Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now. I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?
It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.
Honestly? I would think, intellectually, that it was a move in poor taste, but I wouldn't *care* to the extent that it impacted how much I was enjoying my day or the experience of playing the game. It's simply not worth having an emotional reaction to. As long as I have fun, I keep paying. When I stop having fun, I stop paying. It's a very simple approach, and people in general would probably be happier if they all adopted it.
It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing. The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment. Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.
" If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little"
No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie.
Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices.
It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.
No. It just means they heard what some people said and their dislike of the faction lock. And with a simple preorder they can now do what they wanted. The faction lock was originally there to keep one faction from being vastly more populated than the others.
The only controversy is coming from the people that have always bashed on TESO no matter what.. Now that they offer the option its " OMGZ what they said before was a LIE!111!!1! ".
But it was a lie.
If they were doing a service to everyone they wouldn't be locking content behind a pay gate or pre-order they would made all races playable by everyone. I say content because each race is suppose to have their own skill line.
If it turns out that all races don't have their own skill line and its simply cosmetic its no big deal. Otherwise its paying for extra content.
Races do not have their own skill line. They have passives but no skill line. The only skill lines comes from the guilds , weapons and base class.
They are afraid to call it an MMO, they can't make up their mind about how they want their factions, they are afraid of calling their adventure zones raiding, and at one point they were willing to release the game without adventure zones. Now they want to charge extra for a race like they were a f2p game.
If you call for sanity in the raging debate then the sane thing would be to tell everyone to wait with their preorders until NDA is dropped so people can give their honest opinion about the game and/or until people get in open beta to properly test it for themselves.
Question what you get instead of giving game publishers a blank check.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing. The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment. Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.
We aren't talking about apartheid here. We are talking about video games. Get some perspective.
What I am saying is that any product is designed with a specific purpose in mind. If you try the product out, and it fulfills that purpose to your satisfaction, then it was money well spent. Even if the person who made and/or sold the product is the scuzziest deviant ever to walk the earth. You aren't going to drive these people out of business by standing on principle, because you are never going to get enough people to stand with you for your principle to matter to the bottom line. So as a practical matter the only thing you accomplish by refusing to give money to "bad" companies is depriving yourself of whatever enjoyment you would have received from their products.
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by WikileaksEU If they start selling the race or to be able to be any race in any alliance i want my money back for the CE. It should be CE only. Nothing else. I want to feel special for buying the CE. Zenimax understands this.
That isn't how F2P games work. They'll sell it eventually. You'll still have your book and action figure though. They won't mint more of those.
They won't make more, but if it is anything like most MMO collector's editions, they will severely overproduce it, and you will still be able to find copies a couple years later, often at a steep discount.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I challenge people to name a single mmo that locked an entire race behind CE edition...and an MMO that locked a major social/grouping feature behind pre-orders. I double dog dare you to find me one.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.
If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....
It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing. The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment. Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.
We aren't talking about apartheid here. We are talking about video games. Get some perspective.
What I am saying is that any product is designed with a specific purpose in mind. If you try the product out, and it fulfills that purpose to your satisfaction, then it was money well spent. Even if the person who made and/or sold the product is the scuzziest deviant ever to walk the earth. You aren't going to drive these people out of business by standing on principle, because you are never going to get enough people to stand with you for your principle to matter to the bottom line. So as a practical matter the only thing you accomplish by refusing to give money to "bad" companies is depriving yourself of whatever enjoyment you would have received from their products.
So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy. Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter. You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them. Right...
This actually IS a big deal. These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok. This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry. It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment. A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".
I mean they'll sell it piecemeal in the cash shop, or they'll sell and upgrade package like Trion did, or they'll offer both options.
I know, I was referring to the portion of your comment about the physical perks.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I'd say its a knee jerk reaction from a lot of haters that had no intention of ever playing anyway trying to say See they lied. these same gamers make false statements like you have to pay extra for the race in any faction option which is incorrect as any pre-order will get that at no extra cost.
haters are gonna hate as its the in thing. Also some layers never want to pay anything for their entertainment preferring the cbe put onto others thus any subscription based MMO is gonna be talked down. Personally I have no trouble paying a subscription and if more money is put toward development of new content because some players are willing to buy mounts and stuff more power to it as long as theres a way to get these things in game via game play. (win/win)
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.
If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....
If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content? I believe that a lot of people would. You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.
If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content. If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.
So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy. Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter. You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them. Right...
This actually IS a big deal. These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok. This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry. It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment. A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".
Buy what you're told to buy? Who said that? I said buy what you expect you will enjoy.
You can swim against the tide all you want, just don't be surprised when you don't get anywhere. As for "significant harm," we are back to first world problems and lack of perspective. If you and your property have suffered no physical injury, you have not been significantly harmed.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I bought the digital imp. I am happy with my choice. I don't see the controversy. What I do see is the over all entitled mentality that rules the forums on this site.
As Madimorga stated, people think because they pay an amount they are entitled to everything. That could be true in other areas of a market but it hasn't always applied to games or gaming. In fact that mentality has been very detrimental to gaming on a whole with games losing any type of challenge. it has also lead to games being made that emphasize the "reward" over the game play. Now developers create an award and then make gameplay around it for you to do to get it. Thats how you get dailies for gold or tokens or faction so you can get the new uber sword. Its pathetic.
ESO has done something different. They have put the emphasis back on the gameplay and the reward is just an extra. Thats why you have so many entitled pukes who don't like the game. They have never known anything different than the WoW and its clones mentality.
If ESO stays the way it is, I will be giving them money just to let them know at least 1 person appreciates what they have done.
Just to clarify, I'm perfectly fine with people not buying the game over this. If someone thinks it's too costly to buy the most expensive edition and not worth playing the game without it, they shouldn't buy the game. Neither should someone who wants to make a stand against this particular set of bonus content.
MMOs are not essential goods and services. And because of this we players have a massive amount of power to vote with our wallets. If we really dislike something, we can refuse to pay for it, and we should.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I see a lot of people who belittle those who are against this move from Zenimax. They tell them to stop feeling entitled to anything.. I pity these people, who seemingly lay down and accept that companies will continue this cash grabbing. They say CE always worked this way, granting unique items to a limited group of people. Aye, that is true. But WoW's CE included only a in-game vanity pet. Everything else was real life, tangible items. Would you also have been so accepting if the Night Elfs had been an exclusive race, available only to those few who paid extra? In a game with a box price and subscription?
We should stop feeling entitled? The way I see it, we're only looking after the interests of the consumers and gamers, demanding that such development should not continue. If you want to let the bulldozer mow down your house that's your prerogative..
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.
I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!
F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy. Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter. You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them. Right...
This actually IS a big deal. These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok. This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry. It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment. A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".
Buy what you're told to buy? Who said that? I said buy what you expect you will enjoy.
You can swim against the tide all you want, just don't be surprised when you don't get anywhere. As for "significant harm," we are back to first world problems and lack of perspective. If you and your property have suffered no physical injury, you have not been significantly harmed.
Significant harm to a hobby I enjoy. I never said it would harm me, I said that it has serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment of my hobby. Nothing quite like context...
It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing. The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment. Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.
We aren't talking about apartheid here. We are talking about video games. Get some perspective.
What I am saying is that any product is designed with a specific purpose in mind. If you try the product out, and it fulfills that purpose to your satisfaction, then it was money well spent. Even if the person who made and/or sold the product is the scuzziest deviant ever to walk the earth. You aren't going to drive these people out of business by standing on principle, because you are never going to get enough people to stand with you for your principle to matter to the bottom line. So as a practical matter the only thing you accomplish by refusing to give money to "bad" companies is depriving yourself of whatever enjoyment you would have received from their products.
So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy. Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter. You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them. Right...
This actually IS a big deal. These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok. This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry. It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment. A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".
Is someone telling you what you must buy? They are giving you information. So now you can make an informed choice from the various options available to you. One of those options is to pass on the game. The locked race is a matter of the marketplace to decide the value of and while you might not like it there will be many who will pay for it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.
$20 is not getting nickel and dimed. That's getting twentied.
This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time. Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them. There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them. It is literally a different look for a player's avatar. It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.
Though, there will be microtransactions at some point. They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend. They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen. I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.
If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....
If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content? I believe that a lot of people would. You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.
If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content. If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.
That argument is just as illogical as me stating that since people agree that unique mounts are vanity items and not content that if developers removed all mounts from the game they haven't removed content. In the end they have gimped travel because now you have to walk everywhere.
You can take anything to extremes. That's not whats happening though.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.
$20 is not getting nickel and dimed. That's getting twentied.
This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time. Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them. There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them. It is literally a different look for a player's avatar. It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.
Though, there will be microtransactions at some point. They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend. They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen. I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.
I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!
F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.
No, my logic was simply stating that people are upset about something that's actually pretty common, based on when it's happening, not what's happening. A cosmetic item, that doesn't change game play is being offered for additional money, and because it's happening at launch instead of later people want to call it a controversy. Never mind that cosmetic items have existed in subscription game cash shops for a very, very long time. This isn't a controversy at all. This is a bunch of people who want to be upset about something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"
Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.
I've not read all the posts on this subject as it's clear there are good and bad cases for both sides of several arguments. However looking at this from a business prospective and from Zenimax's side If they choose to sell their game to anyone, then they can do that at whatever price they choose. (FACT) They have to recover their costs which they have invested to make this game which must be very high.
SO IF you are not happy that's cool too so don't buy it, but ffs stop moaning about it and move on!
IF however you feel that buying the CE gives you an advantage or someone else and you feel this is against your principles then again that's all cool and you entitled to your opinion and again say your bit and move on!
But until everyone has had the opportunity to try open beta that's when it will become relevant to discharge your anger about what's happening or will be in the game, until that time unless people are in the beta and know the answers to all the comments we will find out how or what effect this will have on our playing experience.
If people think that voicing their concerns about the price or other people buying their CE giving someone an advantage because they cannot afford or wont budge to buy it then it's beyond me why they are complaining at all, just move on as there are plenty of other games out there. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS GAME FULL STOP!!!
The constant hate for certain games will not prevent others from making their own decision and playing any game. People with money to spend on their hobby wont give a HOOT what you think they will just get their wallet out and pay to play the way they want and that's all that matters. If you cannot afford and feel they have the advantage then again stop moaning and go work some extra hours and get the addition you want. If you wont buy it because of principles then again later close the door behind you I'm not bothered.
This game is going to come out and it will come out as Zenimax wanted so you have to play it their way...Or no way!
Comments
It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing. The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment. Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.
Races do not have their own skill line. They have passives but no skill line. The only skill lines comes from the guilds , weapons and base class.
Its hard to trust zenimax.
They are afraid to call it an MMO, they can't make up their mind about how they want their factions, they are afraid of calling their adventure zones raiding, and at one point they were willing to release the game without adventure zones. Now they want to charge extra for a race like they were a f2p game.
If you call for sanity in the raging debate then the sane thing would be to tell everyone to wait with their preorders until NDA is dropped so people can give their honest opinion about the game and/or until people get in open beta to properly test it for themselves.
Question what you get instead of giving game publishers a blank check.
We aren't talking about apartheid here. We are talking about video games. Get some perspective.
What I am saying is that any product is designed with a specific purpose in mind. If you try the product out, and it fulfills that purpose to your satisfaction, then it was money well spent. Even if the person who made and/or sold the product is the scuzziest deviant ever to walk the earth. You aren't going to drive these people out of business by standing on principle, because you are never going to get enough people to stand with you for your principle to matter to the bottom line. So as a practical matter the only thing you accomplish by refusing to give money to "bad" companies is depriving yourself of whatever enjoyment you would have received from their products.
They won't make more, but if it is anything like most MMO collector's editions, they will severely overproduce it, and you will still be able to find copies a couple years later, often at a steep discount.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.
If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....
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So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy. Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter. You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them. Right...
This actually IS a big deal. These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok. This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry. It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment. A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".
I know, I was referring to the portion of your comment about the physical perks.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
It's not a secret. It's in the FAQ. The are selling an upgrade package.
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I'd say its a knee jerk reaction from a lot of haters that had no intention of ever playing anyway trying to say See they lied. these same gamers make false statements like you have to pay extra for the race in any faction option which is incorrect as any pre-order will get that at no extra cost.
haters are gonna hate as its the in thing. Also some layers never want to pay anything for their entertainment preferring the cbe put onto others thus any subscription based MMO is gonna be talked down. Personally I have no trouble paying a subscription and if more money is put toward development of new content because some players are willing to buy mounts and stuff more power to it as long as theres a way to get these things in game via game play. (win/win)
If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content? I believe that a lot of people would. You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.
If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content. If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.
Buy what you're told to buy? Who said that? I said buy what you expect you will enjoy.
You can swim against the tide all you want, just don't be surprised when you don't get anywhere. As for "significant harm," we are back to first world problems and lack of perspective. If you and your property have suffered no physical injury, you have not been significantly harmed.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Just to clarify, I'm perfectly fine with people not buying the game over this. If someone thinks it's too costly to buy the most expensive edition and not worth playing the game without it, they shouldn't buy the game. Neither should someone who wants to make a stand against this particular set of bonus content.
MMOs are not essential goods and services. And because of this we players have a massive amount of power to vote with our wallets. If we really dislike something, we can refuse to pay for it, and we should.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I see a lot of people who belittle those who are against this move from Zenimax. They tell them to stop feeling entitled to anything.. I pity these people, who seemingly lay down and accept that companies will continue this cash grabbing. They say CE always worked this way, granting unique items to a limited group of people. Aye, that is true. But WoW's CE included only a in-game vanity pet. Everything else was real life, tangible items. Would you also have been so accepting if the Night Elfs had been an exclusive race, available only to those few who paid extra? In a game with a box price and subscription?
We should stop feeling entitled? The way I see it, we're only looking after the interests of the consumers and gamers, demanding that such development should not continue. If you want to let the bulldozer mow down your house that's your prerogative..
By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.
I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!
F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Significant harm to a hobby I enjoy. I never said it would harm me, I said that it has serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment of my hobby. Nothing quite like context...
Is someone telling you what you must buy? They are giving you information. So now you can make an informed choice from the various options available to you. One of those options is to pass on the game. The locked race is a matter of the marketplace to decide the value of and while you might not like it there will be many who will pay for it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
$20 is not getting nickel and dimed. That's getting twentied.
This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time. Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them. There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them. It is literally a different look for a player's avatar. It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.
Though, there will be microtransactions at some point. They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend. They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen. I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That argument is just as illogical as me stating that since people agree that unique mounts are vanity items and not content that if developers removed all mounts from the game they haven't removed content. In the end they have gimped travel because now you have to walk everywhere.
You can take anything to extremes. That's not whats happening though.
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That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"
+1
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No, my logic was simply stating that people are upset about something that's actually pretty common, based on when it's happening, not what's happening. A cosmetic item, that doesn't change game play is being offered for additional money, and because it's happening at launch instead of later people want to call it a controversy. Never mind that cosmetic items have existed in subscription game cash shops for a very, very long time. This isn't a controversy at all. This is a bunch of people who want to be upset about something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.
PS. Listen to LizardBones. He gets it.
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I've not read all the posts on this subject as it's clear there are good and bad cases for both sides of several arguments. However looking at this from a business prospective and from Zenimax's side If they choose to sell their game to anyone, then they can do that at whatever price they choose. (FACT) They have to recover their costs which they have invested to make this game which must be very high.
SO IF you are not happy that's cool too so don't buy it, but ffs stop moaning about it and move on!
IF however you feel that buying the CE gives you an advantage or someone else and you feel this is against your principles then again that's all cool and you entitled to your opinion and again say your bit and move on!
But until everyone has had the opportunity to try open beta that's when it will become relevant to discharge your anger about what's happening or will be in the game, until that time unless people are in the beta and know the answers to all the comments we will find out how or what effect this will have on our playing experience.
If people think that voicing their concerns about the price or other people buying their CE giving someone an advantage because they cannot afford or wont budge to buy it then it's beyond me why they are complaining at all, just move on as there are plenty of other games out there. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS GAME FULL STOP!!!
The constant hate for certain games will not prevent others from making their own decision and playing any game. People with money to spend on their hobby wont give a HOOT what you think they will just get their wallet out and pay to play the way they want and that's all that matters. If you cannot afford and feel they have the advantage then again stop moaning and go work some extra hours and get the addition you want. If you wont buy it because of principles then again later close the door behind you I'm not bothered.
This game is going to come out and it will come out as Zenimax wanted so you have to play it their way...Or no way!
Asbo