Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
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Free 2 Play: LP + LP regen
Subscription: NO LP RESTRICTIONS
Originally posted by moonrunner I have no problem subin, I don't expect to get something for nothing. that said the first time I can't do something for want of LP I'm off to somewhere else that is happy to provide all aspects of the game for just the monthly sub.
Then you wont last very long, actually, building your first house or boat you will run out of LP before you even started building anything.
Originally posted by Grumbs Originally posted by JaedorOriginally posted by GiffenIt appears to me that subscribers shouldn't have any limit to LP (it shouldn't be used at all to do anything if you subscribe). I'm not sure why subscribers still can't do the same things they can in other games without restriction.
From what I've read, the purpose of LP is to slow down progression and keep the economy stable. With an LP cap, limited regen rates and nearly everything using it up, you have to make choices about what to do, which goals to achieve, and plan/prepare to go after them because nothing is achieved quickly.Patience and persistence are not qualities fostered by game devs in the last decade, so it rubs players the wrong way to not be able to have what they want right away. If you want the best, whether you buy it or craft it, it's going to take time.
"you have to make choices" would be true *if* they didn't sell LP refills in the Marketplace. Since they do, this assertion is right out the window, because the limitations can be circumvented by anyone willing to pay. Ergo, the limitation exists to get certain types of people to pay.
Facebook games and certain other "pay to progress faster" types of games have milked the willing, compulsive spender for years now. There are only so many of these types of people in the world however, and I don't think this game will attract enough of them to succeed.
The availability of an extra bunch of LP doesn't break the argument. The 12 hour cooldown limits chugging them and can provide a boost for folks that want it - whether bought with credits or gold.
That said, the limitations on F2P players are pretty harsh. My first beta weekend was F2P and in comparison, patron is a helluva lot easier.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
There isn't anything hypothetical about buying LP pots as a subscriber. Just like in any other microtransaction game there are people that are willing to purchase a subscription and extra stuff. The only difference is in AA the extra stuff can give you an advantage over another player, either through direct use or reselling the items to other players.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
There isn't anything hypothetical about buying LP pots as a subscriber. Just like in any other microtransaction game there are people that are willing to purchase a subscription and extra stuff. The only difference is in AA the extra stuff can give you an advantage over another player, either through direct use or reselling the items to other players.
The advantage is time; it's not like you can't do the same stuff as them.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
Maybe they don't want players going around busting entire tree farms just to hurt other factions by destroying their fields, and penalize those doing it with a heavy LP cost. Not saying you shouldn't be able to do so in a PvP game, just if you do, you will pay a price. I see this as a good thing. Particularly when you did not even need the logs. You want to be a douche, go ahead and be one. Just be forewarned that there is a heavy penalty for being one. These are the types of penalties that PvP games should implement to minimize griefing. Many try but they do not go far enough. It is refreshing to see AA implement them to the extent they have impact. Maybe we'll see a change of behavior with some of these psychopathic PvP players who's only motive in the game is to grief other players.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
Maybe they don't want players going around busting tree farms just to hurt other factions by destroying their fields, and penalize those doing it with a heavy LP cost. I see this as a good thing. Particularly when you did not even need the logs. You want to be a douche, go ahead and be one. Just be forewarned that there is a heavy penalty for being one. These are the types of penalties that PvP games should implement to minimize griefing. Many try but they do not go far enough. It is refreshing to see AA implement them to the extent they have impact. Maybe we'll see a change of behavior with some of these psychopathic PvP players who's only motive in the game is to grief other players.
I agree 100% with this. If someone wants to grief other players just because there should be a harsh response to it. I would really love to see ships decay for pirates where if the ship got destoryed like 10 times the pirates should be forced to build a new one. It would be a Risk to their profession. Think about it in the D&D world if Captain Deudermont caught a pirate ship he would sink it and the pirates would have to get a new ship. Risk vs Reward
Now on the LP being too harsh. This is a Sub based game but because there are already so many MMOs on the market its nearly impossible to make money today. Until alot more MMOs close down we will have BS like this trying to tracked the F2P crowd so the game feels like its populated when in reality its really not.
I didn't realize that free-to-play players only get 1 LP per 5 minutes. In beta, I was getting 5 per 5 mins despite not having Patron status. That seems like a bait and switch to me, but whatever.
The thing that bothers me about the labor point system is that it is solely based on time spent in game. I would like it if things we DO in the game would earn us labor points, rather than just the act of being logged in. The game doesn't log you out after X amount of time being AFK, so I can log in, go to work, and then come home and have a ton of labor points. If free players are only getting 1 per 5 mins, they will absolutely have to do that to have enough LP to play the game.
