F2p business models are often worse than gambling. Casinos are required to display the payout rate of slot machines and display the current jackpot. Nobody is supervising the "payouts" of the common f2p treasure chests. An advertised rare item like a mount could be inifnitely rare and nobody would be the wiser, certainly not the casual player.
Dota 2 changed the drops from treasure chests at the beginning of the year: http://blog.dota2.com/2014/03/the-end-end-of-duplicates/ . Now you can't get multiples when opening several crates in a row. Debatably this was done because opening treasure chests before was too close to gambling and the chinese government (one of or the biggest market for dota 2) was not happy with it.
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
nah .. only the second addiction (gambling) gives you money. The first will only play for free.
nah... people are willing to pay A LOT of money just t oget advantage over other people.
F2p business models are often worse than gambling. Casinos are required to display the payout rate of slot machines and display the current jackpot. Nobody is supervising the "payouts" of the common f2p treasure chests. An advertised rare item like a mount could be inifnitely rare and nobody would be the wiser, certainly not the casual player.
Dota 2 changed the drops from treasure chests at the beginning of the year: http://blog.dota2.com/2014/03/the-end-end-of-duplicates/ . Now you can't get multiples when opening several crates in a row. Debatably this was done because opening treasure chests before was too close to gambling and the chinese government (one of or the biggest market for dota 2) was not happy with it.
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
nah .. only the second addiction (gambling) gives you money. The first will only play for free.
nah... people are willing to pay A LOT of money just t oget advantage over other people.
nah .. only the small percentage of whales, not the majority of players. Plus, mmo addicted players like to grind .. and they can grind for free.
F2p business models are often worse than gambling. Casinos are required to display the payout rate of slot machines and display the current jackpot. Nobody is supervising the "payouts" of the common f2p treasure chests. An advertised rare item like a mount could be inifnitely rare and nobody would be the wiser, certainly not the casual player.
Dota 2 changed the drops from treasure chests at the beginning of the year: http://blog.dota2.com/2014/03/the-end-end-of-duplicates/ . Now you can't get multiples when opening several crates in a row. Debatably this was done because opening treasure chests before was too close to gambling and the chinese government (one of or the biggest market for dota 2) was not happy with it.
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
nah .. only the second addiction (gambling) gives you money. The first will only play for free.
nah... people are willing to pay A LOT of money just t oget advantage over other people.
nah .. only the small percentage of whales, not the majority of players. Plus, mmo addicted players like to grind .. and they can grind for free.
Who said I'm talking about whales only? There's a whole spectre of people between f2p leechers and whales. Thousands if not millions of people who are willing to spend some extra money for their favourite hobby, be it funky textures or 3rd part cheats, or whatever else.
And even if I was talking only about whales... 100 whales (and this is a small number if we look at a million or two+ gamers comming to a game) each throwing a few thousand dollars at you every month, is something you would ignore if you were into business right?
I don't see much point in speaking out about the shoddy business practices of many of the F2P companies. I just vote with my pocketbook, I don't play those games.
It is "buyer beware", and if enough people spend enough money, then all of this will continue.
And even if I was talking only about whales... 100 whales (and this is a small number if we look at a million or two+ gamers comming to a game) each throwing a few thousand dollars at you every month, is something you would ignore if you were into business right?
Devs won't ignore them.
But I am not a dev, am i? As i player, i ignore them everyday.
And even if I was talking only about whales... 100 whales (and this is a small number if we look at a million or two+ gamers comming to a game) each throwing a few thousand dollars at you every month, is something you would ignore if you were into business right?
Devs won't ignore them.
But I am not a dev, am i? As i player, i ignore them everyday.
Devs do tend to ignore players who don't pay though, no reason to support them after all, but, once they see a trend of items or whatever that players are willing to pay for, they expand upon it, simple business practice really.
Nope. Devs know that the free player is a powerful contributor to their game. The free player may spend money but they are also continued content fit other players and provide the majority of word of mouth.
They are an essential part of the model.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If you never contributed anything how were you scammed? What were you scammed out of?
The reality is that most people do not pay for free games. They just try them out, and either move on, or decide to see how much they can get for free (even if tedious). Some do decide to pay for stuff in free games, but they are the small minority.
As for those that complain about the business model, they are mostly those that do not pay, but want the benefits that paying would get them. They believe it is unfair that just because someone gave money for something, that they should get it... when they are spending time. This usually is simply a factor of what people feel that their time is worth. If you have lots of money, your time is more valuable (so you spend money). If you do not have a lot of money, then your time is less valuable, and you don't want to spend the money.
The reality is that there is very little scamming going on.... but there is a lot of people who are upset that they don't have the money to buy the things that they would like.... so they set up straw men to beat on.
If you never contributed anything how were you scammed? What were you scammed out of?
The reality is that most people do not pay for free games. They just try them out, and either move on, or decide to see how much they can get for free (even if tedious). Some do decide to pay for stuff in free games, but they are the small minority.
