It will depend on how well the classes are made. In GW2 most of the classes are generic spam. Every abiliity has damage tagged onto it so people just spam throughntheir abilities. Now if a fear ability was say channeled and broke on damage and did no damage itself... suddenly more tactics are required. If I could opt to knock a unit down but to hold them down for a second did minimal damage on my behalf... again more thought required on when I use something. None of GW2 skills ask these questions of the player. Add in the possibility of chain skills and dodges, blocks and parries and the combat could be complex with only 8 skills. Whether it is or not is another story.
Don't forget the D-pad, which could be used to shuffle weapons and utility skills, and still leave 2 buttons to spare.
in summary
4+4 weapon skills and 4+4 utility skills=16 usable skills. The required improvement needed, but not implemented, for GW2 style action combat..
Where are you getting this 4+4 stuff? Its 4 and 4 = 8. There might be clicky abilities from certain items like those supposed glider boots but otherwise its 4 weapon and 4 class abilities.
Originally posted by solarbear88 It will depend on how well the classes are made. In GW2 most of the classes are generic spam. Every abiliity has damage tagged onto it so people just spam throughntheir abilities. Now if a fear ability was say channeled and broke on damage and did no damage itself... suddenly more tactics are required. If I could opt to knock a unit down but to hold them down for a second did minimal damage on my behalf... again more thought required on when I use something. None of GW2 skills ask these questions of the player. Add in the possibility of chain skills and dodges, blocks and parries and the combat could be complex with only 8 skills. Whether it is or not is another story.
Sorry but by what you're saying your GW2 skills are at the "scrub" level. Yeah you can just "spam" your abilities and this is actually quite common in the new bloodlust areas. I enjoy trashing these backpedalers.
Most DOTA heroes of four abilities...FOUR. And DOTA is regarded to be one of the most hardcore, tactically involved games out there.
The amount of abilities on your action bar has basically nothing to do with the tactical depth and fun factor of the combat. I mean, look at Rift...that game has TONS of abilities on your action bar, but combat boils down to heavy macro use and/or pressing the same sequence over and over.
Most DOTA heroes of four abilities...FOUR. And DOTA is regarded to be one of the most hardcore, tactically involved games out there.
The amount of abilities on your action bar has basically nothing to do with the tactical depth and fun factor of the combat. I mean, look at Rift...that game has TONS of abilities on your action bar, but combat boils down to heavy macro use and/or pressing the same sequence over and over.
I dont know why people say this. MOBA's are the most easiest games to get into and be good at. Thats why so many people play em. Blizzard learned long ago the easier your game is the more people play. The Average gamer isnt some skilled, quick thinking, coordinated person. That is why MOBA type games do better than say RTS this is why Blizzards RTS games and command and conquer did better than the complex ones that were coming out back then (which now you never see anymore).
The only think difficult about MOBA games is finding the fastest way to lvl. Cheap characters and cheap ways to out lvl your competition win. And also item builds to some degree but most figure out the op items pretty quick and there very lil variance on how to build your character (usually just two ways).
Again MOBA games are easy mode. That is why they are played so much. Its a dumb down version of an RTS with dumb down RPG elements. Started with a star craft map but became big with a Warcraft 3 MOD. Warcraft 3 being the must dumb down RTS ever, even dumber than its predecessor Warcraft 1 and 2. And thats why it sold more.
Simple, quick to get into and made for the lowest denominator of player skill out sells Complex, hard to master and strategic games.
Not going to quote people as , well there are lots of you , using the it's a console game so the controller can't handle more than 8 or 16 abilities. Well news just in , well in nearly 2 years ago. BadOrb uses 40 , yes that's 40 , abilities on his 360 controller playing SWTOR. So yeah I don't believe the devs have lied they really want you to focus what's going on on screen rather than stare at hotbars. mind you I don't stare at my hotbars in SWTOR unless I'm healing a manic tank .
