Not a big fan of COMPANIES selling game changing gear. More than fine with costumes, pets, vehicles, invisible friends, anything that doesn't change your actual abilities or competitive level.
However, if I raid for 30 straight days and land a space dragon that fights with you and works like a mobile bank, I want to be able to drop that on the open market for $500 real money and pay my rent. More than happy to have rich, lazy types pay me for my time and effort. Besides, with most games today, there is little entertainment or joy anyway; let me profit off of the grind, and I will happily share 15% with the game company.
Originally posted by swizards01 I want a real money cash grab so i can buy a new computer for my hard work in the game. For people that have a job and no time to play the game. They can buy my rare item, i don't care how many times they can kill me on pvp because i got a real money. Those people getting board the game they can sell the item to get there money back. The developer can also earn money daily for those people selling item by collecting tax. You can trade your gold in the market only, not in other character for safe. And no other website can sell the gold because you can't trade it in other character. Like on D3 there is other website selling gold, scam, hacking and i don't like it.
I like also the game Economic to add because it can help not to overprice or lower the gold price in the market. What i am thinking is not only pay 2 win is all about strategy. Both players and developer can earn money. I want the developer to add more pvp skills in the game so player knows this is not only pay2win. I want Free 2 play not only Pay2Win the game, this is all about strategy. Look like stock market The future game is Swords Art Online....I want you to watch this anime.
To expand on what Chris said about empowering lazy design I'll also chip in with a variation of the theme. One of my biggest concerns since the inception gear in item/cash shops is if/when developers begin to design content with the "intent" to be so un-fun, grindy, or just so dull that players rush to the store to acquire gear so they can avoid it. As a creative process no dev team I've ever encountered had the mental flexibility to both create engaging immersive content while simultaneously creating content made with intent to discourage play. Those are two distinctly different approaches to design. Ultimately imho, that path of design philosophy gives you a much shorter half-life before you can't milk it any more.
My biggest concern would be the way mmos are going with lock boxes .it totally ruins the immersion of a game if you suddenly get a lock box drop only to discover you have to buy the keys ,I can think of two major games doing this at the moment and im sure there are more .the other thing is this you have a guild of say 20 to 30 people half of them decide to buy raiding gear and then when the guild wants to do a raid or something you have the players who have brought the gear saying meh I don't need anything in their not doing that ,yeah I know there prob still be a few would help but you get the picture .
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
There are so many tangents we could go off on here. Lets not muddy the water up with "buying gear" as another name for f2p or pay to win, they are both either directly tied to or indirectly tied to aquiring the best gear.
Buying anything other than the game or a sub is a deal breaker. Even fluff items. It seems that devs can't even handle "fluff items" correctly. I started to think fluff was ok, but it's not. You see what happens is you give a little they take a little more then a little more and so on..... The firm stance to preserve a pleasant gaming experience is buy to play or sub to play with no tolorance for cash shops or micro transactions of any sort. All they do is take away what could have been part of the game. Mmorpgs can take the high road and teach life lessons or the can continue this downward spiral much like casino's do. I'm afraid that with this upcoming culture that's ignorant as to what to expect, the days of an enjoyable mmorpg are coming to an end.
Originally posted by Tindale111 My biggest concern would be the way mmos are going with lock boxes .it totally ruins the immersion of a game if you suddenly get a lock box drop only to discover you have to buy the keys ,I can think of two major games doing this at the moment and im sure there are more .the other thing is this you have a guild of say 20 to 30 people half of them decide to buy raiding gear and then when the guild wants to do a raid or something you have the players who have brought the gear saying meh I don't need anything in their not doing that ,yeah I know there prob still be a few would help but you get the picture .
^This. I started playing Neverwinter, found the game pretty fun the first few mob kills, then as soon as I picked up one of the lock boxes that required you to pay to open (literally 10 min into my time in game), I immediatly got turned off.
Originally posted by swizards01 I want a real money cash grab so i can buy a new computer for my hard work in the game. For people that have a job and no time to play the game. They can buy my rare item, i don't care how many times they can kill me on pvp because i got a real money. Those people getting board the game they can sell the item to get there money back. The developer can also earn money daily for those people selling item by collecting tax. You can trade your gold in the market only, not in other character for safe. And no other website can sell the gold because you can't trade it in other character. Like on D3 there is other website selling gold, scam, hacking and i don't like it.
