Okay we need to clarify some stuff before random people who know nothing about programming reply ....
1- SOE give NO TOOL, NOTHING for creating the contents you do, you pretty much use well know softwares...
2- they require a lot of work for making anything decent and from someone working in this field gains not much at the end...
3- 60 % ready too much, that the first time I'm seeing something like that, they do nothing in the work involved, again someone who can create such features, item , for resume someone who can create the contents ..... better... WORK for doing something else , not worth the money or the time...
4- yes they create the game but so what ? If they want more people working for them , HIRE THEM !! This will cost them way more money...
That's really pathetic but would be okay with 80 % - 20 % for the creator since so give only the platform where it will be used.
The people that this appeals to are largely the people that would do it for free.
They are doing it for FUN, not work. the money is a bonus.
SoE isnt exactly a cash cow company. They arent rolling in profits overall, they do stuff like this so they can continue to support EQ/EQ2 as well as work on EQNext.
On top of development cost, THEY have to pay for the servers, the electricity and the internet cost to run it, in addition to hiring the staff, AND providing the staff WITH the necessary benefits and insurance AS WELL AS basic sustenance like coffee, running water, flushing toilet, etc etc.
What do the running costs of the game have to do with the content an artist creates? If you sell let's say a 3D model of a car to a racing game do they charge you for their development cost of the game, the coffee they drink and the water they use?
Seriously, i don't understand it and would genuinely have an answer to this.
I can't speak for SOE's set up, however the times I've been involved in getting User-Generated Content (UGC) into a game there was usually a certain amount of work required by various departments (ex: community, graphic design, development) from start to finish.
Setting up the content submission system is usually a fair amount of work, but once it's in place there is staff that manages or oversees it. Once a work is accepted, it often has to be touched up or edited to properly match the look and feel of the game. Sometimes new versions have to be created, such as when both low and high poly versions of the models/textures have to be built from the one submitted or when additional layers are needed for shadows, normals or other effects. There's also the matter of the art pipeline, which may require a different format for the submitted content altogether. After that, there's incorporating it into a build or whatever system is in place to allow the client to download and recognize it.
Now, in the case of some form of sales or real money transaction, you're now adding the billing system and other departments, as well.
So, while I don't know SOE's particular system ( I'm not about to touch that the whole coffee and toilet water thing), I can tell you that the entire process does require a lot more manpower and resources than clicking 'Approve' and having it automagically appear in the game as is.
EDIT: Something that appears to be severely overlooked by several in this thread is that creating this content is voluntary and not necessary for the game or your enjoyment of it. If you wish to voluntarily contribute, you can. SOE will give you the tools to do so, and there is even some form of compensation afterwards. This content is not required of you or even asked of you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
[mod edit]
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You people don't seem to realize how retail works. If you don't like it, take your tools, and sell your 3D images on craigslist or ebay, see how much money you make.
The 40% is twice what I thought SoE was going to pay people...Don't like it, don't sell anything or buy anything...
Crying how SoE is unfair isn't going to change anything, same with the packs they are selling, don't like it, don't buy any and wait for it to come out for free.
I have no clue if I will like any of this stuff personally, but I do not plan on buying ot selling anything myself.
You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.
SOE does 0% of the work and gets 60% of the sales.
Are you really saying this is fair?
ANY other real money auction house where you sell to other players has a tax of around 10-15% not 60% SIXTY!
I'm under the assumption from what I seen the graphical and building elements are actually done by SoE. All your really doing is reorganizing the stuff around in a way in which it takes a full form. While I do feel it should be the opposite way (60-40 giving you the majority) its their code/textures/modeling as far as I see being used, just having manipulations handled by the players. If you coded/modeled/textured it all, sure I can agree they rip you off, but as far as I see its not.
It would be like if I were to hand you a car and you repainted it, redid the interior and all the details and you expected to get 100% of the profits, even though they established all the frame work with you just manipulating what they had.
Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
Wow people are truly dim on these forums
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
I've said it before, It needs to be inline with other development agreements: 60/40 or 70/30. more ratio to the creator, less to the wholesaler.
But in Landmark the "wholesaler" provides you with the tools and the room to do it in.
How many painter or sculptor out there will get their artist materials and tools sponsored to them, lol? (don't bother answering. I can tell you there is NONE. Even IF your arts has a permanent patron you STILL have to buy your own tools and mats)
On top of development cost, THEY have to pay for the servers, the electricity and the internet cost to run it, in addition to hiring the staff, AND providing the staff WITH the necessary benefits and insurance AS WELL AS basic sustenance like coffee, running water, flushing toilet, etc etc.