It's not about not wanting to put in the work. I would gladly put in the effort to earn LP if there were a way to earn them in-game other than just being AFK for hours on end. Maybe there is and I missed it.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
Maybe they don't want players going around busting tree farms just to hurt other factions by destroying their fields, and penalize those doing it with a heavy LP cost. I see this as a good thing. Particularly when you did not even need the logs. You want to be a douche, go ahead and be one. Just be forewarned that there is a heavy penalty for being one. These are the types of penalties that PvP games should implement to minimize griefing. Many try but they do not go far enough. It is refreshing to see AA implement them to the extent they have impact. Maybe we'll see a change of behavior with some of these psychopathic PvP players who's only motive in the game is to grief other players.
I agree 100% with this. If someone wants to grief other players just because there should be a harsh response to it. I would really love to see ships decay for pirates where if the ship got destoryed like 10 times the pirates should be forced to build a new one. It would be a Risk to their profession. Think about it in the D&D world if Captain Deudermont caught a pirate ship he would sink it and the pirates would have to get a new ship. Risk vs Reward
Now on the LP being too harsh. This is a Sub based game but because there are already so many MMOs on the market its nearly impossible to make money today. Until alot more MMOs close down we will have BS like this trying to tracked the F2P crowd so the game feels like its populated when in reality its really not.
WOW!
You two geniuses are aware of the fact that this has nothing to do with penalty for griefing or PvP. It would have cost me the same amount of LP if those had been my own trees and i had needed them.
i began the day with 2000 lp,had not really done much with them,except open money and rewards.i did some mining,and gathering plants,used to just ignore them.did not make a thing,just mined and gathered. by end of day i was down to under 1000 have not even gotten back to 2k yet was logged on all night..the 2k is also for each character in the account.so basically your whole account is screwed once you lost lp.its not like you can make an account for different crafts.than i find out logs and pelt can only be made on farms.so basically the free account cannot craft at all,as you need pelts and logs.what i find the most idiotic is the gliders.really a glider,no flying beasts,no flying rugs,but a GLIDER.the boats are pointless as i can see,since youo can frigging teleport.woo hoo i got a boat woohoo.you need it just once.maybe if they even made an effort to have english speaking npc.sorry this is a poor version of perfect world,with a dash of rift tossed in.
Originally posted by ryvendark Subscribers dont need to buy more labor points though. Its a hypothetical forum argument unless you're someone that puts in massive number of hours. In those cases that type of player always "wins" it judt costs them more.
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
Maybe they don't want players going around busting tree farms just to hurt other factions by destroying their fields, and penalize those doing it with a heavy LP cost. I see this as a good thing. Particularly when you did not even need the logs. You want to be a douche, go ahead and be one. Just be forewarned that there is a heavy penalty for being one. These are the types of penalties that PvP games should implement to minimize griefing. Many try but they do not go far enough. It is refreshing to see AA implement them to the extent they have impact. Maybe we'll see a change of behavior with some of these psychopathic PvP players who's only motive in the game is to grief other players.
I agree 100% with this. If someone wants to grief other players just because there should be a harsh response to it. I would really love to see ships decay for pirates where if the ship got destoryed like 10 times the pirates should be forced to build a new one. It would be a Risk to their profession. Think about it in the D&D world if Captain Deudermont caught a pirate ship he would sink it and the pirates would have to get a new ship. Risk vs Reward
Now on the LP being too harsh. This is a Sub based game but because there are already so many MMOs on the market its nearly impossible to make money today. Until alot more MMOs close down we will have BS like this trying to tracked the F2P crowd so the game feels like its populated when in reality its really not.
WOW!
You two geniuses are aware of the fact that this has nothing to do with penalty for griefing or PvP. It would have cost me the same amount of LP if those had been my own trees and i had needed them.
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Shocked, seriously, you guys for real?
Except the same concept applies. Maybe you will need to reconsider busting your own tree farms or destroying your won fields to the tune of an 800 LP cost. You must manage your LP and consider the consequences of its usage. LP works. It affects every facet of the game in a manner that if forces you to analyze its tactical use. It just goes to show that its function lies at the very core of the operation of the game. In that regard, it is a game that requires thought. Mindless game play will, more than likely, result in repeated frustration and failure.
No, you can't play for free. You can login to the servers, but you can't play. I ran out of labor points. All I could do was farm mobs and open some quest rewards. I didn't do the quests necessarily because they were my first choice, but because that was the only other activity I could participate in other than just killing mobs. When I logged off I think I had like 60LP.
This game combines the worst implementations of sub, cash shop, and energy system (labor points). It tries to monetize you at every single angle.
You downloaded the game, played and spent no money but it's not free to play ? If you don't like the system don't pay for it. Not every mmo has to use the model you deem appropriate. Hell most of the games on your list I wont touch because of the way their " free" works...so obviously one size doesn't fit all. This one, like SWTOR wants people to pay a sub but lets you try the game to decide if it's for you or not. They offer ways around it if you're willing to work for it. I don't see a problem with their chosen payment model...I have lots of issues with the game though.