I like also the game Economic to add because it can help not to overprice or lower the gold price in the market. What i am thinking is not only pay 2 win is all about strategy. Both players and developer can earn money. I want the developer to add more pvp skills in the game so player knows this is not only pay2win. I want Free 2 play not only Pay2Win the game, this is all about strategy. Look like stock market The future game is Swords Art Online....I want you to watch this anime.
Example:
I pay buy his item to win this game -----------------> Can i still win i don't have more skills and hard work?
Hahahaha i am the fastest clicker in this game ---------------> I think i have a chance to win this game by earning more rewards.
Hahahaha i am hardworking --------------------> i have more chance to win this game by selling gear, crafting, farming and trading.
funny is on that debate of your you lacked to say what the in game economy could feel, hey lets sell gear on our CS becasue we are sure people will pay, its like that old history of people buying over 10K grants to make a top upgraded weapon to play, several people will pay gladly for it, same people will pay a hooker if they lack the game to get woman, but lets keep this simple, if you sell gear in game how crafters will feel about it? for me would be far more interesting you ahve to raid for mats so a high grade crafter will make the gear but also not be like the top end like you need 20 items from X raid to craft the item but the drop is random and if it drop is 1 and the raid group is 24 people all roling for that item, that is the poor design in place devs need to try to make people play they game but they can't make it fun they make it a chore, so people complain about it so they way of thinking? let's sell it for RL money you pretty much tell than oh you make a crap job but i'm paying you a bonus for it, if I did a crap job on my work sure thing I would or lose it or heard about it till the end of world not getting a bonus for it, you also come down to when it will stop?
they will sell lvls too?
a real player know when a dude playing did really lvl his char or buy it from ebay, he simple put suck, don't know even the basic mechanics of the game to play his class right, so after a while, and most players don't group up later with then, so what happen? people start to cry because they can't do the whole content for lack of groups( sure it the game problem I can't play right after I bought this char from ebay) tehn devs cater then so it become easier so you don't need groups again, then after 2 months game die and people ask what they did wrong?
MMORPG genre lost quality over time to gather more people and the funny part is most of player base will bash anygame who try to bring something diferently and if it try to amke teh same old thing they will yell its a copy and we sure also have players who will let crap job pass as long they feel like they are fighting against the big men.
for chris point of view saying making a good joke takes time and money and they simple can't sack all games already done, I say we need to start, sooner we do sooner we will start to make worlds not lame games we lose interest after 6 months top and if keep thinking like that they can't do it because of what was already done we will never leave this hole this genre is and to each same copy and crap job they only get bigger
I'm personally against pay to win (gear being sold in the cash shop) for the simple fact that it rewards the wealthy and demorilizes the not so wealthy which -- in my opinion -- kills games, but on the other hand it reflects the real world in that those with money will always be on top while those without have to struggle to get there (if they ever do). I will say that I LOVE vanity items and have spent more than I care to admit on them, but actual gear and even in game money being sold for real money has turned me off from several games. I'll also admit I don't generally put a lot of time into playing MMOs and when I do I play to enjoy myself rather than grind content so I tend to level slowly and fall behind those I had been playing with.
I absolutely love the idea behind this column. It's like a cross between debate team and good old fashioned internet trolling.
On topic - I prefer games where player skill > gear or character skill, so in that context, there's very little you could do to "pay 2 win".
Bingo.
To my thought. I think the conversation has moved far beyond cash shops and into real money trading. What companies are doing now is leaving cash shops cosmetic, but allow the purchase of gold then converting it to in game currency which can buy anything in game.
Selling items to even more max out your gear (for example make it a sure +15 gear): WORST IDEA EVER. But thats what happens to STO or every other perfectworld game. I played one (Heroes of three Kingdoms) - they did not even patch any error for over 10 months!
Selling Skins for your gear on cash-shop: nice idea. If you have money and want your character to look shiny and glowy, you can either do some specific dungeon to get sth like dungeon medals to buy that skin ingame or buy it via cash shop for the ones who hv no time. But not gear with complete max-stats or uber-stats.
We play games , create characters and enter unreal worlds to become someone else and play the roles we can choose - outside real world.
