Absolutely not true.. I have 18 pages of what I want in an MMO, all of which my wife and I discussed and agreed how much of an improvement it would be over what keeps getting made over and over and over and over.
We know what we want, weather it's possible to code and deliver on a pc is another thing.
MMO gamers know what they want *individually* - the issue is AAA MMO games often try to be all things to all players - thus disappointing everyone.
Having a smaller more focused game is a better solution - sure you may only attract 100k players but if you keep your Dev costs way down, it could still be profitable.
This is the perfect response. IF MMO developers would quit trying to make a MMO for EVERYONE and focus on a game for just part of the player base then they'd have much more success and last a hell of o lot longer. Making a game for everyone just means you'll disappoint everyone.
I'm thinking this needs to happen as well. Trying to get all the money from all the gamers is just making everyone unhappy. You want social gamers? Fine, warn solo players off. You want open world pvp? Fine, warn the pve players off. Focus!
The only exception is the sandpark idea. I think there might be a way to make both sandbox gamers and questers happy in the same gameworld.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
And as for the comment about game devs making the game they are passionate about: I'm sorry, that is just bad business. At the end of the day games are business. You are making a product for a customer. You make that product the way the customer wants. That would be like if I owned a fast food joint and only served deep fried horse butthole because I think it tastes great. Sure, it's my decision, but I don't suspect I will be toppling McDonalds any time soon and I sure as hell don't think there will be investors lining up to foot the bill on that little project. Though all of that is exactly why MMOs will continue to be lobby-based dungeon running games, except the lobby is a gigantic game world that some poor devs wasted a lot of time on.
Well that's certainly a pessimist's take on what I posted. You don't think your example is a bit hyperbolic? To turn your own hyperbolic example against you, would someone in the 50s open up a raw fish and rice shop in America? Oh no, that's just nasty! Though I bet you wish you had jumped on the sashimi and sushi trend in America. Even the most backwoods town has a sushi restaurant now.
If the designers aren't passionate about what they are building you get lackluster phoned-in projects. And as far as the publishers we're seeing a shift in how the developers are getting funding. There isn't a publisher in the world that would have backed Star Citizen when Chris Roberts went looking for funding and now it's arguably the most successful crowd sourced MMO to date, and it hasn't even released yet.
Sorry pal, but you're not disproving the need for developer passion, just lamenting the predominate method of getting financed in the game industry. And quite frankly that's quickly becoming two different subjects.
You are confusing passion with practicality. Developers can be plenty passionate while still crafting a product geared towards the market. And honestly, if you really think there are devs out there throwing it all on the line on some out there idea, you are out of touch with reality. I can point to a couple devs that have taken that route and very few have seen even a modicum of success. Look at Burning Dog, they have great ideas and couldnt get kickstarted. TWICE. Star Citizen has a big name behind it, and then it sort of just snowballed. It's an interesting case study but little more than that.
Not confusing anything. You agree with me that Star Citizen is a success. It doesn't matter what excuse you think made it happen, it happened, bottom line, end of story. I know there are developers that have gone from big money triple A studios to follow their passions. I worked with founders of Stoic before they formed their indie. I talked to plenty of the ones making their own way without publishers at E3. (Do you even E3?) Sorry but for someone on the outside you are the one deficient in a supply of reality.
And comparing sushi to fried butthole is pretty out there, but whatever. I guess you could argue someone could claim fried butthole was an asian delicacy, etc etc, but thats way out in the weeds and boring.
You're pretty young or naive, aren't you? To a 50s population raw fish WAS fried butthole. It's only the fact that you grew up in a world were sushi is so readily accepted that you can't fathom a time when it wasn't accepted. There are already initiatives to recycle human waste. And while we react to it with revulsion doesn't mean in another half-century the poor won't be lapping it up greedily.
We're simply talking innovation here, and your denial of it is, well, denial.
It's all fine and good to wear the rose colored glasses and think some magical dev team will come along and all of your dreams will come true, you just have to keep buying the next big thing full of empty promises and eventually lightning will strike. Right?...
Well its better than living in a pile of feces and thinking that's how everyone else lives so you might as well get used to it, and wallow around in it.
OR, here is a novel idea, be an informed consumer and purchase products you KNOW have a feature list which either entirely or mostly agrees with what you like so you don't find yourself on these very forums trying to white knight a product you yourself arent even completely sold on. But where is the fun in that?
It is just dumbfounding to me that someone would honestly think consumers shouldn't have criteria and expectations. Oh well, I guess I'll just let you think I dont know what I want/Im whats wrong with MMOs/I kill kittens or whatever.
Straw man, and absolutely nothing to do with developers having passion for their project. You're spinning out of control here. Were you distracted from the point by something shiny or by something smoking?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.
Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.
Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..
I do understand MMO developers today, It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.
I agree with most of what you said, but not your conclusion.
Its the developers fault for listening to the playerbase. All the best games, movies, art, etc in the history of the world was not designed by customer input, it was designed by someone who had a vision or inspiration and skill in their craft. Do you think Pablo Picasso went around asking his fans and customers what he thought they wanted in his next painting? NO, god no.
You are exactly right about customers not knowing what they want. Many times you have to show them. Many times they say they dont want something until you remove that feature and then they realize they do want it, or vice versa.
I call it grass is greener on the other side syndrome. People have this frankly stupid idea that just because something is different that its better.
Examples:
"Open-World" (whatever the hell that means these days)
"Skill Based Systems"
"Soloability"
"No Grinding"
etc, etc, etc. I could continue the list but i think you get the point.
The other example i give is the guy who thinks having 2 or 3 girlfriends would rule, until he tries actually doing it, and then he realizes its not what its cracked up to be.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by sunandshadow Ugh, strongly disagree. MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things. Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy. Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.
+1
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Originally posted by sunandshadow Ugh, strongly disagree. MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things. Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy. Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.
+1
Pretty much agree, which is why WoW is still remarkably popular, it caters to a fairly broad spectrum of player types. Games can either try to do the WoW thing and cater to a varied playerbase, not really excelling in any particular area, or they can concentrate on a particular type of game, with a specific player demographic in mind, accepting that player numbers will be lower.
Players do know what they want in a game, the disappointment is usually when the developers discover that the particular demographic their aiming at is either smaller than they like, or are not as dedicated to a single game as they would prefer.
There is a lot of competition out there for players time and money, the games that fall by the wayside do so for a very good reason, they either were not good enough, or not competitive enough in the first place, and its a market where its pretty much the survival of the fittest, and the age old lament of 'your not playing it right' or 'you don't understand the game' just does not cut it, players will go where they will, and if X game fails and shuts down, who really cares, there is always game Y to play, and game Z is just about to release too. Its MMO Darwinism, good games evolve and bad games dissolve.
Originally posted by Torgrim For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.
Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.
Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..
I do understand MMO developers today, It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.
I think individually we all know what we want, But collectively we cant reach a consensus.
I think the only way forward to satisfy gamers/consumers is to release smaller, Niche titles with smaller populations catering to specific specifications.
This is of course at odds with publishers and developers which want to maximize profits. If they are willing to accept a lower profit they will most probably receive much higher acclaim / consumer praise for their product.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
People will always whine at anything, not just games, that's a human nature, but saying that, I disagree completely.
The problem lately with MMO games its not that the developers listen or not, or the community, its the blinding greed driving hunger for money, quick money to be exact, here's a little story from my own experience.
I started playing MMO games about 11 years ago, with my first game being Final Fantasy XI, and until now, it is still one of the best games I've ever played, I played it for almost 10 years along side trying and testing other games, I know there are people who didn't like it and people who shared my opinion, people have different taste, but that's not the point, the point was, the game succeeded in developing into a way better game from the start because the developers had freedom in doing what they want and Square Enix ( back then was Square soft) didn't pressure them as long they produced good results, it's fine. They listened to the community but didn't give in to pointless complains.
