This is a serious question, because I keep seeing people insist it is not just because you will not be able to buy the ships with RL money after it releases. The problem is you CAN buy them now with RL money. How is it people spending $1000's of dollars on ships today are not paying to win from day 1 while the rest of us are flying around in our poor man newbie ships? If you are more powerful from day 1 you will be more powerful day 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on. So I can eventually afford to buy your $1000 ship in game after a couple months of playing, by then where is the guy who started with that ship?
Seriously, explain to me how this is not pay to win without the "no one is forcing you to buy anything" cliche, and without telling me everything will be available in game for game currency. I get both of those concepts, but it walks and talks like a duck, to me it is a duck. Convince me otherwise please, because so far I don't get it.
I am not really sure. At some points I personaly consider founder packs with acces to the game already a P2W situation cause you can't really beat experiance. But with SC there isn't much game apart for a few selected backers...as far I know.
But that's just me talking as I don't give a S#@ what someone else has bought, aslong I get the oppertunity to get on a equel level at some point. Sure it might take me longer but as long the journey is fun but I simply play game for different reason then some or many might play them.
So no for now I don't consider SC pay to win.
Only wished we would see less shipdesign's and more actuall gameplay apart from some demo's.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
Pay2win is the ability to buy items which are achievable trough normal gameplay and that are better than the items acievable trough normal gameplay.
Why do the items need to be better in order for it to be pay to win? It's a silly distinction.
This is pay2belazy. Not everybody have time to farm. Speaking for myself i want to jump in a ship have one hour of gameplay pewpew and call it a day.
You can sugar coat it all you want... but it's paytowin.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
Pay2win is the ability to buy items which are achievable trough normal gameplay and that are better than the items acievable trough normal gameplay.
Why do the items need to be better in order for it to be pay to win? It's a silly distinction.
This is pay2belazy. Not everybody have time to farm. Speaking for myself i want to jump in a ship have one hour of gameplay pewpew and call it a day.
You can sugar coat it all you want... but it's paytowin.
Buddy , in your mind anything can be pay2win. I mentioned just the general accepted definition.
And 250$ or 60 hours playing game looks like a fair deal for all sides.
Why don;t you make a game without any money beeing purely free. Nothing stops you, top game engines are for free, convince programers and 3d artist to work for free and show us how it is done.
Until then show some respect to the developers and to the people paying for the game to be made.
Originally posted by Dreamo84 I'd be rather pissed if I paid $1,000 for a ship that someone can earn in game in two months lol.
I would be pissed if someone could pay for a ship I spent two months working for ingame.
Sadly that is where this genre is going. Get stuff now, pay a little and in the end, whatever side of the wallet, what people achieve in game is meaningless. Apart from the fun. But fun can be had elsewhere in other genres, what you want from an MMORPG is meaningful progression to you and the people around you. Bringing wallets into the game will make both sides not care.
And then the world the devs have built, will feel bland and a place where nothing really matters. So why play the game.
I am baffled why MMORPG fans even defend "P2 win/progress/time saving whatever you want to call it these days". It is like going to a pub, and put in a coin slot on the pool table. If you put in a coin, you get a extra shot. That sounds fun doesnt it!
Originally posted by adamlotus75 So lifetime insurance... I let my ship get boarded and taken over by a friend and I get a new one for free?
Not really any different from buying regular in-game insurance for a nominal fee and doing the same thing; the real money will be going on fixtures and fittings anyway.
Also:
"Proven cases of insurance fraud will result in invalidation of LTI on that ship and may result in large in-game fines."
Not particularly difficult to track and deal with, should it become an issue.
Not particularly difficult to fake either.... Fully coordinated via Mumble etc there would be no evidence. In game: 'oh noez teh pirates! Please don't take my $1000 ship - oh dammit, gg, I'll have to get a new free one. oh noes! More pirates!'.
If you think the Chinese (for example) won't be doing this you are smoking crack.
Originally posted by adamlotus75 Not particularly difficult to fake either.... Fully coordinated via Mumble etc there would be no evidence. In game: 'oh noez teh pirates! Please don't take my $1000 ship - oh dammit, gg, I'll have to get a new free one. oh noes! More pirates!'.
If you think the Chinese (for example) won't be doing this you are smoking crack.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on the Star Citizen forums.
Any repeated loss of ships will be investigated, especially the bigger ones. And the more often you lose a big ship, the longer it takes to have it replaced by the insurance company. And according to the devs we are NOT talking minutes here ... hours ... days ....
Basically every trick you could think of has been discussed ... and almost all were already known to the devs. And those they did not know ... most of those they know now.
And for those who do not know ... there are very extensive sections on the Star Citizen forums with "ask a dev" / "dev answers" . We are talking about hundreds of dev answers here.
I have a basic Hornet since the start of the campaign, pledged some amount to the game that seemed appropriate.
And I can safely say I win nothing in an Alpha. Played some matches, without matchmaking even implemented.
Sometimes win, sometimes lose. Recently an 45$ Aurora handed my ass to me.
Fine -
the basic realization is this one: In an Alpha you "win" nothing, you test.
In the finished game there will be matchmaking of some sort anyway.
I expect you can either buy lots of "stock" ships easily, or focus on one you really like and invest into outfitting and finding the best parts around the verse.
As long this game doesn´t sell "premium ammo" that is massively overpowered I don´t see any way how this game could possibly be pay 2 win, because even with super ammo, you´d have to aim. There can´t be P2W in a twitch shooter.
You cant be more wrong. First of all im not saying aything about the game but, if "premium ammo" is op so is a ship that when it gets shooted can recive two times more damage than any other ship.
Take this situation for example: me and my free start ship engaging a fight with another player with the same skill level but a high$$$ ship, as i engage i manage to get some hits on him before he relizes im a threat, suddenly he out-turn me because his engine is better, have better speed and the shots i hit made no scratch on his shield, now hes on my back pew pew a few shots and i prolly wont recuperate form that alone.
The same story happens on WarThunder, yeah you can get the planes if you farm 24/7 but when u are matchedwith higher tier unless you are way more skilled you are screwed and as you need to farm a huge load on a low rank ship its even harder.
I have a basic Hornet since the start of the campaign, pledged some amount to the game that seemed appropriate.
And I can safely say I win nothing in an Alpha. Played some matches, without matchmaking even implemented.
Sometimes win, sometimes lose. Recently an 45$ Aurora handed my ass to me.
Fine -
the basic realization is this one: In an Alpha you "win" nothing, you test.
In the finished game there will be matchmaking of some sort anyway.
I expect you can either buy lots of "stock" ships easily, or focus on one you really like and invest into outfitting and finding the best parts around the verse.
As long this game doesn´t sell "premium ammo" that is massively overpowered I don´t see any way how this game could possibly be pay 2 win, because even with super ammo, you´d have to aim. There can´t be P2W in a twitch shooter.
You cant be more wrong. First of all im not saying aything about the game but, if "premium ammo" is op so is a ship that when it gets shooted can recive two times more damage than any other ship.
Take this situation for example: me and my free start ship engaging a fight with another player with the same skill level but a high$$$ ship, as i engage i manage to get some hits on him before he relizes im a threat, suddenly he out-turn me because his engine is better, have better speed and the shots i hit made no scratch on his shield, now hes on my back pew pew a few shots and i prolly wont recuperate form that alone.
The same story happens on WarThunder, yeah you can get the planes if you farm 24/7 but when u are matchedwith higher tier unless you are way more skilled you are screwed and as you need to farm a huge load on a low rank ship its even harder.
Hope i made my point, sry for the spellign.
The detail here is this game is not just about combat. Yep, that combat ship surely can destroy the lesser one, but no way it transport more cargo, or go farther so it can explore.
Anyway, the population of the Universe will be 90%NPC and just 10% players, so it's very probable that the hornet is a NPC, more if you have the "PVP slider" at minimum, so no big worries about griefing.
And also there's the systems, like heat and electromagnetic emissions. If the combat ship is heavily armed and have powerful engines it will bright like a spark in the radar, so you can detect him before he detects you. You change course and keep the emissions low. There will be lot of play in this and other systems, and also lot of customization for adjust the ship as you want (Just don't try to make a miner ship into a race ship XD)
Take this situation for example: me and my free start ship engaging a fight with another player with the same skill level but a high$$$ ship, as i engage i manage to get some hits on him before he relizes im a threat, suddenly he out-turn me because his engine is better, have better speed and the shots i hit made no scratch on his shield, now hes on my back pew pew a few shots and i prolly wont recuperate form that alone.