Having an option like buying gear or anything , even customisation items or some sort of boosts for real money , "chains" you between game world and real world , the "chain" which doesnt allow you to fully break out of real world and simply make it TRUE new ROLE play experience.
For me it is problem with that feeling of "chains" that prevents me from using all the tools provided , understanding that real life have influenced my game experience... this is not what i would pay for.
...stop making games for players to pay
...start making games for players to play
I hate to see how every 3rd game asks you to pay for unlocking content , every 2nd provides you advantage for $ .
...If games need that much money to play it , soon people will have to spend more time working making money for games rather then playing them ))
IF a person does fork out real money to buy an item from the cash shop, who does it really hurt? How does it effect YOU if he buys an item? How does it effect YOUR game play if he buys an item? The ONLY person that it should effect is the person purchasing the item from the cash shop.
In a way this is like the Abortion debate that keeps going on and on and on. The ONLY person that SHOULD have a say in the matter is the person that is having the Abortion and everyone else can stuff their opinions since it is not their body that is having the procedure done to it.
I guess EVE's system works because all it actually does is to provide players (those that want to spend the money) with extra ingame currency.
EVE is perfectly playable without the extra currency, and that currency cannot buy you anything that isn't bought and sold on the market every day.
Eve's system works but it's not repeatable. Eve launched in 03. PLEX was introduced in 08. Eve's economy had 5 years of solid growth all on its own with no influence from the real world. Right now ISK is worth far more than what real money can buy in an amount to make the game P2W. Although on a legal technicality, EVE is P2W. Granted, it would require a small government's annual budget to acquire enough in game currency to offset the current balance of power. It's just unrealistic to do so the game has not become P2W in reality. Had PLEX been implemented from launch, Back when no one had any ISK's value would have grown according to it's value in real money and the game's wealthiest players would be those who buy ISK, not those who currently sell it.
I am against selling gear or anything that allows one to by pass what is suppose to be the content of the game. If the game is design well no one should want to skip the content, BUT that is not what has happened since vanilla WoW days (at least). Everyone became end game crazy! The content became secondary or even an after thought in most MMOs. Now it is more about greed than about producing a deep content game, people find ways to blow through content at an alarming pace and then gripe about no end game!!! SO now developers are making filler content and charging for ways to progress through the crap faster... they get their $$$ and people get their "Gota get to End Game First" fix. One of the reasons I haven't played an MMO seriously in a long time.
But as far as sales, sure, so long as it's not a free to play game that's selling the stuff themselves..
EQ 1 accounts/equipment where worth tons because of the ridiculous amount of time and effort put into it.. Selling stuff for like 500 bucks after you put in a thousand hours++, didn't seem that ridiculous..
What is the motivation to go through the content? Get the best Gear that content has to offer. What if they stop making gear the unique motivation the gamer has to go through the content? Gear centric games will always have this issue. Basically either you grind the time consuming content or pay someone to do it for you. As $14,99 became a burden for non working gamer, sellig gear at the cash shop keep the developers employed, because nothing is for free.
Change the gear centrism of the games and you will find a solution for the debate above.
I feel as if I have seen this same debate with different people, 100 different times on a 100 different forums.
My 2 cents: What makes games fun is a sense of achievement. If you can buy stuff instead of earning it, you are taking away a large chunk of what makes games fun. Also the less you value your ingame achievements the less attached you are to your character and the game, and the more likely you are to just move on to the next big thing.
What i don't get, is people arguing about "time" .. If you have family, a child and a job to look after, WHY THE F**K ARE YOU PLAYING GAMES that requires commitment! Get a PS3/4 and play some arcade 5 minute craps if you really have to play games.
All i ever hear is "well i have a job and a family, so i don't have so much time...." Don't f**king PLAY! Use that time with your family, grow a pair and man-up, you lowlife piece of sh*t!
If i had a kid, i'd not miss a single minute of his/hers life because of a damned GAME!
Comments
and my "friend" has never been able to.
See what I did there?
Lets get back on topic and actually discuss real dangers in actual item shops.
Not a big fan of COMPANIES selling game changing gear. More than fine with costumes, pets, vehicles, invisible friends, anything that doesn't change your actual abilities or competitive level.