I thought I was clear about the difference between being able to login and kill a few mobs and do a couple of quests and actually being able to play the game. With a comment like "If you don't like the system don't pay for it.", can I infer that we shouldn't be criticizing their payment schema? It has a real "put up or shut up" tone to it. Why shouldn't we criticize or scrutinize a scheme that is designed around getting people to pay more, in much the way Candy Crush and some other mobile games design their gameplay around monetization rather than entertainment.
I'm sure any publisher that offers a subscription (EnMasse, Trion, Turbine, EA) wants the player to pay it. Both LotRO and TOR are games that want at least a minimum amount of sub time to unlock game pieces. The huge difference between those two and AA is that if you drop your sub in LotRO or TOR you can still unlock systems and play the full game without the sub as a requirement. In AA, much like AoC, you can't.
I'm really curious what games on the list I provided would you not want to play based on the payment model alone? In that statement it seems like you're implying the AA payment model is more favorable towards the player, but it's not. The AA model not only monetizes game system access via the sub, but microtransactions through the cash shop, and rmt through a PLEX like model, while additionally limiting and monetizing your ability to participate in key activities through the energy system (LP).
I'm all for paying for my games. I pay for them. I'm subscribed to one right now and still spend some extra money in cash shops of other games. I'm also all for scrutiny and criticism when publishers try and heavy hand their way into a player's wallet.
yes you can play lotro with out ever having a sub,i did get a sub for one reason only it was to unlock to fast horses.just had to get 1 month and it is forever.you can also buy the maps to use quests or just kill mobs in them.the only way i can see playing aa is with a sub.but than they have a cash shop so they also sell crap.
i have found the healing by healer and pots useless.i have a cleric. my heals does 200hp i have 2200,they pot is have access to are just as bad,there is no point in casting a heal in battle cause it takes to long.i cast a heal on a lvl 15 i am lvl 18 and it did nothing to his hps.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC I don't know anything about the game because it never caught my attention or interest, but it sounds like you guys just want instant gratification instead of having to work for something. That is exactly the problem with this genre these days.
so you have no idea what they are talking about.just had to put your useless 2 cents in i guess.
We've played enough mmo's to know which games really care about the gamers and which is out to to make a money grabbing program. ArcheAge is the latter. There's nothing new in it, except they're dissecting games into the worst cash grabbing scam ever.
Folks, It's worst than gambling at the slots in Atlantic City. I uninstalled after checking the game out and being annoyed by yet another money grabbing cash shop program. Measuring who can spend the most cash gets boring quick and I personally will not be partaking on this disaster of a game.
Even if i'm thinking on playing and subscribing for at least some time, I'm not really sure if I like this system... Seem a bit too restricting for a sandbox, even if it help to balance some aspects....
BTW, do patron players still get offline LP regen on western version?
Except the same concept applies. Maybe you will need to reconsider busting your own tree farms or destroying your won fields to the tune of an 800 LP cost. You must manage your LP and consider the consequences of its usage. LP works. It affects every facet of the game in a manner that if forces you to analyze its tactical use. It just goes to show that its function lies at the very core of the operation of the game. In that regard, it is a game that requires thought. Mindless game play will, more than likely, result in repeated frustration and failure.
It does not need thought, it's extremely simple, a 3 year old will understand it.
Holy cow, i can't believe you even suggested this is somehow a system that would make you think. That is hilarious and sad at the same time.
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Standards for games have severely eroded if this is considered something tactical and involving. Unbelievable!
I hated the LP system and think it was a bad idea to implement it that way during beta. They should have given beta testers accounts as if they were subscribers so they could experience the game as intended.
SUB gets 10 LP per 5 minutes online and 5 per 5 while offline. That should be plenty for most people.
Free players get 5 per 5 while online.
It would be a better beta experience for people if they removed that restriction but then everyone would freak out on launch and complain that they did a bait and switch. . they lose either way.
If I play this game I will subscribe. I do fear for the number of bots that will likely be running around to generate LP.
They need to scrap the labor point system and just sell cosmetic items and exp buff potions in the cash shop. More people would be attracted to the game and the more people they have the more sales they will have in the cash shop.
Except the same concept applies. Maybe you will need to reconsider busting your own tree farms or destroying your won fields to the tune of an 800 LP cost. You must manage your LP and consider the consequences of its usage. LP works. It affects every facet of the game in a manner that if forces you to analyze its tactical use. It just goes to show that its function lies at the very core of the operation of the game. In that regard, it is a game that requires thought. Mindless game play will, more than likely, result in repeated frustration and failure.