On the other hand, I'll pick warhammer online as an example of murdered excellent game, the game had the hype, the basics, the style, it was amazing when we saw it before release, and when we got into the game, we were mesmerized by it, it was amazing and hell of fun experience, the first problem the had was creating too many servers expecting "lots of sale" for the game hype, then they started to lose subs, they started to almost do everything the players ask, be it a whine or an insightful suggesting, they just listened to anything, slowly killing the game, I read from reviews after dropping the game, that they scrapped their original development plan and changed it for what the community wants, thus killing a really good game with big potential.
So my point is, I do agree to some point that there are people who have no idea what they want, but on the other hand, there are people who I've seen and read their posts, they actually made really great post and insightful suggesting, clearly showing they know what they want from a game.
What actually kills games lately is the money hunger, I know its logic to want to make money but the difference between developing a game to make it a GAME is much more different than developing a game to make it into business.
Originally posted by Torgrim For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.
Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.
Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..
I do understand MMO developers today, It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.
I think individually we all know what we want, But collectively we cant reach a consensus.
I think the only way forward to satisfy gamers/consumers is to release smaller, Niche titles with smaller populations catering to specific specifications.
This is of course at odds with publishers and developers which want to maximize profits. If they are willing to accept a lower profit they will most probably receive much higher acclaim / consumer praise for their product.
Totally agree, you just have to look at Eve online, its an old game, 2003 in fact, but its constantly evolving, and, it does not try to be everything and anything, it is a game that only appeals to a fairly specific player type, and the developers are totally focused on supporting them, the fact that the player base is largely unchanged, if growing slightly, is testament to how successful they are, its probably also because of the much 'smaller' playerbase that CCP is able to communicate with the players so well, and vice versa, there have been several incidents where certain 'activities' were curtailed or changed simply due to player protest/revolt, it has made for an interesting dynamic, but its very clearly a niche game, and for every player that loves Eve, there is undoubtedly a dozen or more that hate it, or perhaps recognise its worth without any particular desire to experience it.
On a completely separate note, perhaps players will stop playing WoW, when other games stop trying so hard to emulate it
Originally posted by svandy I know exactly what I want - For reference, when I say a real MMO I mean:
Meaningful group play, typically achieved through "the trinity" Open world, minimal if any instancing to include dungeons Actual travel time, no just porting all over the damn place Varied progression goals after max level that are MEANINGFUL (could list ideas forever). In fact, if they could do away with "levels" entirely that would be great.
Might as well say you want exactly a good game. Saying things like "meaningful" "varied", or "minimal" actually doesn't tell me anything. You say you could go on forever about this stuff but its so vague whats the point?
I think folks like yourself have it boiled down to a science with what you don't like. But when it comes to what you do like or want, its so random and doesn't really mean anything. According to your criteria, your dream mmo is WoW with no teleports and no instances. That is about as broad a stroke as you can make.
But I'm sure you can pontificate endlessly about all the little things you hate about every mmo that is out right now.
I've seen posters here dismiss an entire game because the grass was waving in unison instead of randomly. Then turn around and say "I want to be immersed." I see that crap all the time.
Bitter vets that make post after venom filled post, lashing out at everyone, blaming them for the decayed state of the genre. And then in the same breath, yearn for community and social tools in their games. Like some magical game system is going to force them to no longer be a mud slinging, jaded gamer.
Most of the problems I see people having with mmos isnt the actual game, its themselves.
Think about your true mmo epiphany, that mmorpg which opened your eyes to possibilities and made you feel like you were part of something bigger than just a video game. Whats changed since then? Your expectations. Period. You had none when you went into your first mmo all wide eyed and noobish.
Imagine if you carried your 1000 page tome of required features into that first mmo experience. You wouldve uninstalled in a day. Bug ridden, laggy, down for maintenance all the time, static npcs, barely any content, low rez, horribly imbalanced, dead landscapes, terrible animations, with clunky combat.
yeah.
OMG! exactly what I wanted to say only I couldn't have said it half as well.