You cannot hit what you cannot see ;-)
Electronic warfare and stealth FTW (if pilots are of equal FLYING skill)
when AA dropped a random RNG box in their cashshop.. everyone on this forums raged about p2w.. but when SC is selling ships in for a game that has not even released yet.. its not p2w..
I argee with op.. SC is heavy p2w.. but not only that the amount of cash for ships is simply out of retardnation
when AA dropped a random RNG box in their cashshop.. everyone on this forums raged about p2w.. but when SC is selling ships in for a game that has not even released yet.. its not p2w..
I argee with op.. SC is heavy p2w.. but not only that the amount of cash for ships is simply out of retardnation
Archage is a normal game, financed by investors.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Star Citizen is a crowdfunded game, financed by backers by buying pledge packages. Without investors. OF COURSE they are selling packages for a game that has not even released. Its a CROWDFUNDING campaign. Thats the way they generate the money to even MAKE the game in the first place. Try wikipedia if you do not know what crowdfunding means.
Be thankful that someone else is giving his/her money out of free will so that this game can be made ! And YOU only have to pay the minimal amount (was as low as 25 $) to be able to play it once its finished.
Besides there are videos of the cheapest starter ships with good pilots busting the asses of Hornets (more expensive fighter type hull) .
Your pay to win ideas come from click and win MMOs and is a logical fallcy., this is a space sim that takes skill (plus outfitting of said ships)
So, no, it is not pay2 win it´s pledge to support the game.
You're trying to make an argument for all players based on exceptions. Between equal players it's clear who will win -those who have the gear advantage.
It's irrelevant that you can theoretically get the same stuff as someone who pays more.
If I start day one when the game launches and lose to you because you paid more and have a better ship; then that's a pay to win situation right there.
Unless Star Citizen has zero power variation between ships (which would annihilate progression), there is therefore a degree of P2W present. Also (I see this argument coming), you can only say something meaningful about this kind of situation when the skill level of players involved is roughly the same.
Now, there being a degree of P2W is not necessarily a huge problem. The question at hand is how heavy the pay to win will weigh in on the experience.
A player owning a hugely powerful ship at launch will be able to focus all his attention on gaining more resources and power while players who are starting without having paid for those ships will have to focus all their resources on getting up the ladder first.
It's similar to how a higher level player in WoW / EQ / TOR / RIFT /... can gain infinitely more wealth and power due to having more options available to them than a low level player.
What will matter in the end, is how Star Citizen sees to redistributing power and wealth amongst players. So far, I've seen little hopeful news in that regard.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Hardware peripherals and internet bandwidth alone can and do significantly affect results. You be a fool if you dont know about that. Those running with 120mhz monitors, dedicated game keyboards/mouse/joystick, highest end graphics etc etc, you don't think that doesnt affect online PVP? That they don't grant a serious advantage over players that don't have the same hardware?
You can actually already do that in Eve Online. That game is nearly completely player-run in all aspects. Yet no one cares about PLEXs cause really, you need a lot more than money to "win". Its an open-ended game.
So yeah, SC is P2W in a way that affects ALL online games but thats without intent. Unless they blatantly started selling "Give us $20 and all your weapons will cause 15% more damage...for 1 week!", the game will be fine.
If you guys are so anal about P2W, i'm sorry, i think you guys may need to just lay off MMOs and all online games altogether.
when AA dropped a random RNG box in their cashshop.. everyone on this forums raged about p2w.. but when SC is selling ships in for a game that has not even released yet.. its not p2w..
I argee with op.. SC is heavy p2w.. but not only that the amount of cash for ships is simply out of retardnation
Archage is a normal game, financed by investors.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Star Citizen is a crowdfunded game, financed by backers by buying pledge packages. Without investors. OF COURSE they are selling packages for a game that has not even released. Its a CROWDFUNDING campaign. Thats the way they generate the money to even MAKE the game in the first place. Try wikipedia if you do not know what crowdfunding means.
Be thankful that someone else is giving his/her money out of free will so that this game can be made ! And YOU only have to pay the minimal amount (was as low as 25 $) to be able to play it once its finished.
Have fun
What does that have to do with the gameplay? Oh right nothing. Makes no difference how the game is funded, P2W is P2W. Saying P2W is justified because they have to make money, well that is no different than any other company.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
Do you honestly believe that CR is just going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game launches? I will be seriously surprised if he does cause the name of the game atm is greed.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
So a ship sold a day before release is not P2W, but a ship sold a day after release is. So how does that work? Oh right it does not.
