Originally posted by Helleri I was wondering about this word recently. What does it actually mean? I know what the dictionary says it means. Which is in a nutshell is, to be true to claims and resistant to change. But, I feel like (from the way I have seen it presented), that the word has been adopted into our MMOG vernacular as a term that can probably be applied a lot more broadly then it's strict definitions. So, a few questions to the reader:What do you mean when you say Hardcore?What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
For me, "Hardcore" is how the player approaches their gameplay. Hardcore players seem to live for breaking down every last bit of info on a game and its mechanics. Many hardcore player create "Database Websites" for the games they play.
Hardcore, to me, has nothing to do with "time played", as many others think. Playing 36 hours straight through does not make a player hardcore, in my opinion.
I also do not use it in a derogatory way. It is just how some players enjoy their games
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
i think it is already in the name: hard-core. it is something that most of the participants doesnt do for other reason than that they are not interested in it.
it can be that it takes a lot of time or lot of skill or cooperation of a lot of people or any other reason like that.
Originally posted by Helleri I was wondering about this word recently. What does it actually mean? I know what the dictionary says it means. Which is in a nutshell is, to be true to claims and resistant to change. But, I feel like (from the way I have seen it presented), that the word has been adopted into our MMOG vernacular as a term that can probably be applied a lot more broadly then it's strict definitions.
So, a few questions to the reader:
What do you mean when you say Hardcore?
What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
For me, "Hardcore" is how the player approaches their gameplay. Hardcore players seem to live for breaking down every last bit of info on a game and its mechanics. Many hardcore player create "Database Websites" for the games they play.
Hardcore, to me, has nothing to do with "time played", as many others think. Playing 36 hours straight through does not make a player hardcore, in my opinion.
I also do not use it in a derogatory way. It is just how some players enjoy their games
While I don't think time in is an outright declaration of being hardcore. I do think it's a good indicator. I mean, if a player spends a lot of time dissecting the game. then they are probably also spending a lot of time putting it to practice, testing things out, trying to push the limits of the construct. I think it's a lot more likely that a player who spends far more then the average amount of time in-game may be hard core, as well.
I can agree that it shouldn't come with any negative connotations. It is just another play style. Micro-management is enjoyable for some people. And, they shouldn't be looked down on for enjoying the game in a way a lot of people might not.
war hammer guild wars 2 eve online all these games have had GvG in some ways and there you have had guilds and players breaking down the functions casual guilds too. but they haven't done it to become hardcore but too have a fighting chance.
Casual guilds semi PvP semi PvE they usually run 1-2 days of PvP and those two days they don't want to get farmed.
does that make them Hardcore?
casual guilds that run raids EVERY DAY in PvP between 17:00-20:00 but they run it casually because they enjoy the current game mode in PvP but they are not looking into earning money or prices. or get a nice title.....
hardcore players and hardcore guilds is a term created by some scrub in early 2000 he saw himself lonely person and wanted to become special......
war hammer guild wars 2 eve online all these games have had GvG in some ways and there you have had guilds and players breaking down the functions casual guilds too. but they haven't done it to become hardcore but too have a fighting chance.
Casual guilds semi PvP semi PvE they usually run 1-2 days of PvP and those two days they don't want to get farmed.
does that make them Hardcore?
casual guilds that run raids EVERY DAY in PvP between 17:00-20:00 but they run it casually because they enjoy the current game mode in PvP but they are not looking into earning money or prices. or get a nice title.....
hardcore players and hardcore guilds is a term created by some scrub in early 2000 he saw himself lonely person and wanted to become special......
I am starting to see how time in cannot fairly be used to define hardcore. If it is measured by this standard alone. In that light it wouldn't exist. But, through the lens of level of involvement, regardless of time-in. It most definitely does.
There is the "good" hardcore which means "a comfortable challenge rating, game is easy if you know what you're doing, game is hard if you dont". I like my games to be that kind of hardcore.
There is the "bad" hardcore which means "you cannot compete, unless you make the game your job". I avoid such people.
> What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
Not much.
> Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
Akande in Vanguard.
Killing one and the same boss for weeks without success, now that IS hardcore.
The devs claimed there was a simple way to kill Akande, but nobody I know ever found out how.
Nowadays, with the change on the behavioral trends of game consumers and the lack of properly defined "target-markets", a revision of what "Hardcore/Casual" means becomes mandatory.
Above all, I would say that "Hardcore/Casual" is an attitude toward gaming that is defined by the appreciation or lack of interest of certain values: Risk/Reward, Functional Complexity and Degree of Interaction, Immersion, Depth, Plausibility.
What does not define "Hardcore/Casual" is the amount of time committed. At least not any more. I'll give you a real life example, that most of you will be familiar with:
There's one guy called Sam that mainly plays 3 games: Simcity 2003, Medieval Total War 2 and EVE. He's been playing an average of 10-15 hours a week for years and sums an aprox. total of 1400 hours of /timeplayed for each game. He knows what he wants and is loyal to the aforementioned games (obviously), and shows interest towards the franchises and the companies that developed those games.
Then, we have Timmy, who plays an average of 20-30 hours a week but is not passionate about any game in particular. In fact, good Timmy soon gets tired of any game, cannot hold his attention and is usually overwhelmed by games with too many details or too much functionality. Timmy quickly hops to the next best thing, as advertised by the Mass Media. Rinse and repeat.
Questions to the above problem:
- Who's the (real) hardcore here?
- Who would target the Mainstream Gaming Industry?
- Who of the two would have more possibilities of being the community builder in a social/online game? Who'd have more possibilities of being a jackass both in-game and irl?
Edit: Typos
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Well you got it in the word 'hardcore'. It needs to be hard to be 'hardcore', then it is hardcore. Observe that hard does not equal grindy. That just means that you do something, often easy, over and over again. Good trick for devs to keep you playing but is not the definition of hardcore, to me.
Hard means that, in most cases, people will lose unless they are very skilled and even then they can lose. Tell me which MMO is like that?
It depends what is meant by hardcore; a lot of 'hardcore' labels seem to refer to effluxion of time and gated or time intensive content rather than anything related to skill or challenge.
I think that people rightly are less inclined to grind through filler or time sinks these days.
Hardcore in gaming, at least how I've always seen it - is based around how much dedication a game takes in terms of time and how much effort the player has to put in, in order to learn and understand the game and it's mechanics.
A game can be "not hardcore" but a player can play it in a hardcore way.
Tic-Tac-Toe for exmple. Super simple game, simple rules, you can learn to play it in 5 seconds and playing a match might only take 10 seconds. For most people (read: nearly everyone) that is the extent of tic tac toe. However, there are people who go hardcore over it and games like it by observing minutiae that aren't really a common concern.
And that's the differentiating line between a game that is hardcore and one that isn't. A game that is hardcore has a built in knowledge and ability requirement, a game that is not hardcore is straightforward and simple.
A hardcore player, is someone that wants to get deep into the nitty gritty of the game and learn all about all the tricks of the trade.
Games can also be frontloaded or backloaded with their level of hardcoreness. EVE for example is a game that is frontloaded. It has a massive knowledge requirement to become proficient. But once you've gained that knowledge it plateaus and you are "done" so to speak.
A game like League of Legends is backloaded. It is pretty easy to pick up and has lots of modes to slowly acclimate you to the game, but on the back end you start discovering intricacies to each unit, the map, and teamplay that you didn't know before. And it only grows the more you play (yes, eventually you'll hit caps of your own and systemic, but there's a lot of growth).
Then you have a game like DotA2 which has both. It has a pretty steep learning curve just to play the game at a non-horrible level. Then once you've "learned" the game and "mastered" a few heroes, you realize that you're still terrible and that you barely know anything and still may not be able to perform at a certain level (and sometimes even if you can, you might not be consistent).
