowadays is too fast.
The main thing with me is I'm tired of levels and I'm tired of themeparks. They go hand and hand.
How many times have a I stared down the level bars doing mindless killing and mindless quest? To many to count. There are other prorities to the games besides leveling. Its a MMORPG gods sakes lets do things that involve the other players.
Comments
That only applies to simplistic Theme parks, bring in a complex sandbox like SWG, UO, DaOc, and the best one imo shadowbane (or eve). The only thing that makes a bad sandbox is a lack of imagination or Dev restricting the player. End game should always be the point of MMO's not a pointless grind of any forum, it sure as hell doesnt make a complex mind more entertained, I can see a simple person loving to do that.
I'm having a hard time understanding the meaning of "sandbox" and "end game" in the same paragraph. Do true sandbox games actually have an end game? Of course if you use the term "sandbox" as it is often used around here to mean "shit I like" then it makes sense.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Well, you're talking more about progression of the actual character in order to participate, but it's not really end game. Most of it can be joined by new payers right from early days in their gaming careers.
They might be the ones flying the battleships, but they'll still be in the fight in their frigs, destroyers, cruisers, or salvaging behind someone, or hauling for the miners, even in the far reaches of 0.0.
A game that didn't limit content with some form of progression would be called an Adventure RPG and even then, likely you wouldn't be able to reach some of the content without completing/solving the earlier content 1st.
So no, I don't view EVE as having an endgame at all, at least from a traditional theme park sense.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say that if you don't enjoy leveling, you don't enjoy RPGs. Something like an FPS would be more your style.
RPGs have always been and will always be about the growth of your character. "End Game" is something created by the MMO industry to keep you playing and paying after you've reached the artificial cap they chose for the game. Their hope is that you will stick around until the real game can resume when an xpac is released.
Preferring the end game to the leveling in an MMORPG is a perversion. To me it's like saying that when you go see a movie, your favorite part is lining up at the concession stand to get the pop-corn.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So what you feel is end game and what I know is end game might be different. End game in a theme park often means raiding, in a sandbox it means getting to the point you feel complete. If I (using SB as example) have a fully leveled toon, fully geared toon, and perfect stats for that toon then I am at end game. I am able to RPK, PVP and Siege.....that right there, is end game.
I don't like leveling and I love MMORPG's. The main reason you have leveling in MMORPG's is because it's easier to have a level treadmill than have a game that makes use of the community of players. UO had no levels and was a perfectly fine MMORPG for it's time. Levels are not the only way to measure progress. Some people like me prefer skills or hybrid systems where levels are just gauges of progress not actual power plateaus that divide content and the player base.
Not to mention that a lot of the leveling is mindless. Grind on mobs or grind on quest you don't care about because it's just there to do. In a single player game you play the story to find out what's going on and what becomes of your player and the world. In a MMORPG your just themepark'in the ride of the great hero with the others on up through the levels. Nothing happens. No titles or earth shattering event to prevent. Just walls of text, kill this, return that, get exp.
Not to mention that with extreme power progressions you have dead content after a game matures and you divide players based on levels and even gear since achievement is all you can do.
This!
Why would anyone who didn't like leveling leave to "level up again" and be at the exact same place? What is better, starting all over again only to end up with the same result or having 10 levels "dropped" on you and only have to make up those 10 levels.
And in the end this just means you shouldn't be playing games where leveling is a major part of game play.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's neat and all, but it seems you're assuming all MMOs should be or are RPGs. Otherwise your statement is irrelevant. Relevant or not, it's false.
"Long boring grind" is what the OP specifically addresses, which is different from progression one enjoys, correct?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
long boring grind can be subjective.
Even though he used those terms he also states he doesnt' like leveling. So wouldn't that mean any leveling was a long boring grind?
I suppose there could be a "short" boring grind but how bad can 10 levels reallly be?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As is the OP's question of what you would do if you enjoyed the endgame more than you enjoy the leveling. He's not saying ANY leveling is boring, rather asking people for their personal experience to get a better understanding of the current MMO community opinion and mindset.
For example, I found the endgame of DAoC to be an incredible experience. I was able to experience it at level 20 or so shortly after release. However most people leveled much faster than I did (a recurring situation in every MMO I play) and as such I reached a point where I was just grinding to get to the part I wanted to play with my guild. That's when I unsub.
The moment that I feel I am paying a developer a fee to try to get to the content I enjoy is the moment I cancel. That's probably why my longest subs were UO, L2, AC, EVE and Puzzle Pirates - the shortest of those was 5 years. The content I wanted to enjoy was always right there. Now, some here will consider that feeling entitled or owed or being too lazy but it's not a matter of any of those things and simply a matter of the fun being at point X so my payments for entertainment will only occur if I am at that point. In my opinion, that's not at all unreasonable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Where did I say that all MMOs are RPGs?
RPGs of all sorts came from pen and paper RPGs that were all about socializing, role playing and leveling. They spawned CRPGs that were all about leveling without socializing and if you role played, you did it all alone. MMORPGs were the logical next step that brought back the social aspect but they were also about leveling. The term "end game" didn't even exist till then.
in a CRPG when the game ended it ended. But MMORPGs were (until recently) subscription-based businesses. Giving you something to do when you reached their arbitrary level cap, whether it included other forms of non-level progression or not, were originally just stop-gap measures to tide you over until they could program and release higher level content with a new arbitrary cap.
