When I write the above question I am thinking of the regular Tarren Mill and Cross-Roads open-world PVP that occurred on the PVE servers in vanilla WOW. This was probably one of the highlights of my time PVPing in MMOs.
Unfortunately it is a feature that seems to have become lost to: -
Non-consensual FFA PVP MMOs where other players dictate how and when you play a game, or simply gank and grief in place of seeking a fair and enjoyable fight.
Battlegrounds which while fun create an arena with match-finders and hub-based background queues and provide faction points or rewards thus disincentivising any open world PVP.
PVP zones which are a glorified version of Battlegrounds.
I would add that this situation is exacerbated by: -
Dungeon Finders, cross-server Dungeon Finders, upiquitous fast travel, phasing, excessive instancing and all those other tools that result in hub-based gameplay and an empty world.
Zone design that rarely brings opposing factions into contact.
I would like to see a return to those spontaneous skirmishes that used to occur while exploring an open world and would proliferate into vastly entertaining battles.
Please share your thoughts.
Bravo!!!
Yes, I do remember being involved in massive pvp events between Tauren Mill and were fought all the way to Southshore and points in between. They were truly epic affairs. I also remember some fun times battling near the crossroads too!
Good times we had...
Alyn
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
I'd love to see a company take the risky proposition and introduce full-fledged PvE only. Meaning ZERO PvP and support for PvP skills. Force players to adapt to a more mature and sociable experience where cooperation and name branding mean everything. PvP causes more issues then I care to list but suffice it to say I would love to see a company take such a high profile risk like City State is doing (only with no PvE).
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
bah..WoW generation.. dont even know how pvp could and should work on PVE games..
Take a look at SWG's old system and learn
I totally agree. I never play forced PvP MMO's or go to MMO PvP servers. SWG had consensual PvP (the flagging system was brilliant). In fact, this system encouraged me, a basically PvE kind of player, to dabble in some amazing PvP battles.
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The OP did not state this at all. The OP stated that consensual open world pvp has been replaced by: FFA PVP, Battlegrounds, PVP zones. It was a list without any particular weighting given to the individual items. I agree with this assessment.
As said above, the Tarren Mill/ Southshore PVP belonged to a different time and if the same game released now I do not believe the battles would be repeated.
The OP states that forms of consensual PvP have been "replaced" by FFA etc. causing me to interpret it that way. Of course I could be wrong.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Originally posted by Boneserino As long as I could ignore PvP completely, I could care less what other players do to each other.
That's my thought, too. In WoW, going through Goldshire was a pain, clicking "decline" to all the dueling pop-ups. Chat with an NPC for questing and 4-10 pop-ups appear. Eventually, I just left the pop-up windows unanswered, until I left Goldshire.
I much prefer separate servers. If you want PvP, create a character on a PvP server. If you do not, roll an PvE server. Roleplaying servers could have both available, also.
With the "Mega-Server" fad going on now, I do not see these coming back anytime soon.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
"When I write the above question I am thinking of the regular Tarren Mill and Cross-Roads open-world PVP that occurred on the PVE servers in vanilla WOW. This was probably one of the highlights of my time PVPing in MMOs.
[...]
I would like to see a return to those spontaneous skirmishes that used to occur while exploring an open world and would proliferate into vastly entertaining battles.
Please share your thoughts."
I think that the solution to restoring open-world PvP in a more general sense is simple: Never force someone to flag involuntarily. Moreover, never forcibly interfere with PvErs activities. Instead, just dangle PvP activities in front of PvErs in doable doses with intolerable, non-essential temptations, based on pride, a desire for luxury, and so on. For instance, off the top of my head:
Hostage Taking: When conquering enemy player territory, have taking enemy faction questgivers hostage part of the objective(s), or else the invading faction suffers a penalty of some sort which defeats the purpose of invading. And, when they are taken hostage, they can still give quests and accept quest turn ins. BUT, at the same time, they can also be interrogated for anti-quests to the quests which they normally hand out (aka competitive PvE), extorted for free stuff, and simply humiliated in front of enemy faction PvErs who refuse to flag themselves.
Luxury Resource Defense: Have voluntary player factions compete over certain luxury resources. For instance, enemy players could fight over building competing power grids which allow them the usage of certain abilities that serve as substitutes for certain game addons, such as in summonable sidekicks which help detect resource nodes.
Yeah, this requires some compromise to certain degrees. But, I think that these compromises can be made into fun things, when everything is said and done.
Waiting for:Citadel of Sorcery. Along the way, The Elder Scrolls Online (when it is F2P).
Keeping an eye on:www.play2crush.com (whatever is going on here).
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
Getting ganked while doing PvE is fun?
I learn new stuff every day here!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
You should read the title again....CONSENSUAL world PvP.
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
Getting ganked while doing PvE is fun?
I learn new stuff every day here!
Yes because that extra danger keeps you on your toes. It is like playing EVE Online, that whole game is based around that premise. As soon as you get rid of that danger then the PVE becomes the boring grindfest it is today.
"When I write the above question I am thinking of the regular Tarren Mill and Cross-Roads open-world PVP that occurred on the PVE servers in vanilla WOW. This was probably one of the highlights of my time PVPing in MMOs.