Not to mention they bring the playerbase that is going to buy your crap right to your front door and display your creative property for you.
On a separate note... doesn't 40% of the NET - mean after they subtract their costs? Isn't that 40% of the net profit only?
To me there is only one real comparision, and this is similar to schemes like Apples Development program, make apps, using their software(Xcode), put up your creation on the AppStore, and you make money. Difference between Apples scheme and this, is that with App development you take home 70% of the profits, not 40%. That right there is the main argument, and proves that SOE are being harsh with their pricing. Source: developer.apple.com
This comparison has flaws, the first being that unlike the App Store, Landmark presents your creation to a ready-made customer base with a much narrower focus - narrower by virtue of a player base focused solely on one product and the modifications available for purchase therein - that is restricted to an already developed product that has engaged your potential market for you before you even turn on your pc.
Secondly, development within Landmark comes with the beneficial weight of the IP's brand name behind it, and in the narrower focus of the medium in which prospective developers will be working, this will likely affect sales in a more drastic manner than would mere inclusion in an app store.
You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.
SOE does 0% of the work and gets 60% of the sales.
Are you really saying this is fair?
ANY other real money auction house where you sell to other players has a tax of around 10-15% not 60% SIXTY!
I'm under the assumption from what I seen the graphical and building elements are actually done by SoE. All your really doing is reorganizing the stuff around in a way in which it takes a full form. While I do feel it should be the opposite way (60-40 giving you the majority) its their code/textures/modeling as far as I see being used, just having manipulations handled by the players. If you coded/modeled/textured it all, sure I can agree they rip you off, but as far as I see its not.
It would be like if I were to hand you a car and you repainted it, redid the interior and all the details and you expected to get 100% of the profits, even though they established all the frame work with you just manipulating what they had.
Without their environment, you would have zero market for the items you create. That alone buys 60% lol. It's like refurbishing a car you can only drive on Mars and paying the Mars government a 60% fee to allow you to market the car there. On Mars, you get 40%... on Earth, you get ZERO.
Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
Wow people are truly dim on these forums
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.
A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?
The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.
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Hey! Some people don't have access to those programs, and many more are clueless on the use of them. Plus those programs are only for additional unique models/textures, you'll be able to build larger things like buildings, palaces, and castles just fine with the game toolset I bet. If you really want to make something unique, and have the programs to do so, then you're allowed to do so. Sounds fine by me, but I also have some of those programs.
The odd thing is, for those posing the question, a modder wouldn't normally get any money for their mod, well the modder doesn't normally charge real money for their creations either. Personally I'd never pay real money to buy a castle or house built in an MMO, just like I wouldn't pay for someones user creation of a wow addon, or a Sims house etc. It seems odd to me that there is a price at all, let alone it being a tight ratio.
Originally posted by sbanting The odd thing is, for those posing the question, a modder wouldn't normally get any money for their mod, well the modder doesn't normally charge real money for their creations either. Personally I'd never pay real money to buy a castle or house built in an MMO, just like I wouldn't pay for someones user creation of a wow addon, or a Sims house etc. It seems odd to me that there is a price at all, let alone it being a tight ratio.
The answer is simple, however inconvenient for many: Players are willing to pay for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
Wow people are truly dim on these forums
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.
A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?
The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.
It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.
As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.
Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.
They've established their portion of the revenue long before people will begin creating and nothing on this big blue earth is coercing people to make pretty houses in Everquest.
Now a separate thought is that SoE is double dipping by collecting revenue from player content and from a monthly fee.
That part I'm not viewing fondly.
And the goofball that thought this was in any way whatsoever comparable to Chinese sweat shops need to keep track of whatever pills he's been popping. I don't imagine anyone has to or ever will have to choose between creating landscape in a MMO as a non employee or living.
Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
Wow people are truly dim on these forums
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.
A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?
The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.
It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.
As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.
Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.
My only point was the atrocious nature of the comparison being made. Even if made in jest, you are simply wrong for doing so in a public scene where people may have family members subjected to such conditions.
As for usury laws, sure they exist for a reason, but do not apply to the entertainment industry, as it is a luxury expense. If someone spends beyond there means, they deserve what they get. There are numerous free utilities, government provided, that can assist you with advancing your quality of life, you just have to be willing to work for it. As such, I have no pity for people who have no self control.
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Originally posted by Nhoj1983 How is this a big deal? If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive. Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with. Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years. Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs) Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.
I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
Wow people are truly dim on these forums
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.
A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?
The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.
It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.
As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.
Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.
My only point was the atrocious nature of the comparison being made. Even if made in jest, you are simply wrong for doing so in a public scene where people may have family members subjected to such conditions.
As for usury laws, sure they exist for a reason, but do not apply to the entertainment industry, as it is a luxury expense. If someone spends beyond there means, they deserve what they get. There are numerous free utilities, government provided, that can assist you with advancing your quality of life, you just have to be willing to work for it. As such, I have no pity for people who have no self control.
First of all I agree I shouldn't have referenced that comparison. I stuffed up.
Now back on topic, it's not about luxury goods though, it's about the percentage of money someone gets from their work.
You introduce an extremely good topic, OP. My opinion is that it's a very interesting approach to achieving long term involvement from players and modders alike. It sort of makes me wish that I had the skills to submit one. As for being fair, I cannot comment because I do not know the programming side of things.
My concern with this system is that programmers will need to figure out exactly how Sony monetizes the content that produces the income -- which features attract the most players and at the same time entice players to spend actual real dollars. Once this strategy materializes and becomes widespread knowledge, I fear that a lot of creativity will be lost at the expense of the drive toward maximizing profit.
And although I do feel that any player-created content is worth the experiment and at least initially offsets the damages, I would caution Sony to prepare for pervasive abuses of security, content theft, copying, and other infringements that any money makings web based system usually introduce.
You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.
Is a better deal than their coders get. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WTF..... Id understand if they take 10%-20%.... but 60%??!! this is unexceptable!
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics. Reply Add Multi-Quote
Clearly lots of ignorant posts in this thread. Most likely its from people who have NO CLUE how good a 40% cut in profit margin is.
Then again only in America are you the villain because your a productive tax paying member of society while 20-30% of the population COMPLAINS because they are getting free stuff fast enough.
As an author, my royalty percentage is far lower than this on books. If you as artist don't believe 40% is good enough for your fantastic artwork, well, don't sell it then. That's the wonder of the free market.
I do not think it matters if its 40%/10% or 100% you would get from each sell.
Considering how expansive the programs are you would need its doubtfull that anyone who would not own the programs already anyways ever make a profit and the ones who own this programs already would be stupid to waste there time on this.
My wife does use some of these programs for her job and considering that she gets paid over 300 bucks a day(which is far less than what some of her coworkers make a day) to use them i just do not see anyone really being tempted by the 40%.
However if SOE would give you all programs needed i believe 40% would be more than fair for people who just like to do this kind of stuff as hobby or maybe just are not good enough to make it professional.
Comments
The people that this appeals to are largely the people that would do it for free.
They are doing it for FUN, not work. the money is a bonus.
SoE isnt exactly a cash cow company. They arent rolling in profits overall, they do stuff like this so they can continue to support EQ/EQ2 as well as work on EQNext.
I can't speak for SOE's set up, however the times I've been involved in getting User-Generated Content (UGC) into a game there was usually a certain amount of work required by various departments (ex: community, graphic design, development) from start to finish.
Setting up the content submission system is usually a fair amount of work, but once it's in place there is staff that manages or oversees it. Once a work is accepted, it often has to be touched up or edited to properly match the look and feel of the game. Sometimes new versions have to be created, such as when both low and high poly versions of the models/textures have to be built from the one submitted or when additional layers are needed for shadows, normals or other effects. There's also the matter of the art pipeline, which may require a different format for the submitted content altogether. After that, there's incorporating it into a build or whatever system is in place to allow the client to download and recognize it.
Now, in the case of some form of sales or real money transaction, you're now adding the billing system and other departments, as well.
So, while I don't know SOE's particular system ( I'm not about to touch that the whole coffee and toilet water thing), I can tell you that the entire process does require a lot more manpower and resources than clicking 'Approve' and having it automagically appear in the game as is.
EDIT: Something that appears to be severely overlooked by several in this thread is that creating this content is voluntary and not necessary for the game or your enjoyment of it. If you wish to voluntarily contribute, you can. SOE will give you the tools to do so, and there is even some form of compensation afterwards. This content is not required of you or even asked of you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!
[mod edit]
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You people don't seem to realize how retail works. If you don't like it, take your tools, and sell your 3D images on craigslist or ebay, see how much money you make.
The 40% is twice what I thought SoE was going to pay people...Don't like it, don't sell anything or buy anything...
Crying how SoE is unfair isn't going to change anything, same with the packs they are selling, don't like it, don't buy any and wait for it to come out for free.
I have no clue if I will like any of this stuff personally, but I do not plan on buying ot selling anything myself.