And you have games like WoW and MTG which are working with the concept of "easy to learn hard to master" to a seasoned gamer (esp one that has played WoW for years), you're likely to raise an eyebrow, but there's still quite a learning curve for new players and that's why you see Blizzard constantly lowering the bar to entry for them. The early game continually gets "dumbed down" to acommodate newcomers, but the curve keeps going to where only a small single digit percentage of players does the hardest content.
MTG is similar in that a new player can very very easily be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the cardpool and number of mechanics. So they have prebuilt decks with little guides and tips on what the deck is supposed to do, and they have stuff like Duels of the Planeswalkers so people can ease into MTG.
Originally posted by Mavolence Personally my belief or take on "hardcore" is that there is no such thing as hardcore in gaming. Hardcore is a try hard term for elitist snobs and asshats. I've played on FFA pvp full loot servers and raided long hours and never ever once considered what i was doing was hardcore or the playstyle hardcore. I was just playing along with rulesets or dungeons i just had a good time doing.
You can take the 'Hardcore' and call it 'toughness' or 'difficulty' or 'ufurnal' or anything else, it doesn't matter. The concept that the term hardcore represents, most definitely exists. Certain games are more difficult and have harsher mechanics than others. This is a fact. Has nothing to do with snobs or asshats. It simply is. I will grant that there are some people who consider themselves better or superior because they enjoy more hardcore mechanics, but it doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist.
Originally posted by Helleri I was wondering about this word recently. What does it actually mean? I know what the dictionary says it means. Which is in a nutshell is, to be true to claims and resistant to change. But, I feel like (from the way I have seen it presented), that the word has been adopted into our MMOG vernacular as a term that can probably be applied a lot more broadly then it's strict definitions.
So, a few questions to the reader:
What do you mean when you say Hardcore?
What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
For me, "Hardcore" is how the player approaches their gameplay. Hardcore players seem to live for breaking down every last bit of info on a game and its mechanics. Many hardcore player create "Database Websites" for the games they play.
Hardcore, to me, has nothing to do with "time played", as many others think. Playing 36 hours straight through does not make a player hardcore, in my opinion.
I also do not use it in a derogatory way. It is just how some players enjoy their games
Very rarely is hardcore seen in a derogatory light, carebear or casual on the other hand......
So, the reason I brought this up. What made me ask the question. Is that my main MMORPG for the last 14 years (Runescape) has recently released a new set of game play modes (which is on top of full manual, revolution, momentum and legacy modes). Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. They both require making an entirely new account to play (unlike the other modes). One that when created can be set to Iron Man or Iron man Hardcore mode. Once in it. It basically from what i can see turns the MMORPG into an RPG with some online elements. It gives the player a way to play in near completely self-sufficient manner (doing all aspects of the game solo and from scratch).
The difference between Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. Is that hardcore mode features perma-death. Which made me wonder "wait...isn't Iron Man by itself hardcore before the addition of an even more difficult mode with perma-death?" and "What about perma-death designates this as hardcore" and "Is that even what hardcore means?"
I had been thinking about hardcore vs. casual on occasion before. but, this was the trigger that made me really want to....figure out what it is.
I think PD is considered hardcore because of the extra stress involved and the inherent challenge of actually needing to avoid death. At least this is true in an MMO when you are putting many hours of time into a character you could just lose with one wrong move.
True...but, aren't there some games that have employed perma-death that don't have a great depth of content and so it's not such a big deal, as well? I wondering if perma-death itself is a hardcore mechanic. One of those things that could serve to definitively mark a game as hard core. Or if like most of what we have looked at so far. It is largely context based.
I don't use the term, but what I understand is that there are at least three ways to use it.
The diablo definition: A hardcore character is one that cannot respawn. Also known sometimes as playing in "Iron man mode".
Hardcore game: A game where time investment translates to power. In these games you don't have to be good to survive, you just have be ready to spend a lot of time playing it.
Hardcore players: Someone who is dedicated and very proficient in a game. Although I wouldn't think being pro is a requirement, I would consider an e-sports pro an example of a hardcore player.
What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
Playing a "hardcore game" does not make you a hardcore player. And you can be a hardcore player playing a "casual game". Yes, even social network games can have their hardcore players. It is more of a mindset than what you play.
Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
I've played a number of hardcore games most notably Eve Online for 3 years. I spent nearly all that time in nullsec, was an FC and a co-CEO so I didn't dilly dally much either. I noticed only a small minority are what I would consider "hardcore players". Reinfocred my beliefs that 95% of people just don't know what they're doing. Strategy and tactics are like a different language to them. Many call themselves hardcore just because they're playing Eve.
I've also been a hardcore Guild Wars and World of Tanks player. Played Guild Wars at a World Championship level and was a field commander of a World of Tanks clan. As the field commander I got a cut of the gold winnings which kept my premium account running. We were quite successful.
Why I got to be good in those games is that when I play something I tend to take it more seriously than most. I analyze, theorize, optimize and train. I can't stop thinking if I could do this or that better. Its not a compulsion either. I like it. I enjoy mastering games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Hardcore in MMO's always strikes me as ironic in the sense that it is generally used to describe a playstyle that skips and grinds as quickly past as much content as possible to achieve the highest level possible. That is the first objective. And then the second objective is to find the quickest and most efficient means possible to gear your character in the very best of the best items. Which usually involves some variation of running the same dungeon that is known to either give a higher percentage chance at dropping the desired item(s) or is superior to all other alternative in some other way, by balancing time invested with reward as effectively as possible. In almost every case the strategy behind obtaining things using these methods will not be discovered from first hand experience, it'll be a guide online. The third phase depends entirely on the game itself and what the end game actually is, PVP or raiding or just sitting in front of the bank looking cooler than everyone else does, or possibly a mixture of all three.
The ironic part is, these so called hardcore players by the nature of their interaction with the game have seen only a small part of what is available. In fact the less they see of the game the better as that wastes valuable time that can spent on being hardcore.
So basically, the means of being hardcore is to avoid actively playing as much of the game as possible while still achieving the desired results. An analogy could be taking steroids to increase muscle recovery rather than getting proper rest and recovery time in to achieve results. I can certainly see a lot of similarities between using them and playing a game this way. So hardcore players to me just look for as many shortcuts as they can, are lazy, and trivialize the whole purpose behind playing games like this in the first place. The destination is scarcely as important as the journey.
Hardcore in MMO's always strikes me as ironic in the sense that it is generally used to describe a playstyle that skips and grinds as quickly past as much content as possible to achieve the highest level possible. That is the first objective. And then the second objective is to find the quickest and most efficient means possible to gear your character in the very best of the best items. Which usually involves some variation of running the same dungeon that is known to either give a higher percentage chance at dropping the desired item(s) or is superior to all other alternative in some other way, by balancing time invested with reward as effectively as possible. In almost every case the strategy behind obtaining things using these methods will not be discovered from first hand experience, it'll be a guide online. The third phase depends entirely on the game itself and what the end game actually is, PVP or raiding or just sitting in front of the bank looking cooler than everyone else does, or possibly a mixture of all three.
The ironic part is, these so called hardcore players by the nature of their interaction with the game have seen only a small part of what is available. In fact the less they see of the game the better as that wastes valuable time that can spent on being hardcore.
So basically, the means of being hardcore is to avoid actively playing as much of the game as possible while still achieving the desired results. An analogy could be taking steroids to increase muscle recovery rather than getting proper rest and recovery time in to achieve results. I can certainly see a lot of similarities between using them and playing a game this way. So hardcore players to me just look for as many shortcuts as they can, are lazy, and trivialize the whole purpose behind playing games like this in the first place. The destination is scarcely as important as the journey.
In my experience, power gamers skipping content is a misunderstanding. More often they just play the game more "efficiently".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Hardcore in MMO's always strikes me as ironic in the sense that it is generally used to describe a playstyle that skips and grinds as quickly past as much content as possible to achieve the highest level possible. That is the first objective. And then the second objective is to find the quickest and most efficient means possible to gear your character in the very best of the best items. Which usually involves some variation of running the same dungeon that is known to either give a higher percentage chance at dropping the desired item(s) or is superior to all other alternative in some other way, by balancing time invested with reward as effectively as possible. In almost every case the strategy behind obtaining things using these methods will not be discovered from first hand experience, it'll be a guide online. The third phase depends entirely on the game itself and what the end game actually is, PVP or raiding or just sitting in front of the bank looking cooler than everyone else does, or possibly a mixture of all three.
The ironic part is, these so called hardcore players by the nature of their interaction with the game have seen only a small part of what is available. In fact the less they see of the game the better as that wastes valuable time that can spent on being hardcore.
So basically, the means of being hardcore is to avoid actively playing as much of the game as possible while still achieving the desired results. An analogy could be taking steroids to increase muscle recovery rather than getting proper rest and recovery time in to achieve results. I can certainly see a lot of similarities between using them and playing a game this way. So hardcore players to me just look for as many shortcuts as they can, are lazy, and trivialize the whole purpose behind playing games like this in the first place. The destination is scarcely as important as the journey.
In my experience, power gamers skipping content is a misunderstanding. More often they just play the game more "efficiently".
And if leveling in the game more efficiently dictates that you should skip entire areas or quest lines etc. (as is more often than not the case) then that's what they'll do.
And it's not at all difficult to play an MMO that way. Leveling up as quickly as possible means you've outleveled a huge portion of the game so by default the vast majority of content in an MMO would no longer pose any challenge to a character at max level. Which is why I say it's ironic that a "hardcore" gamer must spend as little time as humanly possible in the game not level capped. Rush to level cap is more or less rush to easy mode.
In my experience, power gamers skipping content is a misunderstanding. More often they just play the game more "efficiently".
And if leveling in the game more efficiently dictates that you should skip entire areas or quest lines etc. (as is more often than not the case) then that's what they'll do.
And it's not at all difficult to play an MMO that way. Leveling up as quickly as possible means you've outleveled a huge portion of the game so by default the vast majority of content in an MMO would no longer pose any challenge to a character at max level. Which is why I say it's ironic that a "hardcore" gamer must spend as little time as humanly possible in the game not level capped. Rush to level cap is more or less rush to easy mode.
I'd say almost every player will move on when they out-level content. Those who don't are a minority.
Do you also go for every achievement in the game?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This is one of the things I do like runescape for a lot. It gives a lot of incentive for completing content you don't necessarily need to. Questing in particular. A player who has done most of the quests has access to a lot more content then a player who avoids quests like the plague. And, many of the activities leveling up skills provide have some sort of prerequisite quest gating. Sooner or later, to be at the best you can be, requires playing through all the content.
In my experience, power gamers skipping content is a misunderstanding. More often they just play the game more "efficiently".
And if leveling in the game more efficiently dictates that you should skip entire areas or quest lines etc. (as is more often than not the case) then that's what they'll do.
And it's not at all difficult to play an MMO that way. Leveling up as quickly as possible means you've outleveled a huge portion of the game so by default the vast majority of content in an MMO would no longer pose any challenge to a character at max level. Which is why I say it's ironic that a "hardcore" gamer must spend as little time as humanly possible in the game not level capped. Rush to level cap is more or less rush to easy mode.
I'd say almost every player will move on when they out-level content. Those who don't are a minority.
Do you also go for every achievement in the game?
I couldn't care less about achievement systems, but there's plenty of players that do care about that.
The genre has changed significantly enough where reaching max level is no achievement at all. The people who go for every single achievement in the game are no doubt in the minority, because they are the hardcore players, since that would take considerably more time and effort. If gaining a level took 5 days of solid play time then hardcore gaming has some distinct appeal, and I'd gladly practice it myself. As it stands, any 8 year old child could hit max level in 40 hours on virtually any new AAA title if you gave them enough M&M's and Mountain Dew.
Originally posted by Helleri While I don't think time in is an outright declaration of being hardcore. I do think it's a good indicator. I mean, if a player spends a lot of time dissecting the game. then they are probably also spending a lot of time putting it to practice, testing things out, trying to push the limits of the construct. I think it's a lot more likely that a player who spends far more then the average amount of time in-game may be hard core, as well.
