The problem is that games are too fast now. The game is no longer about the overall process of leveling and getting time in end game. Now you are max level in any game in a week with little effort to find a group and getting to know people. Thats just the way it is now because there are too many MMOs on the market. Once the money is no longer there in MMOs publishers will go back to making single/mutliplayer games.
I know I mentioned what we are doing with Firefall, but its hard to talk about how I feel about MMOs without discussing what we are trying to do to address these things. Otherwise I would have to discuss potential solutions like this "hypothetically, if I were to make a new MMO, I would..."
Too much of what we see today is mush. Pap served to open mouthed gamers who just as quickly spit it out with exclamations of "WOW CLONE" "BORING" "TOO CASUAL" etc.
I would like to see more success for game developers..... but only when they do their homework and realize its ok to have a game that attracts a smaller but loyal following with a game tailored to delivering a specific gaming experience.
Aside from the Firefall plug, the theme behind this article is why I don't last long in any MMO anymore. WoW is the most ridiculous game now. I always said getting there wasn't just HALF the game. It WAS the game. I was the slowest to max level in any guild I joined because I wanted to experience the game, and it seemed no one else gave a crap about the game itself.
People would burn through to maximum, paying no attention to the journey, just to switch to complaining full-time about there being no end game. This has become the way to do it.
The final nail in the coffin for WoW was the complete simplification of the talent tree. Instead of figuring out our own spec, our hands were now held on a quest through someone else's opinion of what our spec should be. I tried coming back again and again to the game, only to find it easier and easier. And I never cared about 40-man raids. It was that I ended up skipping so much of the original content because I was leveling so quickly.
And in SWTOR, when the level cap was raised to 65, in the first hour after the patch, I saw 65s hanging out everywhere. Hell, when the game wasn't even six months old, those players who burned through the game got a free month as an apology for lack of endgame. All the developers had to do was make the game a little challenging.
It's sad the most "mainstream" developers can't withstand complaints from people who are there for reward-after-reward instead of those who demand a decent challenge. I remember a time when going from one city to the next was a challenge, or really more like an adventure. And you didn't always have to survive to whole journey, but you didn't care - when you were done, you felt you accomplished something. They've even made shortcuts for that, too.
You don't have to prepare. You don't even have to think anymore.
Mmorpgs have become the adventure developers create, and no longer the adventure the players find in the world. Sure there were always designed gameplay in the world but there were also just .. world. That freedom might not have seemed much, but has slowly been eaten up by all kinds of game mechanics and more designed adventure. We don't see an area of a map that is not used for a quest, not a mob not part of a quest, we don't see a lair of [monster] just because, we don't see skills or spells that are rarely used, everything is optimized, generalized, standardized.
It is not about easy, it is about everything has become simplistic and the freedom has been taken out. That is why Sandbox is a buzzword at the moment, people are crawing for freedom thinking sandbox will solve that, but in reality sandbox can be just as limiting if the real problem with overly designed gameplay is not understood and dealt with.
Risk vs Reward and Fear of Death mean NOTHING in todays MMO's. No MMO after EQ has any fear of Death and pretty much everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
We need to get back to the days of EQ where not every class can solo, nothing was handed to you, no quick travel, etc. I remember my first run across EQ to get from Everfrost to Freeport. What a trip and a thrill. Yeah, now days you click on a portal or fly there skipping over the world like it does not exist.
I really hope EQ Next is done right but then again I know it will not be. It will have auction houses, easy travel, every class will be able to solo to max level etc. It will just be more of the same crap we have today.
Originally posted by Xarko Not necessarily easy, but they became SIMPLE.
they have become easier (to a point) as well as simpler.
How is it easier? people wanting to solo the entire open world content. Because of this, you kill every mob with your eyes closed and not die. Plus the heirloom system makes you overpowered from lvl 1, that = a lot easier. Thats why i dont bother getting heirlooms in wow, to try and keep fights (even with trash mobs) a bit more challenging. And still it feels a lot easier cos while i get stronger, the mobs stay the same. Rift feels the same now (with or without an heirloom system).
Also, i dont think increasing the enemy health points and damage is the best way to make a fight more difficult, i personally think it makes it more annoying. MAking the mobs (including opwn world trash mobs) have more varied abilities on top of damage and health increase (not just being dumb zombies waiting to die), that would make it harder and exiting.
My opinions on making the fights better for everyone in mmos
I was going to say it's ironic that you made a game that you think ruined MMOs, but I suppose it's even more ironic that you are now making firefall thinking it is good. Everyone has their own opinion, but as someone who has almost the exact same view on standard themeparks as you, I found firefall to be extremely tedious, boring and easy after a mere 6 hours.
So I guess you just weren't sated with ruining mmorpgs.. now you are on to mmofps? You don't even realize that the future of mmos is sandboxes!... oh no.... are they next? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Originally posted by sindur Play Darkfall Unholy Wars, its a game where you dont get hand held, you have to figure things out on your own or ask other people who is playing how to improve you skills.