Completely agree!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Foobarx I know what I want in a game. You know what you want in a game. The two are not the same. Multiply this by a thousand and you see why you can never have a consensus. Design by consensus fails every time. Did the developer of Pong say to himself, I wonder what people want in a Pong game? He didn't ask, he just made the damn game. People played it. Amazing how that happens. Now it's like you must win a popularity contest first before your game is even deemed worthy of trying in the first place. Well just make the damn game and stop trying to sell it to us. If we like it, we'll play it. If not, we won't. Simple. The developer of Pong didn't expect the game to be a huge success. It just happened. Sometimes the best solution is to do your own damn thing.
QFT design by coloring book/committee or design something you(the developer) want to play; one or the other. If you need a focus group and a 30+Mil marketing budget for a 50Mil game, your probably in the wrong industry for your abilities.
1) Every game will have gushing fans and people who hate it. Through the magic of selective bias it may seem to be either too much unjustified negativity (if you love the game) or mindless fanboism (if you hate the game). People do know what they want and what they like. And what they don't like. Both views will be aired for any game, unsurprisingly.
2) Innovation and change isn't automatically good. In fact, more often than not it is done badly. People do ask for innovation, but not if it's poorly designed/implemented. Again, perfectly justified and unsurprising.
You may have to consider that the games you love may have deserved their poor reputation, lacklustre reception and low retention. Strangely enough, the best way to get lots of subs and high regard is to make a fun, engaging game.
Originally posted by svandy Originally posted by DistopiaWe have seen this list before when a MMO get close to what you want it looks likes your dream MMO but it will fall flatt.Dreams dont belong in this thread.
Well that's one way to prove your point, dismiss everything that isn't in line with it.Thats how it usually goes it would seem. God forbid someone around here engages in an intellectual discussion about their supposed hobby instead of a bunch of "me too!" responses.
@Foomerang: Yes, how dare I have standards. Its silly to expect someone to just accept whatever the next big MMO is with open arms. If I know I won't like it, I won't play it. The real problem is people who think that because Person A doesn't like Person B, C, and D's favorite game - person A is a troll. Meanwhile B, C, and D will abandon said game in a month for the next big release anyway and never speak of it again (Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls, and likely soon Wildstar).
MMOs are stale and if you refuse to admit it, you're part of the problem not the solution. I personally vote with my wallet, I don't see how this makes me a "bitter vet," or whatever you were trying to insinuate.
And yes, a non instanced WoW would pretty much be amazing in my book. Or at least remove Group Finder and I am down, or make it so you have to walk to the instance to queue up. IM SO HARD TO PLEASE OMG.
Why isnt there ever a middle ground here? If you can't shit on everything then obviously you're blindly running in with open arms, right? I am critical of the games I play and I also enjoy the things they do right. The point is, Im playing. I don't scrutinize my way out of a genre.
#5. World PvP with meaning, e.g., ability to control entire continents and cities etc... not just some dedicated zone or area.
#6. Deep and Complex crafting (This should be a game in itself).
#7. Variety of Social Hubs with incentives to use them, e.g., Taverns, INNs, cantinas, gambling areas, etc.
#8. Deep aesthetic customization. The best customization I've seen in any game is All Point Bulletin (APB).
People are constantly whining because we are spoon-fed the same crud, e.g., quest hub to quest hub / story progression with end-game battleground redundancy. GW2, ESO, SWTOR, AOC, WAR, AION, STO, WOW, EQ2, etc... All the same crap.
1. Sizeable hostile world to explore. Not huge since huge often means empty. 2. No quest hubs 3. No cash shop 4. Amazing, elaborate, deep dungeons 6. Magical gear is fairly rare and difficult to obtain. Coin is hard to come by. 7. True day/night cycle where night is pitch black unless you have a light source or special vision. 8. No auction house/broker 9. No mounts, at least until years after launch. 10. Fun crafting and activities like fishing.
What EQ1 did not get right, and the reason millions played (and quit), is that EQ1 evolved into a different game every six months. Pretty quickly 99% of folks realized they couldn't stay relevant and left; with only the fanatical few and viral growth to sustain the population.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by sunandshadow Ugh, strongly disagree. MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things. Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy. Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.