The "long boring grind" of leveling is what an MMORPG is all about. End game is something to keep you amused while you wait for the real game to continue. You can attempt to revise history or spin it any way you want with semantic games but the fact remains that RPGs have always been about attaining new levels. The games that have deviated from that are just exceptions.
the majority of FPS games have no levels and originally had very little RPG-like progression. They all have some semblance of RPG elements now but they're minor.
It's the blending of the two genres that creates this "I only like the end-game" stuff. What the op was describing, whatever he called it, is the conventional MMORPG themepark complete with xpacs that add levels. In that genre, yeah playing it for the end game and considering the leveling a chore is backwards.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am only doing this because you attempted to make it sound like all MMOs were the same and that they were stupid for thinking differently.
Ultima Online was not a gear grind.
Asherons Call was not a gear grind.
Star Wars Galaxies was not a gear grind.
Guild Wars was not a gear grind.
Mindsets like yours are the reason why MMO makers keep making crap games, head stuck in a small box and don't realize just how diverse the MMO genre actually is, along with the how vastly different the players are and how different their likes are.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I made a thread about this last night and didn't see this one, and I completely agree with OP.
There's too many games that focus on filling itself up with vast sprawling worlds consisting of multiple zones for only one real purpose, and that's to grind away on mobs or do quests. They spend all of this time and money focusing on bloated content in order to fill up a level gap which isn't even needed. Everyone has to grind to some arbitrary number just to reach the 'real' portion of the game (the end-game). Why not just cut out the bullshit leveling gap in the middle and put everyone in the loop from the get-go?
It honestly baffles me to see people willing to invest weeks and months grinding away on PvE portions of the game just to reach a point where they can unlock the content required to join everyone else where it really begins. WoW already done this, and it's already won the trophy for it - making clones and basing it around the same model is leading nowhere.
There can still be a grind and there can still be a form of progression, which is of course almost vital to the MMO genre. It just doesn't have to be in the form of repeated questing and mob tagging in zones where you only spend 2-3 hours in each, as opposed to the 2-3 weeks or months it took to create them.
End game is a grind - plain and simple. It can be raids, content, etc. What is the difference between end game grinding versus leveling up grinding? Not a thing.
I think people need to decide; 1. what end game content they want. 2. How to interact with other players. 3. What makes it end game or more grind.
If you think that it takes 2-3 months for a company to create a zone, you are way underestimating that.
I have always enjoyed the levelling part of any "level cap" game
The biggest problem i find is that i often out level each area before all quests are done, I love to complete EVERY quest where possible but the problem this forces that for every 5 areas in a game i tend to only play 4 due to out leveling
For me End game is good for the amount of time i would normally play an area - say 2 weeks then i start a new character.
I like to experience all the aspects of what the devs have created, because lets be honest playing an MMO is like reading book.
Yes you might read the first paragraph and last paragraph (ie watch youtube of boss fights) but unless you read every line of every page you will miss something important
And to me each level , each area, has its own je ne sais quoi
Too many people like to just start at level 1 quick rush to level 80 and on to bosses, then wonder why a game holds no appeal 3 months down the line, and whilst at same time im still only level 50.
The other thing for me its about crafting and professions I love to max them out whilst levelling and not have to crap about at max level
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
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Explain how end game is better than level grind.
Find an instance with the most efficient production factor for the last gear you will ever need.
Find a Mob that produces the best exper to get you to the last level you will ever achieve.
It just seems like one in the same to me, more to do with mindset.
I've only ever seen it expressed as a stylistic preference.
In ye olden dayze, level grind was all there was; MUDs didn't really offer anything else. I started in a game where the level cap was essentially meaningless, because it was years away (literally) even for the two-percenters. Pacing just that slow, the task of generating xp solely from farming mobs..which you had to camp spawn...powergamers did not last long, at all, that play style wasn't really enabled for them.
Then the raiding generation of games; leveling intentionally sped up, then sped up again, solo-enabled, and then trivialized and replaced with an endgame-gear progression design; all of the fun things to do, and most of the variety of other ways to entertain yourself, focused on capped toons.
PVP generation of games; we had to wait for the PK "stench" stigma to lift from the activity, from the purely PVE-only predecessors, but they did create essentially a third major model.
The F2P generation of games I can't really describe, except that they don't really seem to do any model very well.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I really hate the leveling part of any game, most probably cause everything is the same. As an example I will take my latest mmo that I play , Dragon Nest, I am so bored of the leveling and waiting to finally unlock those endgame skills that look so cool and finally start to PVP.
I would love it companies would make servers where you have max level , all vendors in one "city" everything is free and all you can do is PVP. Something like it was used years ago in the private WoW servers.
So, call of duty, with specialty shops in the queue lobby?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The only problem with CoD is that it is only one style of combat.
If there is fantasy style combat, pve gameplay, or other type settings ... i don't see why not.
That is why there are a lot of pvp instance games. However, some do have leveling to add a bit of progression, which also is an element that players seem to like.
I totally agree with you. I think leveling in all games nowadays is too fast.
There Is Always Hope!
The main thing with me is I'm tired of levels and I'm tired of themeparks. They go hand and hand.
How many times have a I stared down the level bars doing mindless killing and mindless quest? To many to count. There are other prorities to the games besides leveling. Its a MMORPG gods sakes lets do things that involve the other players.