[...]
I would like to see a return to those spontaneous skirmishes that used to occur while exploring an open world and would proliferate into vastly entertaining battles.
Please share your thoughts."
I think that the solution to restoring open-world PvP in a more general sense is simple: Never force someone to flag involuntarily. Moreover, never forcibly interfere with PvErs activities. Instead, just dangle PvP activities in front of PvErs in doable doses with intolerable, non-essential temptations, based on pride, a desire for luxury, and so on. For instance, off the top of my head:
Hostage Taking: When conquering enemy player territory, have taking enemy faction questgivers hostage part of the objective(s), or else the invading faction suffers a penalty of some sort which defeats the purpose of invading. And, when they are taken hostage, they can still give quests and accept quest turn ins. BUT, at the same time, they can also be interrogated for anti-quests to the quests which they normally hand out (aka competitive PvE), extorted for free stuff, and simply humiliated in front of enemy faction PvErs who refuse to flag themselves.
Luxury Resource Defense: Have voluntary player factions compete over certain luxury resources. For instance, enemy players could fight over building competing power grids which allow them the usage of certain abilities that serve as substitutes for certain game addons, such as in summonable sidekicks which help detect resource nodes.
Yeah, this requires some compromise to certain degrees. But, I think that these compromises can be made into fun things, when everything is said and done.
What you are saying is commendable. Unfortunately you assume once again that a vast majority of PvE players can somehow be enticed into finding PvP enjoyable. I doubt this number is actually very high. But you are welcome to try.
The biggest problem however is that now you are telling other people how to play their game. Never force someone? What if that is exactly what they want to do? You can't tell other players how to play the game in an open world situation. Ain't no way thats gonna fly.
Oil and water. PvP and PvE
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
Getting ganked while doing PvE is fun?
I learn new stuff every day here!
Yes because that extra danger keeps you on your toes. It is like playing EVE Online, that whole game is based around that premise. As soon as you get rid of that danger then the PVE becomes the boring grindfest it is today.
I will still take the boring grindfest over getting ganked, any day. Not gonna be a sheep for some else's fun.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
"When I write the above question I am thinking of the regular Tarren Mill and Cross-Roads open-world PVP that occurred on the PVE servers in vanilla WOW. This was probably one of the highlights of my time PVPing in MMOs.
[...]
I would like to see a return to those spontaneous skirmishes that used to occur while exploring an open world and would proliferate into vastly entertaining battles.
Please share your thoughts."
I think that the solution to restoring open-world PvP in a more general sense is simple: Never force someone to flag involuntarily. Moreover, never forcibly interfere with PvErs activities. Instead, just dangle PvP activities in front of PvErs in doable doses with intolerable, non-essential temptations, based on pride, a desire for luxury, and so on. For instance, off the top of my head:
Hostage Taking:When conquering enemy player territory, have taking enemy faction questgivers hostage part of the objective(s), or else the invading faction suffers a penalty of some sort which defeats the purpose of invading. And, when they are taken hostage, they can still give quests and accept quest turn ins. BUT, at the same time, they can also be interrogated for anti-quests to the quests which they normally hand out (aka competitive PvE), extorted for free stuff, and simply humiliated in front of enemy faction PvErs who refuse to flag themselves.
Luxury Resource Defense:Have voluntary player factions compete over certain luxury resources. For instance, enemy players could fight over building competing power grids which allow them the usage of certain abilities that serve as substitutes for certain game addons, such as in summonable sidekicks which help detect resource nodes.
Yeah, this requires some compromise to certain degrees. But, I think that these compromises can be made into fun things, when everything is said and done.
"The biggest problem however is that now you are telling other people how to play their game. Never force someone? What if that is exactly what they want to do? You can't tell other players how to play the game in an open world situation. Ain't no way thats gonna fly.
Oil and water. PvP and PvE"
I think that you are missing the point of my post, which you quoted. That is, you can bridge the gap between non-PvP and violent PvP with purely psychological PvP. In that sense, nobody is forcing you not to violently PvP. Instead, if someone denies you the ability to violently PvP them, then it is because you lost your psychological PvP match with them.
The same idea goes for "forum PvP". You can actually psychologically PvP someone into responding to you, even in a certain way. :-)
So, when you call PvE and PvP "oil and water", I think that you are providing me with a false dilemma which is based on unnecessarily narrow definitions of "PvE" and "PvP".
Waiting for:Citadel of Sorcery. Along the way, The Elder Scrolls Online (when it is F2P).
Keeping an eye on:www.play2crush.com (whatever is going on here).
Yes because that extra danger keeps you on your toes. It is like playing EVE Online, that whole game is based around that premise. As soon as you get rid of that danger then the PVE becomes the boring grindfest it is today.
People don't like danger. That's why, in Eve, they use Titan and Black Ops bridges to gank easy (or weaker) targets, camp gates in numbers with scouts out so they don't have to risk anything. Sure, you can play Eve badly and just face tank without scouting, but no one half-competent will do that. And after you've learned your lesson you won't either.