You're joking right? That game is utter garbage. I played it and couldn't believe all the ganking going on. I swear all the gankers of the MMO genre decided to play it. Not only that it's just a completely underwhelming game for what it was supposed to be.
Have you tried the latest patch? There is a ton of PvE content now. Over 150 dynamic missions and ARES missions, 3 new pocket zones, our first 5-man instance, loot drops, improved crafting, VOIP, marketplace, and Jetball eSports mode, and much more.
I agree that Firefall *used* to be just thumping, but not anymore.
Yep, too easy. Can't remember when I last died in any MMORPG.
The only challenge to reach stuff in MMORPGs is the amount of time you have to invest. That's all. Faceroll long enough, and you will see 99% of all content.
It reminds me on this really great game, which was a mixture of RTS and TCG, mostly coop. What was it called... Battle Forge I think. By defeating maps on certain difficulties you could gain cards, which you could use outside a match to set up your army. And cards could only gained by defeating PvE objectives, some of which were really hard. But since it was coop, it was ok. And when you played with people, it was also nice to show off the units in the game that you got by defeating certain hard maps/objectives. People simply knew then that they had a good player in the team.
But then, EA screwed up once more. Instead of defeating maps to get cards, defeating maps gained you some sort of online currency, which you could use to buy cards. So instead of trying hard with some buddies to defeat a very difficult encounter, people were now just defeating a super easy map 200 times. Oh joy... Of course you could then also buy that currency for real money, so any motivation to play the game was instantly destroyed.
Yes for sure. They have become what they where never really meant to be just games. MMorpgs where meant to be living worlds. Here is one hoping eqnext brings this back I honestly think they might.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Have you tried the latest patch? There is a ton of PvE content now. Over 150 dynamic missions and ARES missions, 3 new pocket zones, our first 5-man instance, loot drops, improved crafting, VOIP, marketplace, and Jetball eSports mode, and much more.
I agree that Firefall *used* to be just thumping, but not anymore.
When I see "eSports" attached to an MMO I roll my eyes. Most of a games population doesn't ever participate in eSports.
There could be 50 threads made off of this one. The underlying factor here is instant gratification. Most people want that feeling all the time kinda like the "eternal buzz".
So how do you make a game that is constantly gratifying without being too difficult but not too easy and has enough different variables to keep everybody interested. We are looking for the fountain of youth here. It sure is fun reading all the great feedback.
Comments
if this had not been a "play our game!" i would be all on board with the main concept of this message.
i was in love with vanilla WoW... i earned every piece of purple on my character.
now games hand out giant stats like candy... i play for 20 min and gain half a suit of new armor. so boring.. so fast.
no pride in any accomplishment because it took no effort to accomplish
The problem is that games are too fast now. The game is no longer about the overall process of leveling and getting time in end game. Now you are max level in any game in a week with little effort to find a group and getting to know people. Thats just the way it is now because there are too many MMOs on the market. Once the money is no longer there in MMOs publishers will go back to making single/mutliplayer games.
Follow me on <a href="https://twitter.com/grummz">Twitter: @Grummz<;/a>
Too much of what we see today is mush. Pap served to open mouthed gamers who just as quickly spit it out with exclamations of "WOW CLONE" "BORING" "TOO CASUAL" etc.
I would like to see more success for game developers..... but only when they do their homework and realize its ok to have a game that attracts a smaller but loyal following with a game tailored to delivering a specific gaming experience.
Aside from the Firefall plug, the theme behind this article is why I don't last long in any MMO anymore. WoW is the most ridiculous game now. I always said getting there wasn't just HALF the game. It WAS the game. I was the slowest to max level in any guild I joined because I wanted to experience the game, and it seemed no one else gave a crap about the game itself.
People would burn through to maximum, paying no attention to the journey, just to switch to complaining full-time about there being no end game. This has become the way to do it.
The final nail in the coffin for WoW was the complete simplification of the talent tree. Instead of figuring out our own spec, our hands were now held on a quest through someone else's opinion of what our spec should be. I tried coming back again and again to the game, only to find it easier and easier. And I never cared about 40-man raids. It was that I ended up skipping so much of the original content because I was leveling so quickly.
And in SWTOR, when the level cap was raised to 65, in the first hour after the patch, I saw 65s hanging out everywhere. Hell, when the game wasn't even six months old, those players who burned through the game got a free month as an apology for lack of endgame. All the developers had to do was make the game a little challenging.
It's sad the most "mainstream" developers can't withstand complaints from people who are there for reward-after-reward instead of those who demand a decent challenge. I remember a time when going from one city to the next was a challenge, or really more like an adventure. And you didn't always have to survive to whole journey, but you didn't care - when you were done, you felt you accomplished something. They've even made shortcuts for that, too.