Agreed. Players can't be put into one group cause everyone has a different play style and a players needs change from day to day. Never will be a game that everyone who plays it says it great.
Nobodies fault, just the way things are.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There are ONLY two types of mmorpg's so not like it is not EASY to know what i want.Well there is 3 IF you include what EQ Landmark and NEXT are TRYING to do but that is not a COMPLETE effort that is splitting two ideas apart.
1 FFXI zero hand holding,you must discover and unfold everything for yourself at least until the internet fills up wikipedia.
2 WOW/EQ2 ect ect.Chase yellow markers around all game until end level.Tons if not EVERYTHING is hand holding.
My choice is easy,i want a FFXI type game with of course technical advancements of the modern era and some tweaks to improve it.So you can see i know exactly what i want,i am not like the modern day game hopper,i stuck with FFXI for over 10 years even while i played MANY other games.You have to of course TRY other games along the way,you never know when a gem might come along,that is how i found FFXI and EQ2 and VG,otherwise i would have continued to play FPS's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
actually for me personally there are some MMOs that I like as it just so happens that what it has was exactly what I was looking for (what I like) and the MMOs that I don't care much for actually contained mostly items I didn't like.
so for me the formula actually works well
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Only 2? Themepark and sandbox, I'm guessing? Personally I'd consider RTSes to be a third type, and there are all these social gaming sites composed of a forum plus minigames which are MMO-like, if not really 100% MMOs... Have you ever tried something like Flight Rising?
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
And GW2 and ESO were actually the nicest breaths of fresh air we've gotten in a long time, but its STILL stale air. And it had many other problems.
Agreed. While GW2 and ESO changed up some features, at their core they are still the same game we've been playing since WOW released (and some would argue since EQ1)
There were other directions games could have gone, and did go, UO, AC1, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, all of these are markedly different in direction, much as EVE currently is, and that's what some of us want to seem, games that follow a different design path besides the standard.
I agree with that too. Problem is, most developers aren't willing to take that risk. They want a "guaranteed win", a predictable profit. They aren't willing to completely go out on a limb and invent something actually creative and new. This can be understandable at times, making an MMO can take quite a bit of money so if it does ultimately fall flat because their idea just doesn't work, they're really in the red and could close down.
Finding a developer that has
a) top notch planners, designers and programmers to get whatever they decide to design functioning well, and
b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown
is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.
Personally I'm proud to say that I don't know what I want. I expect developers to come up with ideas and implement them. I'll check them out, and if it turns out that I enjoy them, then you've got me as a loyal customer. Surprise me!
b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown
is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.
Why?
There are plenty of good games that are not "venture completely into the unknown".
Xcom Enemy Unknown, Dishonored, Deus Ex Human Evolution, ...... you don't need to be completely new to be entertaining. In fact, it is much more about the polish, implementation, and details than totally new ideas.
Even games like Borderland is not totally new .. but a clever combination of old ideas.
I'm tired of finding a MMO I love and then they change the game to be something else from what it was at the start. This happens to every MMO I have played and fell in love with. The only one that has stayed close to release that I played is Eve Online but it's to pvp focused for me.
What I want you ask? I want a SWG with updated interface and graphics and support that sticks to the core game play. This would make me a happy camper.
Comments
Absolutely not true.. I have 18 pages of what I want in an MMO, all of which my wife and I discussed and agreed how much of an improvement it would be over what keeps getting made over and over and over and over.
We know what we want, weather it's possible to code and deliver on a pc is another thing.
I'm thinking this needs to happen as well. Trying to get all the money from all the gamers is just making everyone unhappy. You want social gamers? Fine, warn solo players off. You want open world pvp? Fine, warn the pve players off. Focus!
The only exception is the sandpark idea. I think there might be a way to make both sandbox gamers and questers happy in the same gameworld.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Not confusing anything. You agree with me that Star Citizen is a success. It doesn't matter what excuse you think made it happen, it happened, bottom line, end of story. I know there are developers that have gone from big money triple A studios to follow their passions. I worked with founders of Stoic before they formed their indie. I talked to plenty of the ones making their own way without publishers at E3. (Do you even E3?) Sorry but for someone on the outside you are the one deficient in a supply of reality.
You're pretty young or naive, aren't you? To a 50s population raw fish WAS fried butthole. It's only the fact that you grew up in a world were sushi is so readily accepted that you can't fathom a time when it wasn't accepted. There are already initiatives to recycle human waste. And while we react to it with revulsion doesn't mean in another half-century the poor won't be lapping it up greedily.
We're simply talking innovation here, and your denial of it is, well, denial.
Well its better than living in a pile of feces and thinking that's how everyone else lives so you might as well get used to it, and wallow around in it.
Straw man, and absolutely nothing to do with developers having passion for their project. You're spinning out of control here. Were you distracted from the point by something shiny or by something smoking?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I agree with most of what you said, but not your conclusion.
Its the developers fault for listening to the playerbase. All the best games, movies, art, etc in the history of the world was not designed by customer input, it was designed by someone who had a vision or inspiration and skill in their craft. Do you think Pablo Picasso went around asking his fans and customers what he thought they wanted in his next painting? NO, god no.
You are exactly right about customers not knowing what they want. Many times you have to show them. Many times they say they dont want something until you remove that feature and then they realize they do want it, or vice versa.
I call it grass is greener on the other side syndrome. People have this frankly stupid idea that just because something is different that its better.
Examples:
"Open-World" (whatever the hell that means these days)
"Skill Based Systems"
"Soloability"
"No Grinding"
etc, etc, etc. I could continue the list but i think you get the point.
The other example i give is the guy who thinks having 2 or 3 girlfriends would rule, until he tries actually doing it, and then he realizes its not what its cracked up to be.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
+1
Pretty much agree, which is why WoW is still remarkably popular, it caters to a fairly broad spectrum of player types. Games can either try to do the WoW thing and cater to a varied playerbase, not really excelling in any particular area, or they can concentrate on a particular type of game, with a specific player demographic in mind, accepting that player numbers will be lower.
Players do know what they want in a game, the disappointment is usually when the developers discover that the particular demographic their aiming at is either smaller than they like, or are not as dedicated to a single game as they would prefer.
There is a lot of competition out there for players time and money, the games that fall by the wayside do so for a very good reason, they either were not good enough, or not competitive enough in the first place, and its a market where its pretty much the survival of the fittest, and the age old lament of 'your not playing it right' or 'you don't understand the game' just does not cut it, players will go where they will, and if X game fails and shuts down, who really cares, there is always game Y to play, and game Z is just about to release too. Its MMO Darwinism, good games evolve and bad games dissolve.
I think individually we all know what we want, But collectively we cant reach a consensus.
I think the only way forward to satisfy gamers/consumers is to release smaller, Niche titles with smaller populations catering to specific specifications.
This is of course at odds with publishers and developers which want to maximize profits. If they are willing to accept a lower profit they will most probably receive much higher acclaim / consumer praise for their product.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Seems like this conversation is coming up at least once a month.
But, as Nitth said, "I think individually we all know what we want, But collectively we cant reach a consensus." Seems to sum it up relatively well.
Or at the very least, we know what we want, but in our heads, everything we want is better than what we want imagined by others.
People will always whine at anything, not just games, that's a human nature, but saying that, I disagree completely.
The problem lately with MMO games its not that the developers listen or not, or the community, its the blinding greed driving hunger for money, quick money to be exact, here's a little story from my own experience.
I started playing MMO games about 11 years ago, with my first game being Final Fantasy XI, and until now, it is still one of the best games I've ever played, I played it for almost 10 years along side trying and testing other games, I know there are people who didn't like it and people who shared my opinion, people have different taste, but that's not the point, the point was, the game succeeded in developing into a way better game from the start because the developers had freedom in doing what they want and Square Enix ( back then was Square soft) didn't pressure them as long they produced good results, it's fine. They listened to the community but didn't give in to pointless complains.