You should always have eyes on your enemy or spy in the hostile fleet. You should expect the enemy to always have backup, either on the end of a bridge, in a wormhole, in the next system or on the station ready to undock. And you should always check the player from popular killboard to see if he/she is a known hot dropper. Preparing for those eventualities becomes tedious - it is not exciting. This paranoia and fear of losing your ship makes good engagements extremely rare, which results in a lot of boredom.
And the disparity between PvE and PvP metagames ensures that a PvP builds will always have a massive advantage over PvE builds. People like to jump on PvErs because they are low risk targets. They are not geared to fight other players. So if they are not specifically out to trap you, the most they can do is run away. Little danger for the PvPer.
It is rather funny that people who talk about risk vs reward are always out to eliminate the "risk" part as best they can.
TL;DR: People are cowards. That is what makes open world PvP boring for so many.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Bravo!!!
Yes, I do remember being involved in massive pvp events between Tauren Mill and were fought all the way to Southshore and points in between. They were truly epic affairs. I also remember some fun times battling near the crossroads too!
Good times we had...
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I totally agree. I never play forced PvP MMO's or go to MMO PvP servers. SWG had consensual PvP (the flagging system was brilliant). In fact, this system encouraged me, a basically PvE kind of player, to dabble in some amazing PvP battles.
One issue I see with PVP is that you get ganked while fighting NPCs. Maybe a player who has wounds from an NPC or is engaged with an NPC could be 'unflagged flagged for pvp.' AFter the player heals up and is no longer engaged, then the PvP flag goes on again.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The OP states that forms of consensual PvP have been "replaced" by FFA etc. causing me to interpret it that way. Of course I could be wrong.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I much prefer separate servers. If you want PvP, create a character on a PvP server. If you do not, roll an PvE server. Roleplaying servers could have both available, also.
With the "Mega-Server" fad going on now, I do not see these coming back anytime soon.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think that the solution to restoring open-world PvP in a more general sense is simple: Never force someone to flag involuntarily. Moreover, never forcibly interfere with PvErs activities. Instead, just dangle PvP activities in front of PvErs in doable doses with intolerable, non-essential temptations, based on pride, a desire for luxury, and so on. For instance, off the top of my head:
Waiting for: Citadel of Sorcery. Along the way, The Elder Scrolls Online (when it is F2P).
Keeping an eye on: www.play2crush.com (whatever is going on here).
No, the potential for being ganked while doing PVE is the whole point of open world PVP, it makes PVE way more fun by adding this dynamic to it. If you don't want world PVP, play a PVE server....
Getting ganked while doing PvE is fun?
I learn new stuff every day here!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
You should read the title again....CONSENSUAL world PvP.
Yes because that extra danger keeps you on your toes. It is like playing EVE Online, that whole game is based around that premise. As soon as you get rid of that danger then the PVE becomes the boring grindfest it is today.
What you are saying is commendable. Unfortunately you assume once again that a vast majority of PvE players can somehow be enticed into finding PvP enjoyable. I doubt this number is actually very high. But you are welcome to try.
The biggest problem however is that now you are telling other people how to play their game. Never force someone? What if that is exactly what they want to do? You can't tell other players how to play the game in an open world situation. Ain't no way thats gonna fly.
Oil and water. PvP and PvE
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I will still take the boring grindfest over getting ganked, any day. Not gonna be a sheep for some else's fun.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I think that you are missing the point of my post, which you quoted. That is, you can bridge the gap between non-PvP and violent PvP with purely psychological PvP. In that sense, nobody is forcing you not to violently PvP. Instead, if someone denies you the ability to violently PvP them, then it is because you lost your psychological PvP match with them.
The same idea goes for "forum PvP". You can actually psychologically PvP someone into responding to you, even in a certain way. :-)
So, when you call PvE and PvP "oil and water", I think that you are providing me with a false dilemma which is based on unnecessarily narrow definitions of "PvE" and "PvP".
Waiting for: Citadel of Sorcery. Along the way, The Elder Scrolls Online (when it is F2P).
Keeping an eye on: www.play2crush.com (whatever is going on here).
People don't like danger. That's why, in Eve, they use Titan and Black Ops bridges to gank easy (or weaker) targets, camp gates in numbers with scouts out so they don't have to risk anything. Sure, you can play Eve badly and just face tank without scouting, but no one half-competent will do that. And after you've learned your lesson you won't either.
You should always have eyes on your enemy or spy in the hostile fleet. You should expect the enemy to always have backup, either on the end of a bridge, in a wormhole, in the next system or on the station ready to undock. And you should always check the player from popular killboard to see if he/she is a known hot dropper. Preparing for those eventualities becomes tedious - it is not exciting. This paranoia and fear of losing your ship makes good engagements extremely rare, which results in a lot of boredom.
And the disparity between PvE and PvP metagames ensures that a PvP builds will always have a massive advantage over PvE builds. People like to jump on PvErs because they are low risk targets. They are not geared to fight other players. So if they are not specifically out to trap you, the most they can do is run away. Little danger for the PvPer.
It is rather funny that people who talk about risk vs reward are always out to eliminate the "risk" part as best they can.
TL;DR: People are cowards. That is what makes open world PvP boring for so many.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky