Yeah a 40 second video was shown on their twitch channel earlier. Cool news for those that want it. Now all I want are chat bubbles.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
Key phrase being "for those that want it." I know of no one in game that was asking for this feature. The players that are into playing house will never be interested in a game like TOR so why waste the time and resources?
I liked playing SWTOR. My problem is that there was not many things to keep me coming back, and constantly playing it, but now this player housing is coming in it will certainly make me come back to the game, but for how long depends on its depth. However the devs stated around or before launch that this would not happen, but now it is. It now makes me wonder what else they plan on doing, and certainly kills my theory that the game is dead in the water. It also kills my idea that this is just a glorified single player game with multiplayer. Now with player housing SWTOR is now finally becoming a proper MMO, and losing the stigma of being a "single player" game.
If you are not interested in player housing it should be out of the way and you can avoid it, unlike SWG, but those that want it will keep game ticking along for longer.
It will make quite a few players happy , especially the RP types. Now superniceguy is even turning back to SWTOR , so they must be doing something right. Not that I wan't to change supaniceguy's mind on this but I fail to see that player housing makes an MMO more of an MMO , I just don't see it.
I played an MMO for years ( see sig ) and it had a room to place your trophy's and trinkets in , some that where animated and lots of sonic based ones. You could also open a shop ( side room ) and sell whatever you had looted/crafted , that was all fine and dandy. SWTOR on the other hand has a GTN and has no need for a shop , so not really sure SWTOR really needs houses. I'm glad people are happy though , go for it!
I would not have called PSU a MMO either - it is no where in the same league as WOW, it did not get many updates to enhance / change the game (in fact I can not remember any except adding new different mission maps from existing content), and you could only go into missions with very few people. SWTOR is still limited too with its instancing but not as bad as PSU, but now with player housing it is getting updated / expanded upon as other MMOs do. If PSU did not have housing I doubt that would have been added to PSU, as the game was not designed to be changed in that manner, and until now I thought SWTOR was the same. It is not just housing that will make it seem like a MMO, but what else there is to come - If they can add housing to the game then they should be able to do more to the game too.
Basically it depends on your perception of what a MMO is, a typical MMO to me is like WOW, SWG, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO etc with big worlds to explore and getting updates that expand the game with more features. Flashpoints for example to me are like DLC in a console game - not really updates that add more to the game, and games like Battlefield 4 or GTA Online can be MMO with lots of players online, they are not a typical MMO but single player game with a multiplayer mode.
PSU was more of an MMO than PSO2 is actually , even though I only played PSO2 for 3 weeks , it was obviously more like PSO . It had many updates and a huge boxed expansion , like all MMO's do. GO in missions with very few people ? It was 6 per party , that's more than a lot of missions in other MMO's and no not talking about 40 man raids or w/e. PSU was an advancement on PSO so player housing was on the list to add to it from early in it's conception.PSU's was very highly instanced ? you say , you had to travel through say a quest instance to get to new area's ( huge ) and at the start it was very tough to get there , but then they added quick travel type things , so after first getting somewhere you could then get back there at a later date. The housing in SWTOR shouldn't be too hard to implement , instanced apartments ? Pretty simple really , but we don't know what else might be involved , mini-game or w/e else. So it seems you thought SWTOR was going to be too hard to program further ? Bit of an odd thought process that really , the hero engine ( pre-alpha ) might be an ass to update / change / program but I'm sure it's downright easier than the Playstation 2 , for instance and as PSU was made on the PS2 first , then ported to PC and 360.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSU could not be updated because it was on DVD and did not install to HDD, so the core game could not be radically improved / expanded upon.
Missions in PSU could only be done in group, and the number depended on how many you wanted to group with, but in other MMOs many people could do the missions all at once, as many as the area could take (SWG could have infinite [as many as the server could take, ie no limited instances] although the more players the more lag there would be, but in SWTOR it something like 250? but chances are most people are scattered about the place and everyone being in the same spot especially hundreds is rare). In SWTOR it was a mix, missions through a green door are like PSU, but other world missions are the same as other MMOs, with the possiibility of many people (even hundreds) either fighting for the required NPC to kill or helping each other, and I think at the start of SWTOR there must have been about 50 people standing in front of that door of the jedi Council at the top of the stairs in the main building on Tython.
