I'll give them a lot of leeway because there was a lot they didn't know. Still you do but have to be a student of humanity to know that if a service is useful and rare it will be sold.
Again same with root. If I give you a spell to root and a spell to nuke then when you first root and then nuke that is working as intended. They must have known that.
D o we e can disagree but missy things in your list including soloing I think were planned.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
When I see posts like this, I reflect on what made gaming so great in the early UO / EQ days, and it was my early exposure to fantasy novels, a vivid imagination to fill in the gaps where computer graphics left off, and a keen interest to mingle with others that shared these interests in a community-based venue.
I was also a big fan of single-player RPGs for the computer and the console, and I was a HUGE fan of the Ultima franchise. I can't even fathom how many "hours played" I clocked on single-player Ultima titles.
Those were wonder years backed by a love for all things "nerdy" and fantastic. Opening up your cloth maps to find Moon Gates, or your spell books to find out which reagents you needed for this spell or that... God, those were cool times.
The treasure troves of wonder and excitement that we all poured into those early years is something I think we all miss, because they were held aloft by vivid imaginations and a passion that you just don't see in the younger gamers of today. You HAD to use your imagination in those days, C'mon! Did someone say Commodore™ 64 sprite-based graphics?
This is what made it necessary for some MMORPGs to include RP servers, and even those are fading as newer players come in with a skewed perception of what it means to "role play", thus ruining the experience for others that found an enjoyment in those environments.
The gaming landscape has changed, the community landscape has changed, and all you can hope to do is find a way to change along with it, or seek other alternatives for your virtual enjoyment.
If I were to put my finger on a couple of things that I fondly remember about UO and EQ, it was that the environments seemed vast, dangerous, and unpredictable (especially at night), and that if I wanted to strengthen an ability or excel at a skill that I truly coveted, I had to continuously work at that skill and gradually hone it to a level of desired expertise.
I remember trying to learn different languages in EQ, become more proficient at new schools of magic, and in UO I remember trying my luck at taming different beasts in the hopes of taming my own mount. I remember riding into town on my lame ass Ostard, while some experienced S.O.B. came rolling on by with their winged dragon. Bastards! (I was 'jelly', I know )
These are things I don't think game developers take into account anymore; adding true challenge, yet finding a way to make it an enjoyable and uniquely rewarding experience to the individual as opposed to everyone that happens to be playing the same class.
It's all been boiled down into repeatable raid encounters with gimmicky mechanics, an over-dependence on the "MMO Holy Trinity", and a rehash of some of the game-on-rails features made popular by World of Warcraft and every MMO that tries to subtly use the same formula while calling itself a "new" experience.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I'll give them a lot of leeway because there was a lot they didn't know. Still you do but have to be a student of humanity to know that if a service is useful and rare it will be sold.
Again same with root. If I give you a spell to root and a spell to nuke then when you first root and then nuke that is working as intended. They must have known that.
D o we e can disagree but missy things in your list including soloing I think were planned.
There is one major flaw if your idea that they intended for people to solo. You couldn't stand up to mobs in melee at all solo. That's why classes like the Ranger I played couldn't solo past a certain level even with roots and healing. No melee class except Shadow Knight (fear/snare) and Paladin (Heal) could solo at all. Even the Paladin couldn't really solo. If the dev had intended for the game to have solo it would have had made it so melee classes could solo. They wouldn't have had mobs that output many times the damage of the same level player. They wouldn't have people die from mobs in a matter of hits in most cases if you weren't trying to kill a mob that was light blue (many levels below you). Basically it wasn't intended. The roots/snares and other utility spells were simply there for stopping mobs from running away in groups. Most of it was copied almost blatantly from D&D 2nd edition with some modifications. You can look at the D&D second edition classes and their spells and look at the Everquest second edition classes and their spells/abilities. They are very similar. The difference being no one really wanted to solo in D&D. Maybe the devs never expected people who were playing an online D&D style game to want to solo.
OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.
It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.
OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.
It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.
And THIS ^ representation of today's gaming community, OP, is why you miss the "old days". I think this poster was lucky that the built-in spell checker was MOSTLY on duty. How does one "ignore the back", anyway? Is that like a 'massage' reference? Silvermember must give great Happy Endings, hence the name.
OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.
It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.
And THIS ^ representation of today's gaming community, OP, is why you miss the "old days". I think this poster was lucky that the built-in spell checker was MOSTLY on duty. How does one "ignore the back", anyway? Is that like a 'massage' reference? Silvermember must give great Happy Endings, hence the name.
I also think it was a product of the time. Yes new experiences are memorable, but none of today's MMOs are new experiences. They are something built on from the past. Everyone today knows what an MMO is and what it's about. When we were playing an MMO it was like getting one of the first bikes or getting one of the first skateboards. No one new what they were about or what could be done with them. Not even the developers who made them. I'm sure the person who invented skateboards didn't envision kids skating down rails or going into tubes. That's something you can't really replicate because it's already been done and the developers really prevent you from creating anything new today. Even if you could create something new what would you create? I think most thinks have already been thought of and done by the people who played the original few MMOs.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I remember my first trip from Qeynos to Freeport. It was quite a nerve racking journey. In fact anywhere in the game I went that I hadn't been before and even many that I had already were fairly dangerous. Going the path that took you past RunnyEye to Misty Thicket was the safest bet, but very dangerous with all those Minotaurs, Evil Eyes, and Goblins. Then there was the Highpass Hold. That place was a nightmare for low level players to get through IMO. The Karana's and Commonlands were even dangerous with Giants, Lions, Griffins, the one Shadow Knight in east Common Lands, and then another Shadow Knight in west Common Lands (both high level). I never much went to Lower Guk because I had to faction with the Trolls or Ogres. Sometimes I went to North and South Ro. I mostly hung around anywhere else. I killed lots of Giants at the Giant Hill. I killed lots of Orcs in the Lesser Faydark. I turned into a wolf and visited the Brownies in Lesser Faydark. I remember getting lost in Greater Faydark and West Karana's a lot of times. It's hard to remember, but I think there were actually four Karana's when I think about it. I believe there was North, South, East, and West. West was near Qeynos I believe. North was near Beholder Maze and HighPass? There was a nice camp spot somewhere in the East or West I think. It's difficult to remember now. There were a lot of Aviaks (Bird People) there.
If we were having this convo in OOC, I'm sure someone in EQ would tell us to take it to tells. EQ is so cool. To think I spent very little time in Rathe mountains (where Giant hill is, I think?), and you spent most of your time there. People can spend vast amounts of hours doing different things and never cross paths. /waves from Lower Guk. Tons of fun to be had there; you should check it out (but not on live). Although camps are probably taken; I had similar issue when playing there.
Regarding your recent posts, may I quote Mark Twain? Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Originally posted by Vhayne ...I would absolutely LOVE another game like EQ. But it has to be just like EQ. The system dynamics that EQ had, like enabling you to kite mobs, or buff other players with powerful, long lasting buffs. Twinking, powerleveling. It was the system that allowed us to do these things. There were slight holes or cracks, that could be exploited to enable you to have a lot of fun. Nothing too crazy, as it was still difficult. Example: the system has an aggroed mob chase you endlessly until you either kill it, or zone. Most mobs ran faster than players. Snaring a mob would make them run slower. While SoW would make you run faster. Add all of these together, and you now have KITING. Realistic? Doesn't matter, you're playing a freaking game. But it was fun still. Give me a game JUST like EQ with newer graphics and added technology, while still retaining all I said above, and I'll be a happy man.
/agreed. IN fact, just give me 2000 EQ properly supported and I would absolutely still be playing. People should ask themselves, would they want to rewatch their favorite movie if it was different every time through? I doubt it. Such is the case with EQ. Every time you go to play it, something was made easier or more convenient. The game is literally ten times easier than at launch. No I'm not talking end-game; no idea there. I said "at launch" which means level one, not raiding at max level with max gear.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Flyte27 ...Rangers were good for roleplay, but got all their spells way to late to be of much use. They were probably the worst class in terms of being good at anything. I just like the idea of being a Ranger.
Rangers were (are?) serious DPS. Always happy to have one in the group. For a history of Rangers (published in 2006), read this pdf that I saved from the internet black hole and re-posted on my site.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.
It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.
And THIS ^ representation of today's gaming community, OP, is why you miss the "old days". I think this poster was lucky that the built-in spell checker was MOSTLY on duty. How does one "ignore the back", anyway? Is that like a 'massage' reference? Silvermember must give great Happy Endings, hence the name.
WOW. A single typo and you drudge out the "kids these days" spiel. He clearly was trying to say "ignore the bad". I can kinda understand not liking the run-on sentences and generally awkward sentence structure but you had to get picky about a single, understandable typo.
Did you see that the OP said "now adays" in his first paragraph and then used "experiances" twice in a later section? You must think the OP is a drooling idiot.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.
Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose. They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash. It was just something to help people get around. They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs. Kiting wasn't intended. Those were all things to help when grouping with other people. Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own. The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended. They were created via the player base. All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players. They weren't there originally when picking a class. You were generally expected to group in the game period. Soloing was an unintended thing.
You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little. It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike. Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas. People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented. Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players. The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible. Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ.
The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened. They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee.
Actually it's more like giving someone a bike and then they started doing all kinds of crazy tricks with the bike or taking a scooter, breaking the handle off, and started to do crazy tricks on it (skateboard).
Actually the devs didn't anticipate any of what happened. It was pretty obvious as they tried to put a stop to a lot of it as the game progressed and even implemented things like the auction house.
In a themepark there is no creativity, there is merely exploitation... thus your skater analogy ends with this:
In a properly build sandbox there's a chance of averting such a fate but even so the amount of fizzled out sandboxes (too much control from the devs) or that pretty much derpxploded (too little control, EVE for whatever is worth manages a balance here) is great... it takes a right mix of developer intuition, player creativity and gameplay flexibility to get the spark required for a game to come alive.
That video makes no sense. A skateboard crashing into something? There are always bumps and bruises when trying something of that nature, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about. I already listed many of the ways that the players were creative in EQ. I guess it is not a themepark in that case. Maybe it's not a sandbox, but it had lots of tools for being creative. For instance players came up with the idea in EQ of rolling for loot. That was not an intended mechanic. This was again stolen by the developers and made into a non interactive experience.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
Originally posted by JeroKane Have People already forgotten about how EverQuest 2 was just that at launch?- Massive Death XP penalties, including shared debt XP when running in Groups/Dungeons.- Forced grouping all over. There was very little solo content. Most was Group oriented.- High Level of Challenge / difficulty.All stuff that worked against EQ2 right off the bat and made them loose subs faster than you can count. :(Especially the Whole shared debt XP turned into a debacle that was extremely toxic against the community.It was terrible. One unlucky PUG Group and you spend several hours grinding your debt XP away afterwards. An entire night gaming wasted.The result was that People ended up on blacklists left and right for making a mistake. People scared to Group. And with the vast majority of content being Group content, this created a CATCH22 situation that frustrated people into unsubbing. People just don't want these kind of games anymore today. They want to play games for fun, not as second job with fetish like punishment systems. I am all for more Challenge and Group oriented content. But Challenge / difficulty doesn't have to translate in heavy punishment systems.
EQ2 came out at a terrible time. All the people who wanted to play an EQ type game were still playing EQ. That's like serving dinner an hour after lunch and wondering why no one ate the food. Plus WoW launched at the exact same time, lol. Double whammy; EQ2 was doomed from the start.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Flyte27 I remember my first trip from Qeynos to Freeport. It was quite a nerve racking journey. In fact anywhere in the game I went that I hadn't been before and even many that I had already were fairly dangerous. Going the path that took you past RunnyEye to Misty Thicket was the safest bet, but very dangerous with all those Minotaurs, Evil Eyes, and Goblins. Then there was the Highpass Hold. That place was a nightmare for low level players to get through IMO. The Karana's and Commonlands were even dangerous with Giants, Lions, Griffins, the one Shadow Knight in east Common Lands, and then another Shadow Knight in west Common Lands (both high level). I never much went to Lower Guk because I had to faction with the Trolls or Ogres. Sometimes I went to North and South Ro. I mostly hung around anywhere else. I killed lots of Giants at the Giant Hill. I killed lots of Orcs in the Lesser Faydark. I turned into a wolf and visited the Brownies in Lesser Faydark. I remember getting lost in Greater Faydark and West Karana's a lot of times. It's hard to remember, but I think there were actually four Karana's when I think about it. I believe there was North, South, East, and West. West was near Qeynos I believe. North was near Beholder Maze and HighPass? There was a nice camp spot somewhere in the East or West I think. It's difficult to remember now. There were a lot of Aviaks (Bird People) there.
