I think we have basically hit the bottom, and it will all get better from here on out.
Seriously, I'm of the opinion that modern MMORPGs have actually temporarily devolved. We took two steps forward with the original MMOs, then the whole genre took a step backward to let everyone else catch up, and once everyone else has reached the psychological readiness to dive in as deeply as geeks in the early 2000s, we will take another two steps forward. Meanwhile, technology and graphics have continue to improve, and with VR technology like the Occulus Rift, the future MMOs are going to completely blow us away. But it won't happen until mainstream gaming culture is ready for it, and right now we are in the phase where mainstream gamers are still developing through the stages of gaming psychology that geek culture went through in the 1990s.
The problem that the MMORPG culture faced, I contend, is the same problem that the larger internet culture faced in the early 2000s, which was that prior to that time, computers and gaming were solely reserved for a very small minority that spent a decade or more becoming comfortable with the digital space while the rest of the world just scoffed. Then at some point when the advantages of the internet became overwhelmingly apparent, ordinary people who had never touched a PC started jumping on board. The result was that the whole character of the internet radically shifted, as the values of the mainstream flooded in and overwhelmed the values of the cyber culture.
While the cyber culture viewed the internet as a parallel, but distinct, anonymous reality; the mainstream culture just assumed the internet was merely a tool, and brought in this perception that it should simply act as an extension of ordinary reality. Rather than anonymity, they sought to tether their real life identities to their virtual identities, and thus social networking was born.
I contend that this basic shift, away from a culture of anonymity to a culture of identity, extended into the gaming world, and ultimately undid the MMORPG. Saying that the MMORPG is dead is too strong, but recognizing that something has gone wrong is very accurate, in my opinion, and it all started with this larger culture shift within cyber space. The MMORPG was forced to take one step back.
You see, the problem is that at root the MMORPG depends upon anonymity, or more precisely the ability to recreate yourself. The fundamental source of the magic in a MMORPG lies upon the ability to completely become someone else in a social environment in which everyone is doing the same. It is this basic psychological leap that causes such radical commitment to one's character and community as an entire alternative universe and life is built up and cherished collectively. Taking a year to level from 1-50 makes sense in this type of environment, because your hero's journey is really your own journey. Your character isn't a reflection of your gaming skills in real life, your character is the end point.
None of this is possible without anonymity. Without anonymity the illusion is broken, without anonymity the skinny nerd can never truly become the mighty troll warrior, he can't completely recreate himself because ultimately he can't break free from his image as a skinny nerd. Without anonymity relationships are forged between real life personas rather than through in-game characters, and thus who you are in real life becomes much more important than what character you happen to be playing. The in-game character just becomes a token at that point, easily discarded in favor of another. There is no reason to have deep commitment to that particular character, you can jump from character to character as far as your friends are concerned. Once that happens, being forced to commit to a single character/class seems like a liability, not fun at all, and taking a year to level up seems insane. If the real life personality is what matters, he or she will want to play a whole ton of different characters, and level up as fast as possible, and gather as many achievements as possible, all part of her trophy collection and real life identity.
This is why the MMORPGs today are but a pale reflection of what they used to be. It is because MMORPGs thrive when real life disappears, and after the early 2000s real life began to intrude into the cyber space. That whole period was filled with debate over the "casuals" vs "hardcore", but this was really just an expression of the larger phenomena that was happening all over the internet with ordinary people flooding into cyber space. It was an expression of a cultural shift, away from anonymity, toward turning the internet into an extension of real life. Today we have fallen into the extreme where the internet represents the opposite of anonymity.
But as mainstream internet culture begins to mature, and as people become more aware of the dangers of having Big Brother knowing everything there is to know about you, anonymity and the desire to recreate yourself is starting to make a come back. Facebook isn't cool anymore, putting your whole life online in such a way to lock in your identity is losing appeal, and instead there is a growing desire for identity and expression to be more flexible and less permanent. I believe this is just symbolic of the fact that the mainstream has had a decade to become comfortable with cyber space, and they are now beginning to catch up to where the minority cyber community was in the 90s. For more and more people, the virtual space is no longer just a tool or extension of real life, it is rapidly becoming as important, if not more so for some, than real life. As that continues to happen, the idea of leaping into a complete immersive alternative reality will grow in attraction, leaving your real life behind will not seem strange, and will one day result in MMORPGs that we could only dream of. It won't happen anytime soon, but I believe things will continue to get better from here on out.
Look, DMKano, for all that AA offers, it's a steaming pile of p2w poop.
The tier 9 "Delphinad" bow does 2x damage as the tier 8 "Epherium" bow, and if you just buy credits, spend them on worker's comp. potions, sell those on the AH for gold, buy logs, grind carpentry, sell the lumber to buy more logs, sell more worker's comp. pots to buy the crystals, then RNGesus your way to the best weapon in the game, you can then WFTPWN noobz who did not spend the raw cash to keep up.
The rest of the crafting is the same, if you just buy stuff on the cash shop, sell it for gold, use 5 alts, for 6 total toonz, guzzle labor like a drunkard, you get enough labor points to max any craft in just over a week, and can then afford to make the gear needed.
The worst part is that each tier of gear requires the tier before it, up to to tier 6, when the RNG really kicks in, as only one in 7 pieces can be upgraded to the next tier.
Having figured this out, I am done with both Trion and XLgames.
Yes, AA has music you can make your own score, it has housing, if you were in for headstart ( I was ), it has boats and diving and fishing and and and, it's a p2w grind game, and this is not going to change.
Once I figured this out, it was like poison, there is just no way I can pay to keep up with the reality of a cash shop driven cash grab.
