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MMO without Levels, would it work??
Lucioon
Member UncommonPosts: 819
Level Caps have always been the END everyone tries to get to in MMORPG, But what if we replace Levels with Ranks.
Ranks is like Levels but without an official End, and the Higher the rank you are, the more responsibilities you have, therefor you don't have to move up the ranks if you don't want to.
What if , we can also have Hours, days, Months played in game time as our Levels as well.
Different Class Ranks, Veterans , Masters...etc
So you could be Corpal for the whole game, but you are Master Corpal ....etc
PS: Not very good with Military ranks so its just for examples
Qualifications for each rank that suits your playstyle, so when people see you running around they know the kind of player you are.
In Game Responsibilities, Leaders, Raid Leaders, Tanks , Healers, DPS, Scouts....etc Like Field Medic , Heavy .....
Something where you can play for days and months and will never feel like you are at an End of a Game, but instead, you are increasing your skills and being recognized for your role in the MMO.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Comments
EQ2 fan sites
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
"can work" does not equate being preferred by most players. Perma-death can "work" too but the demand is just not there.
And even UO has skill levels. You have to have something to show progression. And why re-invent something when you already have something (level) that works so well?
Because it not working so well in MMORPG currently, it works well in SRPG . MMORPG should have no END, yet everyone nowadays get into a New MMO just to get to the Endgame.
Why is there even an Endgame in MMORPG? Isn't it suppose to be an Persistent Online Gaming world, to make something Persistent shouldn't it continue without End.
That is why I was exploring the possibility of eliminating the Levels in MMORPG designs, because without Levels there will be no END to reach.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I played one for a while years ago. Stopped playing to play another title.
Returned last year and it had a level system. Game no longer was fun (skill training mattered then) as the game resorted to X level = X gear like WoW. Played it for a week, and after seeing all the other WoW like changes, won't be going back.
There's WoW. I don't need WoW itself in another game. Elements nice, but not the gear system complete with even the gear coloring system (love EQII for that, they don't have purples). Please, for the love of MMORPGs don't copy WoW so completely down to it's underwear!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Blizzard said, "no" to that idea (big no, not a maybe no). Even hardcore MUDs, the permadeath option is rare. It defeats character development, which is a staple for RPGs.
If folks truly looked at it, it doesn't fit in a MMORPG, as the goal is to get to the highest level. If folks keep dying at level 10 or 20, who's going to be at level 90 to do end-game stuff? If folks aren't doing end-game stuff, how will a company sell another expansion when folks have no need to even finish an expansion? It's self-defeating.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
who decide MMORPG should have no end?
I play MMORPG to "finish" its content and move onto the next game.
In fact, what you say "everyone nowadays get into a New MMO just to get to the Endgame" shows that the notion "MMORPG should have no end" is just what you prefer, but not shared by the masses.
If a game has any sort of progression at all it has levels. Very easily seen with vertical progression, but still their in horizontal progression (I have 10 skills you have 1, I am more powerful/versatile...).
All you've done is replace traditional levels with rank levels and added an option to not progress which many games these days have.
Skills, ranks, class, tiered gear... they are all levels. Just different kinds.
So an MMO without levels, yes it could work. An MMORPG? No. Progression is a defining character of rpg.
No levels does not equal no progression.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression. GW2 is finding this out, since once players reach level 80, they have no where else to go... their progression has halted, and all they have left is fluff, and pvp (which could be very engaging, but still no progress).
EQNext has no level, but has tons of progression, possible through the use of what they call "tiers". Tiers are not levels, since you can't just level it up through experience. Instead, you get points, that translate into skill points, which you can apply to any of the classes you have opened up. Stronger skills have more prior skill (in the same class) requirements, and the combination of these skills across different classes makes you a higher "tier". You don't physically see a "Tier 2 Warrior" next to your character, but you will be able to now take on much higher (considered tier 2) content, which drops better gear, and gives you more skill points, until you get to the next tier, and so on (5 tiers being the current maximum).
This is not the same as levels, since you can equip yourself with the highest level skills from among the different jobs you have, and these can work so horribly together, that you could essentially still be considered tier 1, cause that is the only type of content you could possibly take on. Consider "tier" as quality... games have "grey - White - Green - Blue - Yellow - Red - Purple - Orange" to signify how strong the item is... same concept as tier, you start out yourself being "grey" quality, and with knowledge, gear and proper skill placement, you can be of purple, or Orange quality as you and your friends take on the Dragons and the Gods.
If it has skills, that is just another type of level.
If it has tiered gear, that is just another type of level.
GW2 therefore has levels. EQnext therefore has levels. Perhaps not class levels, or character levels or levels where everything increases, but it still has levels.
Progression of any kind = levels.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson
instant gratification
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Odd. I thought they had to participate to get that participation trophy.
Eve, UO, SWG had skill levels.
The original SWG had this. If it had come out ten years later without all the launch problems and glitches it would be hailed as a break through and the greatest MMO of all time.
Here's to irony!
Nexus TK, Dark Ages, Shattered Galaxy. Funny how they were all Nexon games.
Anyways, for Nexus TK and Dark Ages, the game starts once you hit level 99 which takes a few days. The grind for exp to better your stats and the grind for godly equipment. The only problem with those 2 games after 10+ years of release and barely no more updates done to them, it's that the community is separated into "cliques", so unless you got real life friends to play with, good luck finding a hunting party.
In the case of Shattered Galaxy, it had a crap load of potential but Nexon abandoned it. You level your commander and reincarnate back to level 1 but with better stats in the long run. But the game is dead with almost non existent updates, a real shame though, Shattered Galaxy was truly one of a kind and End Of Nations was suppose to be like Shattered Galaxy, until Petroglyph got kicked out and End of Nations is now turned into a monstrosity.
MMO without levels can work, but will Devs ever dare to try something new? I think not since copying/pasting WoW is still pretty hot. Sad story.
Well this type of playstyle usually enters into the realm of sandboxes. Sandboxes usually incorporate a form of skills to level or some kind of custom class deal. Either that or it's a crafting MMO. But sandboxes nowadays can't be handled by the current community anymore. Everyone asks for a quicker immediate "end" to their MMORPG. They look for an "end". It's kind of ridiculous, but unfortunately true, you are looking from the perspective of old mmo's but new-era mmo's are just console games with a big server. I hope soon that more games will take up this style.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Wrong, progression is NOT equal to levels. Progression means getting better over time. Some games did this through levels, others are doing it through other means.
GW2 has levels. You level from 1 to 80 and then stop. Each level gives you additional power via stats.
In EQ2, you could be level 80, and that would mean you can do any of the the content up to that level, if you tried to fight anything 5 levels higher than you, you would get an artificial penalty of a 50% reduction in the amount of damage you give, and 50% increase to the amount of damage you take. This would increase all the way up to 90%+ for things 10 levels or more higher. That is what levels do. It is not based on your inate skills or abilities, but more on a random number assigned to you based on how many things you have done in game.
Any time you get better, or get more you are at a higher or different level than you were before.
Getting better over time is levels.
You are talking about character or class levels.
Skills are still levels
Gear is still levels
Progression is getting better over time.
Just as you said progression is getting better. Any time you get better, or get more you are at a higher or different level than you were before.
If the game has any way to incease your stats, or increase your abilities either through more power or more abilities you are at a greater level than you were before.
In your example, you are saying that regardless of what Progression is level to you, but I meant Numerical Level that ends , like Level 1 to level 80
What I am really asking is that what is keeping those level 80 player around once they reach it.
Why can't the game start at Level 80 and stays there.
Thats is what I am proposing
In your example, once a character reaches level 80 , they are no longer progressing, therefore there is no reason for them to keep on playing. But people still play, they take on raids and they fight mobs, but there is no increase in their skills or increase in their levels. But they still play
So How come no one has come up with the game that starts at level 80 and still have meaningful progression, won't that be what everyone wants.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Nothing. Sooner or later, content ends. You can let them level forever, but it will just be a number (and your power scale with it) without any new interesting stuff.
And games get boring if you play it long enough anyway. There is not need to keep players around forever.
Finish the game and move on.
If SoE keeps to the course, EQNext will effectively be what you are asking. Sure you can progress in Tiers in each class you pick up, but there is no "levels".
Guild Wars 2 could have, and probably should have adopted a leveless system. Even at level 80 you still earn XPs, but instead of increasing in level you simply earn another Skill Point. Considering how stats are mostly allocated to gear, ANet would have had a perfect opportunity to do away with your typical leveling system.
A leveless MMO can work, imo, it's just that we've been so indoctrinated into the "leveling" system, it's hard to break out of the mindset. Levels make it easy to determine relative power, make it easy to gate content, make it easy to deliver relative increases of power, and create a general sense of progression. If you look at it from a developers view, levels make delivering content a lot easier as well.
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure that the general audience could wrap their heads around a leveless system. There would be an easy way for folks to judge their own progress vs. others around them, they also wouldn't be able to gauge whether they were ready to tackle certain types of content. EQNext might just be the testing grounds to see how well a leveless system works that's aiming for a general audience.
Tell that to the folks who have played Asheron's Call since 1999. Yes, you reach a max level of 256, but you still earn xps to further advance your character. Considering that AC probably has the best random loot system in any mmo, in my opinion, there is still plenty of reason for elder characters to play and advance their character's relative power.
There's still a number of players who have played WoW, FFXI, EQ1/2, etc, from the release and still play. For them, there is now option to "finish the game and move on", because they still enjoy the game. If a mmo were to have no levels, but still allowed characters to progress, you'd only enable more long term play...which afterall is what developers really want. Lifetime players.
what you guys are not understanding is the term level. no matter if you don't have a numerical number to evaluate a persons level, that game will still have levels. just like what the poster a couple posts above me was explaining. the process of progressing your character, getting stronger through practicing skills and those skills getting stronger or better gear, what have you, you're at a higher level than you were previously.
take dragon ball z. goku was leveling up all the damn time in that show.
take bruce lee. bruce lee kept leveling up through life with diligent training and pushing himself to the extreme limits(kinda like goku lol)
you don't have to have a congratulations you have reached level 1...congratulations you have reached level 80 message to have a level system. Even if your skills didn't show a progress bar and just the more you used them the stronger they got, its still being leveled up. The only difference is the level system has been cloaked. That's all.
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