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Warriors need to be buffed.
Justsomenoob
Member UncommonPosts: 880
This is kinda silly honestly. At max level, sure they're PLAYABLE, but inferior. What's the point of warriors at the moment? You can gear them up and play fine...where you could have played a paladin and done better in equivalent gear.
As a healer, I'd prefer that 0 warriors ever appear in my group. They take more damage than paladins and there's just no equivalent payoff justifying it. It's not like they do some meaningful amount of extra damage in the endgame, or are wildly superior as offtanks or anything. They're just...inferior. No payoff, just bad. If you play well as a warrior, you'd play better as a paladin. Period.
What's the deal here? I'd be pretty pissed if I mained one. It seems to be the most glaring imbalance in the game at the moment. Which is pretty silly considering there's only 2 tanks and it should be relatively easy to make one roughly comparable to the other.
Comments
I'm a healer too.
In nearly everything, I don't really care if the tank is a warrior or paladin. I do expect warriors to have more health than paladins, but they usually do by virtue of being a warrior anyway. Warriors are a bit more squishy, but the extra health pool makes up for it. So long as the tank is doing their job, and the DPS are playing along, I have more than enough MP and healing power to keep them up on every standard pull in everything I've run so far.
I've never failed an AK or CM or even a Titan because we had a warrior instead of a paladin. Now I understand there is an issue with certain spots in Coil, and that could very well be true (idk I don't run Coil) - but for 99.9% of the content out there, it doesn't matter too much.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to Warriors getting some love. I just don't see the sky as falling for them; they are a good class/job, especially at lower levels.
That's what I thought too when I started the game and ended up tanking on the first dungeon party I joined.
Paladins are the typical shield, dmg mitigation tank. Warrior is more squishy but tries to make up for it with the fact that does a bit more dmg, has more HP and better at handling agro on multiple ads.
I'm leveling both warrior and paladin at the same time and I preferred the warrior during the first half of the game mainly because of the DPS and agro on ads. However I'm now at Brayflox and I'm starting to see what people are saying. I was geared pretty well for dungeon but my HP would go down like crazy. Sure I wasn't losing agro at all and would catch the ads as soon as they come out but the constant drop in HP would put a lot of pressure to the healer. Huge pool of HP but that drops down quickly means the healer may run OOM.
The paladin is safer for the healer, more predictable while warrior is riskier.
I totally agree , I have a lvl 50 warrior and thought it was awesome . But then I died in Ifrit HM and the off tank paladin started tanking .. his health barely went down wtf?? .
I started levelling a paladin and now I have to say they are FAR superior to the gimped warrior in so many ways, currently level 46 with paladin .
I have people in dungeon groups saying How awesome I tank compared to the other tanks they grouped with, I never got those remarks while playing my warrior .
I'm not really pissed that I wasted a lot of time levelling warrior to find they were crap because at the time I thought they were awesome because I didn't know any better like I do now , maybe one day they will be buffed up and become flavour of the month until then they are crap at tanking compared to paladin.
Both are tanks.
Paladin = Lower HP, higher mitigation. Skills learn towards single target tanking.
Warrior = Higher HP, lower mitigation. Skills lean towards multiple target tanking.
Probably find in a 2 tank situation, the Paladin would be best on the boss. While the warrior off tanks add spawns.
I like warriors for offtanking, frequently when it requires multiple targets. For instance, warriors are pretty good in Garuda HM for the adds and in theory - Turn 4. I haven't had enough practice on Turn 4 to know exactly what I want.
If you want to speed run anything, warriors are clearly the better choice. With a good enough healer, a warrior can tank 6+ mobs as effectively as a paladin.
I think the problem is the lack of ilevel 80 gear. Although, we brought a warrior vs. Titan and the warrior was getting absolutely smashed. Mountain Busters at 5k+ every time, and this guy has full DL and relic+1. That's serious overgear for Titan.
It's really not that. The problem is that you take 5k+ damage at almost any given time on Coil bosses. That's a massive HP swing a healer has to hold back for at all times. If it happens too close together, then your scholar is going to run out of Aether and you'll die. There's nothing you can do about it.
We almost beat Caduceus with two warriors, but when we added a paladin it went very smoothly. The consistency from a paladin is what makes it such a desirable job to heal. Warriors swing all over the place due to their lack of mitigation. One crit, one bad rotation, and the warrior goes down before a healer can do anything. You don't want to rely on RNG in Coil.
The self regen is largely besides the point, Warriors need better mitigation. I do think we'll see improvement as more get into AF2 or Crystal Tower gear. Whether or not it scales better than paladin remains to be seen.
However, the dev team has stressed several times that they think the Warrior is fine and that it is a recommended job Coil....so maybe it's just us noobs. :P
I read that as well. Its what made me start leveling one recently. Makes me wonder what can possibly be going over every Warriors head that the devs are saying they do it wrong. I know there are some bad players out there that have a hard time figuring out their classes ... but everyone?
I understood it a bit differently. Simply because the developer sees no issue doesn't mean there isn't a problem right now. I don't think every Warrior sucks, quite the opposite. I think the players on Warrior are largely better players than Paladins because it is a significantly harder job to play.
I think there is an issue with items - specifically scaling. With higher ToM caps coming tomorrow and Crystal Tower releasing soon, we are going to see major gear progression much faster. It all depends on the scaling.
We don't know what the scaling is going to be like, but the dev team obviously does. If they are encouraging us to use Warriors, I think it's fair to assume that there is something about the progression of Warriors that will bring them on par with Paladins.
It wouldn't be the first time where a gimped class inverts the relative progression and comes out on top. Most classes have a down trend period, and it may be the case that the Warrior down trend is at ilevel 70.
As playing Scholar, I honestly prefer an equally geared War to a Paladin. Keep in mind Wars get bonuses to heals they receive as well (15% I believe) and with the bigger health pool it usually makes up enough. Sure, they do get hit more often but they typically have their own ways of recovering to some limited extent.
I still feel that in a fight with a boss that is primarily a caster, a Warrior would win hands out as mitigation will be less favored over raw health, the extra health and healing recieved aiding greatly in its ability to take the blows better then a paladin.
If the warriors were to get a buff, it would be a small one, perhaps to have a little more mitigation or healing input (more bonuses towards it), I feel that the warrior is about on par with a Paladin, if not slightly weaker, and even then it has certain types of encounters were it will outshine paladins such as fights needing that extra dps or fights with a lot of spell casting going around.
Are SCH and WHM equal in healing? ( tank jobs are low lvl, play dps so I dont notice)
Reason I ask is if there the same then there is something wrong with warriors...
But im thinking they have alot planed for endgame and jobs will be more specific instead of healers, tanks, dps.
No, they are not. A SCH is far more piecemeal, although total mitigation easily rivals a WHM. The SCH has extreme MP efficiency while the WHM has extreme heals at the cost of efficiency.
A SCH spike heal relies on 3 spells -> Embrace (Fairy), Physick, Lustrate (instant, scales 20% of HP). All three can be cast in quick succession. So, you can easily drop about 600+950+1110 (@ 5500 HP) = 2660 in about 2 seconds. This can be done 3 times per minute.
A WHM can simply cast one spell Benediction - tops off the entire HP in one go but for a significantly longer CD.
A SCH AoE relies on shielding, so in order to rival Medica it must both heal its full quantity and prevent damage within 30 seconds. Otherwise, it's an expensive mediocre AoE heal.
A WHM AoE is massive healing - particularly Medica II. The MP cost is high.
For aggro, the WHM has far more initially. If it's a long battle aggro should go Tank -> Off Tank -> FAIRY -> Scholar -> White Mage. Shroud will drastically cut aggro, causing the scholar to top the aggro charts. However, since you are spamming your fairy spells in order to minimize your MP usage (thus lengthening your viability) - the fairy will eventually top the chart. If you notice things going to hell, take your fairy and move her far away from the party. Then stand on the opposite side of the battle. The boss will run at the fairy, then to you - buying your team at least another 15s to take down the boss.
Overall, the SCH is better suited for healing warriors because they don't really overheal and have far better efficiency along with the spike heal scaling with HP. However, SCHs are designed to counter medium damage - huge spikes will tax a SCH badly because the throughput is less than WHM.
This is why I recommend running a Warrio as an offtank.
No, not equal, but not so different that you would absolutely take one over the other.
If your talking low levels, SCH have a clear advantage when they level sync down under L30. I don't think it's unfair though, because you are level syncing down to get it, and the content is such that either healer can do it easily enough anyway. At L50, the classes are built to synergize one another; I wouldn't say one is "better" than the other, but I would say that while viable, 2xWHM probably would have an easier time than 2xSCH based solely on the capacity of AOE healing (which has little to do with the tank).
How that relates to the unevenness of the tank classes, I don't know though.
I play a Warrior and have had zero problems tanking everything up to level 45. Now granted that can change drastically at 50, but I'm not seeing the problem yet. I've also had several people comment that I'm a pretty damn good tank, so I must be doing something right! LOL.
Since my mitigation isn't as high as a Paladin's, I can see that as stressing out healers more often because my health will swing around a lot more, but it's always been within acceptable limits. If the healer is attentive, I never have any problems staying alive. Hell, I've finished plenty of fights where the healer is dead because I have a lot of tools to recover my own health with out assistance.
I also play War and i have no issue with hate or HP . A good War will use everything he/she has to hold hate and it can be done easy . What i do
Get mobs or boss with tomahawk once gathered overwhelm then flash then overwhelm then flash again then i use my ability to give me 5 wrath then i use steel cyclone then run my 1st hate generation on single mob/boss after my 3 hate generating attacks i follow up with a overwhelm and a flash again ( i save voke as a back up ) Then i have 2 Wrath built up at this point i cycle my 1st attack cycle witch gives me 2 more wrath then i overwhelm and flash again then i cycle my 3rd attack cycle witch gives me my 5th wrath and then use inner beast . Then i go back to the same process again ,
In a tight situation i have a quick self heal macro that is the pug ability that grants 20% cure bonus then i use 5 wrath i built up for inner beast then i use second wind then i use the ability that gives me 5 wrath again then i use inner beast again and pop bloodbath if its not already up . This gives me about 2,000 ~ 2,500 HP after words .
Just have to know how to play the class is all i have pulled hate off a lot of PLDs and made it near impossible for a PLD to pull hate off me
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I have a DL WAR and while I don't agree with all the sentiments of the OP, I do agree that they're not stacking up with PLD at the moment. Even with WAR’s higher HP and skills that heal the PLD's mitigation skills are simply too useful. I do think that a static (coordinated) group of people could take WAR into coil as the MT, but other than simply wanting to do so there’s no reason to take one over a PLD.
It doesn’t help any that there’s a huge difference in the skill factor between PLD and WAR. The difference between a good/bad WAR is much larger than good/bad PLD.
However, I strongly disagree that WAR has nothing over PLD. It is my experience as Relic +1 BLM that WAR tanks do a far better job at laying down enmity. With a really good WAR I can go all out (200+ dps) and never pull agro (even using DoT procs on 2nd and 3rd targets). I much prefer WAR for AK/CM runs simply for that fact.