My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.
I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.
Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.
Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.
I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.
Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol
The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.
But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.
No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.
See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in.
Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.
My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.
I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.
Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.
Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.
I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.
Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol
The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.
But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.
No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.
See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in.
Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.
What I notice is that you seem to assume several reasons of why people dislike trinity, or rather grew tired of it, based on your own beliefs of what those people must be.
GW2 proved nothing, there are still over 2.5 million people logging into that game every week. You'll have to find better.
Can you please verify those numbers?
I have actually tried to look myself, nothing specific was released on that number. Only a thread with a link to a Chinese website that made that claim, but it was only for the 1st 4 months after release and was also proven to be misinformation and was actually taken down.
Whatever the active logins per week is, I don't really care. I'm not here to debate the size of GW2's playerbase. I played the game, I know what it is, I know people log in every day. I know it's not a ghost town. But You still have to wait for dungeons. Anet thought, they didn't need a group finder. They were wrong.
My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.
I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.
Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.
Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.
I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.
Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol
The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.
But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.
No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.
See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in.
Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.
As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played?
You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet.
AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.
"Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol"
Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.
It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best.
See, I even raised a second one for you this time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played? Really? What part of your pet acting as the taunting tank didn't you understand.. And I'm sure you healed our pet too.. I played a hunter, and it is still fresh in my mind what your options are.. I bet you went Beast on your spec which is the MOST "tank/heal" spec you can do.. You could of stored your pet and went survival ,, now there is a challenge
You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet. Why do you pick range classes.. I have news for you, but RANGE classes only work if someone else has the attention of the mob.. HENCE trinity.. How well do you think range dps does with no tank, no movement skills? He gets OWNED is what happens..
AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.
"Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol"
Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.
It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best.
See, I even raised a second one for you this time.
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
I find it very hard to believe that a mob that could wipe a trinity group in one hit wouldn't do the same to any other type of group. This has nothing to do with mob AI and everything to do with making group dynamics a thing of the past.
Bren
SO you're saying GW2 dungeons are solo-able? No?
Well what else could you be saying? How does a change in Mob behavior or play mechanics take away hard group related content? Even with trinity, games can be highly solo-able. Your correlation is way off.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
Holy cow.
It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW. You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet?
And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?
I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.
Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.
So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.
Do you read jean? Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get.. I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities.. Keep up.. Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life.. It isnt' that hard..
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
Holy cow.
It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW. You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet?
And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?
I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.
KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH.. Have a great day
I actually wonder if he even ever played WoW, Lokto... since pets definitely can't taunt players and are merely a bit more than "walking DOTs" in that game, with a few CC abilities which wouldn't be different if given to the character, and most of the times would be more efficient if given to the character.
anytime jean you want to tell us mechanicallyh HOW range classes work without the trinity.. we are all ears
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.
Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.
So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.
Do you read jean? Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get.. I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities.. Keep up.. Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life.. It isnt' that hard..
So you basically contradict yourself... nice one.
I'm still waiting for your theories about tanking ranged characters.
And nothing in your nonsense says ranged classes without trinity are not working. You're basically biting your own ankles in your posts.
WTF? hahaha the only one here contradicting anything is Lok telling us he loves RANGE class, but hate trinity.. lmao
Now that is a good trick.. especially with smart AI's..
My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.
I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.
Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.
Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.
I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.
Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol
The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.
But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.
No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.
See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in.
Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.
What I notice is that you seem to assume several reasons of why people dislike trinity, or rather grew tired of it, based on your own beliefs of what those people must be.
GW2 proved nothing, there are still over 2.5 million people logging into that game every week. You'll have to find better.
That isn't verified. As a matter of fact there have been two people who speak chinese who say that it isn't what Google translated it to be. Those numbers aren't even posted anymore on that site. They have been replaced with Youtube and Facebook hits.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
I don't have any problem with it. I think, in general, it helps people to play the role they want and contributes to strategy. While I'm sure there are some people who love to play every roll I don't think that would be the majority of people. Also combat from what I've seen in combat systems without the trinity is usually much more chaotic with minimal strategy. In general this is one of the examples I see of people pushing for change or knocking games that still use a mechanic that does not need to be changed in the first place and that works.
As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played?
You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet.
AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.
"Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol"
Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.
It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best.
See, I even raised a second one for you this time.
Ok aside from some ad-hom stuff and some back pedaling, your post makes almost no sense. So, getting rid of the ad-hom stuff from your post....The stuff about my posting history and my personal assumptions, I only see two things.
1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.
the 2nd is you trying to cleverly rephrase what I said to use it in your argument. You conveniently omitted the part where I said
"Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better."
1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.
Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.
Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets. If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It has to do with making MMOs even more solo friendly. If there is no interdependence between classes than there is no need to group at all except for raiding. This has taken MMOs even further down the road to single player games.
Bren
Agree.
It seems all game developers want these days is to make easy mode single player games and forget the group mechanic.
Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.
The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.
For the sake of discussion please provide me with a link where a developer actually has said this and not just your opinion.
1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.
Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.
Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets. If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.
I have news for you.. but using CC and movement skills are part of ROLE classes.. Rather it be tanking, cc or kiting.. All you are doing is switching out one role for another.. KITING / snaring is the new tanking.. Been there, done that.. Sorry, but your logic fails..
Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.
The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.
For the sake of discussion please provide me with a link where a developer actually has said this and not just your opinion.
Thank you.:)
While the particular reasons he gives are a bit off the mark, his overall point - that it was to overcome limitations in game mechanics - is spot on. A look back at its origins, from one of the developers that created the earlier systems that EQ is derived from, can be found here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
On a very related note, here's a similar thread on the topic with some great contributions from quite a few people. It also shows how conversation here takes a different course when personal stake in a particular title is removed from the equation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.
Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.
Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets. If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.
I didn't play AC, I played Anarchy online. There are pet classes where the pets don't tank. I know it can be done. And done well. CoH and CoV also had that. I'm not questioning that. But you have to admit, posting against the trinity saying you enjoyed the Hunter is going to raise eyebrows regardless of how you explain it. And in my 1st post, that was my only comment. I know you were tying to focus on the non pet aspects, But to me, I don't see it. You described it as an Archer with a pet. When it's not. If that was a misunderstanding, then I'll apologize. Clearly we were drawn to very different aspects of the class. I liked the pet.
The holy trinity of tank, healer and dps isn't a bad thing but the current way the holy trinity works it is.
If you want a real holy trinity, remove threat from tanks but make them tanky and use CC (stuns, chill,fear,slow etc), make healers do more things than healing and support their team and let call them support instead. The dps role is obvious, you damage your enemies but should have a few ways to buff allies damage or weaken enemies.
You can already play like this in GW2 but for most parts of the game you can go full dps and run through content. The only content you can't go full dps is Fractals of The Mists and sometimes PvP. Here is where the developer have done something wrong with the content, by only making one build the most useful and effective in the majority of the game content.
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob.. Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
Holy cow.
It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW. You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet?
And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?
I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.
KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH.. Have a great day
Let me put some personal perspective on this. Like Loktofeit I usually play hunter/ranger characters, and straight trinity gameplay just sends me to sleep.
In SWG I had a rifle-based Master Ranger/Creature Handler. I had two bioengineered Narglatches, one specced to tank, the other as a fast moving off-tank. I also had a droid that was built to harvest resources from my kills and drop medkits on the Narglatches whenever necessary. It was a huge amount of fun and the gameplay offered a decent level of in-the-moment challenge.
Now you may say that this set-up makes it hypocritcal of me to say bad things about the trinity, given that I had a full trinity setup all of my own. But think about it - if one player can play the whole trinity himself, what does that say about the trinity? It's not difficult, it's not challenging and in terms of what a player is capable of it's not even necessary.
The only reason that the trinity is needed is because most MMOs don't let players do it all themselves. Setting your character to assist the tank and then spamming the same handful of attacks to maximise damage while keeping aggro low isn't fun. It isn't exciting and it certainly isn't challenging. It's barely even teamwork. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the trinity is some of the most dumbed-down gameplay you'll find in any genre of videogames. WOW's meter add-on gameplay has been proving this for years.
In DAOC I played an Albion Scout (no pet) and for a few months I teamed with another Scout player. We died a lot to start with but over that time we worked out tactics that were every bit as effective (though not as efficient time-wise) as a standard trinity group. It was incredibly challenging reaching that point, and even at our peak it could all go horribly wrong (we even worked out contingencies for when one of us missed two shots on the trot, which was when things would fail without them), but it took a hell of a lot of discipline and moment-to-moment observation of mobs and each other to pull it off.
Since WOW it's been rare that different classes have been able to work out dependencies between themselves like this; these days it's just bog standard, trinity faceroll rubbish or, if you're "lucky", equally rubbish zerging. The massive irony is that 10 or 15 years ago or whatever it was, the trinity was emergent gameplay but todays games are designed around it. It is completely back to front. Given how big MMOs are and how long they are supposed to keep their players interested, they absolutely need to provide opportunities for players to find their own ways of meeting the games' challenges, and that means a more dynamic AI and more flexibly designed classes that can and must cooperate in many different ways to beat it.
Designing games around the trinity as the only way to succeed is proving to be a dead-end, as is throwing away the trinity altogether along with all other potential interdependencies. This should be self-evident by now.
If MMOs are to survive the decline they're in, their designers really, really need to start thinking outside the box. And so do their players.
Originally posted by botrytis Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.
Um... No, it's called a personal opinion.
I find it very hard to believe that a mob that could wipe a trinity group in one hit wouldn't do the same to any other type of group. This has nothing to do with mob AI and everything to do with making group dynamics a thing of the past.
Bren
Yeah because they took out the trinity removed all group content and allowed for no interaction between classes/roles.... cant believe im agreeing with boytrytis here lol
Comments
No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.
See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in.
Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.
Can you please verify those numbers?
I have actually tried to look myself, nothing specific was released on that number. Only a thread with a link to a Chinese website that made that claim, but it was only for the 1st 4 months after release and was also proven to be misinformation and was actually taken down.
Whatever the active logins per week is, I don't really care. I'm not here to debate the size of GW2's playerbase. I played the game, I know what it is, I know people log in every day. I know it's not a ghost town. But You still have to wait for dungeons. Anet thought, they didn't need a group finder. They were wrong.
I think it was because people hated being rejected from groups because they didn't fit a role.
As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played?
You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet.
AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.
"Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity.. POT meet KETTTLE..lol"
Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.
It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best.
See, I even raised a second one for you this time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..
Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills? Let me know how that works out
SO you're saying GW2 dungeons are solo-able? No?
Well what else could you be saying? How does a change in Mob behavior or play mechanics take away hard group related content? Even with trinity, games can be highly solo-able. Your correlation is way off.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Holy cow.
It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW. You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet?
And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?
I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Do you read jean? Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get.. I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities.. Keep up.. Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life.. It isnt' that hard..
KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH.. Have a great day
anytime jean you want to tell us mechanicallyh HOW range classes work without the trinity.. we are all ears
WTF? hahaha the only one here contradicting anything is Lok telling us he loves RANGE class, but hate trinity.. lmao
Now that is a good trick.. especially with smart AI's..
That isn't verified. As a matter of fact there have been two people who speak chinese who say that it isn't what Google translated it to be. Those numbers aren't even posted anymore on that site. They have been replaced with Youtube and Facebook hits.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Ok aside from some ad-hom stuff and some back pedaling, your post makes almost no sense. So, getting rid of the ad-hom stuff from your post....The stuff about my posting history and my personal assumptions, I only see two things.
1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.
the 2nd is you trying to cleverly rephrase what I said to use it in your argument. You conveniently omitted the part where I said
"Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better."
I believe the OP deserves a definitive answer to his question so...
Baby Raptor Jesus decided
Take it up with him.
Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.
Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets. If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agree.
It seems all game developers want these days is to make easy mode single player games and forget the group mechanic.
For the sake of discussion please provide me with a link where a developer actually has said this and not just your opinion.
Thank you.:)
I have news for you.. but using CC and movement skills are part of ROLE classes.. Rather it be tanking, cc or kiting.. All you are doing is switching out one role for another.. KITING / snaring is the new tanking.. Been there, done that.. Sorry, but your logic fails..
While the particular reasons he gives are a bit off the mark, his overall point - that it was to overcome limitations in game mechanics - is spot on. A look back at its origins, from one of the developers that created the earlier systems that EQ is derived from, can be found here.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
On a very related note, here's a similar thread on the topic with some great contributions from quite a few people. It also shows how conversation here takes a different course when personal stake in a particular title is removed from the equation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't play AC, I played Anarchy online. There are pet classes where the pets don't tank. I know it can be done. And done well. CoH and CoV also had that. I'm not questioning that. But you have to admit, posting against the trinity saying you enjoyed the Hunter is going to raise eyebrows regardless of how you explain it. And in my 1st post, that was my only comment. I know you were tying to focus on the non pet aspects, But to me, I don't see it. You described it as an Archer with a pet. When it's not. If that was a misunderstanding, then I'll apologize. Clearly we were drawn to very different aspects of the class. I liked the pet.
The holy trinity of tank, healer and dps isn't a bad thing but the current way the holy trinity works it is.
If you want a real holy trinity, remove threat from tanks but make them tanky and use CC (stuns, chill,fear,slow etc), make healers do more things than healing and support their team and let call them support instead. The dps role is obvious, you damage your enemies but should have a few ways to buff allies damage or weaken enemies.
You can already play like this in GW2 but for most parts of the game you can go full dps and run through content. The only content you can't go full dps is Fractals of The Mists and sometimes PvP. Here is where the developer have done something wrong with the content, by only making one build the most useful and effective in the majority of the game content.
Let me put some personal perspective on this. Like Loktofeit I usually play hunter/ranger characters, and straight trinity gameplay just sends me to sleep.
In SWG I had a rifle-based Master Ranger/Creature Handler. I had two bioengineered Narglatches, one specced to tank, the other as a fast moving off-tank. I also had a droid that was built to harvest resources from my kills and drop medkits on the Narglatches whenever necessary. It was a huge amount of fun and the gameplay offered a decent level of in-the-moment challenge.
Now you may say that this set-up makes it hypocritcal of me to say bad things about the trinity, given that I had a full trinity setup all of my own. But think about it - if one player can play the whole trinity himself, what does that say about the trinity? It's not difficult, it's not challenging and in terms of what a player is capable of it's not even necessary.
The only reason that the trinity is needed is because most MMOs don't let players do it all themselves. Setting your character to assist the tank and then spamming the same handful of attacks to maximise damage while keeping aggro low isn't fun. It isn't exciting and it certainly isn't challenging. It's barely even teamwork. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the trinity is some of the most dumbed-down gameplay you'll find in any genre of videogames. WOW's meter add-on gameplay has been proving this for years.
In DAOC I played an Albion Scout (no pet) and for a few months I teamed with another Scout player. We died a lot to start with but over that time we worked out tactics that were every bit as effective (though not as efficient time-wise) as a standard trinity group. It was incredibly challenging reaching that point, and even at our peak it could all go horribly wrong (we even worked out contingencies for when one of us missed two shots on the trot, which was when things would fail without them), but it took a hell of a lot of discipline and moment-to-moment observation of mobs and each other to pull it off.
Since WOW it's been rare that different classes have been able to work out dependencies between themselves like this; these days it's just bog standard, trinity faceroll rubbish or, if you're "lucky", equally rubbish zerging. The massive irony is that 10 or 15 years ago or whatever it was, the trinity was emergent gameplay but todays games are designed around it. It is completely back to front. Given how big MMOs are and how long they are supposed to keep their players interested, they absolutely need to provide opportunities for players to find their own ways of meeting the games' challenges, and that means a more dynamic AI and more flexibly designed classes that can and must cooperate in many different ways to beat it.
Designing games around the trinity as the only way to succeed is proving to be a dead-end, as is throwing away the trinity altogether along with all other potential interdependencies. This should be self-evident by now.
If MMOs are to survive the decline they're in, their designers really, really need to start thinking outside the box. And so do their players.
Um... No, it's called a personal opinion.
I find it very hard to believe that a mob that could wipe a trinity group in one hit wouldn't do the same to any other type of group. This has nothing to do with mob AI and everything to do with making group dynamics a thing of the past.
Bren
Yeah because they took out the trinity removed all group content and allowed for no interaction between classes/roles.... cant believe im agreeing with boytrytis here lolSteam: Neph