Also 8 skills isn't too bad and action combat is great PSO and PSU says so , or said so as they are now closed down.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Don't forget the D-pad, which could be used to shuffle weapons and utility skills, and still leave 2 buttons to spare.
in summary
4+4 weapon skills and 4+4 utility skills=16 usable skills. The required improvement needed, but not implemented, for GW2 style action combat..
Where are you getting this 4+4 stuff? Its 4 and 4 = 8. There might be clicky abilities from certain items like those supposed glider boots but otherwise its 4 weapon and 4 class abilities.
You have 4 weapon abilities and the ability to change to an alternate weapon. Thus 4 + 4
on the utility side you have 4 abilities and hopefully youll be able to do the same thing and activate a second bank of 4 abilities.
thus 4+4 and 4+4=16. The limitation of course that you can only use 8 at a time, but will have 16 available on the fly and potentially hundreds out of combat.
The noble intention behind this everquestNext is giving players freedom of choice. I strongly believe that allowing a couple more buttons on the action bar would raise that feeling of freedom throughout combat situations. It is simple mathematics. The more choice, the more freedom. Especially since we can collect so many skills...
Most DOTA heroes of four abilities...FOUR. And DOTA is regarded to be one of the most hardcore, tactically involved games out there.
The amount of abilities on your action bar has basically nothing to do with the tactical depth and fun factor of the combat. I mean, look at Rift...that game has TONS of abilities on your action bar, but combat boils down to heavy macro use and/or pressing the same sequence over and over.
I dont know why people say this. MOBA's are the most easiest games to get into and be good at. Thats why so many people play em. Blizzard learned long ago the easier your game is the more people play. The Average gamer isnt some skilled, quick thinking, coordinated person. That is why MOBA type games do better than say RTS this is why Blizzards RTS games and command and conquer did better than the complex ones that were coming out back then (which now you never see anymore).
The only think difficult about MOBA games is finding the fastest way to lvl. Cheap characters and cheap ways to out lvl your competition win. And also item builds to some degree but most figure out the op items pretty quick and there very lil variance on how to build your character (usually just two ways).
Again MOBA games are easy mode. That is why they are played so much. Its a dumb down version of an RTS with dumb down RPG elements. Started with a star craft map but became big with a Warcraft 3 MOD. Warcraft 3 being the must dumb down RTS ever, even dumber than its predecessor Warcraft 1 and 2. And thats why it sold more.
Simple, quick to get into and made for the lowest denominator of player skill out sells Complex, hard to master and strategic games.
:O
Really? MOBA's are the easiest games to get into and be good at? Are you seriously saying that?
To just BEGIN to be decent at DOTA 2 you have to not only learn over 100 characters and all of their abilities. You also have to learn how they all interact with each other. For example, lifestealer's rage gives him partial magic immunity...do you know the abilities that it does NOT protect you from? If you don't, then you are going to be in big trouble going against a Beastmaster or Enigma. I've been playing DOTA 2 for months now and I'm still just basically an intermediate player.
Also, are you honestly saying that WC3 is more "dumbed down" than WC1? Did you play WC1? WC1 had basically ONE FACTION that was just skinned differently and had very few differences. WC3 had four factions that each had very difficult and unique play styles. Which game sounds more complex??
There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle. This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart.
Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?
In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.
Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.
Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.
You defeat yourself again, as there are no PC only shooters anymore. All shooters are mutliplatform.
And as they sell the most copies on XBOX360 and PS3... completely dwarfing PC sales these days....shooters are being developed as console game, then ported to PC.
PC only shooters released in the last 12 months (or so):
Chivalry (granted it's not really a shooter, but it's combat is still deeper than most MMOs)
ARMA III
Red Orchestra 2 (and Rising Storm)
Warface
Metro 2033 (and Last Light)
Planetside 2
Shootmania Storm
Rise of the Triad
You were saying?
HE was saying that devs. are making most their money on consoles when it comes to fps games. And that they are thinking, how will this work on a console remote not how will it work on a keyboard.