If we were having this convo in OOC, I'm sure someone in EQ would tell us to take it to tells. EQ is so cool. To think I spent very little time in Rathe mountains (where Giant hill is, I think?), and you spent most of your time there. People can spend vast amounts of hours doing different things and never cross paths. /waves from Lower Guk. Tons of fun to be had there; you should check it out (but not on live). Although camps are probably taken; I had similar issue when playing there.
Regarding your recent posts, may I quote Mark Twain? “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
Originally posted by Vhayne ...I would absolutely LOVE another game like EQ. But it has to be just like EQ. The system dynamics that EQ had, like enabling you to kite mobs, or buff other players with powerful, long lasting buffs. Twinking, powerleveling. It was the system that allowed us to do these things. There were slight holes or cracks, that could be exploited to enable you to have a lot of fun. Nothing too crazy, as it was still difficult. Example: the system has an aggroed mob chase you endlessly until you either kill it, or zone. Most mobs ran faster than players. Snaring a mob would make them run slower. While SoW would make you run faster. Add all of these together, and you now have KITING. Realistic? Doesn't matter, you're playing a freaking game. But it was fun still.
Give me a game JUST like EQ with newer graphics and added technology, while still retaining all I said above, and I'll be a happy man.
/agreed. IN fact, just give me 2000 EQ properly supported and I would absolutely still be playing. People should ask themselves, would they want to rewatch their favorite movie if it was different every time through? I doubt it. Such is the case with EQ. Every time you go to play it, something was made easier or more convenient. The game is literally ten times easier than at launch. No I'm not talking end-game; no idea there. I said "at launch" which means level one, not raiding at max level with max gear.
I remember seeing a giant in the commonlands for the first time. I thought it would be great to defeat something so strong. People were dying to it in a few hits. Little did I realize that it would be a long time until I actually defeated one solo. Even when they became green cons I had trouble kiting them down. They had crazy amounts of health and hit like a truck. There was no hope as a melee without healing until the expansions came out. They were good money though.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.
Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose. They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash. It was just something to help people get around. They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs. Kiting wasn't intended. Those were all things to help when grouping with other people. Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own. The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended. They were created via the player base. All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players. They weren't there originally when picking a class. You were generally expected to group in the game period. Soloing was an unintended thing.
You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little. It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike. Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas. People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented. Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players. The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible. Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ.
The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened. They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee.
Actually it's more like giving someone a bike and then they started doing all kinds of crazy tricks with the bike or taking a scooter, breaking the handle off, and started to do crazy tricks on it (skateboard).
Actually the devs didn't anticipate any of what happened. It was pretty obvious as they tried to put a stop to a lot of it as the game progressed and even implemented things like the auction house.
In a themepark there is no creativity, there is merely exploitation... thus your skater analogy ends with this:
In a properly build sandbox there's a chance of averting such a fate but even so the amount of fizzled out sandboxes (too much control from the devs) or that pretty much derpxploded (too little control, EVE for whatever is worth manages a balance here) is great... it takes a right mix of developer intuition, player creativity and gameplay flexibility to get the spark required for a game to come alive.
That video makes no sense. A skateboard crashing into something? There are always bumps and bruises when trying something of that nature, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about. I already listed many of the ways that the players were creative in EQ. I guess it is not a themepark in that case. Maybe it's not a sandbox, but it had lots of tools for being creative. For instance players came up with the idea in EQ of rolling for loot. That was not an intended mechanic. This was again stolen by the developers and made into a non interactive experience.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
The MMOs today are better in what way? Generally the devs did a not so good job of implementing what the players themselves created. Perhaps they did bring it upon themselves, but that doesn't mean today's MMOs are better. I could take a nape while playing through an MMO today. If that is better to most people perhaps you are right. If basically having nothing to do in game but quest level, PvP in instances, group in instance, or raid in instances without the ability to be creative is what makes games today fun for most people then they can have them IMO. I fail to see how these games are better in anyway. The only thing they seem better at is ripping people off in terms of taking their money IMO.
I played Eve for a few months back in 2003. Know what I remember most? Profanity. Next, was that you could fight a "lesser" ship and get pwned while barely scratching your enemy. I also prefer my avatars to have two eyes, ears, etc; not one nose, two wings, and a tail. Furthermore, I enjoy terrain rather than endless textures. Eve's economy is pretty phenomenal and I wish one like that could be setup in a modern fantasy MMO. Not hating on Eve; in fact my character is still running around there; but it's not my cup of tea. If they reeled in the profanity, I might be more inclined to play.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.
Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose. They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash. It was just something to help people get around. They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs. Kiting wasn't intended. Those were all things to help when grouping with other people. Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own. The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended. They were created via the player base. All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players. They weren't there originally when picking a class. You were generally expected to group in the game period. Soloing was an unintended thing.
You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little. It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike. Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas. People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented. Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players. The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible. Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ.
The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened. They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee.
Actually it's more like giving someone a bike and then they started doing all kinds of crazy tricks with the bike or taking a scooter, breaking the handle off, and started to do crazy tricks on it (skateboard).
Actually the devs didn't anticipate any of what happened. It was pretty obvious as they tried to put a stop to a lot of it as the game progressed and even implemented things like the auction house.
In a themepark there is no creativity, there is merely exploitation... thus your skater analogy ends with this:
In a properly build sandbox there's a chance of averting such a fate but even so the amount of fizzled out sandboxes (too much control from the devs) or that pretty much derpxploded (too little control, EVE for whatever is worth manages a balance here) is great... it takes a right mix of developer intuition, player creativity and gameplay flexibility to get the spark required for a game to come alive.