The ship has the same effect on the game and on its players. Power sold before release is no different then power sold after release. Its still power sold.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
Do you honestly believe that CR is just going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game launches? I will be seriously surprised if he does cause the name of the game atm is greed.
oh right, so if EA gives 250 million $ budget to Bioware to make SWTOR or Mass Effect X it´s NOT GREED.
If backers give a 78 million $ budget to CIG to make Star Citizen, it´s GREED.
right.
right.
you totally get the concept of crowdfunding a product getting made, slowclap.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
So a ship sold a day before release is not P2W, but a ship sold a day after release is. So how does that work? Oh right it does not.
The ship has the same effect on the game and on its players. Power sold before release is no different then power sold after release. Its still power sold.
SC is P2W
It definately is. There are bonuses and special things for discovering areas in space, there are benefits of having a bigger gun (ship) early on. I could list them but there are so many. SC by definition, is P2W.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Comments
I am not really sure. At some points I personaly consider founder packs with acces to the game already a P2W situation cause you can't really beat experiance. But with SC there isn't much game apart for a few selected backers...as far I know.
But that's just me talking as I don't give a S#@ what someone else has bought, aslong I get the oppertunity to get on a equel level at some point. Sure it might take me longer but as long the journey is fun but I simply play game for different reason then some or many might play them.
So no for now I don't consider SC pay to win.
Only wished we would see less shipdesign's and more actuall gameplay apart from some demo's.
Why do the items need to be better in order for it to be pay to win? It's a silly distinction.
You can sugar coat it all you want... but it's paytowin.
..Cake..
Buddy , in your mind anything can be pay2win. I mentioned just the general accepted definition.
And 250$ or 60 hours playing game looks like a fair deal for all sides.
Why don;t you make a game without any money beeing purely free. Nothing stops you, top game engines are for free, convince programers and 3d artist to work for free and show us how it is done.
Until then show some respect to the developers and to the people paying for the game to be made.
I would be pissed if someone could pay for a ship I spent two months working for ingame.
Sadly that is where this genre is going. Get stuff now, pay a little and in the end, whatever side of the wallet, what people achieve in game is meaningless. Apart from the fun. But fun can be had elsewhere in other genres, what you want from an MMORPG is meaningful progression to you and the people around you. Bringing wallets into the game will make both sides not care.
And then the world the devs have built, will feel bland and a place where nothing really matters. So why play the game.
I am baffled why MMORPG fans even defend "P2 win/progress/time saving whatever you want to call it these days". It is like going to a pub, and put in a coin slot on the pool table. If you put in a coin, you get a extra shot. That sounds fun doesnt it!
Not really any different from buying regular in-game insurance for a nominal fee and doing the same thing; the real money will be going on fixtures and fittings anyway.
Also:
"Proven cases of insurance fraud will result in invalidation of LTI on that ship and may result in large in-game fines."
Not particularly difficult to track and deal with, should it become an issue.
If you think the Chinese (for example) won't be doing this you are smoking crack.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on the Star Citizen forums.
Any repeated loss of ships will be investigated, especially the bigger ones. And the more often you lose a big ship, the longer it takes to have it replaced by the insurance company. And according to the devs we are NOT talking minutes here ... hours ... days ....
Basically every trick you could think of has been discussed ... and almost all were already known to the devs. And those they did not know ... most of those they know now.
And for those who do not know ... there are very extensive sections on the Star Citizen forums with "ask a dev" / "dev answers" . We are talking about hundreds of dev answers here.
Have fun
You cant be more wrong.
First of all im not saying aything about the game but, if "premium ammo" is op so is a ship that when it gets shooted can recive two times more damage than any other ship.
Take this situation for example: me and my free start ship engaging a fight with another player with the same skill level but a high$$$ ship, as i engage i manage to get some hits on him before he relizes im a threat, suddenly he out-turn me because his engine is better, have better speed and the shots i hit made no scratch on his shield, now hes on my back pew pew a few shots and i prolly wont recuperate form that alone.
The same story happens on WarThunder, yeah you can get the planes if you farm 24/7 but when u are matchedwith higher tier unless you are way more skilled you are screwed and as you need to farm a huge load on a low rank ship its even harder.
Hope i made my point, sry for the spellign.
The detail here is this game is not just about combat. Yep, that combat ship surely can destroy the lesser one, but no way it transport more cargo, or go farther so it can explore.