I did not mean that SWTOR was hard to program further, the impression I got from BW/EA is that they had no plans to add these sort of things, either the game could not do these things or they did not want the game to have these things, or with the many staff cut backs, it was not going to happen. Bioware are known mainly for single player games, and single player games once released do not have major overhauls done to them, but instead a sequel is created and any new features that they think of will enhance the game will be put into the sequels as they can not update the first game. eg Bioware did not modify Mass Effect 1 to add multiplayer, but they added multiplayer to Mass Effect 3.
Also when I brought up player housing being added in SWTOR, I just get responses telling me to quit complaining and accept the game as it is, as it will never happen, and nobody said that player housing was a possibility.
Going back to your previous post, SWG had a bazaar which is like the GTN but also had personal shops too. Having a shop is still needed as it gives a player to be a specialised trader, whereas just having something like GTN makes being a trader not so special. It will be like there as if there be no more shops, and only be ebay. In SWG certain crafters made a name for themselves and you would go to them because they are either reliable, convenient to travel to or because they made the best stuff.
PSU could not be updated because it was on DVD and did not install to HDD, so the core game could not be radically improved / expanded upon.
Missions in PSU could only be done in group, and the number depended on how many you wanted to group with, but in other MMOs many people could do the missions all at once, as many as the area could take (SWG could have infinite [as many as the server could take, ie no limited instances] although the more players the more lag there would be, but in SWTOR it something like 250? but chances are most people are scattered about the place and everyone being in the same spot especially hundreds is rare). In SWTOR it was a mix, missions through a green door are like PSU, but other world missions are the same as other MMOs, with the possiibility of many people (even hundreds) either fighting for the required NPC to kill or helping each other, and I think at the start of SWTOR there must have been about 50 people standing in front of that door of the jedi Council at the top of the stairs in the main building on Tython.
I did not mean that SWTOR was hard to program further, the impression I got from BW/EA is that they had no plans to add these sort of things, either the game could not do these things or they did not want the game to have these things, or with the many staff cut backs, it was not going to happen. Bioware are known mainly for single player games, and single player games once released do not have major overhauls done to them, but instead a sequel is created and any new features that they think of will enhance the game will be put into the sequels as they can not update the first game. eg Bioware did not modify Mass Effect 1 to add multiplayer, but they added multiplayer to Mass Effect 3.
Also when I brought up player housing being added in SWTOR, I just get responses telling me to quit complaining and accept the game as it is, as it will never happen, and nobody said that player housing was a possibility.
Going back to your previous post, SWG had a bazaar which is like the GTN but also had personal shops too. Having a shop is still needed as it gives a player to be a specialised trader, whereas just having something like GTN makes being a trader not so special. It will be like there as if there be no more shops, and only be ebay. In SWG certain crafters made a name for themselves and you would go to them because they are either reliable, convenient to travel to or because they made the best stuff.
I get what you mean now , the dvd and no HD on the PS2 held that sort of development back and you are correct. Shame Sony ditched the idea of having a HD on the PS2 for Europe. Obviously PSU was originally designed for the HD. Do you mean PSU's missions would be for 1 - 6 players ? Also other MMO's have open world missions , so lots of people fighting for that node. That was probably a plus for PSU in a way. Otherwise I get you.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
What I don't want to see is a door put where there was not one before and everyone walks through the same door to their house. That would be half ass as far as I am concerned.
I think it is reasonable for them to create an "instance" that grow with demand that looks like a neighborhood. The area can be reached through a ship or a speeder. IT does not matter all that much. Just a devoted area to housing. It should be easy to do right and it can grow as demand grows since I am sure it will be directly attached.
I just don't want to see a door pop up and then bam!!!! we all get a condo, for real money.