On the other hand, I'll pick warhammer online as an example of murdered excellent game, the game had the hype, the basics, the style, it was amazing when we saw it before release, and when we got into the game, we were mesmerized by it, it was amazing and hell of fun experience, the first problem the had was creating too many servers expecting "lots of sale" for the game hype, then they started to lose subs, they started to almost do everything the players ask, be it a whine or an insightful suggesting, they just listened to anything, slowly killing the game, I read from reviews after dropping the game, that they scrapped their original development plan and changed it for what the community wants, thus killing a really good game with big potential.
So my point is, I do agree to some point that there are people who have no idea what they want, but on the other hand, there are people who I've seen and read their posts, they actually made really great post and insightful suggesting, clearly showing they know what they want from a game.
What actually kills games lately is the money hunger, I know its logic to want to make money but the difference between developing a game to make it a GAME is much more different than developing a game to make it into business.
Totally agree, you just have to look at Eve online, its an old game, 2003 in fact, but its constantly evolving, and, it does not try to be everything and anything, it is a game that only appeals to a fairly specific player type, and the developers are totally focused on supporting them, the fact that the player base is largely unchanged, if growing slightly, is testament to how successful they are, its probably also because of the much 'smaller' playerbase that CCP is able to communicate with the players so well, and vice versa, there have been several incidents where certain 'activities' were curtailed or changed simply due to player protest/revolt, it has made for an interesting dynamic, but its very clearly a niche game, and for every player that loves Eve, there is undoubtedly a dozen or more that hate it, or perhaps recognise its worth without any particular desire to experience it.
On a completely separate note, perhaps players will stop playing WoW, when other games stop trying so hard to emulate it
OMG! exactly what I wanted to say only I couldn't have said it half as well.
Completely agree!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Couple of things:
1) Every game will have gushing fans and people who hate it. Through the magic of selective bias it may seem to be either too much unjustified negativity (if you love the game) or mindless fanboism (if you hate the game). People do know what they want and what they like. And what they don't like. Both views will be aired for any game, unsurprisingly.
2) Innovation and change isn't automatically good. In fact, more often than not it is done badly. People do ask for innovation, but not if it's poorly designed/implemented. Again, perfectly justified and unsurprising.
You may have to consider that the games you love may have deserved their poor reputation, lacklustre reception and low retention. Strangely enough, the best way to get lots of subs and high regard is to make a fun, engaging game.
Thats how it usually goes it would seem. God forbid someone around here engages in an intellectual discussion about their supposed hobby instead of a bunch of "me too!" responses.
@Foomerang: Yes, how dare I have standards. Its silly to expect someone to just accept whatever the next big MMO is with open arms. If I know I won't like it, I won't play it. The real problem is people who think that because Person A doesn't like Person B, C, and D's favorite game - person A is a troll. Meanwhile B, C, and D will abandon said game in a month for the next big release anyway and never speak of it again (Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls, and likely soon Wildstar).
MMOs are stale and if you refuse to admit it, you're part of the problem not the solution. I personally vote with my wallet, I don't see how this makes me a "bitter vet," or whatever you were trying to insinuate.
And yes, a non instanced WoW would pretty much be amazing in my book. Or at least remove Group Finder and I am down, or make it so you have to walk to the instance to queue up. IM SO HARD TO PLEASE OMG.
Why isnt there ever a middle ground here? If you can't shit on everything then obviously you're blindly running in with open arms, right? I am critical of the games I play and I also enjoy the things they do right. The point is, Im playing. I don't scrutinize my way out of a genre.
Speak for yourself. I know what I want in a game.
#1. Fluid and Superior Animations
#2. Gigantic and Seamless World with World Housing, Player-Built Cities
#3. No "Go here, go there" quest hub bouncing.
#4. No "Battlegrounds".
#5. World PvP with meaning, e.g., ability to control entire continents and cities etc... not just some dedicated zone or area.
#6. Deep and Complex crafting (This should be a game in itself).
#7. Variety of Social Hubs with incentives to use them, e.g., Taverns, INNs, cantinas, gambling areas, etc.
#8. Deep aesthetic customization. The best customization I've seen in any game is All Point Bulletin (APB).
People are constantly whining because we are spoon-fed the same crud, e.g., quest hub to quest hub / story progression with end-game battleground redundancy. GW2, ESO, SWTOR, AOC, WAR, AION, STO, WOW, EQ2, etc... All the same crap.
I want EQ1 circa 2000 pretty much.
1. Sizeable hostile world to explore. Not huge since huge often means empty.
2. No quest hubs
3. No cash shop
4. Amazing, elaborate, deep dungeons
6. Magical gear is fairly rare and difficult to obtain. Coin is hard to come by.
7. True day/night cycle where night is pitch black unless you have a light source or special vision.
8. No auction house/broker
9. No mounts, at least until years after launch.
10. Fun crafting and activities like fishing.
What EQ1 did not get right, and the reason millions played (and quit), is that EQ1 evolved into a different game every six months. Pretty quickly 99% of folks realized they couldn't stay relevant and left; with only the fanatical few and viral growth to sustain the population.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I wouldn't call selling 3.6M copies (GW2) in the first week "doing it wrong" or making $200M+ in 2013 (TOR) "doing it wrong".
May be you don't like it ... but certainly not "wrong" in the eyes of the devs.
Agreed. Players can't be put into one group cause everyone has a different play style and a players needs change from day to day. Never will be a game that everyone who plays it says it great.
Nobodies fault, just the way things are.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There are ONLY two types of mmorpg's so not like it is not EASY to know what i want.Well there is 3 IF you include what EQ Landmark and NEXT are TRYING to do but that is not a COMPLETE effort that is splitting two ideas apart.
1 FFXI zero hand holding,you must discover and unfold everything for yourself at least until the internet fills up wikipedia.
2 WOW/EQ2 ect ect.Chase yellow markers around all game until end level.Tons if not EVERYTHING is hand holding.
My choice is easy,i want a FFXI type game with of course technical advancements of the modern era and some tweaks to improve it.So you can see i know exactly what i want,i am not like the modern day game hopper,i stuck with FFXI for over 10 years even while i played MANY other games.You have to of course TRY other games along the way,you never know when a gem might come along,that is how i found FFXI and EQ2 and VG,otherwise i would have continued to play FPS's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
actually for me personally there are some MMOs that I like as it just so happens that what it has was exactly what I was looking for (what I like) and the MMOs that I don't care much for actually contained mostly items I didn't like.
so for me the formula actually works well
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Only 2? Themepark and sandbox, I'm guessing? Personally I'd consider RTSes to be a third type, and there are all these social gaming sites composed of a forum plus minigames which are MMO-like, if not really 100% MMOs... Have you ever tried something like Flight Rising?
I agree with that too. Problem is, most developers aren't willing to take that risk. They want a "guaranteed win", a predictable profit. They aren't willing to completely go out on a limb and invent something actually creative and new. This can be understandable at times, making an MMO can take quite a bit of money so if it does ultimately fall flat because their idea just doesn't work, they're really in the red and could close down.
Finding a developer that has
a) top notch planners, designers and programmers to get whatever they decide to design functioning well, and
b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown
is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.
Where's the any key?
Why?
There are plenty of good games that are not "venture completely into the unknown".
Xcom Enemy Unknown, Dishonored, Deus Ex Human Evolution, ...... you don't need to be completely new to be entertaining. In fact, it is much more about the polish, implementation, and details than totally new ideas.
Even games like Borderland is not totally new .. but a clever combination of old ideas.
I'm tired of finding a MMO I love and then they change the game to be something else from what it was at the start. This happens to every MMO I have played and fell in love with. The only one that has stayed close to release that I played is Eve Online but it's to pvp focused for me.
What I want you ask? I want a SWG with updated interface and graphics and support that sticks to the core game play. This would make me a happy camper.