It does not need thought, it's extremely simple, a 3 year old will understand it.
Holy cow, i can't believe you even suggested this is somehow a system that would make you think. That is hilarious and sad at the same time.
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Standards for games have severely eroded if this is considered something tactical and involving. Unbelievable!
It may be simple to understand but it is certainly not simple to work with or put into action. That much is obvious by the sheer number of threads complaining about this system. Case in point, I have no problem with the system, and neither do many others who are playing the game without complaint. I consider the system a challenge and, to date, I have been able to overcome the challenge with basic LP management ability. To many on this forum, however, this is the end of the world. I don't get it. We are playing the same game, are we not? So if I, and many others, are able to make it work with the required effort, then it can not be the game. And if it is not the game, then it it must be the players complaining. This is all contingent, of course, on whether all of the players complaining are actually older than 3.
It may be simple to understand but it is certainly not simple to work with or put into action. That much is obvious by the sheer number of threads complaining about this system. Case in point, I have no problem with the system. I consider it a challenge and I am able to overcome it with basic management skill. To many on this forum, however, this is the end of the world. I don't get it. We are playing the same game, are we not? So if I am able to make it work with minor effort, then it can not be the game. And if it is not the game, then it it must be the players complaining. This is all contingent, mind you, one whether all of the players complaining are actually older than 3.
It's not complicated. It's not hard. It's not fun, and that is why there are complaints. There are several games that require resource management and strategy, but they are fun. Those systems are fun. LP is not fun or complex, just annoying.
I don't mean to discount your opinion. It is well noted. I would like to add, however, that I do not mean to portray LP management as an entertaining game play tactic or strategic element to AA. It is simply a game mechanic that needs to be taken into account when playing the game. Without proper consideration of this game mechanic you will not be able to accomplish as much, or realize the game to its full potential. In this sense, those players who are able to best work within the system will be the ones reaping its rewards. Simply that and nothing more.
It may be simple to understand but it is certainly not simple to work with or put into action. That much is obvious by the sheer number of threads complaining about this system. Case in point, I have no problem with the system. I consider it a challenge and I am able to overcome it with basic management skill. To many on this forum, however, this is the end of the world. I don't get it. We are playing the same game, are we not? So if I am able to make it work with minor effort, then it can not be the game. And if it is not the game, then it it must be the players complaining. This is all contingent, mind you, one whether all of the players complaining are actually older than 3.
It's not complicated. It's not hard. It's not fun, and that is why there are complaints. There are several games that require resource management and strategy, but they are fun. Those systems are fun. LP is not fun or complex, just annoying.
I don't mean to discount your opinion. It is well noted. I would like to add, however, that I do not mean to portray LP management as an entertaining game play tactic or strategic element to AA. It is simply a game mechanic that needs to be taken into account when playing the game. Without proper consideration of this game mechanic you will not be able to accomplish as much, or realize the game to its full potential. In this sense, those players who are able to best work within the system will be the ones reaping its rewards. Simply that and nothing more.
But it won't work that way for the players who spend more money on the game.
I've seen the arguments that say that LP is good because it will preserve the economy and keep the markets from being flooded with a glut of crafted items. Or as in arguments preceding these posts, it will make you think about game play. But what is going to keep the economy from being ruined by a glut of resold Cash Shop items? And the analysis or thinking man's part of the LP system doesn't apply to people who have multiple accounts and buy LP. I had been following this game since it was announced Trion would be publishing it in the West, however, I dropped it after I read about the Alpha Founders cash grab. But I've still been paying attention to some degree or another. So far, I have seen that what is supposed to be in place to preserve the game's balance can be circumvented by spending money. It's ridiculous. Nothing will be preserved. It just means the difference wil be that it won't be the ones who spent more time and effort in the game, it will be the ones who used the cash shop the most who will be the power gamers in AA.
Define P2W however you want. But it's not going to change the reality that it will be the big spenders who will set the tone for the game.
The fact that they take a long time to build, are used for SO much and they designed the game to pretty much get you to spend money to get more back constantly is just a big negative in my book.
Every piece of gear needs to be identified, every bag with some silver uses it, every time you do anything thats pretty much not hitting things uses it, far faster than you get it back. I can see this getting worse later on in the game when you want to do a lot of farm work or gathering at high levels. I get they need to make money and the games decent so it sucks to see they are doing something that is pretty well built into the system to make money.
I still find it funny games feel like they need to do this when there are games out there that make so much and restrict so little, a prefect example coming from the MOBA genre with game like LOL and DOTA2 which at most sells skins and they seem to be raking in the cash. If your game is good you would not need to have crap like this, simple things like skins, character changes, maybe bag slots or very minor things like those would sell reguardless.
Now to hope and pray EQN is good and does not do this kind of crap (though my faith in that game keeps dwindling)
There used to be another term for this thing called "Labor Points" it was called Gold. But developers don't want to sell you gold or let you earn more gold then someone else based on effort. Labor points are nothing more than an in-game currency that you can surprising purchase where? In the cash shop of course. I don't see why people have a problem with it though its no different than any other F2P currency other than its used for EVERYTHING like you pointed out, and to try to take away some of the sting of needing so much of it they give ya a little everyday just for showing up.
Gold can be earned, out of gold? Go farm a little, sell some stuff you don't need, work your ass and be smart to make more gold or *shudder* spend some RL money. Out of labor points? Sit and wait or give us money. Big difference.
If I start playing AA hardcore I'm very afraid I will spend more money on it than on a subscription game, the problem is that even being a patron you still have LP, this game is on top of the line of P2P-F2P, it basically has a masked trial+sub on it.
Originally posted by LacedOpium
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by LacedOpium
Originally posted by botrytis Then they shouldn't call the game a FREE TO PLAY Game. Call it as it is - a sub game CS cash grab.
Can you play the game without paying? Yes you can. It is,therefore, a free to play game. Are those that choose to play for free saddled with restrictions? Yes they are. That does not negate the fact that it is free to play. It is free to play ... with restrictions! If you don't want to be inconvenienced with restrictions then you must subscribe. Not that difficult really.
You'd think it wasn't all that complicated but years later and people still seem to think " If I find anything in the game I want and it cost money the game isn't free!!!" a valid argument against it.
The best free to play systems are not the games that give everything for free. It's the games that show you it has things worth paying for.
No, you can't play for free. You can login to the servers, but you can't play. I ran out of labor points. All I could do was farm mobs and open some quest rewards. I didn't do the quests necessarily because they were my first choice, but because that was the only other activity I could participate in other than just killing mobs. When I logged off I think I had like 60LP.
So, you think it wouldn't be that complicated, but here we are, the point sailing right over both of your heads. Don't call the game F2P. It's not in all but the most banal and facile aspect. There is nothing fun about the LP implementation, regardless of your patron status. There is nothing really to play unless grinding mobs and being a gank target are now considered great game play.
And I disagree that F2P is just a showcase for the imminent subscription. That too misses the point. F2P is another revenue model that lets a player pay for the game that doesn't mean committing to a monthly rent payment. In my world a well implemented F2P model will have a few things that a player will really want to pay for that cost $20 - $60, the same as a box price and will let someone enjoy their gaming experience. It will also offer the option to pay more, much more if you can afford it, without completely throwing gameplay and balance out the window. Here are some examples of games I consider to have a great sub-free/optional payment model (F2P or B2P), in no particular order - Neverwinter, STO, RIft, Tera, GW1, GW2, EQ2, and even LotRO although they push it a bit.
This game combines the worst implementations of sub, cash shop, and energy system (labor points). It tries to monetize you at every single angle.
I am playing the game as a F2P player. I may not when the game is released, but during these betas I've been playing for free because I am apparently as cheap as the rest of you freeloaders and refuse to pay to play betas. Has it been restrictive? Yes. Have I still been able to play the game in its entirety? Absolutely. So If I am able to do it, it can be done. Period. I consider playing the game as a F2P player as playing the game in hard mode. But with proper LP management and the assistance of friends and family, of which a few happen to be Patrons, there is nothing in the game that they can do, that I can not. Just because you are not able to play for free does not mean it can't be done, because it absolutely can be done and you know this as well as I do. You just want more convenience without having to pay for said convenience and that's just not going to happen in this game as a F2P player without effort. And yes, if you don't manage your LP and play with friends, it will require an extreme amount of effort. But that is the basis of this game. Those are the rules in this game. Either abide by them and adapt, or fade away.
Your choice to make.
It can't be called convenience when you are effectively blocked of progress, it's called a paywall, convenience is when you can still progress but it is done easier with the help of something else. You don't spend extra effort as F2P, you do however spend time doing nothing because you are blocked.
Originally posted by Jaedor
Originally posted by Giffen It appears to me that subscribers shouldn't have any limit to LP (it shouldn't be used at all to do anything if you subscribe). I'm not sure why subscribers still can't do the same things they can in other games without restriction.
From what I've read, the purpose of LP is to slow down progression and keep the economy stable. With an LP cap, limited regen rates and nearly everything using it up, you have to make choices about what to do, which goals to achieve, and plan/prepare to go after them because nothing is achieved quickly.
Patience and persistence are not qualities fostered by game devs in the last decade, so it rubs players the wrong way to not be able to have what they want right away. If you want the best, whether you buy it or craft it, it's going to take time.
Bad design then, instead of making the game complex enough to make it nearly impossible for a one-man-army they just block everyone.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD its looking like given that I am the only person who is offended that LP system rewards nothing other than violence and dancing that I should be angry with society and not gaming.