That video makes no sense. A skateboard crashing into something? There are always bumps and bruises when trying something of that nature, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about. I already listed many of the ways that the players were creative in EQ. I guess it is not a themepark in that case. Maybe it's not a sandbox, but it had lots of tools for being creative. For instance players came up with the idea in EQ of rolling for loot. That was not an intended mechanic. This was again stolen by the developers and made into a non interactive experience.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
The MMOs today are better in what way? Generally the devs did a not so good job of implementing what the players themselves created. Perhaps they did bring it upon themselves, but that doesn't mean today's MMOs are better. I could take a nape while playing through an MMO today. If that is better to most people perhaps you are right. If basically having nothing to do in game but quest level, PvP in instances, group in instance, or raid in instances without the ability to be creative is what makes games today fun for most people then they can have them IMO. I fail to see how these games are better in anyway. The only thing they seem better at is ripping people off in terms of taking their money IMO.
And what pray tell did you do in EQ in the past? Grind/quest to level, PVP (in WoW, donno about EQ), tried taking on legendary creatures in their lairs (instances before the devs got feedback that people would steal each other's loot/kill and bragging rights that way). What you hate is what you loved once because what you loved was something you were discovering, now it is something implemented and refined beyond the systems the players jury rigged in the hole where one day it would be placed.
They are better for their purpose but you dislike them because of it, because they do not require creativity anymore and as I said try sandboxes, sandparks, any game where creativity is required, you will sojourn a long way in today's choice plentiful market but you will find your place in time and your new adventure. Just stop being bitter about things, it is what it is, games evolve, you have also evolved as a person, follow that evolution as I have, I left EVE some 6 months ago, I may be back to it in a year or two but for now it is behind me and I don't know if it will ever make another chapter in the future but I did take from those adventures, those stories, both friends and purpose in my gaming: I look for what may let me be creative, may let me be me without class confines or with as loose confines as possible (capped free form skill system). Define what you want in essence not in form and go hunting because the past won't come back alive again though you may relive it from time to time in your memories you must always move forward.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.
Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose. They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash. It was just something to help people get around. They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs. Kiting wasn't intended. Those were all things to help when grouping with other people. Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own. The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended. They were created via the player base. All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players. They weren't there originally when picking a class. You were generally expected to group in the game period. Soloing was an unintended thing.
You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little. It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike. Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas. People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented. Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players. The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible. Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ.
The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened. They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee.
Actually it's more like giving someone a bike and then they started doing all kinds of crazy tricks with the bike or taking a scooter, breaking the handle off, and started to do crazy tricks on it (skateboard).
Actually the devs didn't anticipate any of what happened. It was pretty obvious as they tried to put a stop to a lot of it as the game progressed and even implemented things like the auction house.
In a themepark there is no creativity, there is merely exploitation... thus your skater analogy ends with this:
In a properly build sandbox there's a chance of averting such a fate but even so the amount of fizzled out sandboxes (too much control from the devs) or that pretty much derpxploded (too little control, EVE for whatever is worth manages a balance here) is great... it takes a right mix of developer intuition, player creativity and gameplay flexibility to get the spark required for a game to come alive.
That video makes no sense. A skateboard crashing into something? There are always bumps and bruises when trying something of that nature, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about. I already listed many of the ways that the players were creative in EQ. I guess it is not a themepark in that case. Maybe it's not a sandbox, but it had lots of tools for being creative. For instance players came up with the idea in EQ of rolling for loot. That was not an intended mechanic. This was again stolen by the developers and made into a non interactive experience.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
The MMOs today are better in what way? Generally the devs did a not so good job of implementing what the players themselves created. Perhaps they did bring it upon themselves, but that doesn't mean today's MMOs are better. I could take a nape while playing through an MMO today. If that is better to most people perhaps you are right. If basically having nothing to do in game but quest level, PvP in instances, group in instance, or raid in instances without the ability to be creative is what makes games today fun for most people then they can have them IMO. I fail to see how these games are better in anyway. The only thing they seem better at is ripping people off in terms of taking their money IMO.
And what pray tell did you do in EQ in the past? Grind/quest to level, PVP (in WoW, donno about EQ), tried taking on legendary creatures in their lairs (instances before the devs got feedback that people would steal each other's loot/kill and bragging rights that way). What you hate is what you loved once because what you loved was something you were discovering, now it is something implemented and refined beyond the systems the players jury rigged in the hole where one day it would be placed.
They are better for their purpose but you dislike them because of it, because they do not require creativity anymore and as I said try sandboxes, sandparks, any game where creativity is required, you will sojourn a long way in today's choice plentiful market but you will find your place in time and your new adventure. Just stop being bitter about things, it is what it is, games evolve, you have also evolved as a person, follow that evolution as I have, I left EVE some 6 months ago, I may be back to it in a year or two but for now it is behind me and I don't know if it will ever make another chapter in the future but I did take from those adventures, those stories, both friends and purpose in my gaming: I look for what may let me be creative, may let me be me without class confines or with as loose confines as possible (capped free form skill system). Define what you want in essence not in form and go hunting because the past won't come back alive again though you may relive it from time to time in your memories you must always move forward.
This is extremely disturbing to me, I dont think anyone should be forced to abandon their likes/dislikes because "Others have moved on."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with appreciating what was widely considered a classic video game and MMO. There is also nothing wrong with wanting a bit of fan-pleasing and hoping to receive an updated version of such a classic game.
Think about all the Hollywood movies that get remade on a yearly, hell, monthly basis that are literally done as a fan service. We have 4 Punisher reboots, how many Spiderman? Even Teen Wolf got remade, Im sure the market for Teen-Wolf was less than the market for people wanting an updated EQ.
So again, there is no reason to demean others choices, likes/dislikes, and tell them to "move on".
The object of having this whole discussion was to show that there is a niche group which still appreciates the type of game EQ was. Ive already accomplished my goal despite the backlash from people who have a fundamental difference in thinking about the subject.