Very true, but when I played MMORPGs for whole weekends in a sitting, I was just having fun, not breaking down the mechanics.
While I do not have mega play sessions anymore, I still do not "dig" into the mechanics. I want general guidelines in a game's design, but I definitely do not want formulas.
Maybe that's just me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I've always looked at it how it was used when I first saw it being used years ago. A person who is all about gaming, one who spends countless hours in front of their PC or console. Simple and to the point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Hardcore, to me, has nothing to do with "time played", as many others think. Playing 36 hours straight through does not make a player hardcore, in my opinion.
I also do not use it in a derogatory way. It is just how some players enjoy their games
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
i think it is already in the name: hard-core. it is something that most of the participants doesnt do for other reason than that they are not interested in it.
it can be that it takes a lot of time or lot of skill or cooperation of a lot of people or any other reason like that.
While I don't think time in is an outright declaration of being hardcore. I do think it's a good indicator. I mean, if a player spends a lot of time dissecting the game. then they are probably also spending a lot of time putting it to practice, testing things out, trying to push the limits of the construct. I think it's a lot more likely that a player who spends far more then the average amount of time in-game may be hard core, as well.
I can agree that it shouldn't come with any negative connotations. It is just another play style. Micro-management is enjoyable for some people. And, they shouldn't be looked down on for enjoying the game in a way a lot of people might not.
there is no such thing as hard core players.
war hammer guild wars 2 eve online all these games have had GvG in some ways and there you have had guilds and players breaking down the functions casual guilds too. but they haven't done it to become hardcore but too have a fighting chance.
Casual guilds semi PvP semi PvE they usually run 1-2 days of PvP and those two days they don't want to get farmed.
does that make them Hardcore?
casual guilds that run raids EVERY DAY in PvP between 17:00-20:00 but they run it casually because they enjoy the current game mode in PvP but they are not looking into earning money or prices. or get a nice title.....
hardcore players and hardcore guilds is a term created by some scrub in early 2000 he saw himself lonely person and wanted to become special......
> What do you mean when you say Hardcore?
Well, dunno - depends upon context.
There is the "good" hardcore which means "a comfortable challenge rating, game is easy if you know what you're doing, game is hard if you dont". I like my games to be that kind of hardcore.
There is the "bad" hardcore which means "you cannot compete, unless you make the game your job". I avoid such people.
> What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
Not much.
> Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
Akande in Vanguard.
Killing one and the same boss for weeks without success, now that IS hardcore.
The devs claimed there was a simple way to kill Akande, but nobody I know ever found out how.
Nowadays, with the change on the behavioral trends of game consumers and the lack of properly defined "target-markets", a revision of what "Hardcore/Casual" means becomes mandatory.
Above all, I would say that "Hardcore/Casual" is an attitude toward gaming that is defined by the appreciation or lack of interest of certain values: Risk/Reward, Functional Complexity and Degree of Interaction, Immersion, Depth, Plausibility.
What does not define "Hardcore/Casual" is the amount of time committed. At least not any more. I'll give you a real life example, that most of you will be familiar with:
There's one guy called Sam that mainly plays 3 games: Simcity 2003, Medieval Total War 2 and EVE. He's been playing an average of 10-15 hours a week for years and sums an aprox. total of 1400 hours of /timeplayed for each game. He knows what he wants and is loyal to the aforementioned games (obviously), and shows interest towards the franchises and the companies that developed those games.
Then, we have Timmy, who plays an average of 20-30 hours a week but is not passionate about any game in particular. In fact, good Timmy soon gets tired of any game, cannot hold his attention and is usually overwhelmed by games with too many details or too much functionality. Timmy quickly hops to the next best thing, as advertised by the Mass Media. Rinse and repeat.
Questions to the above problem:
- Who's the (real) hardcore here?
- Who would target the Mainstream Gaming Industry?
- Who of the two would have more possibilities of being the community builder in a social/online game? Who'd have more possibilities of being a jackass both in-game and irl?