Well... look at where housing is likely to be:
Coruscant: You take a taxi everywhere as it is. You'll take a taxi which goes somewhere else, where you'll click on an instance node. Could be that you'll have to navigate a neighborhood(ala LotRO), or you'll go instantly to the interior of your home. We can only speculate.
Same with Dromund Kaas.
I'm pretty certain that everyone will click on a "door", the same "door", to get to the area where their home is. If you do or don't agree, my guess is no better than yours. But we'll see.
If it's anything like the ships, it's a joke. The ship is such a joke, they made bypasses to interacting with them to get to planets. They could better spend their time and money.
Yeah, I'm excited and hope this means we will get more functionality on our spaceships, as well as more tradeskills. We have always needed a lot more recipes and professions than we have...
More is always better, even if it can't be SWG, I pray it will at least be like Everquest 2 and that we will get more crafting...
Sony actually makes a lot of money off housing decor and selling prestige houses, so despite all you nay-sayers, it is a very smart idea for them to add housing to SWToR. They have to start selling a lot more of value in the cartel shop, although they should also still give us quest rewards and actual content to play through as well, they need to give us meta achievements like wow and trophies from raid zones like Everquest 2, and tie the housing into all player/guild events...
We should have crafting stations like Everquest 2, massive world events like Everquest 2, and so much more...
Bring back the glowsticks and ribbons from SWG?
At least there are a lot of awesome mounts now, we just need more in-game ways of getting cool mount/pets, like long quest chains and meta achievements... and many more world events!
Originally posted by BadOrb Yeah a 40 second video was shown on their twitch channel earlier. Cool news for those that want it. Now all I want are chat bubbles.
Originally posted by DocBrody Yo Dudes, we heard you like instances, so we created more instances within the instances, to let yo do more instanced stuff
That's weird I can get anywhere I want with maybe 1 or 2 instances....Maybe if you were up to date on the game you wouldn't make such uninformed statements.
Guess he's stuck in the pre-quick travel stations era.
When you had to run through orbital stations (no speeders allowed!) then zone into Corellia and finally zone into the Black Hole area each time you wanted to do dailies.
Yep, that's been fixed long ago. (thankfully, because it was a rather horrible system)
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
No solid information really? Nothing but the teaser?
bump.
I really need to know when it´s coming and how it will work exactly.
WIll it all be instanced or will there be new areas on each planet for non-instanced housing?
Mix of both?
It could really be awesome. Add a day/night change to the planets and SWTOR could finally become a winner.
Crafting.. OMG Crafting could FINALLY become a viable option if you can craft stuff for houses.
Mission drops and achievements:
Stuff like trophies and souveniers for your house! Lots or replay value for the class stories too if they add housing rewards to the missions.
Ideally, furnishings for housing would be split amongst the different crafting lines, but I fear that the more desirable items will be sold through the Cartel Market and the really cool housing stuff will be via Cartel Packs only. Bioware knows that housing will be a serious cash cow for the Cartel Market.
No solid information really? Nothing but the teaser?
bump.
I really need to know when it´s coming and how it will work exactly.
WIll it all be instanced or will there be new areas on each planet for non-instanced housing?
Mix of both?
It could really be awesome. Add a day/night change to the planets and SWTOR could finally become a winner.
Crafting.. OMG Crafting could FINALLY become a viable option if you can craft stuff for houses.
Mission drops and achievements:
Stuff like trophies and souveniers for your house! Lots or replay value for the class stories too if they add housing rewards to the missions.
Ideally, furnishings for housing would be split amongst the different crafting lines, but I fear that the more desirable items will be sold through the Cartel Market and the really cool housing stuff will be via Cartel Packs only. Bioware knows that housing will be a serious cash cow for the Cartel Market.
I'd hope for something to do for all crafting professions, plus mission rewards and loot drops.
Imagine a Sandpeople Dude dropping a Sofa or Wampa dropping a Wampa Fur carpet...
No solid information really? Nothing but the teaser?
bump.
I really need to know when it´s coming and how it will work exactly.
WIll it all be instanced or will there be new areas on each planet for non-instanced housing?
Mix of both?
It could really be awesome. Add a day/night change to the planets and SWTOR could finally become a winner.
Crafting.. OMG Crafting could FINALLY become a viable option if you can craft stuff for houses.
Mission drops and achievements:
Stuff like trophies and souveniers for your house! Lots or replay value for the class stories too if they add housing rewards to the missions.
From the announcement:
Customize Your Strongholds
Display trophies earned in battle, craft state-of-the-art furniture, and unlock all-new rewards across the game. Then customize your Strongholds with hundreds of unique decorations to express your personal style.
Live on Multiple Planets
Choose a prestigious apartment in the heart of your faction’s capital world, or live in style among the high-rollers of Nar Shaddaa or both – your Legacy can own multiple Strongholds!
Launch Your Guild Flagship
Rally your guild aboard your own Guild Flagship and join the renowned ranks of your faction’s starship fleet.
....ya umm....that seems pretty badass and well beyond what my expectations were when this first leaked...
This (from the QA) alone will make many people happy:
Q6: How will I be able to collect furniture and decorations in the game?
You will earn a set of starter decorations when you purchase your first Stronghold. Many decorations will be available on existing vendors throughout the game as new rewards for Reputations, PvP, Crew Skills, and more. While some of these decorations will be available for credits and other currencies, many will require components created by crafters.
This (from the QA) alone will make many people happy:
Q6: How will I be able to collect furniture and decorations in the game?
You will earn a set of starter decorations when you purchase your first Stronghold. Many decorations will be available on existing vendors throughout the game as new rewards for Reputations, PvP, Crew Skills, and more. While some of these decorations will be available for credits and other currencies, many will require components created by crafters.
Nice find. I hope all crafting professions will get some stuff to make, Biochem can make flowers /grin or Kolto tanks
This (from the QA) alone will make many people happy:
Q6: How will I be able to collect furniture and decorations in the game?
You will earn a set of starter decorations when you purchase your first Stronghold. Many decorations will be available on existing vendors throughout the game as new rewards for Reputations, PvP, Crew Skills, and more. While some of these decorations will be available for credits and other currencies, many will require components created by crafters.
The details you quoted plus:
Customize Your Strongholds
Display trophies earned in battle, craft state-of-the-art furniture, and unlock all-new rewards across the game. Then customize your Strongholds with hundreds of unique decorations to express your personal style.
Live on Multiple Planets
Choose a prestigious apartment in the heart of your faction’s capital world, or live in style among the high-rollers of Nar Shaddaa or both – your Legacy can own multiple Strongholds!
Launch Your Guild Flagship
Rally your guild aboard your own Guild Flagship and join the renowned ranks of your faction’s starship fleet.
I have to say, credit where it's due....
This implementation has already far surpassed what I expected....I may have to re-sub and check it out
This implementation has already far surpassed what I expected....I may have to re-sub and check it out
I would wait until you see player feedback from the PTS around May, or more content/leaks from Dulfy, unless you really want the cartel coin bonus to resub early. If you're not currently subbed, subbing now isn't going to get you any details quicker. Feel free to disregard this advice if you're going to make use of any other subscriber benefits though(levelling faster, free raid access, etc.)
This implementation has already far surpassed what I expected....I may have to re-sub and check it out
I would wait until you see player feedback from the PTS around May, or more content/leaks from Dulfy, unless you really want the cartel coin bonus to resub early. If you're not currently subbed, subbing now isn't going to get you any details quicker. Feel free to disregard this advice if you're going to make use of any other subscriber benefits though(levelling faster, free raid access, etc.)
Sound advice, cheers
I've not subbed to SWTOR since November and I'll probably leave it until around end of May to be honest, I have a feeling I won't be playing much other than DS2 between end of April and end of May (Plus the odd few hours on a certain EMU that I seem to get infractions for ever mentioning on this site )
I was going to let my sub go for a few months while I play a game not to be named, and get married in May. But because of the bonus for subbing like cc bonus and a three room house I'm keeping my sub. Not only will I get 2k for subbing plus the cc bonus for being a sub on top of my already banked cc (I never use them I buy everything from the gtn) but also the 3 room house. Why wouldn't you keep subbing?
You should absolutely ask for time cards from your guest list for your two preferred games. It'll be a lot better than the inevitable blenders and TV trays and other Bed Bath & Beyond crap
Comments
moo all
PSU could not be updated because it was on DVD and did not install to HDD, so the core game could not be radically improved / expanded upon.
Missions in PSU could only be done in group, and the number depended on how many you wanted to group with, but in other MMOs many people could do the missions all at once, as many as the area could take (SWG could have infinite [as many as the server could take, ie no limited instances] although the more players the more lag there would be, but in SWTOR it something like 250? but chances are most people are scattered about the place and everyone being in the same spot especially hundreds is rare). In SWTOR it was a mix, missions through a green door are like PSU, but other world missions are the same as other MMOs, with the possiibility of many people (even hundreds) either fighting for the required NPC to kill or helping each other, and I think at the start of SWTOR there must have been about 50 people standing in front of that door of the jedi Council at the top of the stairs in the main building on Tython.
I did not mean that SWTOR was hard to program further, the impression I got from BW/EA is that they had no plans to add these sort of things, either the game could not do these things or they did not want the game to have these things, or with the many staff cut backs, it was not going to happen. Bioware are known mainly for single player games, and single player games once released do not have major overhauls done to them, but instead a sequel is created and any new features that they think of will enhance the game will be put into the sequels as they can not update the first game. eg Bioware did not modify Mass Effect 1 to add multiplayer, but they added multiplayer to Mass Effect 3.
Also when I brought up player housing being added in SWTOR, I just get responses telling me to quit complaining and accept the game as it is, as it will never happen, and nobody said that player housing was a possibility.
Going back to your previous post, SWG had a bazaar which is like the GTN but also had personal shops too. Having a shop is still needed as it gives a player to be a specialised trader, whereas just having something like GTN makes being a trader not so special. It will be like there as if there be no more shops, and only be ebay. In SWG certain crafters made a name for themselves and you would go to them because they are either reliable, convenient to travel to or because they made the best stuff.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
I get what you mean now , the dvd and no HD on the PS2 held that sort of development back and you are correct. Shame Sony ditched the idea of having a HD on the PS2 for Europe. Obviously PSU was originally designed for the HD. Do you mean PSU's missions would be for 1 - 6 players ? Also other MMO's have open world missions , so lots of people fighting for that node. That was probably a plus for PSU in a way. Otherwise I get you.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Well... look at where housing is likely to be:
Coruscant: You take a taxi everywhere as it is. You'll take a taxi which goes somewhere else, where you'll click on an instance node. Could be that you'll have to navigate a neighborhood(ala LotRO), or you'll go instantly to the interior of your home. We can only speculate.
Same with Dromund Kaas.
I'm pretty certain that everyone will click on a "door", the same "door", to get to the area where their home is. If you do or don't agree, my guess is no better than yours. But we'll see.
Save this spot.
Yeah, I'm excited and hope this means we will get more functionality on our spaceships, as well as more tradeskills. We have always needed a lot more recipes and professions than we have...
More is always better, even if it can't be SWG, I pray it will at least be like Everquest 2 and that we will get more crafting...
Sony actually makes a lot of money off housing decor and selling prestige houses, so despite all you nay-sayers, it is a very smart idea for them to add housing to SWToR. They have to start selling a lot more of value in the cartel shop, although they should also still give us quest rewards and actual content to play through as well, they need to give us meta achievements like wow and trophies from raid zones like Everquest 2, and tie the housing into all player/guild events...
We should have crafting stations like Everquest 2, massive world events like Everquest 2, and so much more...
Bring back the glowsticks and ribbons from SWG?
At least there are a lot of awesome mounts now, we just need more in-game ways of getting cool mount/pets, like long quest chains and meta achievements... and many more world events!
Too little too late for me.
Should have been in the game 2 years ago.
Guess he's stuck in the pre-quick travel stations era.
