Are sandboxer types too picky

mgilbrtsn

I ask this as a sandbox fan.  When I look at a lot of threads, it seems to me that many sandbox fans are too picky.  I read things like "If it doesn't have housing, and it doesn't have open world pvp, and it doesn't have full loot, and it doesn't have X, however, if it does have quest hubs (in some cases quests at all), it's not a sandbox and I won't play it"

It seems to me that we can be a bit too rigid.  Every game has some sandbox element, whether it be a very small amount or a very large amount.  I think if we too picky and won't support some games that don't live up to the perfect game(which will never exist), a lot of decent games are going to go belly up, and developers are going to stop trying to cater to us.   The more sandbox we want, the more niche it becomes and while developers are willing to come some way to the niche group, they have to temper it with a wider appeal.

In addition, it means that we don't allow ourselves to enjoy some of the offerings because of this rigidity.

Bladestrom

There is nothing wrong with being picky, its what being part of a niche is all about.  It is only an issue if a company is aiming for 17 billion proflt per month. 

Muke

Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

I ask this as a sandbox fan.  When I look at a lot of threads, it seems to me that many sandbox fans are too picky.  I read things like "If it doesn't have housing, and it doesn't have open world pvp, and it doesn't have full loot, and it doesn't have X, however, if it does have quest hubs (in some cases quests at all), it's not a sandbox and I won't play it"

It seems to me that we can be a bit too rigid.  Every game has some sandbox element, whether it be a very small amount or a very large amount.  I think if we too picky and won't support some games that don't live up to the perfect game(which will never exist), a lot of decent games are going to go belly up, and developers are going to stop trying to cater to us.   The more sandbox we want, the more niche it becomes and while developers are willing to come some way to the niche group, they have to temper it with a wider appeal.

In addition, it means that we don't allow ourselves to enjoy some of the offerings because of this rigidity.

My experience is that sandbox types -including myself- want freedom and a online 'world without linear grind+endgame' and are wary of anything a developer throws at them that looks like a carrot and a cashcow.

Personally I also look from a financial perspective, I want to keep playing a game; I don't like the "been there, done that, throw the game on the shelve" experience.

 

 

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Mardukk

Lol, it's tough to be picky when we have Eve, Darkfall,  15 year old MMO's and a bit of Archeage as the only games with any sandbox elements.  I've been playing Darkfall for the past year and a half and I don't like PvP, if that tells you anything.

sunandshadow

I don't think pickiness is something people have very much control over.  If something appeals to you it appeals to you, if it repulses you it repulses you.  You can reduce the intensity of that feeling some by ignoring it, but you can't transform dislike into like.

azzamasin

I don't think I'm being picky when I state all I want is a PvE focused, Exploration Centric, Open-World Sandbox in the vein of an Asheron's Call.

Gruug

I has more to do with the idea that people have played different sandbox mmo's that they liked. If is hard to satisfy people when they aren't served the same or very close to the same in newer mmo's. Everyone that likes sandbox would agree that we need more sandbox and less themepark only mmo's. We just have a different picture of what that might be.

 

Distopia

Originally posted by Bladestrom
There is nothing wrong with being picky, its what being part of a niche is all about.  It is only an issue if a company is aiming for 17 billion proflt per month. 

Hmm sounds good at first, yet then I think about the typical talking point around here... "there's nothing good to play"... and it doesn't sound so good.

sunandshadow

Originally posted by azzamasin
I don't think I'm being picky when I state all I want is a PvE focused, Exploration Centric, Open-World Sandbox in the vein of an Asheron's Call.

That doesn't sound too far from what I wish for - I'm looking for a PvE-focused, crafting/farming/pet centric sandbox like a grown-up and combatified version of a Harvest Moon.  Or a more solo-friendly, prettier/more customizable, combatified, and storyified version of A Tale In The Desert.  (I'm a sandpark fan rather than a sandbox fan, but there's room for negotiation there.)

Thebeasttt

Too picky are you serious? Have you seen the crap that's been slung to us over the past 10 years? Most sandbox fans are playing WoW right now because the alternatives are so terrible we have no choice. Even themeparks are having a rough time making anything not gag worthy let alone sandboxes, most of which feel like they're on a 100 dollar budget(aka Darkfall).

 

Many sandbox fans are even looking to Project Gorgon to save them and if you've ever played that game it will tell you everything you need to know about how low our standards are becoming.....

waynejr2

Originally posted by Bladestrom

There is nothing wrong with being picky, its what being part of a niche is all about.  It is only an issue if a company is aiming for 17 billion proflt per month. 

 

Well, sure you can be picky. IMO what IS WRONG is to be picky then bitch and moan that nothing measures up to your picky standards.

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aesperus

Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

I ask this as a sandbox fan.  When I look at a lot of threads, it seems to me that many sandbox fans are too picky.  I read things like "If it doesn't have housing, and it doesn't have open world pvp, and it doesn't have full loot, and it doesn't have X, however, if it does have quest hubs (in some cases quests at all), it's not a sandbox and I won't play it"

It seems to me that we can be a bit too rigid.  Every game has some sandbox element, whether it be a very small amount or a very large amount.  I think if we too picky and won't support some games that don't live up to the perfect game(which will never exist), a lot of decent games are going to go belly up, and developers are going to stop trying to cater to us.   The more sandbox we want, the more niche it becomes and while developers are willing to come some way to the niche group, they have to temper it with a wider appeal.

In addition, it means that we don't allow ourselves to enjoy some of the offerings because of this rigidity.

I dont think this problem is limited to sandbox fans. Everyone is guilty of this to some degree.

We have become picky, extremely picky. And if you spend times on the forums you can see that there are quite a few people who are picky to the point of being unrealistic. And that's when it becomes a problem.

For a while now we've treated games like shopping lists. Writing up a list of features, and then scrutinizing every new game based on our own personal list. Which btw is different for each person. This severely limits a person's ability to enjoy new experiences, and most of us never realize this. We simply think back to our first new experience (our first sandbox in this case) and wonder why more things aren't like that one, missing potentially great experiences in the process.

I've enjoyed some of the old classic sandboxes in the past, but I'm not fooling myself to think that I'd be able to play the same games now. There just isn't enough time to enjoy those types of games anymore, as sad as that may be.

Deathage

Being a sandbox fan, I can say that I have a personal vision of what I think a sandbox should be, how it should be implemented, rule sets/ variable rule sets for different servers, etc. But I would be more than happy to play a game that I thought got it MOSTLY right. That is, an open world with enough depth to keep my attention, and combat that is satisfying and more-or-less skill based.

sportsfan

Fact: True sandbox doesn't exist.

Some players simply confuse badly made, unfinished products that like to hide their incompetence under the umbrella of "sandbox  games" with the real thing.

/Thread closed.

 

mgilbrtsn

I think being too rigid can seriously hinder future enjoyment.  Everyone has a vision of the perfect game.  I like X from this game, Y from that game, Z from from another game and if they  put them all in a single game, I'll be happy.

It won't happen, and you may end up one of those bitter old gamers who continually proclaims the death of MMOs, and/or the "I remember UO and unless I get something like it, everything else sucks"

This mindset can apply to all gamers, but it seems that us sandboxers are at the forefront of this attitude.  I can honestly say that I want more sandbox style games.  I can also say that it doesn't have to be the second coming of sandboxes for me to give it a try.  Not everyone is rigid, and there are plently of us out there, I think.  It just seems to me, when I'm reading threads about the subject, the sandbox types seem to be more vehement in their requirements than themepark fans.

Quizzical

As I see it, this is an empirical question.  If you think you're a sandbox fan and don't like a lot of sandbox games, but have found several that you really did like, you're not being too picky.  If you think you're a sandbox fan but have never found a sandbox game that you liked, or your only example of one is "game X before some date about a decade ago", then yeah, you're being too picky.

Dullahan

Yes, we are picky.  Everyone wants their favorite sandbox features from every game including those that havent come out yet.

Thing thats still funny to me is, I'd say no less than 80% of the people who talk about sandbox this and that, still don't even understand that sandbox simply means freedom.  Things like quests don't necessarily break the sandbox code.

Now truth be told, a decent sandbox game hasn't come out in years.  The best one in forever was ArcheAge and it was completely ruined by hacks, bots, dupers and excessive RNG that forced too many players to Pay2Win it.  That and there was really nothing to accomplish beyond crafting gear and amassing wealth.

Purutzil

I think the biggest problem is most "I want a sandbox" types don't really know what they want. I suppose you could say its being picky, though they are simply crying for something they don't really want/need. Not all players of course, but a majority just seem to be using it as some sort of red herring when sandbox isn't something they care that much for. 

Dullahan

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Dullahan

Yes, we are picky.  Everyone wants their favorite sandbox features from every game including those that havent come out yet.

Thing thats still funny to me is, I'd say no less than 80% of the people who talk about sandbox this and that, still don't even understand that sandbox simply means freedom.  Things like quests don't necessarily break the sandbox code.