Edit: Typos
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Well you got it in the word 'hardcore'. It needs to be hard to be 'hardcore', then it is hardcore. Observe that hard does not equal grindy. That just means that you do something, often easy, over and over again. Good trick for devs to keep you playing but is not the definition of hardcore, to me.
Hard means that, in most cases, people will lose unless they are very skilled and even then they can lose. Tell me which MMO is like that?
My gaming blog
It depends what is meant by hardcore; a lot of 'hardcore' labels seem to refer to effluxion of time and gated or time intensive content rather than anything related to skill or challenge.
I think that people rightly are less inclined to grind through filler or time sinks these days.
Hardcore in gaming, at least how I've always seen it - is based around how much dedication a game takes in terms of time and how much effort the player has to put in, in order to learn and understand the game and it's mechanics.
A game can be "not hardcore" but a player can play it in a hardcore way.
Tic-Tac-Toe for exmple. Super simple game, simple rules, you can learn to play it in 5 seconds and playing a match might only take 10 seconds. For most people (read: nearly everyone) that is the extent of tic tac toe. However, there are people who go hardcore over it and games like it by observing minutiae that aren't really a common concern.
And that's the differentiating line between a game that is hardcore and one that isn't. A game that is hardcore has a built in knowledge and ability requirement, a game that is not hardcore is straightforward and simple.
A hardcore player, is someone that wants to get deep into the nitty gritty of the game and learn all about all the tricks of the trade.
Games can also be frontloaded or backloaded with their level of hardcoreness. EVE for example is a game that is frontloaded. It has a massive knowledge requirement to become proficient. But once you've gained that knowledge it plateaus and you are "done" so to speak.
A game like League of Legends is backloaded. It is pretty easy to pick up and has lots of modes to slowly acclimate you to the game, but on the back end you start discovering intricacies to each unit, the map, and teamplay that you didn't know before. And it only grows the more you play (yes, eventually you'll hit caps of your own and systemic, but there's a lot of growth).
Then you have a game like DotA2 which has both. It has a pretty steep learning curve just to play the game at a non-horrible level. Then once you've "learned" the game and "mastered" a few heroes, you realize that you're still terrible and that you barely know anything and still may not be able to perform at a certain level (and sometimes even if you can, you might not be consistent).
And you have games like WoW and MTG which are working with the concept of "easy to learn hard to master" to a seasoned gamer (esp one that has played WoW for years), you're likely to raise an eyebrow, but there's still quite a learning curve for new players and that's why you see Blizzard constantly lowering the bar to entry for them. The early game continually gets "dumbed down" to acommodate newcomers, but the curve keeps going to where only a small single digit percentage of players does the hardest content.
MTG is similar in that a new player can very very easily be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the cardpool and number of mechanics. So they have prebuilt decks with little guides and tips on what the deck is supposed to do, and they have stuff like Duels of the Planeswalkers so people can ease into MTG.
You can take the 'Hardcore' and call it 'toughness' or 'difficulty' or 'ufurnal' or anything else, it doesn't matter. The concept that the term hardcore represents, most definitely exists. Certain games are more difficult and have harsher mechanics than others. This is a fact. Has nothing to do with snobs or asshats. It simply is. I will grant that there are some people who consider themselves better or superior because they enjoy more hardcore mechanics, but it doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist.
I self identify as a monkey.
Very rarely is hardcore seen in a derogatory light, carebear or casual on the other hand......
So, the reason I brought this up. What made me ask the question. Is that my main MMORPG for the last 14 years (Runescape) has recently released a new set of game play modes (which is on top of full manual, revolution, momentum and legacy modes). Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. They both require making an entirely new account to play (unlike the other modes). One that when created can be set to Iron Man or Iron man Hardcore mode. Once in it. It basically from what i can see turns the MMORPG into an RPG with some online elements. It gives the player a way to play in near completely self-sufficient manner (doing all aspects of the game solo and from scratch).
The difference between Iron Man and Iron Man Hardcore. Is that hardcore mode features perma-death. Which made me wonder "wait...isn't Iron Man by itself hardcore before the addition of an even more difficult mode with perma-death?" and "What about perma-death designates this as hardcore" and "Is that even what hardcore means?"
I had been thinking about hardcore vs. casual on occasion before. but, this was the trigger that made me really want to....figure out what it is.
I think PD is considered hardcore because of the extra stress involved and the inherent challenge of actually needing to avoid death. At least this is true in an MMO when you are putting many hours of time into a character you could just lose with one wrong move.
I've played a number of hardcore games most notably Eve Online for 3 years. I spent nearly all that time in nullsec, was an FC and a co-CEO so I didn't dilly dally much either. I noticed only a small minority are what I would consider "hardcore players". Reinfocred my beliefs that 95% of people just don't know what they're doing. Strategy and tactics are like a different language to them. Many call themselves hardcore just because they're playing Eve.
I've also been a hardcore Guild Wars and World of Tanks player. Played Guild Wars at a World Championship level and was a field commander of a World of Tanks clan. As the field commander I got a cut of the gold winnings which kept my premium account running. We were quite successful.
Why I got to be good in those games is that when I play something I tend to take it more seriously than most. I analyze, theorize, optimize and train. I can't stop thinking if I could do this or that better. Its not a compulsion either. I like it. I enjoy mastering games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Hardcore in MMO's always strikes me as ironic in the sense that it is generally used to describe a playstyle that skips and grinds as quickly past as much content as possible to achieve the highest level possible. That is the first objective. And then the second objective is to find the quickest and most efficient means possible to gear your character in the very best of the best items. Which usually involves some variation of running the same dungeon that is known to either give a higher percentage chance at dropping the desired item(s) or is superior to all other alternative in some other way, by balancing time invested with reward as effectively as possible. In almost every case the strategy behind obtaining things using these methods will not be discovered from first hand experience, it'll be a guide online. The third phase depends entirely on the game itself and what the end game actually is, PVP or raiding or just sitting in front of the bank looking cooler than everyone else does, or possibly a mixture of all three.
The ironic part is, these so called hardcore players by the nature of their interaction with the game have seen only a small part of what is available. In fact the less they see of the game the better as that wastes valuable time that can spent on being hardcore.
So basically, the means of being hardcore is to avoid actively playing as much of the game as possible while still achieving the desired results. An analogy could be taking steroids to increase muscle recovery rather than getting proper rest and recovery time in to achieve results. I can certainly see a lot of similarities between using them and playing a game this way. So hardcore players to me just look for as many shortcuts as they can, are lazy, and trivialize the whole purpose behind playing games like this in the first place. The destination is scarcely as important as the journey.
In my experience, power gamers skipping content is a misunderstanding. More often they just play the game more "efficiently".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
And if leveling in the game more efficiently dictates that you should skip entire areas or quest lines etc. (as is more often than not the case) then that's what they'll do.
And it's not at all difficult to play an MMO that way. Leveling up as quickly as possible means you've outleveled a huge portion of the game so by default the vast majority of content in an MMO would no longer pose any challenge to a character at max level. Which is why I say it's ironic that a "hardcore" gamer must spend as little time as humanly possible in the game not level capped. Rush to level cap is more or less rush to easy mode.
I'd say almost every player will move on when they out-level content. Those who don't are a minority.
Do you also go for every achievement in the game?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I couldn't care less about achievement systems, but there's plenty of players that do care about that.
The genre has changed significantly enough where reaching max level is no achievement at all. The people who go for every single achievement in the game are no doubt in the minority, because they are the hardcore players, since that would take considerably more time and effort. If gaining a level took 5 days of solid play time then hardcore gaming has some distinct appeal, and I'd gladly practice it myself. As it stands, any 8 year old child could hit max level in 40 hours on virtually any new AAA title if you gave them enough M&M's and Mountain Dew.
While I do not have mega play sessions anymore, I still do not "dig" into the mechanics. I want general guidelines in a game's design, but I definitely do not want formulas.
Maybe that's just me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson