Originally posted by Ravensworth Zaxx I think you are living in a dream world if you think one game can do all that. I would say that a great number of "Gamers" are casual players that have Jobs, Family, etc... that prevent them from being hard core. They are also the people that tend to vote with their wallets. They for the most part do not vote via Forums like this one. They simply don't have the time.Hard Core gamers are a major part of the success of any MMO as they generate hype and publicity that can't be bought. The Casual gamer is one that reads the reviews and looks for what will give him the most bang for his time. Time not money is more precious to most casual gamers. Look at the situation in RIFT....BEGINNER raid gear can now be purchased and the hard core raiders are screaming not FAIR because I had to work for that. What they fail to realize is that I had to work for MY beginner gear to....Just not in RIFT. It is not pay to win it is pay to enjoy or pay to catch up. I was a former Hard Core raider and realized I needed a break. I never came back from the break to be a hard core raider again. I have friends who LOVE hard core raiding. I am happy for them but they are so into it they fail to realize they are not the majority of most server populations in any game.Wishing for the Ultimate game that caters to everyone will only leave you heartbroken and searching for a new game.
While I disagree, and can respect your thoughts and very wise words here.
Let me explain WHY I believe that an mmo, if done right can cater to both hardcore and theme park fans...
Supposedly they have said to think of this game more as 'minecraft' where you can build and change the world rather then a static, never changing world. So let's look at Minecraft now. Minecraft has many, many fans that are young and play the game as a theme park kinda game. They build relatively simple buildings, homes, weapons, etc. And the very same game also has plenty of hardcore fans that use the exact same game mechanics to forge out very complex and amazing creations that I have seen on youtube and literally been left in awe.
Now I know that we can't compare Minecraft to an mmorpg as users can change huge settings in a game like minecraft so no monsters spawn etc. However, I do believe that an mmo can be made that can cater to both types of fans, and if it did so, it WOULD be a HUGE success for obvious reasons.
Let me explain a little more...
Lets say my son who is a WOW loving casual gamer at age 7 wants to make a cool wizard. He wants to blow stuff up with fireballs. So the game lets him simply use cookie cutter type basic spells that he casts from the hot bar (much like most theme park mmos today) Now let's say a hardcore gamer plays the same game and obviously hates the hotbar simplicity and wants something more dynamic. He spends hours researching spells using a complex spell research system that also requires he collect spell reagents to cast his spells. His time and investment rewards him with much more devastating spells but at the expense of time and cost of reagents etc. Both the casual player and the hardcore player here are rewarded in the same game.
Taking it further, my son wants a house and either chooses to buy a pre-built simple house to place on his land or build one like he might in minecraft, while the hardcore player gets to spend time and energy and is patient and he slowly builds an epic 5 story masterpiece on his plot of land. Both players are happy and are rewarded with their level of work that they put into the game, much the same as real life. (A 6 year old girl is going to take tons of delight with mixing her simple recipe cake batter with water and cooking it in her pink oven-bake toy oven while her mother makes a cake from scratch spends much more time but will be happy as well serving her family with a much better tasting dessert)
Players that don't want to risk loot loss can play in safe zones while the hardcore gamers can duke it out and play 'risk vs reward' of full loot PvP in other zones of the same game. In fact, imagine how exciting it might be for me being a hardcore pvp gamer, to take my son with me into a pvp zone and try to protect him from other players but let him take the satisfaction of the experience and allowing him to loot my kills.
Mold this same type of balance into every aspect of the game. I think you see my point. It is NOT such a ridiculous idea that the same game couldn't cater to both types of players.
Is it often done? NO. Will EQ Next really do this? Very likely NOT. But I do believe that eventually an mmo game will come along that will balance the desires of casual and hard core gamers and that it will be a huge success when it does this. (Think Minecraft success)
But I will agree with many of you here already.. that if I had to choose a themepark game or a much less popular true sandbox hardcore game, I'd choose the latter.
I just honestly believe that even themepark mmo fans would prefer more dynamic quests and the ability and freedom to do what they desire without so many restrictions placed upon them. (They just need a little more 'handholding' and instant gratification)
I wonder sometimes if I could put out a list of amazing features to a game, not show anything about it, not say much else about it, and get money if I opened it up to preorders.
Just start rattling things off like:
A BRAND NEW TRUE SANDBOX EXPERIENCE!!
Fully shape and change your world! Players can change the very world they live in in a deep and highly interactive manner.
Deep character customization! Change and adjust every last detail of your character from their skills and talents down to the color of their hair.
Build and shape the very cities players live in! A small quaint village with Hobbit holes or a large monstrous castle surrounded by high fortified walls. You decide!
Become a leader of nations and lead a society of other players to great power and wealth!
Will you become a crafter of unique and amazing weapons? Perhaps a vendor of great wealth? Or a warrior known throughout the lands for his brave and impressive deeds? The path you choose is your own.
Send out adventurers on quests of your own design! The only limits are those of your mind.
I'm sure I could create a list that at least a certain amount of people would take and blow it up into something even more amazing than what I described and would hype the game all the way until when it was released. At that time I could just explain how 200 people turning in 5 rat tails each which caused the Ogre to push over the bridge was the deep and highly interactive world changing I was referring to. And leading of a nation really meant just having a guild as always.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I wonder sometimes if I could put out a list of amazing features to a game, not show anything about it, not say much else about it, and get money if I opened it up to preorders.
Absolutely you could.
Look at Greed Monger. No experience in game making ever. Dude made $90,000 in 2 months with such hype.
Amazing presentations are easy to pull off. I remember seeing a brilliant gameplay demo of FarCry 2. It showed fully destructible environments, amazing visuals, a smart AI, oomphtastic guns and exciting car chases. Guess what? All of that was in the game, but it still wasn't a revolutionary shooter. Also, remember how cool GW2's dragon fights looked pre-launch? Now most GW2 fans agree those fights are awful. They're among the worst bosses in that game, but they impressed the press the most.
Presentations mean nothing. They need to show something concrete and integrated into gameplay for me to jump on the hype train.
Amazing presentations are easy to pull off. I remember seeing a brilliant gameplay demo of FarCry 2. It showed fully destructible environments, amazing visuals, a smart AI, oomphtastic guns and exciting car chases. Guess what? All of that was in the game, but it still wasn't a revolutionary shooter. Also, remember how cool GW2's dragon fights looked pre-launch? Now most GW2 fans agree those fights are awful. They're among the worst bosses in that game, but they impressed the press the most.
Presentations mean nothing. They need to show something concrete and integrated into gameplay for me to jump on the hype train.
Combat and game play will be there... but I dont think thats where the revolution in the game will be. Player made content that can be as good as game developers. Quests, story, zones and npc interaction like you have never seen before. Thats where EQN will shine but maybe Im wrong and revolutionary combat will be something they are shooting for as well.
Originally posted by Waterlily If it's a WoW killer it means it's going to be a casual game, which means it's not EQ and I'm not interested.
This.
Furthermore, I don't want WoW to die. I want it to live on and keep all the people happy that think WoW is, somehow, the proper evolution of the MMO, and not rather the degeneration or deterioration that those of us who played early MMOs know it to be.
Let them have their fun, and we can have our fun.
I say this somewhat tongue in cheek. I personally think EQ Next is not going to be as niche as many old school EQ fans will want it to be. I think its going to have mass appeal in a different way, but without some of the limited and trivial content commonly being mass produced by the MMO industry. What exactly that means, I don't know, but my best guess is that it will mean more options, and a return to a world more suitable to the RPG genre... in one word, immersive.
It would be absolutely hilarious if EQN took the crown from WoW which took it from EQ. Then it would be even funnier if Titan took the crown back. It would be like an episode of WWF. lol
That being said, any yet to be released game at any time has the possibility of taking down WoW. It's just that the more information we find out about these games, the less and less likely it becomes.
Let's give some credit to the staff of this great site we are all on at the moment, and let's say that they are 100% correct. In their own words, what we see in August makes us all 'poop' ourselves in awe.
EQ Next blows us all away and gets tons of pre-orders and launches in the months soon after the reveal in August.
Correction there will be no pre-orders because its free to play from launch.
If that is going to be the case, then I would also assume that EQ Next would certainly be that 'WoW killer' so many games have been hyped up to be, but failed miserably at to this point. I mean who would want to still pay WOW when something like this comes along and takes the gaming community by storm?!? I mean even console gamers would be buying copies of EQ Next off the store shelves and it would obviously succeed with flying colors.
So my point...my question rather is in 5 years do we see World of Warcraft 2 (Titan) launching copying the success of EQ Next changes? Blizzard just makes their own little changes and enhancements to EQ Next's brilliant systems? And will there be 400 EQ Next clones over the coming years? Will we be reading in 5 years how EQ Next just surpassed 20 million subscribers? Oh wait, sorry 30 million subscribers because of the 10 million PS4 players, lol.
Is this the next big thing? Is this really the true 'WoW killer'? I know, I know... don't yell at me too much, but I can't help but think this now, even though almost every detail about EQ Next is still a mystery.
WoW is already dieing the WOW killer this is a moot point all their players grew up and all want to play a new style of game. Over half WoWs accounts are Asian and they are all moving on to other games.
But is this game going to be THAT revolutionary in the mmo gaming world? This should definitely be an exiting few months coming up for the mmo community.
I've seen plenty of games hyped to the max here on these forums. But not ever have I seen such hype from the staff of this website. - And THAT my friends is why I truly ask what I do here now. ...Lets give them some credit, after all they have been through all the over hyped disappoints that we have as well. They've seen it all first hand time and time again. And they say this is the game that is gonna blow our minds.
WoW, just WoW... wait a minute. Wow is sooo "2004" *grins*
Amazing presentations are easy to pull off. I remember seeing a brilliant gameplay demo of FarCry 2. It showed fully destructible environments, amazing visuals, a smart AI, oomphtastic guns and exciting car chases. Guess what? All of that was in the game, but it still wasn't a revolutionary shooter. Also, remember how cool GW2's dragon fights looked pre-launch? Now most GW2 fans agree those fights are awful. They're among the worst bosses in that game, but they impressed the press the most.
Presentations mean nothing. They need to show something concrete and integrated into gameplay for me to jump on the hype train.
Combat and game play will be there... but I dont think thats where the revolution in the game will be. Player made content that can be as good as game developers. Quests, story, zones and npc interaction like you have never seen before. Thats where EQN will shine but maybe Im wrong and revolutionary combat will be something they are shooting for as well.
I'm not talking about combat. Combat is relatively easy to judge. Sandbox content is not, because it's very expansive and complex. One really needs to see the big picture before commenting on it, which is why I'm not particularly hyped yet. The press couldn't see the big picture without playing the game for days with hundreds of others.
To the OP: I think the days of having a dominant MMO in the market will be over in the next 2-3 years. World of Warcraft is facing a lot of competition, more quality competition, than it ever has and it shows, in the sub numbers, that people are going to those worlds and experimenting and cutting the WoW chord for at least a few months. This always happened in the past, but the competition wasn't as fierce and as high quality as it is now. Even an F2P P2W game like Neverwinter is carving its own niche and has a very high level of polish when it comes to combat, animations, dungeon design, graphics, etc. I expect more of this to happen over the coming years.
EQNext is going to raise the bar, and that is a good thing. The industry needs a shake up. It will remind me of the old chip wars between AMD and Intel in both CPUs and GPUs. Both giants vying for your wallet, and one ultimately coming out ahead and pushing the tech so far that we have these elegantly designed and engineered sandy bridge and haswell CPUs of today. This will be a good thing for the MMO industry. More choice, more high quality choice, leads to the dominant game(the game that makes more money) being better, but also not choking out the players because it's the only good game out. Hate Blizzard all you want, they do have a very quality game with great graphics, great combat, amazing raid encounters, and the most balanced class system I have ever seen as far as DPS and healing output from classes in PVE.
At the same time, there will be a segment of the market that will start to embrace the fluidity of PVP in the MMO space and design their core game around PVP. We can already see this happening with Age of Wushu, ArcheAge, others. We saw it happen in the past with EVE, Aion, etc. So, in essence, we will have games that cater to specific audiences and then games who will cater to all audiences. There will be tiers of MMOs, not just one juggernaut and a bunch of little guys. Games like Wildstar, EQNext, Titan, in 5 years will inhabit that top tier. The next tier down will be a combination of games that try and do everything, but aren't the best at all of them, but continue to put out high quality content such as Rift, Neverwinter, Dragon's Prophet. On that same tier you will have games that will concentrate mostly on PVP, but are under the god tier of the top three such as ArcheAge, Age of Wushu, EVE, Tera, TSW, others. The last tier will be the crappier F2P titles. This is just my opinion of where I see things going towards today. In it no ways represents that which may change and would shift that opinion differently.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Lets just completely stop talking and comparing to wow. Why bother? The only game that will kill wow, is wow itself.
Personally, I hope EQnext starts in a completely different race. Not challenging wow in any way. Only then, we will get some peace and enjoy the game that we're all looking forward to playing. And hope the devs keep racing in the same race as the one they started in.
My question is, What's the point of showing/telling a mmorpg writer how "awesome" their game is going to be at E3, but hiding it from the public?
What did they accomplish? Free advertising and hype?
Its E3! The world is watching, yet you are in a back room with a few media personel?! Why even come to E3?
Here is my other point. So far the have told these media personel what they are going to do. Bill seems to believe them. Who is to say they deliver? All I have heard is biggest sandbox ever. What does biggest mean?
Play Planetside 2 and you will get a feel of what EQNext is capable of as for size. The Forgelight engine is insane.
Did they spend more money on it? Are thier continents 20% larger? Will we be fighting a dragon 5 foot taller than Deathwing?
Again refer to PS2 for possible continent size.
Are they just using the sandbox term just because they know its hot right now?
Its is a sandbox because they have been working on and over the years new systems like Player Studio, Dungeon maker EQ2, Story bricks, etc. It will be a Sandbox because players can build anything from Quests to buildings to who else knows what. This is why it will be a insane Sandbox a true sandbox.
They remind me of a buddy trying to set me up on a blind date. A buddy who isnt really my buddy. He's a friend of a friend who used to be a friend.
So what does this girl look like?
Oh man I cant really give you any details, but she his the biggest babe ever.
The main thing is most of the game probably can't be copied because games like WoW will have to make a new ENGINE to do the things they are doing. ForgeLight is sick engine. Sure they will copy some but will be limited because of their engine.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I wonder sometimes if I could put out a list of amazing features to a game, not show anything about it, not say much else about it, and get money if I opened it up to preorders.
Absolutely you could.
Look at Greed Monger. No experience in game making ever. Dude made $90,000 in 2 months with such hype.
Just sayin'.
- Zaxx
My point was that this is basically what people are doing with EQNext. They haven't seen anything, haven't tried it, and are taking the PR speech as exact information on how the game will be.
Keep excitement in check by thinking of what is more likely to be in the game vs what people want there to be in the game and don't get too excited until a lot more information (with actual details involved) comes out.