Anyway, the population of the Universe will be 90%NPC and just 10% players, so it's very probable that the hornet is a NPC, more if you have the "PVP slider" at minimum, so no big worries about griefing.
And also there's the systems, like heat and electromagnetic emissions. If the combat ship is heavily armed and have powerful engines it will bright like a spark in the radar, so you can detect him before he detects you. You change course and keep the emissions low. There will be lot of play in this and other systems, and also lot of customization for adjust the ship as you want (Just don't try to make a miner ship into a race ship XD)
You cannot hit what you cannot see ;-)
Electronic warfare and stealth FTW (if pilots are of equal FLYING skill)
Have fun
when AA dropped a random RNG box in their cashshop.. everyone on this forums raged about p2w.. but when SC is selling ships in for a game that has not even released yet.. its not p2w..
I argee with op.. SC is heavy p2w.. but not only that the amount of cash for ships is simply out of retardnation
Archage is a normal game, financed by investors.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Star Citizen is a crowdfunded game, financed by backers by buying pledge packages. Without investors. OF COURSE they are selling packages for a game that has not even released. Its a CROWDFUNDING campaign. Thats the way they generate the money to even MAKE the game in the first place. Try wikipedia if you do not know what crowdfunding means.
Be thankful that someone else is giving his/her money out of free will so that this game can be made ! And YOU only have to pay the minimal amount (was as low as 25 $) to be able to play it once its finished.
Have fun
You're trying to make an argument for all players based on exceptions.Between equal players it's clear who will win -those who have the gear advantage.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
It's irrelevant that you can theoretically get the same stuff as someone who pays more.
If I start day one when the game launches and lose to you because you paid more and have a better ship; then that's a pay to win situation right there.
Unless Star Citizen has zero power variation between ships (which would annihilate progression), there is therefore a degree of P2W present. Also (I see this argument coming), you can only say something meaningful about this kind of situation when the skill level of players involved is roughly the same.
Now, there being a degree of P2W is not necessarily a huge problem. The question at hand is how heavy the pay to win will weigh in on the experience.
A player owning a hugely powerful ship at launch will be able to focus all his attention on gaining more resources and power while players who are starting without having paid for those ships will have to focus all their resources on getting up the ladder first.
It's similar to how a higher level player in WoW / EQ / TOR / RIFT /... can gain infinitely more wealth and power due to having more options available to them than a low level player.
What will matter in the end, is how Star Citizen sees to redistributing power and wealth amongst players. So far, I've seen little hopeful news in that regard.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
All online PVP games are P2W to a certain extent.
Hardware peripherals and internet bandwidth alone can and do significantly affect results. You be a fool if you dont know about that. Those running with 120mhz monitors, dedicated game keyboards/mouse/joystick, highest end graphics etc etc, you don't think that doesnt affect online PVP? That they don't grant a serious advantage over players that don't have the same hardware?
You can actually already do that in Eve Online. That game is nearly completely player-run in all aspects. Yet no one cares about PLEXs cause really, you need a lot more than money to "win". Its an open-ended game.
So yeah, SC is P2W in a way that affects ALL online games but thats without intent. Unless they blatantly started selling "Give us $20 and all your weapons will cause 15% more damage...for 1 week!", the game will be fine.
If you guys are so anal about P2W, i'm sorry, i think you guys may need to just lay off MMOs and all online games altogether.
What does that have to do with the gameplay? Oh right nothing. Makes no difference how the game is funded, P2W is P2W. Saying P2W is justified because they have to make money, well that is no different than any other company.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
Do you honestly believe that CR is just going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game launches? I will be seriously surprised if he does cause the name of the game atm is greed.
So a ship sold a day before release is not P2W, but a ship sold a day after release is. So how does that work? Oh right it does not.
The ship has the same effect on the game and on its players. Power sold before release is no different then power sold after release. Its still power sold.
SC is P2W
oh right, so if EA gives 250 million $ budget to Bioware to make SWTOR or Mass Effect X it´s NOT GREED.
If backers give a 78 million $ budget to CIG to make Star Citizen, it´s GREED.
right.
right.
you totally get the concept of crowdfunding a product getting made, slowclap.
It definately is. There are bonuses and special things for discovering areas in space, there are benefits of having a bigger gun (ship) early on. I could list them but there are so many. SC by definition, is P2W.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999