PC only shooters released in the last 12 months (or so):
Chivalry (granted it's not really a shooter, but it's combat is still deeper than most MMOs)
ARMA III
Red Orchestra 2 (and Rising Storm)
Warface
Metro 2033 (and Last Light)
Planetside 2
Shootmania Storm
Rise of the Triad
You were saying?
HE was saying that devs. are making their money on consoles when it comes to fps game. And that they are thinking how will this work on a console remote not a keyboard.
Which is pretty much true.
I'm going to be honest...I think that this "console conspiracy" argument has nothing to do with their decision for the number of abilities. I am playing FFXIV right now on my PC, but it is out for PS3 as well and I'm using the gamepad controls. It has lots of abilities...like 27 for a max level character, more for pet classes, and yet it works fine on a controller.
It's really not that hard...when you hold down RB, your four buttons and four D-pad directions do certain things. When you hold down LB and press them, they do different things. And you can page through different abilities using RT and LT. It's also tab target combat (well not tab with the gamepad), and that works find as well.
So if FFXIV is a game actually out on a console that has tons of abilities, and it works fine. Then I fail to see how this "console conspiracy" argument holds any water.
Here is an example of the FFXIV gamepad controls...
The reason they have less abilities is so they can have MORE builds. Which gives the game MORE variety.
To illustrate this, imagine you have 4 scrabble pieces A, B, C and D. You wonder how many different combinations of pieces you can make involving all four.
Well the answer is simple...ONE. There is only one combination that involves all four.
ABCD
But what about combinations involving 3 pieces?
Well now you can have four different combinations.
ABC
ABD
ACD
BCD
What about combinations involving 2 flavors?
Now you can have six combinations....
See how that works? When you limit the amount of abilities one build can have, you increase the number of builds possible. If they let you have TONS of abilities on the action bar, you would have much less variety.
See how that works? When you limit the amount of abilities one build can have, you increase the number of builds possible. If they let you have TONS of abilities on the action bar, you would have much less variety.
Seriously.. Who care about the number of build a game can have. Theres 5000ability, you can chose 8 of them. MAke trillion of build. It doesn't improve the game at all. Where's the freedom? No where, you're limited to these 8 slot and these 8slot only. You can't adjust your build you love, with out modifying it. So You either have to go with another build that actually ruin your style or something. which mean, destroying the freedom.
Let see, your a perfect tank, having 4 class and 4 character skill, The class are using a hammer and shield, to pummel and stun your opponent while dishing good damage and alot of agro. Your character skill are paladin, warrior and shadow knight skill that help you in your defensive ability and movement. ( just guessing). You have no healing, taking low health mob is a breeze and boss uite correctly. But then you enconter a boss that make your defense totally useless. You have now, to die or run away, because you're losing too much health to this boss. Unable to attack or defend against it, your build is now useless. You have to switch to something else.
On the otherhand, with the number of action bar ro skill you want, in just a botton swap you could of stay afar away, using your wizard and warlock ability to cast thunderstorm and torment from far away on that new encounter. While still keeping your build with out having to change anything endlessly.
This 8slot build is smillar to The secret world. it's fine, yes but it's a pain when you have to switch over and over and over to different style to fit different encounter. I have a character that's an healer, a dps, a tank ect, but can't fit them all to be good. It's gonna be the same in EQN. You won't be able to be very good at everything, due to limitation. Even if you played for 2000th hour, unlocked all class and skill. you're stuck to the most cheesy build you can make. which is retarded.
In a roleplay way, you learn how to play bard music, but as you went and became a necromancer, and loved that role, you "forgot" your music and song? And in some event, you have to forget your necromancy spell, to remember your song? lol that's just plain stupid.
In EQ1, you had 8spell gem but only one class dedicated to these gem. These gem could also be changed in the middle of battle. Unlike skill in EQN. Which mean... the freedom is completly broken in EQN which also mean it's very bad.
See how that works? When you limit the amount of abilities one build can have, you increase the number of builds possible. If they let you have TONS of abilities on the action bar, you would have much less variety.
Seriously.. Who care about the number of build a game can have. Theres 5000ability, you can chose 8 of them. MAke trillion of build. It doesn't improve the game at all. Where's the freedom? No where, you're limited to these 8 slot and these 8slot only. You can't adjust your build you love, with out modifying it. So You either have to go with another build that actually ruin your style or something. which mean, destroying the freedom.
Let see, your a perfect tank, having 4 class and 4 character skill, The class are using a hammer and shield, to pummel and stun your opponent while dishing good damage and alot of agro. Your character skill are paladin, warrior and shadow knight skill that help you in your defensive ability and movement. ( just guessing). You have no healing, taking low health mob is a breeze and boss uite correctly. But then you enconter a boss that make your defense totally useless. You have now, to die or run away, because you're losing too much health to this boss. Unable to attack or defend against it, your build is now useless. You have to switch to something else.
On the otherhand, with the number of action bar ro skill you want, in just a botton swap you could of stay afar away, using your wizard and warlock ability to cast thunderstorm and torment from far away on that new encounter. While still keeping your build with out having to change anything endlessly.
This 8slot build is smillar to The secret world. it's fine, yes but it's a pain when you have to switch over and over and over to different style to fit different encounter. I have a character that's an healer, a dps, a tank ect, but can't fit them all to be good. It's gonna be the same in EQN. You won't be able to be very good at everything, due to limitation. Even if you played for 2000th hour, unlocked all class and skill. you're stuck to the most cheesy build you can make. which is retarded.
In a roleplay way, you learn how to play bard music, but as you went and became a necromancer, and loved that role, you "forgot" your music and song? And in some event, you have to forget your necromancy spell, to remember your song? lol that's just plain stupid.
In EQ1, you had 8spell gem but only one class dedicated to these gem. These gem could also be changed in the middle of battle. Unlike skill in EQN. Which mean... the freedom is completly broken in EQN which also mean it's very bad.
You're making a lot of assumptions here...
First, the situations you present are completely hypothetical. Yeah maybe your tank build doesn't work against monster X, but maybe it does, who knows? It all depends upon the game design. If the game is designed such that you need to constantly switch your build just to survive, then maybe it wasn't designed very well. A good build should be able to serve in various situations.
Second, I think it's GOOD that you can't be good at everything. If you could, that would completely remove the need for specialized team play. That's what happened to GW2 PvE I think. Every class was capable of being entirely self-sufficient, so team play wound up feeling really chaotic. You just fought like you would in a dynamic event or whatever and wound up winning. No real need to help your buddies unless they went down. For EQN, I WANT there to be dependencies between players.
Third, this whole "it's not realistic" argument is silly. Job switching has been an RPG staple for a long time...if you don't like it, sorry, but you're not going to get anywhere talking about how a bard switching to a necromancer is not realistic, but being able to kill someone with the power of your lute is.
First, the situations you present are completely hypothetical. Yeah maybe your tank build doesn't work against monster X, but maybe it does, who knows? It all depends upon the game design. If the game is designed such that you need to constantly switch your build just to survive, then maybe it wasn't designed very well. A good build should be able to serve in various situations.
Second, I think it's GOOD that you can't be good at everything. If you could, that would completely remove the need for specialized team play. That's what happened to GW2 PvE I think. Every class was capable of being entirely self-sufficient, so team play wound up feeling really chaotic. You just fought like you would in a dynamic event or whatever and wound up winning. No real need to help your buddies unless they went down. For EQN, I WANT there to be dependencies between players.
Third, this whole "it's not realistic" argument is silly. Job switching has been an RPG staple for a long time...if you don't like it, sorry, but you're not going to get anywhere talking about how a bard switching to a necromancer is not realistic, but being able to kill someone with the power of your lute is.
Well, I just made an exemple, obviously we don't know much about the game. yet it's just an exemple about how limitation ruin the freedom of the player.
As for your second point.. it's rare to be able to be good at everything, as a single role. You'd have to match everything and time everything. as to e able to heal yourself while in middle of a fight with out losing agro and dps. You know.. But then, You want dependencie between player. If so, what about solo player? Beg for group till you find one? That's exactly the purpose of eliminating the trinity. If you want to depend on other class to do your quest, make friend and stick with those that are like you and want specially to stick to one of the precise role and depend on other to survive. I"m not asking for godmode, I'm asking for the freedom of using everything I've learnt in my character career to be freely usable when i want to with out switching endlessly build. I Don't wanna be a necromancer one day and a bard the next day, i want to be both, at the same time.
Yes job changing has been in game for a long time, for which reason? Because game were focused on class only and multi-classing didn't go deeper as to just switch job and tag little from each to benefit your character with out having to reroll endlessly. Again, if i take the exemple of rift soul system, it's similar. You can chose 3 soul, have different skill and set them how you want. Yet you have to make build to fit your role. You can't max everything either. As in TSW, you have to adjust your passive accordingly to your active skill to benefit your role as well.
If a character has unlocked all class after a long journey, why can't he unleash all the ability he learnt? It's like you're a singer one day, a cook the next. but as you cook you forget how to sing and can't do both.. That's what I mean by being completly unrealistic.
In EQN, As it's going to be a sandbox, you should be able to sandbox your skill as well. Do what you want, how you want and have complete freedom on how you want to do it.
First, the situations you present are completely hypothetical. Yeah maybe your tank build doesn't work against monster X, but maybe it does, who knows? It all depends upon the game design. If the game is designed such that you need to constantly switch your build just to survive, then maybe it wasn't designed very well. A good build should be able to serve in various situations.
Second, I think it's GOOD that you can't be good at everything. If you could, that would completely remove the need for specialized team play. That's what happened to GW2 PvE I think. Every class was capable of being entirely self-sufficient, so team play wound up feeling really chaotic. You just fought like you would in a dynamic event or whatever and wound up winning. No real need to help your buddies unless they went down. For EQN, I WANT there to be dependencies between players.
Third, this whole "it's not realistic" argument is silly. Job switching has been an RPG staple for a long time...if you don't like it, sorry, but you're not going to get anywhere talking about how a bard switching to a necromancer is not realistic, but being able to kill someone with the power of your lute is.
Well, I just made an exemple, obviously we don't know much about the game. yet it's just an exemple about how limitation ruin the freedom of the player.
As for your second point.. it's rare to be able to be good at everything, as a single role. You'd have to match everything and time everything. as to e able to heal yourself while in middle of a fight with out losing agro and dps. You know.. But then, You want dependencie between player. If so, what about solo player? Beg for group till you find one? That's exactly the purpose of eliminating the trinity. If you want to depend on other class to do your quest, make friend and stick with those that are like you and want specially to stick to one of the precise role and depend on other to survive. I"m not asking for godmode, I'm asking for the freedom of using everything I've learnt in my character career to be freely usable when i want to with out switching endlessly build. I Don't wanna be a necromancer one day and a bard the next day, i want to be both, at the same time.
Yes job changing has been in game for a long time, for which reason? Because game were focused on class only and multi-classing didn't go deeper as to just switch job and tag little from each to benefit your character with out having to reroll endlessly. Again, if i take the exemple of rift soul system, it's similar. You can chose 3 soul, have different skill and set them how you want. Yet you have to make build to fit your role. You can't max everything either. As in TSW, you have to adjust your passive accordingly to your active skill to benefit your role as well.
If a character has unlocked all class after a long journey, why can't he unleash all the ability he learnt? It's like you're a singer one day, a cook the next. but as you cook you forget how to sing and can't do both.. That's what I mean by being completly unrealistic.
In EQN, As it's going to be a sandbox, you should be able to sandbox your skill as well. Do what you want, how you want and have complete freedom on how you want to do it.