You don't like it - that's fine, thanks for at least explaining why.
The thing that you might not realize is how impossibly rare it is to get best in slot gear - even if you spent tens of thousands of $ in the cash shop every month - you won't be decked out in delphinated gear.
If someone was willing to drop millions and had several thousand crafters - you could maybe get one character fully decked out again the chances of this happening are zero.
I think that's the part folks don't get - the difference between paying $15 per month and someone who spends $1000 might seem huge - but once you see the math of how ridiculously small chances are of getting Delphinated gear with perfect rolls -
it's like someone thinking they will win Powerball because they bough a 100 lotto tickets.
If you like ArcheAge as a game ignoring the pay model (pretend it was pure F2P) then you like the game.
The cash shop is there for rich players to fund the game for the rest - the idea that they can get delphinated gear with perfect rolls - haha are they in for a rude awakening.
Delphi gear is up on the AH, and can be had by anyone willing to pay for it. Which can be done by anyone willing to sell enough labor pots, which can be afforded by anyone rich enough to shell out a the cash shop. It's the most pay to win cash grab imaginable.
I like the game well enough, thou more care could have been spent on many aspects of the game. AA has a huge variety of systems, and therefore of activities to do. What I do not like is how the cash shop just shits all over it..
As for perfect rolls, you don't need that, only the DPS and defense from Delphi is needed.
MMOs aren't dead, but they are definitely changing. And have been for quite some time. Depending on how you view these games, it's in some ways an evolution, and in others a de-evolution.
Those old games were magical, but what a lot of us don't realize is that a large part of that magic came from the fact that they were new ideas. They were created at a time when MMOs were a fairly new concept, a lot less people knew about them, and we were all still wondering 'where is this all going?'. We were like kids (many of us literally), wondering if there was any limit to what these games could do. It was exciting. Obviously there is always a limit, as these games (no matter how imaginary) still need to be created in the real world. With real problems, and real budgets.
Going back, u can see a lot of the flaws those games had (EQ / SWG). Even if they were amazing games.
I will agree, though, that hackers / botters have done a ton of damage to these games (as have DDOS attacks). And it's sad to see these games have to deal with it.
- That said, we are seeing a return to 'old school' MMO design, as most of the kids that grew up playing those games are now old enough to make games of their own. Things tend to happen cyclically, every 20 years or so. Patience. And there's nothing wrong with playing other genres.
However, the days of spending months / years grinding for things are over. People don't have time for that, and there are too many things cluttering our lives already.
Well what games are you talking about as being the evolutionary offspring of the old school mmorpgs? Many people talk about MOBAs, and I think those bare very little resemblance to the old MMORPGs.
I don't hear too much MOBA talk around here.. anyway, this is where perspective comes into play. FOr many I"m sure they'd say what's different today is these games have actual content now, it's not up to them to make something from nothing. That's what you had to be willing to do to have fun in those old games for the most part. You provided the content on your own...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well what games are you talking about as being the evolutionary offspring of the old school mmorpgs? Many people talk about MOBAs, and I think those bare very little resemblance to the old MMORPGs.
I don't hear too much MOBA talk around here.. anyway, this is where perspective comes into play. FOr many I"m sure they'd say what's different today is these games have actual content now, it's not up to them to make something from nothing. That's what you had to be willing to do to have fun in those old games for the most part. You provided the content on your own...
I was reacting in part to a recent post by nariusseldon in which he wrote:
We have way passed the WoW era. It is the MMO in many forms like MOBA, warframe & destiny era. Old school themepark like WoW does not work anymore (though still work better than UO type sandbox .. which is not saying much though).
It is the era of broadened MMO.
I thought this was very insightful. He is suggesting, and I agree, that there are now three broad categories of "MMOs": the old school MMOs, WoW era MMOs, and now what he is calling the "broadened MMO". I agree with his general impression that the themepark, Wow-era MMOs aren't working anymore, but what is rapidly stepping up as replacements bare very little resemblance to what we have traditionally called "mmorpgs", and yet MOBAs and the like are the evolutionary descendents of this genre.
Yep. Dead to me too. World of Warcraft killed it too. I've been mopping up epics and legendarys off and on for almost ten years now. I'm so washed out right now. I haven't played Warcraft in three months. Just made a PTR character to see what is new. Same game only with 1/10 the skills now. I simply cannot play another MMO without relating it to Warcraft.
MMOs are too mainstream now. Everyone wants a piece of the cake. Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons when Homer makes public what the special ingredient is in his drink, The Flaming Homer (Moe). Word goes public now everyone has the same drink with a different name. Same thing applies here.
Very few games differ from one another now. EVE Online is the only exception that comes to mind at the moment.
I think I need to discover another genre of games. Just not sure what. Everything seems to be a copy, of a copy, of a copy.
________________________ Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
can't blame people though ... for them "die" means "evolve to something they don't like".
Ummm . . . yeah! For something to evolve into something else that no longer bares any resemblance to its original form means that original form is effectively dead.
No resemblance to it original is a bit extreme.
Well what games are you talking about as being the evolutionary offspring of the old school mmorpgs? Many people talk about MOBAs, and I think those bare very little resemblance to the old MMORPGs.
The "amount of resemblance" is somewhat subjective. I would say MOBA is quite close to 5 on 5 arena except there peons (which you do not control).
We have way passed the WoW era. It is the MMO in many forms like MOBA, warframe & destiny era. Old school themepark like WoW does not work anymore (though still work better than UO type sandbox .. which is not saying much though).
It is the era of broadened MMO.