You are just a peace-loving hippie. jk
People don't see gaming violence in RPGs the same way we see RL violence, it's a form of character progression, it's part of our society as the violence the Hero commits is always justified. To make a substitute to violence there must be something else more interesting for "adventurers" or some other sort of progression system that requires actions and cunning, like say, you train and spar with other people to get better, otherwise it would be too boring.
Killing things for progress is something that the devs these days are too lazy to deviate upon, better fill the landscape with mobs than do something that requires 2 brain cells to make. Skyrim does a better job at it, with options to remain "mostly" non-violent and making encounters more rare for those who are not actively seeking for it, it's one of the reasons why Minecraft surival and Skyrim are popular.
It may be simple to understand but it is certainly not simple to work with or put into action. That much is obvious by the sheer number of threads complaining about this system. Case in point, I have no problem with the system. I consider it a challenge and I am able to overcome it with basic management skill. To many on this forum, however, this is the end of the world. I don't get it. We are playing the same game, are we not? So if I am able to make it work with minor effort, then it can not be the game. And if it is not the game, then it it must be the players complaining. This is all contingent, mind you, one whether all of the players complaining are actually older than 3.
It's not complicated. It's not hard. It's not fun, and that is why there are complaints. There are several games that require resource management and strategy, but they are fun. Those systems are fun. LP is not fun or complex, just annoying.
I don't mean to discount your opinion. It is well noted. I would like to add, however, that I do not mean to portray LP management as an entertaining game play tactic or strategic element to AA. It is simply a game mechanic that needs to be taken into account when playing the game. Without proper consideration of this game mechanic you will not be able to accomplish as much, or realize the game to its full potential. In this sense, those players who are able to best work within the system will be the ones reaping its rewards. Simply that and nothing more.
But it won't work that way for the players who spend more money on the game.
I've seen the arguments that say that LP is good because it will preserve the economy and keep the markets from being flooded with a glut of crafted items. Or as in arguments preceding these posts, it will make you think about game play. But what is going to keep the economy from being ruined by a glut of resold Cash Shop items? And the analysis or thinking man's part of the LP system doesn't apply to people who have multiple accounts and buy LP. I had been following this game since it was announced Trion would be publishing it in the West, however, I dropped it after I read about the Alpha Founders cash grab. But I've still been paying attention to some degree or another. So far, I have seen that what is supposed to be in place to preserve the game's balance can be circumvented by spending money. It's ridiculous. Nothing will be preserved. It just means the difference wil be that it won't be the ones who spent more time and effort in the game, it will be the ones who used the cash shop the most who will be the power gamers in AA.
Define P2W however you want. But it's not going to change the reality that it will be the big spenders who will set the tone for the game.
There are a lot of suppositions in your post. We can all be afraid of the bogeyman, but he will never really exist until he pops up one day and bites one of us in the booty.
People don't see gaming violence in RPGs the same way we see RL violence, it's a form of character progression, it's part of our society as the violence the Hero commits is always justified. To make a substitute to violence there must be something else more interesting for "adventurers" or some other sort of progression system that requires actions and cunning, like say, you train and spar with other people to get better, otherwise it would be too boring.
Killing things for progress is something that the devs these days are too lazy to deviate upon, better fill the landscape with mobs than do something that requires 2 brain cells to make. Skyrim does a better job at it, with options to remain "mostly" non-violent and making encounters more rare for those who are not actively seeking for it, it's one of the reasons why Minecraft surival and Skyrim are popular.
HAHA!, RPGs make you the biggest scumbag that ever walked the planet.
You murder, kidnap, assassinate, steal, loot and pillage anyone or anything all at someone else's whim just to collect some menial "reward"
I remember thinking this playing WoW back in the WOTLK days doing the daily where I had to build up the Walrus people's rep by kidnapping the Wolverine people's cubs and killing their Mamas all so I could earn Walrus rep to buy a fishing pole.
Comments
Not hypothetical at all.
Yesterday i busted 2 illegal tree farms. I consider this part of PvP and general gameplay to hurt other factions by destroying their fields.
Sadly, it costs me almost 800LP and i did not even need the logs.
This is a perfect example how the LP system is severely castrating the game experience and there is no regen to make up for almost 800 LP used in less than 10 minutes.
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Free 2 Play: LP + LP regen
Subscription: NO LP RESTRICTIONS
Then you wont last very long, actually, building your first house or boat you will run out of LP before you even started building anything.
"you have to make choices" would be true *if* they didn't sell LP refills in the Marketplace. Since they do, this assertion is right out the window, because the limitations can be circumvented by anyone willing to pay. Ergo, the limitation exists to get certain types of people to pay.
Facebook games and certain other "pay to progress faster" types of games have milked the willing, compulsive spender for years now. There are only so many of these types of people in the world however, and I don't think this game will attract enough of them to succeed.
The availability of an extra bunch of LP doesn't break the argument. The 12 hour cooldown limits chugging them and can provide a boost for folks that want it - whether bought with credits or gold.
That said, the limitations on F2P players are pretty harsh. My first beta weekend was F2P and in comparison, patron is a helluva lot easier.
There isn't anything hypothetical about buying LP pots as a subscriber. Just like in any other microtransaction game there are people that are willing to purchase a subscription and extra stuff. The only difference is in AA the extra stuff can give you an advantage over another player, either through direct use or reselling the items to other players.
The advantage is time; it's not like you can't do the same stuff as them.
Maybe they don't want players going around busting entire tree farms just to hurt other factions by destroying their fields, and penalize those doing it with a heavy LP cost. Not saying you shouldn't be able to do so in a PvP game, just if you do, you will pay a price. I see this as a good thing. Particularly when you did not even need the logs. You want to be a douche, go ahead and be one. Just be forewarned that there is a heavy penalty for being one. These are the types of penalties that PvP games should implement to minimize griefing. Many try but they do not go far enough. It is refreshing to see AA implement them to the extent they have impact. Maybe we'll see a change of behavior with some of these psychopathic PvP players who's only motive in the game is to grief other players.
Bet you will think twice before doing that again.
I agree 100% with this. If someone wants to grief other players just because there should be a harsh response to it. I would really love to see ships decay for pirates where if the ship got destoryed like 10 times the pirates should be forced to build a new one. It would be a Risk to their profession. Think about it in the D&D world if Captain Deudermont caught a pirate ship he would sink it and the pirates would have to get a new ship. Risk vs Reward
Now on the LP being too harsh. This is a Sub based game but because there are already so many MMOs on the market its nearly impossible to make money today. Until alot more MMOs close down we will have BS like this trying to tracked the F2P crowd so the game feels like its populated when in reality its really not.
I didn't realize that free-to-play players only get 1 LP per 5 minutes. In beta, I was getting 5 per 5 mins despite not having Patron status. That seems like a bait and switch to me, but whatever.
The thing that bothers me about the labor point system is that it is solely based on time spent in game. I would like it if things we DO in the game would earn us labor points, rather than just the act of being logged in. The game doesn't log you out after X amount of time being AFK, so I can log in, go to work, and then come home and have a ton of labor points. If free players are only getting 1 per 5 mins, they will absolutely have to do that to have enough LP to play the game.
It's not about not wanting to put in the work. I would gladly put in the effort to earn LP if there were a way to earn them in-game other than just being AFK for hours on end. Maybe there is and I missed it.
WOW!
You two geniuses are aware of the fact that this has nothing to do with penalty for griefing or PvP. It would have cost me the same amount of LP if those had been my own trees and i had needed them.
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Shocked, seriously, you guys for real?
Except the same concept applies. Maybe you will need to reconsider busting your own tree farms or destroying your won fields to the tune of an 800 LP cost. You must manage your LP and consider the consequences of its usage. LP works. It affects every facet of the game in a manner that if forces you to analyze its tactical use. It just goes to show that its function lies at the very core of the operation of the game. In that regard, it is a game that requires thought. Mindless game play will, more than likely, result in repeated frustration and failure.
yes you can play lotro with out ever having a sub,i did get a sub for one reason only it was to unlock to fast horses.just had to get 1 month and it is forever.you can also buy the maps to use quests or just kill mobs in them.the only way i can see playing aa is with a sub.but than they have a cash shop so they also sell crap.
i have found the healing by healer and pots useless.i have a cleric. my heals does 200hp i have 2200,they pot is have access to are just as bad,there is no point in casting a heal in battle cause it takes to long.i cast a heal on a lvl 15 i am lvl 18 and it did nothing to his hps.
so you have no idea what they are talking about.just had to put your useless 2 cents in i guess.
We've played enough mmo's to know which games really care about the gamers and which is out to to make a money grabbing program. ArcheAge is the latter. There's nothing new in it, except they're dissecting games into the worst cash grabbing scam ever.
Folks, It's worst than gambling at the slots in Atlantic City. I uninstalled after checking the game out and being annoyed by yet another money grabbing cash shop program. Measuring who can spend the most cash gets boring quick and I personally will not be partaking on this disaster of a game.
Even if i'm thinking on playing and subscribing for at least some time, I'm not really sure if I like this system... Seem a bit too restricting for a sandbox, even if it help to balance some aspects....
BTW, do patron players still get offline LP regen on western version?
"Vidis Fodidis Est"
It does not need thought, it's extremely simple, a 3 year old will understand it.