However, if I raid for 30 straight days and land a space dragon that fights with you and works like a mobile bank, I want to be able to drop that on the open market for $500 real money and pay my rent. More than happy to have rich, lazy types pay me for my time and effort. Besides, with most games today, there is little entertainment or joy anyway; let me profit off of the grind, and I will happily share 15% with the game company.
This
/signed
Website | Forum | Values | Join Us!
I like also the game Economic to add because it can help not to overprice or lower the gold price in the market. What i am thinking is not only pay 2 win is all about strategy. Both players and developer can earn money. I want the developer to add more pvp skills in the game so player knows this is not only pay2win. I want Free 2 play not only Pay2Win the game, this is all about strategy. Look like stock market
The future game is Swords Art Online....I want you to watch this anime. 
To expand on what Chris said about empowering lazy design I'll also chip in with a variation of the theme. One of my biggest concerns since the inception gear in item/cash shops is if/when developers begin to design content with the "intent" to be so un-fun, grindy, or just so dull that players rush to the store to acquire gear so they can avoid it. As a creative process no dev team I've ever encountered had the mental flexibility to both create engaging immersive content while simultaneously creating content made with intent to discourage play. Those are two distinctly different approaches to design. Ultimately imho, that path of design philosophy gives you a much shorter half-life before you can't milk it any more.
Thank you, SOE?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Buying anything other than the game or a sub is a deal breaker. Even fluff items. It seems that devs can't even handle "fluff items" correctly. I started to think fluff was ok, but it's not. You see what happens is you give a little they take a little more then a little more and so on..... The firm stance to preserve a pleasant gaming experience is buy to play or sub to play with no tolorance for cash shops or micro transactions of any sort. All they do is take away what could have been part of the game. Mmorpgs can take the high road and teach life lessons or the can continue this downward spiral much like casino's do. I'm afraid that with this upcoming culture that's ignorant as to what to expect, the days of an enjoyable mmorpg are coming to an end.
^This. I started playing Neverwinter, found the game pretty fun the first few mob kills, then as soon as I picked up one of the lock boxes that required you to pay to open (literally 10 min into my time in game), I immediatly got turned off.
Example:
I pay buy his item to win this game -----------------> Can i still win i don't have more skills and hard work?
Hahahaha i am the fastest clicker in this game ---------------> I think i have a chance to win this game by earning more rewards.
Hahahaha i am hardworking --------------------> i have more chance to win this game by selling gear, crafting, farming and trading.
funny is on that debate of your you lacked to say what the in game economy could feel, hey lets sell gear on our CS becasue we are sure people will pay, its like that old history of people buying over 10K grants to make a top upgraded weapon to play, several people will pay gladly for it, same people will pay a hooker if they lack the game to get woman, but lets keep this simple, if you sell gear in game how crafters will feel about it? for me would be far more interesting you ahve to raid for mats so a high grade crafter will make the gear but also not be like the top end like you need 20 items from X raid to craft the item but the drop is random and if it drop is 1 and the raid group is 24 people all roling for that item, that is the poor design in place devs need to try to make people play they game but they can't make it fun they make it a chore, so people complain about it so they way of thinking? let's sell it for RL money you pretty much tell than oh you make a crap job but i'm paying you a bonus for it, if I did a crap job on my work sure thing I would or lose it or heard about it till the end of world not getting a bonus for it, you also come down to when it will stop?
they will sell lvls too?
a real player know when a dude playing did really lvl his char or buy it from ebay, he simple put suck, don't know even the basic mechanics of the game to play his class right, so after a while, and most players don't group up later with then, so what happen? people start to cry because they can't do the whole content for lack of groups( sure it the game problem I can't play right after I bought this char from ebay) tehn devs cater then so it become easier so you don't need groups again, then after 2 months game die and people ask what they did wrong?
MMORPG genre lost quality over time to gather more people and the funny part is most of player base will bash anygame who try to bring something diferently and if it try to amke teh same old thing they will yell its a copy and we sure also have players who will let crap job pass as long they feel like they are fighting against the big men.
for chris point of view saying making a good joke takes time and money and they simple can't sack all games already done, I say we need to start, sooner we do sooner we will start to make worlds not lame games we lose interest after 6 months top and if keep thinking like that they can't do it because of what was already done we will never leave this hole this genre is and to each same copy and crap job they only get bigger
I absolutely love the idea behind this column. It's like a cross between debate team and good old fashioned internet trolling.
On topic - I prefer games where player skill > gear or character skill, so in that context, there's very little you could do to "pay 2 win".
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Yeah like that
Bingo.
To my thought. I think the conversation has moved far beyond cash shops and into real money trading. What companies are doing now is leaving cash shops cosmetic, but allow the purchase of gold then converting it to in game currency which can buy anything in game.
Selling max-stats Gear on Cash-Shop: bad idea.
Selling items to even more max out your gear (for example make it a sure +15 gear): WORST IDEA EVER. But thats what happens to STO or every other perfectworld game. I played one (Heroes of three Kingdoms) - they did not even patch any error for over 10 months!
Selling Skins for your gear on cash-shop: nice idea. If you have money and want your character to look shiny and glowy, you can either do some specific dungeon to get sth like dungeon medals to buy that skin ingame or buy it via cash shop for the ones who hv no time. But not gear with complete max-stats or uber-stats.
We play games , create characters and enter unreal worlds to become someone else and play the roles we can choose - outside real world.
Having an option like buying gear or anything , even customisation items or some sort of boosts for real money , "chains" you between game world and real world , the "chain" which doesnt allow you to fully break out of real world and simply make it TRUE new ROLE play experience.
For me it is problem with that feeling of "chains" that prevents me from using all the tools provided , understanding that real life have influenced my game experience... this is not what i would pay for.
...stop making games for players to pay
...start making games for players to play
I hate to see how every 3rd game asks you to pay for unlocking content , every 2nd provides you advantage for $ .
...If games need that much money to play it , soon people will have to spend more time working making money for games rather then playing them ))
IF a person does fork out real money to buy an item from the cash shop, who does it really hurt? How does it effect YOU if he buys an item? How does it effect YOUR game play if he buys an item? The ONLY person that it should effect is the person purchasing the item from the cash shop.
In a way this is like the Abortion debate that keeps going on and on and on. The ONLY person that SHOULD have a say in the matter is the person that is having the Abortion and everyone else can stuff their opinions since it is not their body that is having the procedure done to it.
Ratero.
Eve's system works but it's not repeatable. Eve launched in 03. PLEX was introduced in 08. Eve's economy had 5 years of solid growth all on its own with no influence from the real world. Right now ISK is worth far more than what real money can buy in an amount to make the game P2W. Although on a legal technicality, EVE is P2W. Granted, it would require a small government's annual budget to acquire enough in game currency to offset the current balance of power. It's just unrealistic to do so the game has not become P2W in reality. Had PLEX been implemented from launch, Back when no one had any ISK's value would have grown according to it's value in real money and the game's wealthiest players would be those who buy ISK, not those who currently sell it.
A:I agree!
b:No...I agree!!
A:I agree that you agree!!!
Yeah....
But as far as sales, sure, so long as it's not a free to play game that's selling the stuff themselves..
EQ 1 accounts/equipment where worth tons because of the ridiculous amount of time and effort put into it.. Selling stuff for like 500 bucks after you put in a thousand hours++, didn't seem that ridiculous..
What is the motivation to go through the content? Get the best Gear that content has to offer. What if they stop making gear the unique motivation the gamer has to go through the content? Gear centric games will always have this issue. Basically either you grind the time consuming content or pay someone to do it for you. As $14,99 became a burden for non working gamer, sellig gear at the cash shop keep the developers employed, because nothing is for free.
Change the gear centrism of the games and you will find a solution for the debate above.
I feel as if I have seen this same debate with different people, 100 different times on a 100 different forums.
My 2 cents: What makes games fun is a sense of achievement. If you can buy stuff instead of earning it, you are taking away a large chunk of what makes games fun. Also the less you value your ingame achievements the less attached you are to your character and the game, and the more likely you are to just move on to the next big thing.
What i don't get, is people arguing about "time" .. If you have family, a child and a job to look after, WHY THE F**K ARE YOU PLAYING GAMES that requires commitment! Get a PS3/4 and play some arcade 5 minute craps if you really have to play games.
All i ever hear is "well i have a job and a family, so i don't have so much time...." Don't f**king PLAY! Use that time with your family, grow a pair and man-up, you lowlife piece of sh*t!