You don't have to prepare. You don't even have to think anymore.
Mmorpgs have become the adventure developers create, and no longer the adventure the players find in the world. Sure there were always designed gameplay in the world but there were also just .. world. That freedom might not have seemed much, but has slowly been eaten up by all kinds of game mechanics and more designed adventure. We don't see an area of a map that is not used for a quest, not a mob not part of a quest, we don't see a lair of [monster] just because, we don't see skills or spells that are rarely used, everything is optimized, generalized, standardized.
It is not about easy, it is about everything has become simplistic and the freedom has been taken out. That is why Sandbox is a buzzword at the moment, people are crawing for freedom thinking sandbox will solve that, but in reality sandbox can be just as limiting if the real problem with overly designed gameplay is not understood and dealt with.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Risk vs Reward and Fear of Death mean NOTHING in todays MMO's. No MMO after EQ has any fear of Death and pretty much everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
We need to get back to the days of EQ where not every class can solo, nothing was handed to you, no quick travel, etc. I remember my first run across EQ to get from Everfrost to Freeport. What a trip and a thrill. Yeah, now days you click on a portal or fly there skipping over the world like it does not exist.
I really hope EQ Next is done right but then again I know it will not be. It will have auction houses, easy travel, every class will be able to solo to max level etc. It will just be more of the same crap we have today.
they have become easier (to a point) as well as simpler.
How is it easier? people wanting to solo the entire open world content. Because of this, you kill every mob with your eyes closed and not die. Plus the heirloom system makes you overpowered from lvl 1, that = a lot easier. Thats why i dont bother getting heirlooms in wow, to try and keep fights (even with trash mobs) a bit more challenging. And still it feels a lot easier cos while i get stronger, the mobs stay the same. Rift feels the same now (with or without an heirloom system).
Also, i dont think increasing the enemy health points and damage is the best way to make a fight more difficult, i personally think it makes it more annoying. MAking the mobs (including opwn world trash mobs) have more varied abilities on top of damage and health increase (not just being dumb zombies waiting to die), that would make it harder and exiting.
My opinions on making the fights better for everyone in mmos
I was going to say it's ironic that you made a game that you think ruined MMOs, but I suppose it's even more ironic that you are now making firefall thinking it is good. Everyone has their own opinion, but as someone who has almost the exact same view on standard themeparks as you, I found firefall to be extremely tedious, boring and easy after a mere 6 hours.
So I guess you just weren't sated with ruining mmorpgs.. now you are on to mmofps? You don't even realize that the future of mmos is sandboxes!... oh no.... are they next? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
You're joking right? That game is utter garbage. I played it and couldn't believe all the ganking going on. I swear all the gankers of the MMO genre decided to play it. Not only that it's just a completely underwhelming game for what it was supposed to be.
Smile
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Gaming since 1985; Online gaming since 1995; No End in Sight! My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8POVoJ8fdOseuJ4U1ZX-oA
Have you tried the latest patch? There is a ton of PvE content now. Over 150 dynamic missions and ARES missions, 3 new pocket zones, our first 5-man instance, loot drops, improved crafting, VOIP, marketplace, and Jetball eSports mode, and much more.
I agree that Firefall *used* to be just thumping, but not anymore.
Follow me on <a href="https://twitter.com/grummz">Twitter: @Grummz<;/a>
Yep, too easy. Can't remember when I last died in any MMORPG.
The only challenge to reach stuff in MMORPGs is the amount of time you have to invest. That's all. Faceroll long enough, and you will see 99% of all content.
It reminds me on this really great game, which was a mixture of RTS and TCG, mostly coop. What was it called... Battle Forge I think. By defeating maps on certain difficulties you could gain cards, which you could use outside a match to set up your army. And cards could only gained by defeating PvE objectives, some of which were really hard. But since it was coop, it was ok. And when you played with people, it was also nice to show off the units in the game that you got by defeating certain hard maps/objectives. People simply knew then that they had a good player in the team.
But then, EA screwed up once more. Instead of defeating maps to get cards, defeating maps gained you some sort of online currency, which you could use to buy cards. So instead of trying hard with some buddies to defeat a very difficult encounter, people were now just defeating a super easy map 200 times. Oh joy... Of course you could then also buy that currency for real money, so any motivation to play the game was instantly destroyed.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
When I see "eSports" attached to an MMO I roll my eyes. Most of a games population doesn't ever participate in eSports.
Smile
Follow me on <a href="https://twitter.com/grummz">Twitter: @Grummz<;/a>
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
There could be 50 threads made off of this one. The underlying factor here is instant gratification. Most people want that feeling all the time kinda like the "eternal buzz".
So how do you make a game that is constantly gratifying without being too difficult but not too easy and has enough different variables to keep everybody interested. We are looking for the fountain of youth here. It sure is fun reading all the great feedback.