Holy cow, i can't believe you even suggested this is somehow a system that would make you think. That is hilarious and sad at the same time.
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Standards for games have severely eroded if this is considered something tactical and involving. Unbelievable!
I hated the LP system and think it was a bad idea to implement it that way during beta. They should have given beta testers accounts as if they were subscribers so they could experience the game as intended.
SUB gets 10 LP per 5 minutes online and 5 per 5 while offline. That should be plenty for most people.
Free players get 5 per 5 while online.
It would be a better beta experience for people if they removed that restriction but then everyone would freak out on launch and complain that they did a bait and switch. . they lose either way.
If I play this game I will subscribe. I do fear for the number of bots that will likely be running around to generate LP.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
It may be simple to understand but it is certainly not simple to work with or put into action. That much is obvious by the sheer number of threads complaining about this system. Case in point, I have no problem with the system, and neither do many others who are playing the game without complaint. I consider the system a challenge and, to date, I have been able to overcome the challenge with basic LP management ability. To many on this forum, however, this is the end of the world. I don't get it. We are playing the same game, are we not? So if I, and many others, are able to make it work with the required effort, then it can not be the game. And if it is not the game, then it it must be the players complaining. This is all contingent, of course, on whether all of the players complaining are actually older than 3.
I don't mean to discount your opinion. It is well noted. I would like to add, however, that I do not mean to portray LP management as an entertaining game play tactic or strategic element to AA. It is simply a game mechanic that needs to be taken into account when playing the game. Without proper consideration of this game mechanic you will not be able to accomplish as much, or realize the game to its full potential. In this sense, those players who are able to best work within the system will be the ones reaping its rewards. Simply that and nothing more.
Every piece of gear needs to be identified
but sob, you're speaking about black desert here! don't mix the pseudo sandboxes between them please!
Quest gear won't be needed to be identified in the future. Was said in one of the livestreams.
But it won't work that way for the players who spend more money on the game.
I've seen the arguments that say that LP is good because it will preserve the economy and keep the markets from being flooded with a glut of crafted items. Or as in arguments preceding these posts, it will make you think about game play. But what is going to keep the economy from being ruined by a glut of resold Cash Shop items? And the analysis or thinking man's part of the LP system doesn't apply to people who have multiple accounts and buy LP. I had been following this game since it was announced Trion would be publishing it in the West, however, I dropped it after I read about the Alpha Founders cash grab. But I've still been paying attention to some degree or another. So far, I have seen that what is supposed to be in place to preserve the game's balance can be circumvented by spending money. It's ridiculous. Nothing will be preserved. It just means the difference wil be that it won't be the ones who spent more time and effort in the game, it will be the ones who used the cash shop the most who will be the power gamers in AA.
Define P2W however you want. But it's not going to change the reality that it will be the big spenders who will set the tone for the game.
Gold can be earned, out of gold? Go farm a little, sell some stuff you don't need, work your ass and be smart to make more gold or *shudder* spend some RL money. Out of labor points? Sit and wait or give us money. Big difference.
If I start playing AA hardcore I'm very afraid I will spend more money on it than on a subscription game, the problem is that even being a patron you still have LP, this game is on top of the line of P2P-F2P, it basically has a masked trial+sub on it.
It can't be called convenience when you are effectively blocked of progress, it's called a paywall, convenience is when you can still progress but it is done easier with the help of something else. You don't spend extra effort as F2P, you do however spend time doing nothing because you are blocked.
Bad design then, instead of making the game complex enough to make it nearly impossible for a one-man-army they just block everyone.
You are just a peace-loving hippie. jk
People don't see gaming violence in RPGs the same way we see RL violence, it's a form of character progression, it's part of our society as the violence the Hero commits is always justified. To make a substitute to violence there must be something else more interesting for "adventurers" or some other sort of progression system that requires actions and cunning, like say, you train and spar with other people to get better, otherwise it would be too boring.
Killing things for progress is something that the devs these days are too lazy to deviate upon, better fill the landscape with mobs than do something that requires 2 brain cells to make. Skyrim does a better job at it, with options to remain "mostly" non-violent and making encounters more rare for those who are not actively seeking for it, it's one of the reasons why Minecraft surival and Skyrim are popular.
There are a lot of suppositions in your post. We can all be afraid of the bogeyman, but he will never really exist until he pops up one day and bites one of us in the booty.
HAHA!, RPGs make you the biggest scumbag that ever walked the planet.
You murder, kidnap, assassinate, steal, loot and pillage anyone or anything all at someone else's whim just to collect some menial "reward"
I remember thinking this playing WoW back in the WOTLK days doing the daily where I had to build up the Walrus people's rep by kidnapping the Wolverine people's cubs and killing their Mamas all so I could earn Walrus rep to buy a fishing pole.