When you had to run through orbital stations (no speeders allowed!) then zone into Corellia and finally zone into the Black Hole area each time you wanted to do dailies.
Yep, that's been fixed long ago. (thankfully, because it was a rather horrible system)
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
How will housing be implemented?
No solid information really? Nothing but the teaser?
bump.
I really need to know when it´s coming and how it will work exactly.
WIll it all be instanced or will there be new areas on each planet for non-instanced housing?
Mix of both?
It could really be awesome. Add a day/night change to the planets and SWTOR could finally become a winner.
Crafting.. OMG Crafting could FINALLY become a viable option if you can craft stuff for houses.
Mission drops and achievements:
Stuff like trophies and souveniers for your house! Lots or replay value for the class stories too if they add housing rewards to the missions.
Ideally, furnishings for housing would be split amongst the different crafting lines, but I fear that the more desirable items will be sold through the Cartel Market and the really cool housing stuff will be via Cartel Packs only. Bioware knows that housing will be a serious cash cow for the Cartel Market.
I'd hope for something to do for all crafting professions, plus mission rewards and loot drops.
Imagine a Sandpeople Dude dropping a Sofa or Wampa dropping a Wampa Fur carpet...
From the announcement:
Customize Your Strongholds
Display trophies earned in battle, craft state-of-the-art furniture, and unlock all-new rewards across the game. Then customize your Strongholds with hundreds of unique decorations to express your personal style.
Live on Multiple Planets
Choose a prestigious apartment in the heart of your faction’s capital world, or live in style among the high-rollers of Nar Shaddaa or both – your Legacy can own multiple Strongholds!
Launch Your Guild Flagship
Rally your guild aboard your own Guild Flagship and join the renowned ranks of your faction’s starship fleet.
....ya umm....that seems pretty badass and well beyond what my expectations were when this first leaked...
This (from the QA) alone will make many people happy:
Q6: How will I be able to collect furniture and decorations in the game?
You will earn a set of starter decorations when you purchase your first Stronghold. Many decorations will be available on existing vendors throughout the game as new rewards for Reputations, PvP, Crew Skills, and more. While some of these decorations will be available for credits and other currencies, many will require components created by crafters.
Nice find. I hope all crafting professions will get some stuff to make, Biochem can make flowers /grin or Kolto tanks
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
The details you quoted plus:
Customize Your Strongholds
Display trophies earned in battle, craft state-of-the-art furniture, and unlock all-new rewards across the game. Then customize your Strongholds with hundreds of unique decorations to express your personal style.
Live on Multiple Planets
Choose a prestigious apartment in the heart of your faction’s capital world, or live in style among the high-rollers of Nar Shaddaa or both – your Legacy can own multiple Strongholds!
Launch Your Guild Flagship
Rally your guild aboard your own Guild Flagship and join the renowned ranks of your faction’s starship fleet.
I have to say, credit where it's due....
This implementation has already far surpassed what I expected....I may have to re-sub and check it out
I would wait until you see player feedback from the PTS around May, or more content/leaks from Dulfy, unless you really want the cartel coin bonus to resub early. If you're not currently subbed, subbing now isn't going to get you any details quicker. Feel free to disregard this advice if you're going to make use of any other subscriber benefits though(levelling faster, free raid access, etc.)
Sound advice, cheers
I've not subbed to SWTOR since November and I'll probably leave it until around end of May to be honest, I have a feeling I won't be playing much other than DS2 between end of April and end of May
(Plus the odd few hours on a certain EMU that I seem to get infractions for ever mentioning on this site 
)
You should absolutely ask for time cards from your guest list for your two preferred games. It'll be a lot better than the inevitable blenders and TV trays and other Bed Bath & Beyond crap
LOL, Awesome.
I'd always assumed my ship is what they considered player housing.........up until now that is.
Too little, too late, too bad.
(And who cares? TOR had its shot and missed.)
Sounds great.
but
IF i ever install this game again i will pay them monthly fee and play on private server.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
I do.. player housing is always a welcome addition. And TOR had its shot at what exactly? you mean in pleasing you? well in that case no loss really.