I thought this was very insightful. He is suggesting, and I agree, that there are now three broad categories of "MMOs": the old school MMOs, WoW era MMOs, and now what he is calling the "broadened MMO". I agree with his general impression that the themepark, Wow-era MMOs aren't working anymore, but what is rapidly stepping up as replacements bare very little resemblance to what we have traditionally called "mmorpgs", and yet MOBAs and the like are the evolutionary descendents of this genre.
I think the trend is going to continue. Gaming is entertainment, and people always look for something new. I don't think much of the general gaming market (not a few die-hard here and there) care much if the "evolulationary descendents" of this genre have little resemblance to the original (back in UO/EQ) ideas, as long as it is fun for them.
This is no different than the point-n-click adv games kind of "died" and evolves into action adventures.
I don't think the MMO is dead per say. I do think there are a lot of cultural shifts in the gaming industry and MMOs are just one of many things getting caught in the flux.
Before WoW, MMOs were in many ways, very experimental. Each game had its own look and feel, its own interfaces, its own rulesets, and its own unique gameplay mechanics. The differences amongst these games contributed to a lot of their perceived depth. Each MMO was interesting in its own way.
After WoW, MMOs became very formulaic and conventionalized. You can essentially hop from MMO to MMO and immediately know the basic mechanics within a few moments. For most modern MMOs, there is enough overlap that the only thing that is dramatically different from game to game is its look and feel.
Once the industry accepts that it will probably never see a MMO as big and successful as WoW, the better. We'll actually start to see some unique offerings for once. We are getting there. Even Blizzard finally publically acknowledged its MMO follow up has been tabled indefinitely.
A good use case is FFXI. This game never had WoW's numbers. However, it has been acknowledged as being the highest grossing Final Fantasy game by Square Enix. A quality MMO may not achieve the multi-million user numbers, but it can provide long-term value to a publisher/developer. The problem we see today is that products are so similar and familiar, it is almost impossible to engage a user past the first few weeks. That is why we see MMO hoppers. That is why we are seeing more and more cash-shop driven games - because they simply can't sustain subscribers.
Build a quality, engaging, social experience and they will come and they will stay. Build the same thing that has effectively come before, and they will come, but they won't stay very long. And when they won't stay very long, your only option for monetization is to try to make as much money off users before they leave.
You know, is this really true? I mean, for example, skate boarding is still just as huge among teenagers as it was twenty years ago. You would think of any demographic teenagers would constantly be craving something new and different, yet they obsess over this tradition year after year. Football is almost a hundred years old, and yet continues to be the biggest sporting event in America. If new was what people craved, shouldn't some new type of sport replaced it long ago? And FPSers are basically identical today to what they were back in the days of DOOM, albeit with far greater graphics. Sitcoms, fast food, porn, sports, you name it . . . entertainment in almost every sector remains relatively untouched by this desire for "something new". The graphics get flashier and the televisions get larger, but the basics remain the same.
So what is it about online gaming that is different?
Before WoW, MMOs were in many ways, very experimental. Each game had its own look and feel, its own interfaces, its own rulesets, and its own unique gameplay mechanics. The differences amongst these games contributed to a lot of their perceived depth. Each MMO was interesting in its own way.
After WoW, MMOs became very formulaic and conventionalized. You can essentially hop from MMO to MMO and immediately know the basic mechanics within a few moments. For most modern MMOs, there is enough overlap that the only thing that is dramatically different from game to game is its look and feel.
Build a quality, engaging, social experience and they will come and they will stay. Build the same thing that has effectively come before, and they will come, but they won't stay very long. And when they won't stay very long, your only option for monetization is to try to make as much money off users before they leave.
Very interesting post. I think you are exactly right. One of the most compelling aspects of gaming is the learning involved when you play games. I think this is why there is so much interest in using games for education. If there is no learning, the game becomes boring. Many MMOs are so similar to other MMOs that 80% of the game has already been learned before you even play it. I suspect this is one reason starter areas are so incredibly hated these days.
You know, is this really true? I mean, for example, skate boarding is still just as huge among teenagers as it was twenty years ago. You would think of any demographic teenagers would constantly be craving something new and different, yet they obsess over this tradition year after year. Football is almost a hundred years old, and yet continues to be the biggest sporting event in America. If new was what people craved, shouldn't some new type of sport replaced it long ago? And FPSers are basically identical today to what they were back in the days of DOOM, albeit with far greater graphics. Sitcoms, fast food, porn, sports, you name it . . . entertainment in almost every sector remains relatively untouched by this desire for "something new". The graphics get flashier and the televisions get larger, but the basics remain the same.
So what is it about online gaming that is different?
It is not. I actually think there is a lot of changes in all entertainment. Let's just take sitcom and FPS as examples.
Family Ties, Cosby are very different from Seinfield, Friends, Mad about You, and very different from Big Bang Theory, and Jane the Virgin. Yes, they all make people laugh, but the subject matters, way of thinking, the kind of jokes are all different.
And while in FPS you still shoot as in the first DOOM, there are leaps and bounds in the narrative (Half Life is famous for starting the story/scripting craze), and gameplay (from stealth to super power).
The claim that all entertainment is constant is as silly as saying a Shakespearean play (which entertains mostly on clever dialogue) is the same as The Avenger which entertains on dialogue, and huge CGI effects.
Originally posted by Jjix Football is almost a hundred years old, and yet continues to be the biggest sporting event in America. If new was what people craved, shouldn't some new type of sport replaced it long ago?
UPeople are not looking for new sports until all old sports are replaced?
I treat talk such as "MMO is dead" the same way I did when people talk about "PC gaming is dead".
Its changing but until someone killed off the internet, then its not going to be dead...at all. You may not like it but the MMO world does not revolve around you.