The original EQ was just such a classic Roleplaying Game. When you look at how MMO's are built now adays, most just dont have that classic Roleplaying feel to them. They try to throw everything at the player too fast, and force-feed this idea that the player is a hero from the very start of the game.
I'd play/pay £50 a month to play original EQ with modern graphics. Sounds great.
I still go ball and play it. I like restarting characters. .. actually in all mmos. When I get about halfway I'm get pretty bored with them. Game as it is now with better just building better graphics and flight I'd take. If I could choose my own skills I might never leave.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by JeroKane Have People already forgotten about how EverQuest 2 was just that at launch?
- Massive Death XP penalties, including shared debt XP when running in Groups/Dungeons.
- Forced grouping all over. There was very little solo content. Most was Group oriented.
- High Level of Challenge / difficulty.
All stuff that worked against EQ2 right off the bat and made them loose subs faster than you can count.
Especially the Whole shared debt XP turned into a debacle that was extremely toxic against the community.
It was terrible. One unlucky PUG Group and you spend several hours grinding your debt XP away afterwards. An entire night gaming wasted.
The result was that People ended up on blacklists left and right for making a mistake. People scared to Group. And with the vast majority of content being Group content, this created a CATCH22 situation that frustrated people into unsubbing.
People just don't want these kind of games anymore today. They want to play games for fun, not as second job with fetish like punishment systems.
I am all for more Challenge and Group oriented content. But Challenge / difficulty doesn't have to translate in heavy punishment systems.
It is quite amazing what people find enjoyable. All those things you listed were the reason I played these games and why I dont have a current game to play. You see playing for 8 hours just to die and lose all the xp you gained during that 8 hour session a waste of time. I see playing a watered down mmo that one can level to max on a free weekend and then quit two months later as a waste of time. These games were never about action 24/7, players knew that it took time and effort to get things done. You were living in a world not logging in for a quick lobby game. Character develoment takes time and was rewarding. Somewhere down the line they lost sight of what this genre was and now it is unrecognizable.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.
Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose. They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash. It was just something to help people get around. They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs. Kiting wasn't intended. Those were all things to help when grouping with other people. Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own. The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended. They were created via the player base. All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players. They weren't there originally when picking a class. You were generally expected to group in the game period. Soloing was an unintended thing.
You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little. It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike. Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas. People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented. Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players. The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible. Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ.
The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened. They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee.
Actually it's more like giving someone a bike and then they started doing all kinds of crazy tricks with the bike or taking a scooter, breaking the handle off, and started to do crazy tricks on it (skateboard).
Actually the devs didn't anticipate any of what happened. It was pretty obvious as they tried to put a stop to a lot of it as the game progressed and even implemented things like the auction house.
In a themepark there is no creativity, there is merely exploitation... thus your skater analogy ends with this:
In a properly build sandbox there's a chance of averting such a fate but even so the amount of fizzled out sandboxes (too much control from the devs) or that pretty much derpxploded (too little control, EVE for whatever is worth manages a balance here) is great... it takes a right mix of developer intuition, player creativity and gameplay flexibility to get the spark required for a game to come alive.
That video makes no sense. A skateboard crashing into something? There are always bumps and bruises when trying something of that nature, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about. I already listed many of the ways that the players were creative in EQ. I guess it is not a themepark in that case. Maybe it's not a sandbox, but it had lots of tools for being creative. For instance players came up with the idea in EQ of rolling for loot. That was not an intended mechanic. This was again stolen by the developers and made into a non interactive experience.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
The MMOs today are better in what way? Generally the devs did a not so good job of implementing what the players themselves created. Perhaps they did bring it upon themselves, but that doesn't mean today's MMOs are better. I could take a nape while playing through an MMO today. If that is better to most people perhaps you are right. If basically having nothing to do in game but quest level, PvP in instances, group in instance, or raid in instances without the ability to be creative is what makes games today fun for most people then they can have them IMO. I fail to see how these games are better in anyway. The only thing they seem better at is ripping people off in terms of taking their money IMO.
And what pray tell did you do in EQ in the past? Grind/quest to level, PVP (in WoW, donno about EQ), tried taking on legendary creatures in their lairs (instances before the devs got feedback that people would steal each other's loot/kill and bragging rights that way). What you hate is what you loved once because what you loved was something you were discovering, now it is something implemented and refined beyond the systems the players jury rigged in the hole where one day it would be placed.
They are better for their purpose but you dislike them because of it, because they do not require creativity anymore and as I said try sandboxes, sandparks, any game where creativity is required, you will sojourn a long way in today's choice plentiful market but you will find your place in time and your new adventure. Just stop being bitter about things, it is what it is, games evolve, you have also evolved as a person, follow that evolution as I have, I left EVE some 6 months ago, I may be back to it in a year or two but for now it is behind me and I don't know if it will ever make another chapter in the future but I did take from those adventures, those stories, both friends and purpose in my gaming: I look for what may let me be creative, may let me be me without class confines or with as loose confines as possible (capped free form skill system). Define what you want in essence not in form and go hunting because the past won't come back alive again though you may relive it from time to time in your memories you must always move forward.
This is extremely disturbing to me, I dont think anyone should be forced to abandon their likes/dislikes because "Others have moved on."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with appreciating what was widely considered a classic video game and MMO. There is also nothing wrong with wanting a bit of fan-pleasing and hoping to receive an updated version of such a classic game.
Think about all the Hollywood movies that get remade on a yearly, hell, monthly basis that are literally done as a fan service. We have 4 Punisher reboots, how many Spiderman? Even Teen Wolf got remade, Im sure the market for Teen-Wolf was less than the market for people wanting an updated EQ.
So again, there is no reason to demean others choices, likes/dislikes, and tell them to "move on".
The object of having this whole discussion was to show that there is a niche group which still appreciates the type of game EQ was. Ive already accomplished my goal despite the backlash from people who have a fundamental difference in thinking about the subject.
First off those reboots you are talking about: Mostly destroy the original (hell the spiderman reboots take the original backstory of Peter Parker and turn him from a socially reclusive intelligent individual who gets blessed and cursed with super powers to someone who was predestined for it) and piss off every fan of the originals and gaining no real new ones ( Shall we really discuss what they did to Khan in Into the Darkness?).
Also has no one ever told you at your age that "Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups." ? Teen-Wolf by what I know has millions of fans whereas EQ at its prime had what? 500.000-600.000 subs? Lets say 1-2 million fans per total. How many of those would really want the original back as you do? How many of those assumed 2 mil fans can be found on this forum and how many of those have voiced an opinion in this thread? Yes I assumed as well but I assumed heavily in your favor (last sub numbers I can find for EQ were close to the 470k mark, many of those would've moved to WoW so even with its longish history it wouldn't have that many classical EQ fans) so if I fucked up odds are I fucked up in being too generous.
Second off: I never told anyone to move on from their likes and dislikes, I told them to move on from giving those things a concrete form (EQ in its classic form in this case) because that is A) not healthy and extremely counterproductive to you and to all those whom are affected by people with such inabilities (which considering the corpses of old school MMOs that have tried to cater to that demographic is not a small group).
Third off: There is something catastrophically wrong with someone who asks for a game to be remade in essence exactly as it was nearly 2 decades ago because it is a forlorn hope that such a game could even function in this generation of players... we both know how the projects to revive dead or old forms of games fair in terms of population (enough for a shard, not enough for a company to sustain itself on).
And finally: You haven't shown that such a niche group exists, what you have shown is that within a already biased population there exists a number of players who wish for something like EQ was but whom do not agree on exactly what differences (if any) there should be between EQ 1.0 and the remade version. Thus you've shown that the niche exists but that it is fragmented and, considering the already positively biased population of this forum for old school games, it is comparatively small.
Originally posted by Dihoru First off those reboots you are talking about: Mostly destroy the original (hell the spiderman reboots take the original backstory of Peter Parker and turn him from a socially reclusive intelligent individual who gets blessed and cursed with super powers to someone who was predestined for it) and piss off every fan of the originals and gaining no real new ones ( Shall we really discuss what they did to Khan in Into the Darkness?).Also has no one ever told you at your age that "Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups." ? Teen-Wolf by what I know has millions of fans whereas EQ at its prime had what? 500.000-600.000 subs? Lets say 1-2 million fans per total. How many of those would really want the original back as you do? How many of those assumed 2 mil fans can be found on this forum and how many of those have voiced an opinion in this thread? Yes I assumed as well but I assumed heavily in your favor (last sub numbers I can find for EQ were close to the 470k mark, many of those would've moved to WoW so even with its longish history it wouldn't have that many classical EQ fans) so if I fucked up odds are I fucked up in being too generous.
Second off: I never told anyone to move on from their likes and dislikes, I told them to move on from giving those things a concrete form (EQ in its classic form in this case) because that is A) not healthy and extremely counterproductive to you and to all those whom are affected by people with such inabilities (which considering the corpses of old school MMOs that have tried to cater to that demographic is not a small group).
Third off: There is something catastrophically wrong with someone who asks for a game to be remade in essence exactly as it was nearly 2 decades ago because it is a forlorn hope that such a game could even function in this generation of players... we both know how the projects to revive dead or old forms of games fair in terms of population (enough for a shard, not enough for a company to sustain itself on).
And finally: You haven't shown that such a niche group exists, what you have shown is that within a already biased population there exists a number of players who wish for something like EQ was but whom do not agree on exactly what differences (if any) there should be between EQ 1.0 and the remade version. Thus you've shown that the niche exists but that it is fragmented and, considering the already positively biased population of this forum for old school games, it is comparatively small.
I personally think that the best route is to move forward, not backwards, while acknowledging the good and the bad in the past and present. Going back to exactly those games is not as desirable as looking critically at what is good about new MMOs (as well as what is bad), comparing it with what was good with the more classic MMOs (again, as well as what is bad), then finding a way to mix the two until you get the convenience provided by many modern MMO systems while maintaining the character/server attachment and encouraged interaction of the classics.
A lot can be used or learned from the "classics." Not everything needs to be.
Pudding Pops. We all know they're good -- all we want are new flavors, maybe some candy toppings; but yeah more pudding pops please. EQ is like pudding pops.
Comments
Again same with root. If I give you a spell to root and a spell to nuke then when you first root and then nuke that is working as intended. They must have known that.
D o we e can disagree but missy things in your list including soloing I think were planned.
When I see posts like this, I reflect on what made gaming so great in the early UO / EQ days, and it was my early exposure to fantasy novels, a vivid imagination to fill in the gaps where computer graphics left off, and a keen interest to mingle with others that shared these interests in a community-based venue.
I was also a big fan of single-player RPGs for the computer and the console, and I was a HUGE fan of the Ultima franchise. I can't even fathom how many "hours played" I clocked on single-player Ultima titles.
Those were wonder years backed by a love for all things "nerdy" and fantastic. Opening up your cloth maps to find Moon Gates, or your spell books to find out which reagents you needed for this spell or that... God, those were cool times.
The treasure troves of wonder and excitement that we all poured into those early years is something I think we all miss, because they were held aloft by vivid imaginations and a passion that you just don't see in the younger gamers of today. You HAD to use your imagination in those days, C'mon! Did someone say Commodore™ 64 sprite-based graphics?
This is what made it necessary for some MMORPGs to include RP servers, and even those are fading as newer players come in with a skewed perception of what it means to "role play", thus ruining the experience for others that found an enjoyment in those environments.
The gaming landscape has changed, the community landscape has changed, and all you can hope to do is find a way to change along with it, or seek other alternatives for your virtual enjoyment.
If I were to put my finger on a couple of things that I fondly remember about UO and EQ, it was that the environments seemed vast, dangerous, and unpredictable (especially at night), and that if I wanted to strengthen an ability or excel at a skill that I truly coveted, I had to continuously work at that skill and gradually hone it to a level of desired expertise.
I remember trying to learn different languages in EQ, become more proficient at new schools of magic, and in UO I remember trying my luck at taming different beasts in the hopes of taming my own mount. I remember riding into town on my lame ass Ostard, while some experienced S.O.B. came rolling on by with their winged dragon. Bastards! (I was 'jelly', I know
)
These are things I don't think game developers take into account anymore; adding true challenge, yet finding a way to make it an enjoyable and uniquely rewarding experience to the individual as opposed to everyone that happens to be playing the same class.
It's all been boiled down into repeatable raid encounters with gimmicky mechanics, an over-dependence on the "MMO Holy Trinity", and a rehash of some of the game-on-rails features made popular by World of Warcraft and every MMO that tries to subtly use the same formula while calling itself a "new" experience.
There is one major flaw if your idea that they intended for people to solo. You couldn't stand up to mobs in melee at all solo. That's why classes like the Ranger I played couldn't solo past a certain level even with roots and healing. No melee class except Shadow Knight (fear/snare) and Paladin (Heal) could solo at all. Even the Paladin couldn't really solo. If the dev had intended for the game to have solo it would have had made it so melee classes could solo. They wouldn't have had mobs that output many times the damage of the same level player. They wouldn't have people die from mobs in a matter of hits in most cases if you weren't trying to kill a mob that was light blue (many levels below you). Basically it wasn't intended. The roots/snares and other utility spells were simply there for stopping mobs from running away in groups. Most of it was copied almost blatantly from D&D 2nd edition with some modifications. You can look at the D&D second edition classes and their spells and look at the Everquest second edition classes and their spells/abilities. They are very similar. The difference being no one really wanted to solo in D&D. Maybe the devs never expected people who were playing an online D&D style game to want to solo.
OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.
It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.
And THIS ^ representation of today's gaming community, OP, is why you miss the "old days". I think this poster was lucky that the built-in spell checker was MOSTLY on duty. How does one "ignore the back", anyway? Is that like a 'massage' reference? Silvermember must give great Happy Endings, hence the name.
I also think it was a product of the time. Yes new experiences are memorable, but none of today's MMOs are new experiences. They are something built on from the past. Everyone today knows what an MMO is and what it's about. When we were playing an MMO it was like getting one of the first bikes or getting one of the first skateboards. No one new what they were about or what could be done with them. Not even the developers who made them. I'm sure the person who invented skateboards didn't envision kids skating down rails or going into tubes. That's something you can't really replicate because it's already been done and the developers really prevent you from creating anything new today. Even if you could create something new what would you create? I think most thinks have already been thought of and done by the people who played the original few MMOs.
If we were having this convo in OOC, I'm sure someone in EQ would tell us to take it to tells. EQ is so cool. To think I spent very little time in Rathe mountains (where Giant hill is, I think?), and you spent most of your time there. People can spend vast amounts of hours doing different things and never cross paths. /waves from Lower Guk. Tons of fun to be had there; you should check it out (but not on live). Although camps are probably taken; I had similar issue when playing there.
Regarding your recent posts, may I quote Mark Twain? Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
/agreed. IN fact, just give me 2000 EQ properly supported and I would absolutely still be playing. People should ask themselves, would they want to rewatch their favorite movie if it was different every time through? I doubt it. Such is the case with EQ. Every time you go to play it, something was made easier or more convenient. The game is literally ten times easier than at launch. No I'm not talking end-game; no idea there. I said "at launch" which means level one, not raiding at max level with max gear.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Rangers were (are?) serious DPS. Always happy to have one in the group. For a history of Rangers (published in 2006), read this pdf that I saved from the internet black hole and re-posted on my site.
http://www.whitewolfbrigade.com/wwb/RangerChronicles.pdf
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
WOW. A single typo and you drudge out the "kids these days" spiel. He clearly was trying to say "ignore the bad". I can kinda understand not liking the run-on sentences and generally awkward sentence structure but you had to get picky about a single, understandable typo.
Did you see that the OP said "now adays" in his first paragraph and then used "experiances" twice in a later section? You must think the OP is a drooling idiot.
Yes, bumps and bruises that lead to this state of the MMO genre especially its themepark branch. You need to face facts nothing was stolen by the developers but in fact it was demanded by the players and the devs took it and put it in. Most people love to act like the devs are evil people but they aren't they merely give the majority what they want, creativity was not stripped from themeparks and you would be lucky if that was the truth because reality is the holes in the game, the areas where you had to use your creativity, were plugged up by the devs with the mechanics the players themselves created. You keep talking about a bygone era when themeparks were something more when in fact you are talking about an era when they were something less than today and far, far more hostile towards the average gamer.
Players wanted the ability to grind out things faster, devs made quests, players looked to be more efficient in leveling, devs made solo play possible (but in most major MMOs it is still hindered compared to group play) , players wanted to conquer known beasts, beasts which had bested other champions in the past, the devs first gave them dungeons and then proper instances when players bemoaned enough for stolen kills. It is all an evolution not a de-evolution of the themepark genre and yes the automatic, pants on head easy, themeparks of today are again an evolution because EQ was a ride, one without many features but still a ride, whereas today the auto-routing, auto-leveling stuff are rides and are ones which are significantly better ones than EQ ever was. Take those rose glasses off and realize what you want isn't a ride, it is a emergent adventure, realize that EQ was what it was because it was incomplete and imperfect in its early years and that allowed you to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, it design the view of your ride to a degree but it was never something you truly controlled and EQ's evolution, EQ 2's, WoW's, Age of Conan's, etc,etc show what they are: rides, at first incomplete but evolving towards completion.
If you want adventure look to a sandbox, look to a game that won't tell you what to do, Hell it won't even tell you what power level you truly are, it will just set you loose on a world and hope you manage to make your way like I did... 9 + years ago...
Find your adventure again, stop trying to relive a bygone one, look to a sandbox or even a sandpark but stop thinking about the past it won't do you, or the OP, any good because EQ evolved, WoW evolved, every game evolved, if they no longer appeal to you plenty more are coming and... do like I do: Even if you dislike the game's inclination (themepark, sandbox, PVE, FFA PVP, whatnot) try it anyway, I went from WoW to EVE even though I hated the control scheme for EVE I spent 1 hour playing the first day...2 the next...9 years down the line I still don't know how it happened or why but damn was it worth it, do the same you may never know where your next adventure lies.
EQ2 came out at a terrible time. All the people who wanted to play an EQ type game were still playing EQ. That's like serving dinner an hour after lunch and wondering why no one ate the food. Plus WoW launched at the exact same time, lol. Double whammy; EQ2 was doomed from the start.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I remember seeing a giant in the commonlands for the first time. I thought it would be great to defeat something so strong. People were dying to it in a few hits. Little did I realize that it would be a long time until I actually defeated one solo. Even when they became green cons I had trouble kiting them down. They had crazy amounts of health and hit like a truck. There was no hope as a melee without healing until the expansions came out. They were good money though.
The MMOs today are better in what way? Generally the devs did a not so good job of implementing what the players themselves created. Perhaps they did bring it upon themselves, but that doesn't mean today's MMOs are better. I could take a nape while playing through an MMO today. If that is better to most people perhaps you are right. If basically having nothing to do in game but quest level, PvP in instances, group in instance, or raid in instances without the ability to be creative is what makes games today fun for most people then they can have them IMO. I fail to see how these games are better in anyway. The only thing they seem better at is ripping people off in terms of taking their money IMO.
I played Eve for a few months back in 2003. Know what I remember most? Profanity. Next, was that you could fight a "lesser" ship and get pwned while barely scratching your enemy. I also prefer my avatars to have two eyes, ears, etc; not one nose, two wings, and a tail. Furthermore, I enjoy terrain rather than endless textures. Eve's economy is pretty phenomenal and I wish one like that could be setup in a modern fantasy MMO. Not hating on Eve; in fact my character is still running around there; but it's not my cup of tea. If they reeled in the profanity, I might be more inclined to play.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
And what pray tell did you do in EQ in the past? Grind/quest to level, PVP (in WoW, donno about EQ), tried taking on legendary creatures in their lairs (instances before the devs got feedback that people would steal each other's loot/kill and bragging rights that way). What you hate is what you loved once because what you loved was something you were discovering, now it is something implemented and refined beyond the systems the players jury rigged in the hole where one day it would be placed.
They are better for their purpose but you dislike them because of it, because they do not require creativity anymore and as I said try sandboxes, sandparks, any game where creativity is required, you will sojourn a long way in today's choice plentiful market but you will find your place in time and your new adventure. Just stop being bitter about things, it is what it is, games evolve, you have also evolved as a person, follow that evolution as I have, I left EVE some 6 months ago, I may be back to it in a year or two but for now it is behind me and I don't know if it will ever make another chapter in the future but I did take from those adventures, those stories, both friends and purpose in my gaming: I look for what may let me be creative, may let me be me without class confines or with as loose confines as possible (capped free form skill system). Define what you want in essence not in form and go hunting because the past won't come back alive again though you may relive it from time to time in your memories you must always move forward.
This is extremely disturbing to me, I dont think anyone should be forced to abandon their likes/dislikes because "Others have moved on."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with appreciating what was widely considered a classic video game and MMO. There is also nothing wrong with wanting a bit of fan-pleasing and hoping to receive an updated version of such a classic game.
Think about all the Hollywood movies that get remade on a yearly, hell, monthly basis that are literally done as a fan service. We have 4 Punisher reboots, how many Spiderman? Even Teen Wolf got remade, Im sure the market for Teen-Wolf was less than the market for people wanting an updated EQ.
So again, there is no reason to demean others choices, likes/dislikes, and tell them to "move on".
The object of having this whole discussion was to show that there is a niche group which still appreciates the type of game EQ was. Ive already accomplished my goal despite the backlash from people who have a fundamental difference in thinking about the subject.
I'd play/pay £50 a month to play original EQ with modern graphics. Sounds great.
First off those reboots you are talking about: Mostly destroy the original (hell the spiderman reboots take the original backstory of Peter Parker and turn him from a socially reclusive intelligent individual who gets blessed and cursed with super powers to someone who was predestined for it) and piss off every fan of the originals and gaining no real new ones ( Shall we really discuss what they did to Khan in Into the Darkness?).
Also has no one ever told you at your age that "Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups." ? Teen-Wolf by what I know has millions of fans whereas EQ at its prime had what? 500.000-600.000 subs? Lets say 1-2 million fans per total. How many of those would really want the original back as you do? How many of those assumed 2 mil fans can be found on this forum and how many of those have voiced an opinion in this thread? Yes I assumed as well but I assumed heavily in your favor (last sub numbers I can find for EQ were close to the 470k mark, many of those would've moved to WoW so even with its longish history it wouldn't have that many classical EQ fans) so if I fucked up odds are I fucked up in being too generous.
Second off: I never told anyone to move on from their likes and dislikes, I told them to move on from giving those things a concrete form (EQ in its classic form in this case) because that is A) not healthy and
extremely counterproductive to you and to all those whom are affected by people with such inabilities (which considering the corpses of old school MMOs that have tried to cater to that demographic is not a small group).
Third off: There is something catastrophically wrong with someone who asks for a game to be remade in essence exactly as it was nearly 2 decades ago because it is a forlorn hope that such a game could even function in this generation of players... we both know how the projects to revive dead or old forms of games fair in terms of population (enough for a shard, not enough for a company to sustain itself on).
And finally: You haven't shown that such a niche group exists, what you have shown is that within a already biased population there exists a number of players who wish for something like EQ was but whom do not agree on exactly what differences (if any) there should be between EQ 1.0 and the remade version. Thus you've shown that the niche exists but that it is fragmented and, considering the already positively biased population of this forum for old school games, it is comparatively small.
I personally think that the best route is to move forward, not backwards, while acknowledging the good and the bad in the past and present. Going back to exactly those games is not as desirable as looking critically at what is good about new MMOs (as well as what is bad), comparing it with what was good with the more classic MMOs (again, as well as what is bad), then finding a way to mix the two until you get the convenience provided by many modern MMO systems while maintaining the character/server attachment and encouraged interaction of the classics.
A lot can be used or learned from the "classics." Not everything needs to be.