Lets just completely stop talking and comparing to wow. Why bother? The only game that will kill wow, is wow itself.
Personally, I hope EQnext starts in a completely different race. Not challenging wow in any way. Only then, we will get some peace and enjoy the game that we're all looking forward to playing. And hope the devs keep racing in the same race as the one they started in.
Well said.
Heres to hoping EQ Next will be the game we're waiting for and, if so, keep being that game without compromise in the years to come.
Lets just completely stop talking and comparing to wow. Why bother? The only game that will kill wow, is wow itself.
Personally, I hope EQnext starts in a completely different race. Not challenging wow in any way. Only then, we will get some peace and enjoy the game that we're all looking forward to playing. And hope the devs keep racing in the same race as the one they started in.
I completely disagree. Blizzard is the company that makes World of Warcraft. I have to give them credit as they have never stopped adding new features to the game, but there are games out there that have more interesting combat and ideas about what an MMO should evolve into. They are limited by the technology of 9 years ago, perhaps even before that because they started building a game before 2004. It's not my desire for people to look at the top and see a game that comes from 2004. We need something to push the industry into a new age.
Businesses that were once thought juggernauts needed a fresh new kid with new ideas to balance them out. This happened with the baby bell's, AT&T, AOL, Microsoft, IBM. All I am saying is that I think the MMO industry is more like that. Eventually, as good as raiding is in WoW, it will not keep the numbers it even has now. People will continue to get burned out and need a fresh start or new perspective, just like in real life. People will choose to go to these new worlds, specially as they grow up and there aren't new teens to take their place since all the young kids are playing LoL and sexting on snapchat and vine.
I think Everquest still has this incredibly nerdy/hardcore stigma to it even though its safe to say it wont be as unforgiving as Everquest 1 was. I think there will be a group of gamers even though they like MMOs that will never touch Everquest. I think the game will be pretty popular especially since ESO isnt releasing this year, but I still think there are some who treat EQ in a biased way.
Also, aren't WoW and Everquest Next slated to be two very different games? WoW is very "theme park" end game group dungeon/raiding oriented, isnt Everquest Next going to be the opposite? I'm sure there will be some raids but isnt EQN using not much instancing at all?
Everquest Next being free to play/free to download if anything means people can play both games.
whoever said a "sandbox" cant have raiding or even as its mainstay its supposed to be a shark jumper afterall why cant it have it all ?
maybe eqnext doesnt really fit a mold yet defined its something new smedly knows and he aint telling
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by Ravensworth Zaxx I think you are living in a dream world if you think one game can do all that. I would say that a great number of "Gamers" are casual players that have Jobs, Family, etc... that prevent them from being hard core. They are also the people that tend to vote with their wallets. They for the most part do not vote via Forums like this one. They simply don't have the time.
Hard Core gamers are a major part of the success of any MMO as they generate hype and publicity that can't be bought.
The Casual gamer is one that reads the reviews and looks for what will give him the most bang for his time. Time not money is more precious to most casual gamers.
Look at the situation in RIFT....BEGINNER raid gear can now be purchased and the hard core raiders are screaming not FAIR because I had to work for that. What they fail to realize is that I had to work for MY beginner gear to....Just not in RIFT. It is not pay to win it is pay to enjoy or pay to catch up. I was a former Hard Core raider and realized I needed a break. I never came back from the break to be a hard core raider again. I have friends who LOVE hard core raiding. I am happy for them but they are so into it they fail to realize they are not the majority of most server populations in any game.
Wishing for the Ultimate game that caters to everyone will only leave you heartbroken and searching for a new game.
While I disagree, and can respect your thoughts and very wise words here.
Let me explain WHY I believe that an mmo, if done right can cater to both hardcore and theme park fans...
Supposedly they have said to think of this game more as 'minecraft' where you can build and change the world rather then a static, never changing world. So let's look at Minecraft now. Minecraft has many, many fans that are young and play the game as a theme park kinda game. They build relatively simple buildings, homes, weapons, etc. And the very same game also has plenty of hardcore fans that use the exact same game mechanics to forge out very complex and amazing creations that I have seen on youtube and literally been left in awe.
Now I know that we can't compare Minecraft to an mmorpg as users can change huge settings in a game like minecraft so no monsters spawn etc. However, I do believe that an mmo can be made that can cater to both types of fans, and if it did so, it WOULD be a HUGE success for obvious reasons.
Let me explain a little more...
Lets say my son who is a WOW lover casual gamer at age 7 wants to make a cool wizard. He wants to blow stuff up with fireballs. So the game lets him simply use cookie cutter type basic spells that he casts from the hot bar (much like most theme park mmos today) Now let's say a hardcore game pays the same game and obviously hates the hotbar simplicity and wants something more dynamic. He spends hours researching spells using a complex spell research system that also requires he collect spell reagents to cast his spells. His time and investment rewards him with much more devastating spells but at the expense of time and cost of reagents etc. Both the casual player and the hardcore player here are rewarded in the same game.
Taking it further, my son wants a house and either chooses to buy a pre-built simple house to place on his land or build one like he might in minecraft, while the hardcore player gets to spend time and energy and patiently and slowly builds an epic 5 story masterpiece on his plot of land. Both players are happy and are rewarded with their level of work put into the game, much the same as real life. (a 6 year old girl is going to take tons of delight with mixing her simple recipe cake batter with water and cooking it in her pink oven-bake toy oven while her mother who makes a cake from scratch will spend much more time and be happy serving her family with a much better tasting dessert)
Players that don't want to risk loot loss can play in safe zones while the hardcore gamers can duke it out and risk vs reward of full loot PvP in other zones of the same game. In fact imagine how exciting it might be for me being a hardcore pvp gamer to take my son with me into a pvp zone and try to protect him from other players but let him take the satisfaction of the experience and allowing him to loot my kills.
Mold this same type of balance into every aspect of the game. I think you see my point. It is NOT such a ridiculous idea that the same game couldn't cater to both types of players.
Is it often done? NO. Will EQ Next really do this? Very likely NOT. But I do believe then eventually an mmo game will come along that will balance the desires of casual and hard core gamers and that it will be a huge success when it does. (Think Minecraft success)
But I will agree with many of you here already.. that if I had to choose a themepark game or a much less popular true sandbox hardcore game, I'd choose the latter.
I just honestly believe that even themepark mmo fans would prefer more dynamic quests and the ability and freedom to do what they desired and no so many restrictions placed upon them. (They just need a little more 'handholding' and instant gratification)
Just my 2 copper.
- Zaxx
Well said points Zaxx. I just don't think anyone is going to try and do it. My reason for thinking this is long experiencing in watching games promise so many things and never deliver. I would rather they underpromise and over deliver.
However having read your post I too can see a glimmer of hope that one day that "might" happen. I like your ideas and wish that SOE had that kind of vision. Sadly I think they don't. It is sad to think that the same company has created groundbreaking gaming platforms cannot bring the same groundbreaking vision to game design.
Defining a game as a WoW-killer is a silly concept, that game will never die. The more time you invest into a game, the less likely you are going to find yourself enjoying a new game. The thought and burden of all the things you've accomplished in the older game will be a weight in the back of your mind. High desire for a new experience and change of game play can help a person overcome the transition to a newer game and commit themselves to playing it. Mostly, people just hop around trying out new games with no intention of staying for very long (which is why a F2P model is so successful in drawing new players).
Mmo gaming is still in its adolescent phase. Developers are introducing new concepts and revitalizing familiar popular concepts all the time. The developers here are not trying to recreate EQ1 with better graphics (while desirable to some, is not logical), but are trying to introduce new game play and experiences for players new and old. Most people fail to realize that the same people who developed content and boss fights in WoW were players of EQ1! Here, for EQNext a team has been assembled of talented producers etc. and former EQ gamers. Each of them are passionate about what they are making, and that's an exciting thought.
Time for everyone to be realistic and calm the excitement meter until August, when they display the game and release information about it.
If someone can name one thing that SOE has done that is a really great idea,let me know,it will give me some confidence they have creativity in their books.
So far the BEST idea i have ever seen in a game is FFXI's "Beseiged".The creatures can be seen walking through the game world towards the major city to invade it.Once they reach the city they do enter and invade it and you fight them off with the aid of the NPC's.
I actually watched tons of creativity in gaming playing FFXI while all the other developers just kept churning out more maps,more levels and more mounts and more dungeons,never anything creative.
I played a TON of EQ2 because it was the best at the same old and looked great as well.However for creativity,i saw nothing awe inspiring.
I also liked some ideas in Runes of Magic like the way gear imbues as well AOC's Tortage city idea was a nice touch.I am really hard pressed to think of good ideas outside of FFXI,so you can see why everyone keeps calling games WOW clones,there has been VERY little creativity.
Here is what SOE has done that comes to mind.
Mentoring,Mercs,scaling "splitpaw",pack pony,dungeon maker,city events.Nothing here is awe inspiring all very small ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
SOE fails a lot more than they succeed and frankly I don't think anyone (other than the developers who SOE doesn't let do their job ), even care if the games they put out are any good. I think this is SOE in a nutshell hype the crap out of the game dupe people into paying money before the game comes out, if the games tanks so what turn it into F2P and take that initial influx of cash and put it into the next project. Then the cycle repeats itself, i know many are gonna say isn't that the whole MMO industry.....and you have a point, but I think SOE is worse at this than any gaming company I have seen. In short believing in a SOE project to me is like believing a politician who can't tell the truth over and over again.
They support their products horribly the GM's are not helpful i mean what else do people need to see before they stop buying into the hype of this company Smedley still has a job for one reason and one reason only cause he keeps making SOE lot's of money off idiots that buy into the crap this company spews out. Every dev i have ever known that worked for SOE left the company for the same reason they don't care about the quality of the games , and they don't let the dev's actually make a great product. Nobody likes being told hey you know all those great things you were working on .....either throw them in the trash or put it on the back burner for an expansion/big patch down the road, and spend the next 6 months rushing the game and making it suck so we can get it out at a certain time of year we think will be more profitable.....that is SOE.
I'm intrigued because of all the sandbox talk, and because they're trying to revive one of the great old school mmos. Whether it will actually deliver is still very much up in the air. I'd like to be wrong, but I'm thinking it's just over hyped at this point, like every other major MMO release.
Frankly, we don't even know how they define the term sandbox. I'm skeptical that they're even using the term in a way that won't be misleading for many of us.
Comments
While I disagree, and can respect your thoughts and very wise words here.
Let me explain WHY I believe that an mmo, if done right can cater to both hardcore and theme park fans...
Supposedly they have said to think of this game more as 'minecraft' where you can build and change the world rather then a static, never changing world.
So let's look at Minecraft now. Minecraft has many, many fans that are young and play the game as a theme park kinda game. They build relatively simple buildings, homes, weapons, etc. And the very same game also has plenty of hardcore fans that use the exact same game mechanics to forge out very complex and amazing creations that I have seen on youtube and literally been left in awe.
Now I know that we can't compare Minecraft to an mmorpg as users can change huge settings in a game like minecraft so no monsters spawn etc. However, I do believe that an mmo can be made that can cater to both types of fans, and if it did so, it WOULD be a HUGE success for obvious reasons.
Let me explain a little more...
Lets say my son who is a WOW loving casual gamer at age 7 wants to make a cool wizard. He wants to blow stuff up with fireballs. So the game lets him simply use cookie cutter type basic spells that he casts from the hot bar (much like most theme park mmos today) Now let's say a hardcore gamer plays the same game and obviously hates the hotbar simplicity and wants something more dynamic. He spends hours researching spells using a complex spell research system that also requires he collect spell reagents to cast his spells. His time and investment rewards him with much more devastating spells but at the expense of time and cost of reagents etc. Both the casual player and the hardcore player here are rewarded in the same game.
Taking it further, my son wants a house and either chooses to buy a pre-built simple house to place on his land or build one like he might in minecraft, while the hardcore player gets to spend time and energy and is patient and he slowly builds an epic 5 story masterpiece on his plot of land. Both players are happy and are rewarded with their level of work that they put into the game, much the same as real life. (A 6 year old girl is going to take tons of delight with mixing her simple recipe cake batter with water and cooking it in her pink oven-bake toy oven while her mother makes a cake from scratch spends much more time but will be happy as well serving her family with a much better tasting dessert)
Players that don't want to risk loot loss can play in safe zones while the hardcore gamers can duke it out and play 'risk vs reward' of full loot PvP in other zones of the same game. In fact, imagine how exciting it might be for me being a hardcore pvp gamer, to take my son with me into a pvp zone and try to protect him from other players but let him take the satisfaction of the experience and allowing him to loot my kills.
Mold this same type of balance into every aspect of the game. I think you see my point. It is NOT such a ridiculous idea that the same game couldn't cater to both types of players.
Is it often done? NO. Will EQ Next really do this? Very likely NOT. But I do believe that eventually an mmo game will come along that will balance the desires of casual and hard core gamers and that it will be a huge success when it does this. (Think Minecraft success)
But I will agree with many of you here already.. that if I had to choose a themepark game or a much less popular true sandbox hardcore game, I'd choose the latter.
I just honestly believe that even themepark mmo fans would prefer more dynamic quests and the ability and freedom to do what they desire without so many restrictions placed upon them. (They just need a little more 'handholding' and instant gratification)
Just my 2 copper.
- Zaxx
I wonder sometimes if I could put out a list of amazing features to a game, not show anything about it, not say much else about it, and get money if I opened it up to preorders.
Just start rattling things off like:
A BRAND NEW TRUE SANDBOX EXPERIENCE!!
Fully shape and change your world! Players can change the very world they live in in a deep and highly interactive manner.
Deep character customization! Change and adjust every last detail of your character from their skills and talents down to the color of their hair.
Build and shape the very cities players live in! A small quaint village with Hobbit holes or a large monstrous castle surrounded by high fortified walls. You decide!
Become a leader of nations and lead a society of other players to great power and wealth!
Will you become a crafter of unique and amazing weapons? Perhaps a vendor of great wealth? Or a warrior known throughout the lands for his brave and impressive deeds? The path you choose is your own.
Send out adventurers on quests of your own design! The only limits are those of your mind.
I'm sure I could create a list that at least a certain amount of people would take and blow it up into something even more amazing than what I described and would hype the game all the way until when it was released. At that time I could just explain how 200 people turning in 5 rat tails each which caused the Ogre to push over the bridge was the deep and highly interactive world changing I was referring to. And leading of a nation really meant just having a guild as always.
Absolutely you could.
Look at Greed Monger. No experience in game making ever. Dude made $90,000 in 2 months with such hype.
Just sayin'.
- Zaxx
Amazing presentations are easy to pull off. I remember seeing a brilliant gameplay demo of FarCry 2. It showed fully destructible environments, amazing visuals, a smart AI, oomphtastic guns and exciting car chases. Guess what? All of that was in the game, but it still wasn't a revolutionary shooter. Also, remember how cool GW2's dragon fights looked pre-launch? Now most GW2 fans agree those fights are awful. They're among the worst bosses in that game, but they impressed the press the most.
Presentations mean nothing. They need to show something concrete and integrated into gameplay for me to jump on the hype train.
im not going to start caring about the game until i see the revenue model...
if it is like EQ1 sure.
if it is like SOE the last 5 years... nope
it can be an amazing gigantic perfect sandbox... but if i have to pay for every scoop of sand individually i wont play.
Since it's releasing F2P I know there's probably a good majority of gamers waiting for it. I'll play it for a bit but I'm stuck on DCUO now.
I like F2P MMOs because of the single-player ability. When I need you or your spec I can group up, if not I can /wave and continue business.
I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
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Combat and game play will be there... but I dont think thats where the revolution in the game will be. Player made content that can be as good as game developers. Quests, story, zones and npc interaction like you have never seen before. Thats where EQN will shine but maybe Im wrong and revolutionary combat will be something they are shooting for as well.
This.
Furthermore, I don't want WoW to die. I want it to live on and keep all the people happy that think WoW is, somehow, the proper evolution of the MMO, and not rather the degeneration or deterioration that those of us who played early MMOs know it to be.
Let them have their fun, and we can have our fun.
I say this somewhat tongue in cheek. I personally think EQ Next is not going to be as niche as many old school EQ fans will want it to be. I think its going to have mass appeal in a different way, but without some of the limited and trivial content commonly being mass produced by the MMO industry. What exactly that means, I don't know, but my best guess is that it will mean more options, and a return to a world more suitable to the RPG genre... in one word, immersive.
It would be absolutely hilarious if EQN took the crown from WoW which took it from EQ. Then it would be even funnier if Titan took the crown back. It would be like an episode of WWF. lol
That being said, any yet to be released game at any time has the possibility of taking down WoW. It's just that the more information we find out about these games, the less and less likely it becomes.
I'm not talking about combat. Combat is relatively easy to judge. Sandbox content is not, because it's very expansive and complex. One really needs to see the big picture before commenting on it, which is why I'm not particularly hyped yet. The press couldn't see the big picture without playing the game for days with hundreds of others.
To the OP: I think the days of having a dominant MMO in the market will be over in the next 2-3 years. World of Warcraft is facing a lot of competition, more quality competition, than it ever has and it shows, in the sub numbers, that people are going to those worlds and experimenting and cutting the WoW chord for at least a few months. This always happened in the past, but the competition wasn't as fierce and as high quality as it is now. Even an F2P P2W game like Neverwinter is carving its own niche and has a very high level of polish when it comes to combat, animations, dungeon design, graphics, etc. I expect more of this to happen over the coming years.
EQNext is going to raise the bar, and that is a good thing. The industry needs a shake up. It will remind me of the old chip wars between AMD and Intel in both CPUs and GPUs. Both giants vying for your wallet, and one ultimately coming out ahead and pushing the tech so far that we have these elegantly designed and engineered sandy bridge and haswell CPUs of today. This will be a good thing for the MMO industry. More choice, more high quality choice, leads to the dominant game(the game that makes more money) being better, but also not choking out the players because it's the only good game out. Hate Blizzard all you want, they do have a very quality game with great graphics, great combat, amazing raid encounters, and the most balanced class system I have ever seen as far as DPS and healing output from classes in PVE.
At the same time, there will be a segment of the market that will start to embrace the fluidity of PVP in the MMO space and design their core game around PVP. We can already see this happening with Age of Wushu, ArcheAge, others. We saw it happen in the past with EVE, Aion, etc. So, in essence, we will have games that cater to specific audiences and then games who will cater to all audiences. There will be tiers of MMOs, not just one juggernaut and a bunch of little guys. Games like Wildstar, EQNext, Titan, in 5 years will inhabit that top tier. The next tier down will be a combination of games that try and do everything, but aren't the best at all of them, but continue to put out high quality content such as Rift, Neverwinter, Dragon's Prophet. On that same tier you will have games that will concentrate mostly on PVP, but are under the god tier of the top three such as ArcheAge, Age of Wushu, EVE, Tera, TSW, others. The last tier will be the crappier F2P titles. This is just my opinion of where I see things going towards today. In it no ways represents that which may change and would shift that opinion differently.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Lets just completely stop talking and comparing to wow. Why bother? The only game that will kill wow, is wow itself.
Personally, I hope EQnext starts in a completely different race. Not challenging wow in any way. Only then, we will get some peace and enjoy the game that we're all looking forward to playing. And hope the devs keep racing in the same race as the one they started in.
My point was that this is basically what people are doing with EQNext. They haven't seen anything, haven't tried it, and are taking the PR speech as exact information on how the game will be.
Keep excitement in check by thinking of what is more likely to be in the game vs what people want there to be in the game and don't get too excited until a lot more information (with actual details involved) comes out.
Well said.
Heres to hoping EQ Next will be the game we're waiting for and, if so, keep being that game without compromise in the years to come.
I completely disagree. Blizzard is the company that makes World of Warcraft. I have to give them credit as they have never stopped adding new features to the game, but there are games out there that have more interesting combat and ideas about what an MMO should evolve into. They are limited by the technology of 9 years ago, perhaps even before that because they started building a game before 2004. It's not my desire for people to look at the top and see a game that comes from 2004. We need something to push the industry into a new age.
Businesses that were once thought juggernauts needed a fresh new kid with new ideas to balance them out. This happened with the baby bell's, AT&T, AOL, Microsoft, IBM. All I am saying is that I think the MMO industry is more like that. Eventually, as good as raiding is in WoW, it will not keep the numbers it even has now. People will continue to get burned out and need a fresh start or new perspective, just like in real life. People will choose to go to these new worlds, specially as they grow up and there aren't new teens to take their place since all the young kids are playing LoL and sexting on snapchat and vine.
whoever said a "sandbox" cant have raiding or even as its mainstay its supposed to be a shark jumper afterall why cant it have it all ?
maybe eqnext doesnt really fit a mold yet defined its something new smedly knows and he aint telling
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Well said points Zaxx. I just don't think anyone is going to try and do it. My reason for thinking this is long experiencing in watching games promise so many things and never deliver. I would rather they underpromise and over deliver.
However having read your post I too can see a glimmer of hope that one day that "might" happen. I like your ideas and wish that SOE had that kind of vision. Sadly I think they don't. It is sad to think that the same company has created groundbreaking gaming platforms cannot bring the same groundbreaking vision to game design.
Defining a game as a WoW-killer is a silly concept, that game will never die. The more time you invest into a game, the less likely you are going to find yourself enjoying a new game. The thought and burden of all the things you've accomplished in the older game will be a weight in the back of your mind. High desire for a new experience and change of game play can help a person overcome the transition to a newer game and commit themselves to playing it. Mostly, people just hop around trying out new games with no intention of staying for very long (which is why a F2P model is so successful in drawing new players).
Mmo gaming is still in its adolescent phase. Developers are introducing new concepts and revitalizing familiar popular concepts all the time. The developers here are not trying to recreate EQ1 with better graphics (while desirable to some, is not logical), but are trying to introduce new game play and experiences for players new and old. Most people fail to realize that the same people who developed content and boss fights in WoW were players of EQ1! Here, for EQNext a team has been assembled of talented producers etc. and former EQ gamers. Each of them are passionate about what they are making, and that's an exciting thought.
Time for everyone to be realistic and calm the excitement meter until August, when they display the game and release information about it.
If someone can name one thing that SOE has done that is a really great idea,let me know,it will give me some confidence they have creativity in their books.
So far the BEST idea i have ever seen in a game is FFXI's "Beseiged".The creatures can be seen walking through the game world towards the major city to invade it.Once they reach the city they do enter and invade it and you fight them off with the aid of the NPC's.
I actually watched tons of creativity in gaming playing FFXI while all the other developers just kept churning out more maps,more levels and more mounts and more dungeons,never anything creative.
I played a TON of EQ2 because it was the best at the same old and looked great as well.However for creativity,i saw nothing awe inspiring.
I also liked some ideas in Runes of Magic like the way gear imbues as well AOC's Tortage city idea was a nice touch.I am really hard pressed to think of good ideas outside of FFXI,so you can see why everyone keeps calling games WOW clones,there has been VERY little creativity.
Here is what SOE has done that comes to mind.
Mentoring,Mercs,scaling "splitpaw",pack pony,dungeon maker,city events.Nothing here is awe inspiring all very small ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
SOE fails a lot more than they succeed and frankly I don't think anyone (other than the developers who SOE doesn't let do their job ), even care if the games they put out are any good. I think this is SOE in a nutshell hype the crap out of the game dupe people into paying money before the game comes out, if the games tanks so what turn it into F2P and take that initial influx of cash and put it into the next project. Then the cycle repeats itself, i know many are gonna say isn't that the whole MMO industry.....and you have a point, but I think SOE is worse at this than any gaming company I have seen. In short believing in a SOE project to me is like believing a politician who can't tell the truth over and over again.
They support their products horribly the GM's are not helpful i mean what else do people need to see before they stop buying into the hype of this company Smedley still has a job for one reason and one reason only cause he keeps making SOE lot's of money off idiots that buy into the crap this company spews out. Every dev i have ever known that worked for SOE left the company for the same reason they don't care about the quality of the games , and they don't let the dev's actually make a great product. Nobody likes being told hey you know all those great things you were working on .....either throw them in the trash or put it on the back burner for an expansion/big patch down the road, and spend the next 6 months rushing the game and making it suck so we can get it out at a certain time of year we think will be more profitable.....that is SOE.
Press hype means nothing to me.
I'm intrigued because of all the sandbox talk, and because they're trying to revive one of the great old school mmos. Whether it will actually deliver is still very much up in the air. I'd like to be wrong, but I'm thinking it's just over hyped at this point, like every other major MMO release.
Frankly, we don't even know how they define the term sandbox. I'm skeptical that they're even using the term in a way that won't be misleading for many of us.