It has never been more alive than it is now, actually.
Originally posted by vidiotking Where are these types of games today?
Dead.
MMOs in general however, are alive and doing well.
Exactly. :-) More then ever. Btw, Pacman is also dead, no matter once was my favorite game. But that is now history, just good memories.
You compare ONE game to a whole genre? My favorite MMORPG (City of Heroes) closed its doors. I'm fine with that, though sad. This is NOT about 1 game here gone, one game there closed down. This about a WHOLE GENRE that has changed for the worst, in my opinion.
BTW, you can still play Pacman. I, however, am having a hard time finding ONE MMORPG to spend my time (and money) in. (Please do not suggest EQ. That game has changed so much it is no longer even a shell of what it once was.)
I must admit that it is not really the games' fault, but rather the players who "infest" them now who min/max everything and ruin the whole "spirit" of the genre. Yes, we've always min/maxers in MMORPGs, but not near the percentage today. Players who delight in telling others, "You're playing that wrong!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Agree with OP completely. I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.
The MMORPG is dead. Its plain and simple. What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.
The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.
Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Agree with OP completely. I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.
The MMORPG is dead. Its plain and simple. What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.
The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.
Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.
Are people doing that, or are you simply basing the criteria of a genre on a select game or direction you wanted? All genres are filled with games of differing (or even opposing) designs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Agree with OP completely. I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.
The MMORPG is dead. Its plain and simple. What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.
The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.
Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.
Are people doing that, or are you simply basing the criteria of a genre on a select game or direction you wanted? All genres are filled with games of differing (or even opposing) designs.
Nope. Been playing MMO's since 2000, started with EQ and have played just about every AAA MMO that's released since. So, I have a nice solid basis on which to form my opinion.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Agree with OP completely. I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.
The MMORPG is dead. Its plain and simple. What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.
The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.
Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.
Are people doing that, or are you simply basing the criteria of a genre on a select game or direction you wanted? All genres are filled with games of differing (or even opposing) designs.
Nope. Been playing MMO's since 2000, started with EQ and have played just about every AAA MMO that's released since. So, I have a nice solid basis on which to form my opinion.
Then it must be true.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I would say the depth is gone, replaced with graphics and shiny things meant to make you spend more than the 15$ a month sub that used to a be a standard. Now you have f2p games where you can still sub but where they still seem to release cash shop items to grab your attention and get you throwing more money. Give is back our shitty graphics and massive depth of gameplay and a 15$ a month sub with no cash shop and all be happy.
Does anybody even remember how long it took to get to level 50 in EQ at launch? Most people nowadays would quit before they hit max (or would still be xping and having just as much fun getting there). All the f2p, all the cash shop, all the mmo-hoping, all the negativity and all the crap could have been avoided if mmo's had not lost one simple factor, DEPTH.
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
I didn't like the old MMORPGs. I much prefer the new ones although I'm not currently playing anything. My default state is not playing any MMORPGs so when I'm not playing a MMORPG I don't need to get upset and go on a tantrum over the interwebz on it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I agree with the whole mmorpgs are dead, but not in the sense that they aren't garnering players. We have huge amounts of nomadic players these days, due to the growth in the gaming and the mmo genre. Now why is it dead then you might ask? Those reasons correlates to the migrators that jump from each new mmo that releases; because of stagnant and oversaturation.
Pre WoW, we didn't have as many choices as we do now, but we had much, much more complex games(Aside from the graphics and some fps elements). From Planetside 1 and Ultima online, to Starwars galaxies; where choice, consequence and actions impacted the game world. Where there were so many different options of things to do in the game and no insta-gratification guides and spread sheets to follow, that one could take a path unique and unhindered by most aspects modern mmos have.
Yes there is some reminiscing about past mmo's, but for the most part they were made for mmorpg players by mmorpgs; not people that got into gaming to just earn profits. Old mmorpgs had their own unique feel from each other, through graphics, gameplay and everything in-between.
After the old mmos; we then dawned upon the cash cow, modern mmo that spawned when WoW reach the pinnacle of success and ushered in a formula system that almost every mmo followed afterwards. Companies offered gimmicks and empty promises on completely new features and aspects of the game, but always opted out at the last second due to pressure imposed by the suits that did not want to deviate from the formula. Thus it offers very few differences between WoW and itself. The games shifted to end game content being the best part of the game, and forgo any sense of bonding with your character during the leveling process(I even rush through leveling these days).
Some of the changes were in the right direction such as action combat from AoC and Dcuo, but ended up sinking in other parts of the game, such as end game content, lack of promised features, bugs, glitches, exploits and nothing else to do after leveling other than pvp that didn't have consequences and the gear tread. Along with dumbing down of gameplay and core elements, these games did not try to improve and opted to make money via f2p cash shops.
We got a few indie titles like Darkfall online, (which admittedly is one of my favorite) and others like All points bulletin that tried to do things differently, but were plagued with Indie company mistakes and/or too much catering to their cash cows the casual crowd. Things like hacking, incompetence, bugs, lack of polish and in-depth gameplay to certain things, repetitive gameplay, Huge grinds and in APB's case completely bottoming out of their company that led to the failing of these games.
I'd still be playing DFO(despites its many glaring flaws) if not for Aventurine opting to create the garbage version called DF: unholy wars and alienating most of their player base and ruining the game.
Next we got even shadier indie sandbox mmorpg games that tried to be unique, but failed on so many levels like Xyson, Mortal online amongst others that were so plagued by flaws that rendered them unplayable.
Then perhaps the worse thing that has happened; the cash shops, were introduced and applied to most of the failed titles and to the newly released ones. These try to make you buy from them at any, and all costs and impact the game to such a degree that all aspects suffer, from community to gameplay. Mmo's that should and could have been great like Planetside 2 left a bitter and disappointed tasted in your mouth due to SoE chasing the almightly dollar from the casual crowd, instead of pandering to their Ps1 veterans. F2p cash shop games instead of letting a horrible mmo die; instead allows them to generate revenue from all the gullible players that think they are actually not spending money as they purchase 10 $5 payments of an item per week.
Now we are left with themepark WoW- mold mmo's that won't die because they go F2p and casual players that hardly play; spend money keeping the game from dying like it should. Ie: SWTOR. Now we all have to suffer the f2p element because of this is now the norm due to the casual, themepark crowd.
---------------------------
Despite this, we have gradually seen a change in the past couple years. Themepark is dying at an alarming rate, and the retention rate for such games is so miserable AAA companies have taken notice. Now we are finally get sandbox mmo's to become mainstream once again, with improved graphics and features in some areas(Voxel building/Terraforming for instance), but still not quite as good in other regards as old mmos. Once the AAA companies have tested the waters and make profit, we will see more bold endeavors from both indie companies and AAA. So with the bad comes the good. It may take 5 years or more, but we may once see improvement again and from that the continue evolving of the genre.
-Personal quip:
I think the evolved form of the genre is fps combat, with a complete sandbox setting where players have complete freedom in the game world to sculpt, define, and engage in it. Where politics influence players decisions and actions have consequences. Whether in the form of loss land, gear, or some tangible form. Yes there are tons of carebear players that don't want loss of any kind, but a huge amount of them are slowly adapting risk vs rewards elements through various other games. A mmorpg where each game play type, crafting, pver, explorer, pvper, player politic, or what have you has equal fun gameplay mechanics and impacts, with a grind nether too vast or miniscule, with a skill cap that rewards relying on other players and not being a master of all trades, lone wolf. A game similar to Starcitizen. Although I have my doubts it can be pulled off with this game. We shall wait and see.
Archeage was the nail in the coffin for me. SWG was the pinnacle.
P2W options, advanced bots/hacks, small & instanced worlds, easy/everyone can win gameplay and cash shops are just some of the reasons this genre is over.
I know you can never "go back". But EQ and SWG were magical, and had it right. EQ was actually dangerous, and SWG was a living breathing, player built world.
Where are these types of games today?
I've been playing single player rts.....
Your not alone lol. That is to the t is what happened to me. I downloaded Archeage hoping for something, as we both know got garbage. I bought Distant worlds lol.... The only MMO i play now is star trek online, not for any good gameplay it has lol, just because it kinda in some aspects has new star trek episodes to watch. If SWGEMU comes out thats where ill be, if not then ill go to shadowbane, if that doesnt work out lol, well there always is another hobby lol.
I def agree though, those 2 games you refer to were in a time before the masses, and the big corporations got there hands on it. Its akin to the discovery channel which is no garbage. Back in the day when those games were out and about, the community was totally different. Now everything is just a big corporate grinder, trying to grab as much money as it can. Even the indie people, and their kick starters are all money. I dont get a sense any more from any of these games coming out, that the people running them care in the slightest about the game, or what it means as a creation, other then if it gets people to hit that buy button.
Games like star citizen and ulitma online 2 or shroud of steal your money, really make me sick. Trying to sell worthless garbage, for outrageous amounts. I mean serious in one post, some one said hurry and buy the new ship for a game that isnt out, or even close, for 750 bucks its worth it.............. So when you got a market with insane people willing, to throw apparently money all over, for no reason. This is what we get.
You dont see the car industry going, here ill sell you a make believe seat cover for your car, that may or may not exist in 2016, and they have no idea what that said car is going to look like or have in 2016, but here just buy your special seat cover now. Lol i better shut up, or some one is gonna start that haha. If there are people dumb enough to buy 750 special make believe ships, I am sure there would be some one willing to pay 750 for early access car seats haha. So when you see them do that, just remember they stole the idea from me and mmos haha.
Comments
I think we have basically hit the bottom, and it will all get better from here on out.
Seriously, I'm of the opinion that modern MMORPGs have actually temporarily devolved. We took two steps forward with the original MMOs, then the whole genre took a step backward to let everyone else catch up, and once everyone else has reached the psychological readiness to dive in as deeply as geeks in the early 2000s, we will take another two steps forward. Meanwhile, technology and graphics have continue to improve, and with VR technology like the Occulus Rift, the future MMOs are going to completely blow us away. But it won't happen until mainstream gaming culture is ready for it, and right now we are in the phase where mainstream gamers are still developing through the stages of gaming psychology that geek culture went through in the 1990s.
The problem that the MMORPG culture faced, I contend, is the same problem that the larger internet culture faced in the early 2000s, which was that prior to that time, computers and gaming were solely reserved for a very small minority that spent a decade or more becoming comfortable with the digital space while the rest of the world just scoffed. Then at some point when the advantages of the internet became overwhelmingly apparent, ordinary people who had never touched a PC started jumping on board. The result was that the whole character of the internet radically shifted, as the values of the mainstream flooded in and overwhelmed the values of the cyber culture.
While the cyber culture viewed the internet as a parallel, but distinct, anonymous reality; the mainstream culture just assumed the internet was merely a tool, and brought in this perception that it should simply act as an extension of ordinary reality. Rather than anonymity, they sought to tether their real life identities to their virtual identities, and thus social networking was born.