Thats the only reason this thread exists
I'm under the assumption from what I seen the graphical and building elements are actually done by SoE. All your really doing is reorganizing the stuff around in a way in which it takes a full form. While I do feel it should be the opposite way (60-40 giving you the majority) its their code/textures/modeling as far as I see being used, just having manipulations handled by the players. If you coded/modeled/textured it all, sure I can agree they rip you off, but as far as I see its not.
It would be like if I were to hand you a car and you repainted it, redid the interior and all the details and you expected to get 100% of the profits, even though they established all the frame work with you just manipulating what they had.
Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.
I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.
On a separate note... doesn't 40% of the NET - mean after they subtract their costs? Isn't that 40% of the net profit only?
No bitchers.
This comparison has flaws, the first being that unlike the App Store, Landmark presents your creation to a ready-made customer base with a much narrower focus - narrower by virtue of a player base focused solely on one product and the modifications available for purchase therein - that is restricted to an already developed product that has engaged your potential market for you before you even turn on your pc.Secondly, development within Landmark comes with the beneficial weight of the IP's brand name behind it, and in the narrower focus of the medium in which prospective developers will be working, this will likely affect sales in a more drastic manner than would mere inclusion in an app store.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Without their environment, you would have zero market for the items you create. That alone buys 60% lol. It's like refurbishing a car you can only drive on Mars and paying the Mars government a 60% fee to allow you to market the car there. On Mars, you get 40%... on Earth, you get ZERO.
No bitchers.
Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.
A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?
The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.
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Hey! Some people don't have access to those programs, and many more are clueless on the use of them. Plus those programs are only for additional unique models/textures, you'll be able to build larger things like buildings, palaces, and castles just fine with the game toolset I bet. If you really want to make something unique, and have the programs to do so, then you're allowed to do so. Sounds fine by me, but I also have some of those programs.
The answer is simple, however inconvenient for many: Players are willing to pay for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.
As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.
Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.
Don't like their cut?
Don't participate.
They've established their portion of the revenue long before people will begin creating and nothing on this big blue earth is coercing people to make pretty houses in Everquest.
Now a separate thought is that SoE is double dipping by collecting revenue from player content and from a monthly fee.
That part I'm not viewing fondly.
And the goofball that thought this was in any way whatsoever comparable to Chinese sweat shops need to keep track of whatever pills he's been popping. I don't imagine anyone has to or ever will have to choose between creating landscape in a MMO as a non employee or living.
My only point was the atrocious nature of the comparison being made. Even if made in jest, you are simply wrong for doing so in a public scene where people may have family members subjected to such conditions.
As for usury laws, sure they exist for a reason, but do not apply to the entertainment industry, as it is a luxury expense. If someone spends beyond there means, they deserve what they get. There are numerous free utilities, government provided, that can assist you with advancing your quality of life, you just have to be willing to work for it. As such, I have no pity for people who have no self control.
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First of all I agree I shouldn't have referenced that comparison. I stuffed up.
Now back on topic, it's not about luxury goods though, it's about the percentage of money someone gets from their work.
You introduce an extremely good topic, OP. My opinion is that it's a very interesting approach to achieving long term involvement from players and modders alike. It sort of makes me wish that I had the skills to submit one. As for being fair, I cannot comment because I do not know the programming side of things.
My concern with this system is that programmers will need to figure out exactly how Sony monetizes the content that produces the income -- which features attract the most players and at the same time entice players to spend actual real dollars. Once this strategy materializes and becomes widespread knowledge, I fear that a lot of creativity will be lost at the expense of the drive toward maximizing profit.
And although I do feel that any player-created content is worth the experiment and at least initially offsets the damages, I would caution Sony to prepare for pervasive abuses of security, content theft, copying, and other infringements that any money makings web based system usually introduce.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WTF..... Id understand if they take 10%-20%.... but 60%??!! this is unexceptable!
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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Clearly lots of ignorant posts in this thread. Most likely its from people who have NO CLUE how good a 40% cut in profit margin is.
Then again only in America are you the villain because your a productive tax paying member of society while 20-30% of the population COMPLAINS because they are getting free stuff fast enough.
I do not think it matters if its 40%/10% or 100% you would get from each sell.
Considering how expansive the programs are you would need its doubtfull that anyone who would not own the programs already anyways ever make a profit and the ones who own this programs already would be stupid to waste there time on this.
My wife does use some of these programs for her job and considering that she gets paid over 300 bucks a day(which is far less than what some of her coworkers make a day) to use them i just do not see anyone really being tempted by the 40%.
However if SOE would give you all programs needed i believe 40% would be more than fair for people who just like to do this kind of stuff as hobby or maybe just are not good enough to make it professional.