Now truth be told, a decent sandbox game hasn't come out in years.  The best one in forever was ArcheAge and it was completely ruined by hacks, bots, dupers and excessive RNG that forced too many players to Pay2Win it.  That and there was really nothing to accomplish beyond crafting gear and amassing wealth.

Sandbox does not simply mean freedom - it means complete freedom without any boundaries.

Sandbox gameplay means the players are given tools to create and alter gameplay mechanics.

In a 100% sandbox game - players would have complete control over every variable of gameplay - including things like inverting gravity, HP pools, spawn rates and loot tables, creating completely custom rules.

Do you want to play an invicible dragon god that shoots laser beams out of his butt - in a 100% sandbox game you could be that.

 

Like a moth to the flame, someone comes in to "correct" a simple statement with semantics.

What you are forgetting about sandbox games however, is that they are still games.  Giving players all the tools to "create" everything changes the nature of the beast from a mere game to something else.  There were some "hard-coded" rules in every sandbox game ever, and they did not, nor will not lose their sandbox qualification because people try to enforce some new sandbox code upon them.

Still, its true the more options or freedom a game has to offer, the more it qualifies as sandbox.  Just don't expect any game to ever meet the criteria you're claiming must exist to be truly sandbox.  It will literally never happen.

mrneurosis

Not picky just minority and unfortunate. 

Dullahan

Also, tho we are picky, its not like we've had many games to choose from in the last decade since the days of Ultima and SWG.  Other than Darkfail, its taken until 2014 for developers to even acknowledge that sandbox stands to provide players with a more engaging, better long term solution for the MMORPG.  Even then its mostly been Korean developers and they can't seem to resist the temptation of allowing players to pay for power.

Grimlock22

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Dullahan

Yes, we are picky.  Everyone wants their favorite sandbox features from every game including those that havent come out yet.

Thing thats still funny to me is, I'd say no less than 80% of the people who talk about sandbox this and that, still don't even understand that sandbox simply means freedom.  Things like quests don't necessarily break the sandbox code.

Now truth be told, a decent sandbox game hasn't come out in years.  The best one in forever was ArcheAge and it was completely ruined by hacks, bots, dupers and excessive RNG that forced too many players to Pay2Win it.  That and there was really nothing to accomplish beyond crafting gear and amassing wealth.

Sandbox does not simply mean freedom - it means complete freedom without any boundaries.

Sandbox gameplay means the players are given tools to create and alter gameplay mechanics.

In a 100% sandbox game - players would have complete control over every variable of gameplay - including things like inverting gravity, HP pools, spawn rates and loot tables, creating completely custom rules.

Do you want to play an invicible dragon god that shoots laser beams out of his butt - in a 100% sandbox game you could be that.

 

New flash!  There are boundaries in all sandboxes.  Go take a look at that pretty picture you posted on the last previous page.  See those wooden board?  Those are boundaries.  

While what you say may technically be accurate as far as what a pure 100% sandbox game would be! it's not attainable and not realistic, so why bother spouting it?  Look at Minecraft, it's about as close to a pure sandbox, but there are still limits to what you can do.  Why not stick to realistic expectations and suggestions for a sandbox?

What a fun game.  Hey I'm an invincible dragon and you're an invincible dragon, let's fight.  Hours later, nobody is hurt...lotta fun!

Edit - just saw your new post.  I also did not read your post as you intended.  Your new post makes more sense.  I concur with your new point.

goofy3k

The problem is not that we are picky at all. It's that we have played those great mmo's such as UO, SWG etc and we know it can be done and well. Games which were never even touted as "sandbox" yet were more sandbox than games now who claim to be sandbox. It's a joke, the mmo industry has become solely about money and what sells. There is no passion, people create trash so they can sell you the game, then your sub, then cash shops to squeeze out any money you might be holding out on. The great days of mmo's are over, that is the problem. "Sandbox" has become just another marketing term so some company can fool you and rob you of some more money, while giving you a plate of steaming turd.

Loke666

Originally posted by Bladestrom
There is nothing wrong with being picky, its what being part of a niche is all about.  It is only an issue if a company is aiming for 17 billion proflt per month. 

Agreed, but you should also consider how fun the game is to play as well. Many games that do have everything most sandboxers considers a sandbox are not very fun to play and playing something rather boring just because it have all features you want isn't good either. And not trying a game because it have a single of a few features might make you miss out on a game you really would have loved.

If you can find a really fun game you like you want it then it is perfect but I honestly never played the perfect game so I settle for something that at least is fun to play. I rather play something further from what I really want that is fun then curse something with all the right features but doesn't implement them right.

Then again, everyone should make their own decisions.