I contend that this basic shift, away from a culture of anonymity to a culture of identity, extended into the gaming world, and ultimately undid the MMORPG. Saying that the MMORPG is dead is too strong, but recognizing that something has gone wrong is very accurate, in my opinion, and it all started with this larger culture shift within cyber space. The MMORPG was forced to take one step back.
You see, the problem is that at root the MMORPG depends upon anonymity, or more precisely the ability to recreate yourself. The fundamental source of the magic in a MMORPG lies upon the ability to completely become someone else in a social environment in which everyone is doing the same. It is this basic psychological leap that causes such radical commitment to one's character and community as an entire alternative universe and life is built up and cherished collectively. Taking a year to level from 1-50 makes sense in this type of environment, because your hero's journey is really your own journey. Your character isn't a reflection of your gaming skills in real life, your character is the end point.
None of this is possible without anonymity. Without anonymity the illusion is broken, without anonymity the skinny nerd can never truly become the mighty troll warrior, he can't completely recreate himself because ultimately he can't break free from his image as a skinny nerd. Without anonymity relationships are forged between real life personas rather than through in-game characters, and thus who you are in real life becomes much more important than what character you happen to be playing. The in-game character just becomes a token at that point, easily discarded in favor of another. There is no reason to have deep commitment to that particular character, you can jump from character to character as far as your friends are concerned. Once that happens, being forced to commit to a single character/class seems like a liability, not fun at all, and taking a year to level up seems insane. If the real life personality is what matters, he or she will want to play a whole ton of different characters, and level up as fast as possible, and gather as many achievements as possible, all part of her trophy collection and real life identity.
This is why the MMORPGs today are but a pale reflection of what they used to be. It is because MMORPGs thrive when real life disappears, and after the early 2000s real life began to intrude into the cyber space. That whole period was filled with debate over the "casuals" vs "hardcore", but this was really just an expression of the larger phenomena that was happening all over the internet with ordinary people flooding into cyber space. It was an expression of a cultural shift, away from anonymity, toward turning the internet into an extension of real life. Today we have fallen into the extreme where the internet represents the opposite of anonymity.
But as mainstream internet culture begins to mature, and as people become more aware of the dangers of having Big Brother knowing everything there is to know about you, anonymity and the desire to recreate yourself is starting to make a come back. Facebook isn't cool anymore, putting your whole life online in such a way to lock in your identity is losing appeal, and instead there is a growing desire for identity and expression to be more flexible and less permanent. I believe this is just symbolic of the fact that the mainstream has had a decade to become comfortable with cyber space, and they are now beginning to catch up to where the minority cyber community was in the 90s. For more and more people, the virtual space is no longer just a tool or extension of real life, it is rapidly becoming as important, if not more so for some, than real life. As that continues to happen, the idea of leaping into a complete immersive alternative reality will grow in attraction, leaving your real life behind will not seem strange, and will one day result in MMORPGs that we could only dream of. It won't happen anytime soon, but I believe things will continue to get better from here on out.
Delphi gear is up on the AH, and can be had by anyone willing to pay for it. Which can be done by anyone willing to sell enough labor pots, which can be afforded by anyone rich enough to shell out a the cash shop. It's the most pay to win cash grab imaginable.
I like the game well enough, thou more care could have been spent on many aspects of the game. AA has a huge variety of systems, and therefore of activities to do. What I do not like is how the cash shop just shits all over it..
As for perfect rolls, you don't need that, only the DPS and defense from Delphi is needed.
Great post!
I don't hear too much MOBA talk around here.. anyway, this is where perspective comes into play. FOr many I"m sure they'd say what's different today is these games have actual content now, it's not up to them to make something from nothing. That's what you had to be willing to do to have fun in those old games for the most part. You provided the content on your own...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't they the genre is dead. It's just dead to me, and you, and several of us old timers--pre-WoW folk, generally.
There are always upcoming games I hope for, and well, it might happen. Star Citizen is on the top of my list. The Repopulation might work. We'll See.
I was reacting in part to a recent post by nariusseldon in which he wrote:
I thought this was very insightful. He is suggesting, and I agree, that there are now three broad categories of "MMOs": the old school MMOs, WoW era MMOs, and now what he is calling the "broadened MMO". I agree with his general impression that the themepark, Wow-era MMOs aren't working anymore, but what is rapidly stepping up as replacements bare very little resemblance to what we have traditionally called "mmorpgs", and yet MOBAs and the like are the evolutionary descendents of this genre.
Yep. Dead to me too. World of Warcraft killed it too. I've been mopping up epics and legendarys off and on for almost ten years now. I'm so washed out right now. I haven't played Warcraft in three months. Just made a PTR character to see what is new. Same game only with 1/10 the skills now. I simply cannot play another MMO without relating it to Warcraft.
MMOs are too mainstream now. Everyone wants a piece of the cake. Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons when Homer makes public what the special ingredient is in his drink, The Flaming Homer (Moe). Word goes public now everyone has the same drink with a different name. Same thing applies here.
Very few games differ from one another now. EVE Online is the only exception that comes to mind at the moment.
I think I need to discover another genre of games. Just not sure what. Everything seems to be a copy, of a copy, of a copy.
________________________
Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
The "amount of resemblance" is somewhat subjective. I would say MOBA is quite close to 5 on 5 arena except there peons (which you do not control).
I think the trend is going to continue. Gaming is entertainment, and people always look for something new. I don't think much of the general gaming market (not a few die-hard here and there) care much if the "evolulationary descendents" of this genre have little resemblance to the original (back in UO/EQ) ideas, as long as it is fun for them.
This is no different than the point-n-click adv games kind of "died" and evolves into action adventures.
I don't think the MMO is dead per say. I do think there are a lot of cultural shifts in the gaming industry and MMOs are just one of many things getting caught in the flux.
Before WoW, MMOs were in many ways, very experimental. Each game had its own look and feel, its own interfaces, its own rulesets, and its own unique gameplay mechanics. The differences amongst these games contributed to a lot of their perceived depth. Each MMO was interesting in its own way.
After WoW, MMOs became very formulaic and conventionalized. You can essentially hop from MMO to MMO and immediately know the basic mechanics within a few moments. For most modern MMOs, there is enough overlap that the only thing that is dramatically different from game to game is its look and feel.
Once the industry accepts that it will probably never see a MMO as big and successful as WoW, the better. We'll actually start to see some unique offerings for once. We are getting there. Even Blizzard finally publically acknowledged its MMO follow up has been tabled indefinitely.
A good use case is FFXI. This game never had WoW's numbers. However, it has been acknowledged as being the highest grossing Final Fantasy game by Square Enix. A quality MMO may not achieve the multi-million user numbers, but it can provide long-term value to a publisher/developer. The problem we see today is that products are so similar and familiar, it is almost impossible to engage a user past the first few weeks. That is why we see MMO hoppers. That is why we are seeing more and more cash-shop driven games - because they simply can't sustain subscribers.
Build a quality, engaging, social experience and they will come and they will stay. Build the same thing that has effectively come before, and they will come, but they won't stay very long. And when they won't stay very long, your only option for monetization is to try to make as much money off users before they leave.
You know, is this really true? I mean, for example, skate boarding is still just as huge among teenagers as it was twenty years ago. You would think of any demographic teenagers would constantly be craving something new and different, yet they obsess over this tradition year after year. Football is almost a hundred years old, and yet continues to be the biggest sporting event in America. If new was what people craved, shouldn't some new type of sport replaced it long ago? And FPSers are basically identical today to what they were back in the days of DOOM, albeit with far greater graphics. Sitcoms, fast food, porn, sports, you name it . . . entertainment in almost every sector remains relatively untouched by this desire for "something new". The graphics get flashier and the televisions get larger, but the basics remain the same.
So what is it about online gaming that is different?
Very interesting post. I think you are exactly right. One of the most compelling aspects of gaming is the learning involved when you play games. I think this is why there is so much interest in using games for education. If there is no learning, the game becomes boring. Many MMOs are so similar to other MMOs that 80% of the game has already been learned before you even play it. I suspect this is one reason starter areas are so incredibly hated these days.
It is not. I actually think there is a lot of changes in all entertainment. Let's just take sitcom and FPS as examples.
Family Ties, Cosby are very different from Seinfield, Friends, Mad about You, and very different from Big Bang Theory, and Jane the Virgin. Yes, they all make people laugh, but the subject matters, way of thinking, the kind of jokes are all different.
And while in FPS you still shoot as in the first DOOM, there are leaps and bounds in the narrative (Half Life is famous for starting the story/scripting craze), and gameplay (from stealth to super power).
The claim that all entertainment is constant is as silly as saying a Shakespearean play (which entertains mostly on clever dialogue) is the same as The Avenger which entertains on dialogue, and huge CGI effects.
UPeople are not looking for new sports until all old sports are replaced?
False logic.
I treat talk such as "MMO is dead" the same way I did when people talk about "PC gaming is dead".
Its changing but until someone killed off the internet, then its not going to be dead...at all. You may not like it but the MMO world does not revolve around you.
It has never been more alive than it is now, actually.
BTW, you can still play Pacman. I, however, am having a hard time finding ONE MMORPG to spend my time (and money) in. (Please do not suggest EQ. That game has changed so much it is no longer even a shell of what it once was.)
I must admit that it is not really the games' fault, but rather the players who "infest" them now who min/max everything and ruin the whole "spirit" of the genre. Yes, we've always min/maxers in MMORPGs, but not near the percentage today. Players who delight in telling others, "You're playing that wrong!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Agree with OP completely. I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.
The MMORPG is dead. Its plain and simple. What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.
The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.
Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Are people doing that, or are you simply basing the criteria of a genre on a select game or direction you wanted? All genres are filled with games of differing (or even opposing) designs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Nope. Been playing MMO's since 2000, started with EQ and have played just about every AAA MMO that's released since. So, I have a nice solid basis on which to form my opinion.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Then it must be true.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Neaither is about perception and preferences of 1 person...
I would say the depth is gone, replaced with graphics and shiny things meant to make you spend more than the 15$ a month sub that used to a be a standard. Now you have f2p games where you can still sub but where they still seem to release cash shop items to grab your attention and get you throwing more money. Give is back our shitty graphics and massive depth of gameplay and a 15$ a month sub with no cash shop and all be happy.
Does anybody even remember how long it took to get to level 50 in EQ at launch? Most people nowadays would quit before they hit max (or would still be xping and having just as much fun getting there). All the f2p, all the cash shop, all the mmo-hoping, all the negativity and all the crap could have been avoided if mmo's had not lost one simple factor, DEPTH.
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree with the whole mmorpgs are dead, but not in the sense that they aren't garnering players. We have huge amounts of nomadic players these days, due to the growth in the gaming and the mmo genre. Now why is it dead then you might ask? Those reasons correlates to the migrators that jump from each new mmo that releases; because of stagnant and oversaturation.
Pre WoW, we didn't have as many choices as we do now, but we had much, much more complex games(Aside from the graphics and some fps elements). From Planetside 1 and Ultima online, to Starwars galaxies; where choice, consequence and actions impacted the game world. Where there were so many different options of things to do in the game and no insta-gratification guides and spread sheets to follow, that one could take a path unique and unhindered by most aspects modern mmos have.
Yes there is some reminiscing about past mmo's, but for the most part they were made for mmorpg players by mmorpgs; not people that got into gaming to just earn profits. Old mmorpgs had their own unique feel from each other, through graphics, gameplay and everything in-between.
After the old mmos; we then dawned upon the cash cow, modern mmo that spawned when WoW reach the pinnacle of success and ushered in a formula system that almost every mmo followed afterwards. Companies offered gimmicks and empty promises on completely new features and aspects of the game, but always opted out at the last second due to pressure imposed by the suits that did not want to deviate from the formula. Thus it offers very few differences between WoW and itself. The games shifted to end game content being the best part of the game, and forgo any sense of bonding with your character during the leveling process(I even rush through leveling these days).
Some of the changes were in the right direction such as action combat from AoC and Dcuo, but ended up sinking in other parts of the game, such as end game content, lack of promised features, bugs, glitches, exploits and nothing else to do after leveling other than pvp that didn't have consequences and the gear tread. Along with dumbing down of gameplay and core elements, these games did not try to improve and opted to make money via f2p cash shops.
We got a few indie titles like Darkfall online, (which admittedly is one of my favorite) and others like All points bulletin that tried to do things differently, but were plagued with Indie company mistakes and/or too much catering to their cash cows the casual crowd. Things like hacking, incompetence, bugs, lack of polish and in-depth gameplay to certain things, repetitive gameplay, Huge grinds and in APB's case completely bottoming out of their company that led to the failing of these games.
I'd still be playing DFO(despites its many glaring flaws) if not for Aventurine opting to create the garbage version called DF: unholy wars and alienating most of their player base and ruining the game.
Next we got even shadier indie sandbox mmorpg games that tried to be unique, but failed on so many levels like Xyson, Mortal online amongst others that were so plagued by flaws that rendered them unplayable.
Then perhaps the worse thing that has happened; the cash shops, were introduced and applied to most of the failed titles and to the newly released ones. These try to make you buy from them at any, and all costs and impact the game to such a degree that all aspects suffer, from community to gameplay. Mmo's that should and could have been great like Planetside 2 left a bitter and disappointed tasted in your mouth due to SoE chasing the almightly dollar from the casual crowd, instead of pandering to their Ps1 veterans. F2p cash shop games instead of letting a horrible mmo die; instead allows them to generate revenue from all the gullible players that think they are actually not spending money as they purchase 10 $5 payments of an item per week.
Now we are left with themepark WoW- mold mmo's that won't die because they go F2p and casual players that hardly play; spend money keeping the game from dying like it should. Ie: SWTOR. Now we all have to suffer the f2p element because of this is now the norm due to the casual, themepark crowd.
---------------------------
Despite this, we have gradually seen a change in the past couple years. Themepark is dying at an alarming rate, and the retention rate for such games is so miserable AAA companies have taken notice. Now we are finally get sandbox mmo's to become mainstream once again, with improved graphics and features in some areas(Voxel building/Terraforming for instance), but still not quite as good in other regards as old mmos. Once the AAA companies have tested the waters and make profit, we will see more bold endeavors from both indie companies and AAA. So with the bad comes the good. It may take 5 years or more, but we may once see improvement again and from that the continue evolving of the genre.
-Personal quip:
I think the evolved form of the genre is fps combat, with a complete sandbox setting where players have complete freedom in the game world to sculpt, define, and engage in it. Where politics influence players decisions and actions have consequences. Whether in the form of loss land, gear, or some tangible form. Yes there are tons of carebear players that don't want loss of any kind, but a huge amount of them are slowly adapting risk vs rewards elements through various other games. A mmorpg where each game play type, crafting, pver, explorer, pvper, player politic, or what have you has equal fun gameplay mechanics and impacts, with a grind nether too vast or miniscule, with a skill cap that rewards relying on other players and not being a master of all trades, lone wolf. A game similar to Starcitizen. Although I have my doubts it can be pulled off with this game. We shall wait and see.
MurderHerd
Your not alone lol. That is to the t is what happened to me. I downloaded Archeage hoping for something, as we both know got garbage. I bought Distant worlds lol.... The only MMO i play now is star trek online, not for any good gameplay it has lol, just because it kinda in some aspects has new star trek episodes to watch. If SWGEMU comes out thats where ill be, if not then ill go to shadowbane, if that doesnt work out lol, well there always is another hobby lol.
I def agree though, those 2 games you refer to were in a time before the masses, and the big corporations got there hands on it. Its akin to the discovery channel which is no garbage. Back in the day when those games were out and about, the community was totally different. Now everything is just a big corporate grinder, trying to grab as much money as it can. Even the indie people, and their kick starters are all money. I dont get a sense any more from any of these games coming out, that the people running them care in the slightest about the game, or what it means as a creation, other then if it gets people to hit that buy button.
Games like star citizen and ulitma online 2 or shroud of steal your money, really make me sick. Trying to sell worthless garbage, for outrageous amounts. I mean serious in one post, some one said hurry and buy the new ship for a game that isnt out, or even close, for 750 bucks its worth it.............. So when you got a market with insane people willing, to throw apparently money all over, for no reason. This is what we get.
You dont see the car industry going, here ill sell you a make believe seat cover for your car, that may or may not exist in 2016, and they have no idea what that said car is going to look like or have in 2016, but here just buy your special seat cover now. Lol i better shut up, or some one is gonna start that haha. If there are people dumb enough to buy 750 special make believe ships, I am sure there would be some one willing to pay 750 for early access car seats haha. So when you see them do that, just remember they stole the idea from me and mmos haha.