Are they going to remove the unjustified grind and time sink out of the game and patch in some actual engaging content?
Open Beta might be pretty brutal.
Respect to Bill Murphy for not letting Red5 "beta" excuse themselves out of Firefalls various shortcomings. Hopefully they'll take the steps necessary to make the game reasonable for public consumption at launch.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Just to chime in on the whole “Open Beta Vs release” issue: it’s not so black and white! Try not to have such a two dimensional perspective.
Having a cash shop open and choosing not to wipe characters does not automatically class a game as released, finished, ready; you should make your judgements based on the games features and current state of development as opposed to these “hidden rules” that have been imagined up.
In the case of Neverwinter for example, the game was clearly fully released with an open beta tag slapped on; it was not a real open beta at all and this was obvious, but that does not mean that every game with an open beta and a cash shop is in the same situation or is following this same “business practice.”
Now I have not played Firefall for a number of months so I cannot comment on whether or not it will indeed be a true open beta, just saying...use logic and common sense!
MMORPG.com are entitled to review the game is they really believe it is (or will soon be) “finished.” I am just trying to weave some words of wisdom in between the misinformation.
"FireFall has no wipes and our Cash Shop is open for your money. But it's still BETA. Red 5 does not care what the definition of BETA is for the rest of the gaming industry."
It's confusing as fuck and it's a PR nightmare, Red5 stupidly trying to explain everyone Red5's odd definition of beta.
Neverwinter was/is a disaster. They released way too early and all the bugs/exploits destroyed the game for me. I really hope Firefall won't do the same thing - BUT I will not be playing until I see some kind of review.
Neverwinter made sure I never, ever play or invest money into a so called F2P game until I see a review.
“Red 5 is dedicated to supporting the future of eSports and we believe that creating a more compelling experience for participants and spectators will further the cause of competitive gaming”, said Morgan Romine, eSports Maven of Red 5 Studios. “The newly launched eSports Toolkit is just the tip of the iceburg. We will be supporting this initiative with our Mobile Gaming Unit this fall and providing a huge payout for elite competitive gamers in 2013”.
Personally I'm pretty disappointed in the direction FireFall has taken. Red5 started out with promises of 1,000,000 dollars prize money in 2013 but at PAX east Red5 didn't talk about PvP at all, the CEO said the focus was all PvE.
The entire million seems to have been silently cancelled and Red5 wont give a strait answer. And if you push them for a strait answer, trying to get Red5 to keep their word or at least give SOME information, you get perm banned for continuous trolling.
So the million dollar prize pool was just a marketing ploy. Red5 never intended to pay out a single dime.
I dunno... Up to each person to judge whether to give Red5 money. I think they've lost a lot of credibility by their bombastic $1,000,000 press release that they then attempt to sweep under the rug.
Just to chime in on the whole “Open Beta Vs release” issue: it’s not so black and white! Try not to have such a two dimensional perspective.
Having a cash shop open and choosing not to wipe characters does not automatically class a game as released, finished, ready; you should make your judgements based on the games features and current state of development as opposed to these “hidden rules” that have been imagined up.
Yes. It does make your game released. I don't think people understand the amount of word manipulation that's going on here. Beta by it's definition (in the past) means that the product is not content complete, and is filled with bugs that need working out. It meant that if the game was "officially" released in that state, it wouldn't be up to the standards of the game industry at large.
.
The problem is that PR teams have taken to the idea of applying the beta tag to a released product. Why? Because there's a large contingent of people who will be directly fooled into thinking that it's ok if a released product is incomplete if it has the mythical beta tag on it. People aren't ok with an incomplete product if it's deemed release, but they can be fooled if you call a release product beta. It's nothing more than hardcore deception of people who don't know any better.
.
Thankfully, there's plenty of people in the games journalism world who aren't giving companies a pass when they try to release woefully incomplete games and call them a beta. Whatever reviews Firefall may get in the next week will be the reviews it deserves, make no mistake.
Patch would be much better if they brought back the tech tree's. Being forced to do crafting is awful, expecially for a shooter! Need crafting just to level!
Patch would be much better if they brought back the tech tree's. Being forced to do crafting is awful, expecially for a shooter! Need crafting just to level!
Not sure why the awful focus on crafting...
I would guess that the focus on crafting is more or less focusing on something that's "more done" than the things that aren't done. Making things artificially slow in the one system they have that's somewhat fleshed out is a way of distracting people from the absolute dearth of content in the rest of the game. Most of the things that were implemented in the last patch were user unfriendly features designed at ringing out max playtime on a miniscule amount of content. You didn't think they added things like durability for the fun of the users did you?
.
In the end, the glassdoor tell-all reviews probably explain best what happened with this project. And contrary to Red 5's explanation that the first batch were mere disgruntled employees, the latest two reviews (just last month) end up confirming the first batch.
It all paints the tale of a studio in where there were a lot of ideas and talented people, but no overriding force cracking down on people to get the meat of the project done. Meaning that literally years of development time that could have went towards making 30-40 hours of unique content (before really repeating) went down the toilet. Better management in the studio likely would have lead to a much more feature complete game.
Its pretty clear from reading all theses posts here that noone has actually recently played FF since the last patch. or if that at all.
speculations are here left and right.
my advice is play the game July 9th and then comment. because right now many of you sound like
spectators watching a football game instead of actually playing in the football game.
that is all.
It's the height of arrogance to think that the negative criticism and lack of hype for the game comes from people not playing the game. People have played the game (including the recent patch), and they're anything but impressed. Sorry?
Its pretty clear from reading all theses posts here that noone has actually recently played FF since the last patch. or if that at all.
speculations are here left and right.
my advice is play the game July 9th and then comment. because right now many of you sound like
spectators watching a football game instead of actually playing in the football game.
that is all.
I've been in and out of Firefall since the tree progression. Any other theories on why I don't think there isn't any viable content in the game, or why I think it's an unjustified grind fest with unreasonable time sinks and gates? Is my opinion that the PVE encounters play like Space Invaders valid now?
Excuse time is over.
Hail Marys are always possible, I actually hope they do have a miracle patch coming.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Once you hit the combined point of permanent progress (no wipes) and taking money, your game is released.
QFT
I think it's a little more complicated than that. In a closed test it is hard to attract good testers and it's hard to keep people testing especially wipe after wipe.
Not really. If your game is good (see: FFXIV) people will play the crap out of it even when there's an impending wipe. You don't need to bribe people to get them to play a good game.
This article is essential and needed so that people that played Firefall in the past and thought it was mediocre come back and see that the quest structure "in particular" has made a vast open world dynamic jump and is very cerebral and exciting.
It has actually been alot better since the last patch and if anyone played it in the past and thinks it's the same should definitely come back and try again as it has improved quite a bit.
Thanks for doing it! Longest I've seen a code offered without redemption on this site in quite awhile!
For me, I've tried to keep away from the genre ever since SWTOR, don't get me wrong, I liked it, but it was not ultimately what I wanted. That said, I've kept away from a lot of titles, and only recently started paying attention to FireFall. I'm looking forward to seeing what it is, and taking it for a spin, and forming my own impressions.
@Dakirn - Sorry mate but the second you start allowing I game purchases (founders packs / pre-orders are different) then it is no longer any sort of BETA, instead it is a release. Sure it can be a work in progress release like almost every other MMO it will develop & change over time. Devs need to stop treating players as suckers with this "BETA but you can spend money and we won't do wipes" crap.
If kickstarter can take money for development generally without a playable game what is the problem with a game in development and live offering options for financial support??
"Next week, Firefall officially goes into open beta. That’s the same kind of Open Beta that we reviewed Neverwinter during, and Dragon’s Prophet. It means they’re letting anyone and everyone in, not wiping characters, and taking money from customers."
This is the new normal then, you say the game is becoming beta and open the doors to all. But the cash shop is open and no toons will be wiped. This is a launch and any problems will be blamed on it being a beta.
Glad to hear MMORPG.com intends to start the weekly review process now, these companies are trying to pull the wool over players yes.
In answer to other posters questions, I have always said do not pre-order and you take part in a Kickstarter at your own peril. It is amazing how easily punters are parted from their money before they see the actual product. To be fair you are seeing more of a MMO in beta than you are when you pre-order a game, but the same principle applies. They are taking your money before the goods are fit for sale.
Just to chime in on the whole “Open Beta Vs release” issue: it’s not so black and white! Try not to have such a two dimensional perspective.
Having a cash shop open and choosing not to wipe characters does not automatically class a game as released, finished, ready; you should make your judgements based on the games features and current state of development as opposed to these “hidden rules” that have been imagined up.
Yes. It does make your game released. I don't think people understand the amount of word manipulation that's going on here. Beta by it's definition (in the past) means that the product is not content complete, and is filled with bugs that need working out. It meant that if the game was "officially" released in that state, it wouldn't be up to the standards of the game industry at large.
.
The problem is that PR teams have taken to the idea of applying the beta tag to a released product. Why? Because there's a large contingent of people who will be directly fooled into thinking that it's ok if a released product is incomplete if it has the mythical beta tag on it. People aren't ok with an incomplete product if it's deemed release, but they can be fooled if you call a release product beta. It's nothing more than hardcore deception of people who don't know any better.
.
Thankfully, there's plenty of people in the games journalism world who aren't giving companies a pass when they try to release woefully incomplete games and call them a beta. Whatever reviews Firefall may get in the next week will be the reviews it deserves, make no mistake.
I understand perfectly the level of manipulation hence the mention of Neverwinter. I still disagree. As I said the fact that you charge for a service does not necessarily mean that the said service is “finished;” it’s simply not as black and white as that.
As you say yourself a beta is not content complete, still has many bugs and so forth. You can launch an open beta that meets these requirements while also choosing to open your cash shop and opting not to wipe any progression; this does not automatically mean that the game is a finished and refined live service.
For Example, what if there were to be a game on Kickstarter and the proposed “launch” version will have 7 races, 7 classes, 7 continents, 7 dungeons, 7 raids and 7 warzones. Now, at some point within this hypothetical game’s development the company decide to launch an open beta, for real “open beta reasons.” At this point in said game’s development there is 1 race, 1 class, 1 continent, 1 dungeon, 1 raid and 1 warzone; we can clearly see that it is nowhere near finished and that the open beta is genuine, but guess what? The company have also decided to keep all character progression permanent as a sort of perk for beta testers, and they have opted to open their cash shop to the public to generate more revenue for further development. Does this suddenly mean that this clearly incomplete game is now complete?
This is what I am getting at; you need to use judgement and logic as opposed to an unwritten blanket rule.
I agree entirely that it is poor business practice to release a game and pretend it is beta. I see why some companies do this and the advantages are clear, and yes many people do get “suckered” into it. Does this mean that every game with a live cash shop is automatically finished even if it is very clearly not? Come on now.
Bill.. for the love of god, don't compare the FireFall Open Beta to Neverwinter. Never, ever.. EVER do that.
Seriously, the Neverwinter launch/open beta fiasco is making it harder for games to do a beta without people expecting it to be in a release state and then complaining everywhere the game isn't finished... and things like you mentioned in the article aren't helping.
I've already spoken to Red 5 and their PR. While they're calling it Open Beta, and want people to know it's still "Beta", they also know that letting anyone and everyone in, not wiping characters, and taking money and treating it like a live service means we're going to review it.
It's that simple. They can call it what they want to call it, but when it hits Open Beta on the 9th, we'll be treating it like a live product and reviewing it because it's taking money and will for all intents and purposes be "live".
It's not just Neverwinter that did this either. But oh-so-many F2P games across the board. Just because they're higher profile doesn't mean they get a pass. In fact, it likely means they'll be more under the microscope, and from what I can gather Red 5 is prepared for that.
Just to chime in on the whole “Open Beta Vs release” issue: it’s not so black and white! Try not to have such a two dimensional perspective.
Having a cash shop open and choosing not to wipe characters does not automatically class a game as released, finished, ready; you should make your judgements based on the games features and current state of development as opposed to these “hidden rules” that have been imagined up.
Yes. It does make your game released. I don't think people understand the amount of word manipulation that's going on here. Beta by it's definition (in the past) means that the product is not content complete, and is filled with bugs that need working out. It meant that if the game was "officially" released in that state, it wouldn't be up to the standards of the game industry at large.
.
The problem is that PR teams have taken to the idea of applying the beta tag to a released product. Why? Because there's a large contingent of people who will be directly fooled into thinking that it's ok if a released product is incomplete if it has the mythical beta tag on it. People aren't ok with an incomplete product if it's deemed release, but they can be fooled if you call a release product beta. It's nothing more than hardcore deception of people who don't know any better.
.
Thankfully, there's plenty of people in the games journalism world who aren't giving companies a pass when they try to release woefully incomplete games and call them a beta. Whatever reviews Firefall may get in the next week will be the reviews it deserves, make no mistake.
I understand perfectly the level of manipulation hence the mention of Neverwinter. I still disagree. As I said the fact that you charge for a service does not necessarily mean that the said service is “finished;” it’s simply not as black and white as that.
As you say yourself a beta is not content complete, still has many bugs and so forth. You can launch an open beta that meets these requirements while also choosing to open your cash shop and opting not to wipe any progression; this does not automatically mean that the game is a finished and refined live service.
For Example, what if there were to be a game on Kickstarter and the proposed “launch” version will have 7 races, 7 classes, 7 continents, 7 dungeons, 7 raids and 7 warzones. Now, at some point within this hypothetical game’s development the company decide to launch an open beta, for real “open beta reasons.” At this point in said game’s development there is 1 race, 1 class, 1 continent, 1 dungeon, 1 raid and 1 warzone; we can clearly see that it is nowhere near finished and that the open beta is genuine, but guess what? The company have also decided to keep all character progression permanent as a sort of perk for beta testers, and they have opted to open their cash shop to the public to generate more revenue for further development. Does this suddenly mean that this clearly incomplete game is now complete?
This is what I am getting at; you need to use judgement and logic as opposed to an unwritten blanket rule.
I agree entirely that it is poor business practice to release a game and pretend it is beta. I see why some companies do this and the advantages are clear, and yes many people do get “suckered” into it. Does this mean that every game with a live cash shop is automatically finished even if it is very clearly not? Come on now.
if you are confident enough in a game to take people money for in game stuff, and state you will not need to do a char whipe again, then it is a finished product.
don't let the lack of a sub fool you, cause the cash shop is the replacement for the subs.
you can argue aginst it all you want but in the end, companies that do tis are ether idiots or mone grubbing.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Comments
Are they going to remove the unjustified grind and time sink out of the game and patch in some actual engaging content?
Open Beta might be pretty brutal.
Respect to Bill Murphy for not letting Red5 "beta" excuse themselves out of Firefalls various shortcomings. Hopefully they'll take the steps necessary to make the game reasonable for public consumption at launch.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
QFT
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Just to chime in on the whole “Open Beta Vs release” issue: it’s not so black and white! Try not to have such a two dimensional perspective.
Having a cash shop open and choosing not to wipe characters does not automatically class a game as released, finished, ready; you should make your judgements based on the games features and current state of development as opposed to these “hidden rules” that have been imagined up.
In the case of Neverwinter for example, the game was clearly fully released with an open beta tag slapped on; it was not a real open beta at all and this was obvious, but that does not mean that every game with an open beta and a cash shop is in the same situation or is following this same “business practice.”
Now I have not played Firefall for a number of months so I cannot comment on whether or not it will indeed be a true open beta, just saying...use logic and common sense!
MMORPG.com are entitled to review the game is they really believe it is (or will soon be) “finished.” I am just trying to weave some words of wisdom in between the misinformation.
"FireFall has no wipes and our Cash Shop is open for your money. But it's still BETA. Red 5 does not care what the definition of BETA is for the rest of the gaming industry."
It's confusing as fuck and it's a PR nightmare, Red5 stupidly trying to explain everyone Red5's odd definition of beta.
Neverwinter was/is a disaster. They released way too early and all the bugs/exploits destroyed the game for me. I really hope Firefall won't do the same thing - BUT I will not be playing until I see some kind of review.
Neverwinter made sure I never, ever play or invest money into a so called F2P game until I see a review.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/news/gameId/566/showArticle/25278
Firefall News - Ready to Hand Out $1M Through 2013
Personally I'm pretty disappointed in the direction FireFall has taken. Red5 started out with promises of 1,000,000 dollars prize money in 2013 but at PAX east Red5 didn't talk about PvP at all, the CEO said the focus was all PvE.
The entire million seems to have been silently cancelled and Red5 wont give a strait answer. And if you push them for a strait answer, trying to get Red5 to keep their word or at least give SOME information, you get perm banned for continuous trolling.
So the million dollar prize pool was just a marketing ploy. Red5 never intended to pay out a single dime.
Yes. It does make your game released. I don't think people understand the amount of word manipulation that's going on here. Beta by it's definition (in the past) means that the product is not content complete, and is filled with bugs that need working out. It meant that if the game was "officially" released in that state, it wouldn't be up to the standards of the game industry at large.
.
The problem is that PR teams have taken to the idea of applying the beta tag to a released product. Why? Because there's a large contingent of people who will be directly fooled into thinking that it's ok if a released product is incomplete if it has the mythical beta tag on it. People aren't ok with an incomplete product if it's deemed release, but they can be fooled if you call a release product beta. It's nothing more than hardcore deception of people who don't know any better.
.
Thankfully, there's plenty of people in the games journalism world who aren't giving companies a pass when they try to release woefully incomplete games and call them a beta. Whatever reviews Firefall may get in the next week will be the reviews it deserves, make no mistake.
Patch would be much better if they brought back the tech tree's. Being forced to do crafting is awful, expecially for a shooter! Need crafting just to level!
Not sure why the awful focus on crafting...
I would guess that the focus on crafting is more or less focusing on something that's "more done" than the things that aren't done. Making things artificially slow in the one system they have that's somewhat fleshed out is a way of distracting people from the absolute dearth of content in the rest of the game. Most of the things that were implemented in the last patch were user unfriendly features designed at ringing out max playtime on a miniscule amount of content. You didn't think they added things like durability for the fun of the users did you?
.
In the end, the glassdoor tell-all reviews probably explain best what happened with this project. And contrary to Red 5's explanation that the first batch were mere disgruntled employees, the latest two reviews (just last month) end up confirming the first batch.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Red-5-Studios-Reviews-E266907.htm
.
It all paints the tale of a studio in where there were a lot of ideas and talented people, but no overriding force cracking down on people to get the meat of the project done. Meaning that literally years of development time that could have went towards making 30-40 hours of unique content (before really repeating) went down the toilet. Better management in the studio likely would have lead to a much more feature complete game.
Its pretty clear from reading all theses posts here that noone has actually recently played FF since the last patch. or if that at all.
speculations are here left and right.
my advice is play the game July 9th and then comment. because right now many of you sound like
spectators watching a football game instead of actually playing in the football game.
that is all.
It's the height of arrogance to think that the negative criticism and lack of hype for the game comes from people not playing the game. People have played the game (including the recent patch), and they're anything but impressed. Sorry?
I've been in and out of Firefall since the tree progression. Any other theories on why I don't think there isn't any viable content in the game, or why I think it's an unjustified grind fest with unreasonable time sinks and gates? Is my opinion that the PVE encounters play like Space Invaders valid now?
Excuse time is over.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
exactly, it blows chunks imo
Not really. If your game is good (see: FFXIV) people will play the crap out of it even when there's an impending wipe. You don't need to bribe people to get them to play a good game.
This article is essential and needed so that people that played Firefall in the past and thought it was mediocre come back and see that the quest structure "in particular" has made a vast open world dynamic jump and is very cerebral and exciting.
It has actually been alot better since the last patch and if anyone played it in the past and thinks it's the same should definitely come back and try again as it has improved quite a bit.
Running open world missions is hella fun.
open beta means they soft release the game because there are no money.
The game is not their final vision but they release it in order to complete their vision by earning some money from people that play.
Although the game is not on it's full release vision it's pretty much playable but with a lot of things missing.
For example marvel heroes has been released but the game is treated like open beta.
Closed Beta Key: J1H4X-AMESO-YO2OJ-XWM1Y
Please, post when you take it.
Have fun!
Gaming since 1985; Online gaming since 1995; No End in Sight! My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8POVoJ8fdOseuJ4U1ZX-oA
Thanks for doing it! Longest I've seen a code offered without redemption on this site in quite awhile!
For me, I've tried to keep away from the genre ever since SWTOR, don't get me wrong, I liked it, but it was not ultimately what I wanted. That said, I've kept away from a lot of titles, and only recently started paying attention to FireFall. I'm looking forward to seeing what it is, and taking it for a spin, and forming my own impressions.
Cheers for posting the code!
"Next week, Firefall officially goes into open beta. That’s the same kind of Open Beta that we reviewed Neverwinter during, and Dragon’s Prophet. It means they’re letting anyone and everyone in, not wiping characters, and taking money from customers."
This is the new normal then, you say the game is becoming beta and open the doors to all. But the cash shop is open and no toons will be wiped. This is a launch and any problems will be blamed on it being a beta.
Glad to hear MMORPG.com intends to start the weekly review process now, these companies are trying to pull the wool over players yes.
In answer to other posters questions, I have always said do not pre-order and you take part in a Kickstarter at your own peril. It is amazing how easily punters are parted from their money before they see the actual product. To be fair you are seeing more of a MMO in beta than you are when you pre-order a game, but the same principle applies. They are taking your money before the goods are fit for sale.
I understand perfectly the level of manipulation hence the mention of Neverwinter. I still disagree. As I said the fact that you charge for a service does not necessarily mean that the said service is “finished;” it’s simply not as black and white as that.
As you say yourself a beta is not content complete, still has many bugs and so forth. You can launch an open beta that meets these requirements while also choosing to open your cash shop and opting not to wipe any progression; this does not automatically mean that the game is a finished and refined live service.
For Example, what if there were to be a game on Kickstarter and the proposed “launch” version will have 7 races, 7 classes, 7 continents, 7 dungeons, 7 raids and 7 warzones. Now, at some point within this hypothetical game’s development the company decide to launch an open beta, for real “open beta reasons.” At this point in said game’s development there is 1 race, 1 class, 1 continent, 1 dungeon, 1 raid and 1 warzone; we can clearly see that it is nowhere near finished and that the open beta is genuine, but guess what? The company have also decided to keep all character progression permanent as a sort of perk for beta testers, and they have opted to open their cash shop to the public to generate more revenue for further development. Does this suddenly mean that this clearly incomplete game is now complete?
This is what I am getting at; you need to use judgement and logic as opposed to an unwritten blanket rule.
I agree entirely that it is poor business practice to release a game and pretend it is beta. I see why some companies do this and the advantages are clear, and yes many people do get “suckered” into it. Does this mean that every game with a live cash shop is automatically finished even if it is very clearly not? Come on now.
I guess Bill doesn't love God...../wink.
if you are confident enough in a game to take people money for in game stuff, and state you will not need to do a char whipe again, then it is a finished product.
don't let the lack of a sub fool you, cause the cash shop is the replacement for the subs.
you can argue aginst it all you want but in the end, companies that do tis are ether idiots or mone grubbing.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.