I see tons of posts of people saying "if everyone can do everything, then you end up with boring zerg GW2 combat". Now I'm seeing posts of "But I want the freedom to do everything all at once!". You really can't have it both ways. Either you can do everything, or you can't. I MUCH prefer very restricted, specialized classes.
I think allowing every player to do everything makes for very boring gameplay where its essentially a 1-player game and you just zerg everything with enough players. This is the #1 complaint everyone has about GW2.
Let's be clear on another thing: they never said they are eliminating roles or a trinity. They said the "classic" idea of a trinity won't be there because NPCs are too smart to just sit on the tank for 5 minutes. That doesn't mean you wont have defensive classes/abilities, healers, CC, or tons of other roles. In order to make roles viable, you have to restrict the abilities people can have.
As Creslin's example of letter combinations illustrates: if you give everyone the ability to do everything, you will end up with 1 class.
This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?
Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?
Thx for your thoughts about that
You can disregard all the action combat hoopla statements. The real and only reason for the severely limited action bar is because they want it to be a console port for the PS4. Can't let PC players have 3 action bars and the PS4 players only 8 abilities.
This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?
Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?
Thx for your thoughts about that
You can disregard all the action combat hoopla statements. The real and only reason for the severely limited action bar is because they want it to be a console port for the PS4. Can't let PC players have 3 action bars and the PS4 players only 8 abilities.
This argument was already disproven... Please see earlier post about number of abilities on console version of FF14.
Comments
Where are you getting this 4+4 stuff? Its 4 and 4 = 8. There might be clicky abilities from certain items like those supposed glider boots but otherwise its 4 weapon and 4 class abilities.
Sorry but by what you're saying your GW2 skills are at the "scrub" level. Yeah you can just "spam" your abilities and this is actually quite common in the new bloodlust areas. I enjoy trashing these backpedalers.
Most DOTA heroes of four abilities...FOUR. And DOTA is regarded to be one of the most hardcore, tactically involved games out there.
The amount of abilities on your action bar has basically nothing to do with the tactical depth and fun factor of the combat. I mean, look at Rift...that game has TONS of abilities on your action bar, but combat boils down to heavy macro use and/or pressing the same sequence over and over.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I dont know why people say this. MOBA's are the most easiest games to get into and be good at. Thats why so many people play em. Blizzard learned long ago the easier your game is the more people play. The Average gamer isnt some skilled, quick thinking, coordinated person. That is why MOBA type games do better than say RTS this is why Blizzards RTS games and command and conquer did better than the complex ones that were coming out back then (which now you never see anymore).
The only think difficult about MOBA games is finding the fastest way to lvl. Cheap characters and cheap ways to out lvl your competition win. And also item builds to some degree but most figure out the op items pretty quick and there very lil variance on how to build your character (usually just two ways).
Again MOBA games are easy mode. That is why they are played so much. Its a dumb down version of an RTS with dumb down RPG elements. Started with a star craft map but became big with a Warcraft 3 MOD. Warcraft 3 being the must dumb down RTS ever, even dumber than its predecessor Warcraft 1 and 2. And thats why it sold more.
Simple, quick to get into and made for the lowest denominator of player skill out sells Complex, hard to master and strategic games.
Not going to quote people as , well there are lots of you , using the it's a console game so the controller can't handle more than 8 or 16 abilities. Well news just in , well in nearly 2 years ago. BadOrb uses 40 , yes that's 40 , abilities on his 360 controller playing SWTOR. So yeah I don't believe the devs have lied they really want you to focus what's going on on screen rather than stare at hotbars. mind you I don't stare at my hotbars in SWTOR unless I'm healing a manic tank
.
Also 8 skills isn't too bad and action combat is great PSO and PSU says so , or said so as they are now closed down.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
You have 4 weapon abilities and the ability to change to an alternate weapon. Thus 4 + 4
on the utility side you have 4 abilities and hopefully youll be able to do the same thing and activate a second bank of 4 abilities.
thus 4+4 and 4+4=16. The limitation of course that you can only use 8 at a time, but will have 16 available on the fly and potentially hundreds out of combat.
:O
Really? MOBA's are the easiest games to get into and be good at? Are you seriously saying that?
To just BEGIN to be decent at DOTA 2 you have to not only learn over 100 characters and all of their abilities. You also have to learn how they all interact with each other. For example, lifestealer's rage gives him partial magic immunity...do you know the abilities that it does NOT protect you from? If you don't, then you are going to be in big trouble going against a Beastmaster or Enigma. I've been playing DOTA 2 for months now and I'm still just basically an intermediate player.
Also, are you honestly saying that WC3 is more "dumbed down" than WC1? Did you play WC1? WC1 had basically ONE FACTION that was just skinned differently and had very few differences. WC3 had four factions that each had very difficult and unique play styles. Which game sounds more complex??
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
HE was saying that devs. are making most their money on consoles when it comes to fps games. And that they are thinking, how will this work on a console remote not how will it work on a keyboard.
Which is pretty much true.
I'm going to be honest...I think that this "console conspiracy" argument has nothing to do with their decision for the number of abilities. I am playing FFXIV right now on my PC, but it is out for PS3 as well and I'm using the gamepad controls. It has lots of abilities...like 27 for a max level character, more for pet classes, and yet it works fine on a controller.
It's really not that hard...when you hold down RB, your four buttons and four D-pad directions do certain things. When you hold down LB and press them, they do different things. And you can page through different abilities using RT and LT. It's also tab target combat (well not tab with the gamepad), and that works find as well.
So if FFXIV is a game actually out on a console that has tons of abilities, and it works fine. Then I fail to see how this "console conspiracy" argument holds any water.
Here is an example of the FFXIV gamepad controls...
The reason they have less abilities is so they can have MORE builds. Which gives the game MORE variety.
To illustrate this, imagine you have 4 scrabble pieces A, B, C and D. You wonder how many different combinations of pieces you can make involving all four.
Well the answer is simple...ONE. There is only one combination that involves all four.
ABCD
But what about combinations involving 3 pieces?
Well now you can have four different combinations.
ABC
ABD
ACD
BCD
What about combinations involving 2 flavors?
Now you can have six combinations....
See how that works? When you limit the amount of abilities one build can have, you increase the number of builds possible. If they let you have TONS of abilities on the action bar, you would have much less variety.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Seriously.. Who care about the number of build a game can have. Theres 5000ability, you can chose 8 of them. MAke trillion of build. It doesn't improve the game at all. Where's the freedom? No where, you're limited to these 8 slot and these 8slot only. You can't adjust your build you love, with out modifying it. So You either have to go with another build that actually ruin your style or something. which mean, destroying the freedom.
Let see, your a perfect tank, having 4 class and 4 character skill, The class are using a hammer and shield, to pummel and stun your opponent while dishing good damage and alot of agro. Your character skill are paladin, warrior and shadow knight skill that help you in your defensive ability and movement. ( just guessing). You have no healing, taking low health mob is a breeze and boss uite correctly. But then you enconter a boss that make your defense totally useless. You have now, to die or run away, because you're losing too much health to this boss. Unable to attack or defend against it, your build is now useless. You have to switch to something else.
On the otherhand, with the number of action bar ro skill you want, in just a botton swap you could of stay afar away, using your wizard and warlock ability to cast thunderstorm and torment from far away on that new encounter. While still keeping your build with out having to change anything endlessly.
This 8slot build is smillar to The secret world. it's fine, yes but it's a pain when you have to switch over and over and over to different style to fit different encounter. I have a character that's an healer, a dps, a tank ect, but can't fit them all to be good. It's gonna be the same in EQN. You won't be able to be very good at everything, due to limitation. Even if you played for 2000th hour, unlocked all class and skill. you're stuck to the most cheesy build you can make. which is retarded.
In a roleplay way, you learn how to play bard music, but as you went and became a necromancer, and loved that role, you "forgot" your music and song? And in some event, you have to forget your necromancy spell, to remember your song? lol that's just plain stupid.
In EQ1, you had 8spell gem but only one class dedicated to these gem. These gem could also be changed in the middle of battle. Unlike skill in EQN. Which mean... the freedom is completly broken in EQN which also mean it's very bad.
You're making a lot of assumptions here...
First, the situations you present are completely hypothetical. Yeah maybe your tank build doesn't work against monster X, but maybe it does, who knows? It all depends upon the game design. If the game is designed such that you need to constantly switch your build just to survive, then maybe it wasn't designed very well. A good build should be able to serve in various situations.
Second, I think it's GOOD that you can't be good at everything. If you could, that would completely remove the need for specialized team play. That's what happened to GW2 PvE I think. Every class was capable of being entirely self-sufficient, so team play wound up feeling really chaotic. You just fought like you would in a dynamic event or whatever and wound up winning. No real need to help your buddies unless they went down. For EQN, I WANT there to be dependencies between players.
Third, this whole "it's not realistic" argument is silly. Job switching has been an RPG staple for a long time...if you don't like it, sorry, but you're not going to get anywhere talking about how a bard switching to a necromancer is not realistic, but being able to kill someone with the power of your lute is.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well, I just made an exemple, obviously we don't know much about the game. yet it's just an exemple about how limitation ruin the freedom of the player.
As for your second point.. it's rare to be able to be good at everything, as a single role. You'd have to match everything and time everything. as to e able to heal yourself while in middle of a fight with out losing agro and dps. You know.. But then, You want dependencie between player. If so, what about solo player? Beg for group till you find one? That's exactly the purpose of eliminating the trinity. If you want to depend on other class to do your quest, make friend and stick with those that are like you and want specially to stick to one of the precise role and depend on other to survive. I"m not asking for godmode, I'm asking for the freedom of using everything I've learnt in my character career to be freely usable when i want to with out switching endlessly build. I Don't wanna be a necromancer one day and a bard the next day, i want to be both, at the same time.
Yes job changing has been in game for a long time, for which reason? Because game were focused on class only and multi-classing didn't go deeper as to just switch job and tag little from each to benefit your character with out having to reroll endlessly. Again, if i take the exemple of rift soul system, it's similar. You can chose 3 soul, have different skill and set them how you want. Yet you have to make build to fit your role. You can't max everything either. As in TSW, you have to adjust your passive accordingly to your active skill to benefit your role as well.
If a character has unlocked all class after a long journey, why can't he unleash all the ability he learnt? It's like you're a singer one day, a cook the next. but as you cook you forget how to sing and can't do both.. That's what I mean by being completly unrealistic.
In EQN, As it's going to be a sandbox, you should be able to sandbox your skill as well. Do what you want, how you want and have complete freedom on how you want to do it.
I see tons of posts of people saying "if everyone can do everything, then you end up with boring zerg GW2 combat". Now I'm seeing posts of "But I want the freedom to do everything all at once!". You really can't have it both ways. Either you can do everything, or you can't. I MUCH prefer very restricted, specialized classes.
I think allowing every player to do everything makes for very boring gameplay where its essentially a 1-player game and you just zerg everything with enough players. This is the #1 complaint everyone has about GW2.
Let's be clear on another thing: they never said they are eliminating roles or a trinity. They said the "classic" idea of a trinity won't be there because NPCs are too smart to just sit on the tank for 5 minutes. That doesn't mean you wont have defensive classes/abilities, healers, CC, or tons of other roles. In order to make roles viable, you have to restrict the abilities people can have.
As Creslin's example of letter combinations illustrates: if you give everyone the ability to do everything, you will end up with 1 class.
You can disregard all the action combat hoopla statements. The real and only reason for the severely limited action bar is because they want it to be a console port for the PS4. Can't let PC players have 3 action bars and the PS4 players only 8 abilities.
This argument was already disproven... Please see earlier post about number of abilities on console version of FF14.