As for those that complain about the business model, they are mostly those that do not pay, but want the benefits that paying would get them. They believe it is unfair that just because someone gave money for something, that they should get it... when they are spending time. This usually is simply a factor of what people feel that their time is worth. If you have lots of money, your time is more valuable (so you spend money). If you do not have a lot of money, then your time is less valuable, and you don't want to spend the money.
The reality is that there is very little scamming going on.... but there is a lot of people who are upset that they don't have the money to buy the things that they would like.... so they set up straw men to beat on.
I know. I also know its not the people who do not have extra dollars that complain.
Its the ones who can afford to pay (disposable income) who complain and act entitled.
Answer - because if people find out , the scam won't work as good anymore. Also I have a lot of money, I can buy myself better than you and I want to keep it that way, so what I do is come on the Internet and make fun of people who complain about f2p, make them seem like the minority, make them seem irrelevant, show them proof with league of legends profit charts , muhahhahaha- snicker snicker snort snort - I will show you who the best video gamer is snicker snort ahahhahaha- then I will steal your beautiful girlfriend ahahahaha- snicker cough lugy- hold up " Mom can we get some meatloaf " ah ha and now for your demise ( bust out credit card and buy up some god mode) - shoot through walls with my automatic sniper rifle and x-ray vision scope in a friendly match of CS.
If you never contributed anything how were you scammed? What were you scammed out of?
The reality is that most people do not pay for free games. They just try them out, and either move on, or decide to see how much they can get for free (even if tedious). Some do decide to pay for stuff in free games, but they are the small minority.
As for those that complain about the business model, they are mostly those that do not pay, but want the benefits that paying would get them. They believe it is unfair that just because someone gave money for something, that they should get it... when they are spending time. This usually is simply a factor of what people feel that their time is worth. If you have lots of money, your time is more valuable (so you spend money). If you do not have a lot of money, then your time is less valuable, and you don't want to spend the money.
The reality is that there is very little scamming going on.... but there is a lot of people who are upset that they don't have the money to buy the things that they would like.... so they set up straw men to beat on.
I know. I also know its not the people who do not have extra dollars that complain.
Its the ones who can afford to pay (disposable income) who complain and act entitled.
So, what you are saying is that you believe that those who can (and do) spend money on F2P games, go on forums and complain about the fact that they are spending money.
I don't see much point in speaking out about the shoddy business practices of many of the F2P companies. I just vote with my pocketbook, I don't play those games.
It is "buyer beware", and if enough people spend enough money, then all of this will continue.
Pretty much this is all we can do. I don't like some of the practices that are taking hold random boxes that hide the true cost of things probably being the one I hate the most but all I can do at this point is just not participate in those kinds of games. I mean if PWI put a mount up for $500 people would outrage but many are more than willing to dump money into $1 keys day in and day out at 500 to 1 chance of winning one in a "mystery" box. These boxes and other tactics like it are nothing more than ways to accustom players to higher prices by hiding the true price inside a random number generator.
I had talked to the OP about this in regards to EQNext and it's choice to go F2P.
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
F2P is like going to a restaurant, and getting a free upfront drink, then the apetizer is kind of expensive, you pay for it, then the actual main meal is outrageously expensive, and then you get a hidden bill for the heating, if you don't pay for it, you get your dinner outside in the snow.
F2P is such an incredibly sleazy and underhanded business model. Just the name itself is incredibly misleading.
And don't get me started on the tactics the cash shops use, with lockboxes and like people referenced, casino type gameplay.
How these games are still able to operate is beyond me. When you have minors gambling money away in your game, you should at the very least be taken offline, if not actually arrested. And don't give me the excuse this is not gambling, it has every hallmark of a gambling system.
If organized crime wanted to get into the gaming business (if they aren't already there) they wouldn't have to invent a new monetization model - it's already there.
It works pretty well the same way as drug pushing and casinos work: you make it easy to get started and then you hook enough of them to rake in the bucks from the addicts. We call them "whales" in F2P lingo, but it's the same thing.
F2P monetization design is predatory in nature and like all good scams, it's hard to pin crimes on them because they're masters at skirting consumer protection laws.
Other than that, it's a great model
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
It is quite clear that a large part of the game can be played for free.
You can always play another free game when you hit the pay wall (if there is one).
Take MH as an example ... you can finish the story content with a hero without paying a cent. I think it is pretty clear of what the costs are ... zero.
Originally posted by DarkFail You not having the will power to not purchase things does not mean they are scamming you.
Yes. No one makes you buy drugs or go to the casino... it's totally your own fault if you get addicted... enablers don't exists, they are a myth... and Santa woke me up when he was coming down the chimney a few days ago...
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
It is quite clear that a large part of the game can be played for free.
You can always play another free game when you hit the pay wall (if there is one).
Take MH as an example ... you can finish the story content with a hero without paying a cent. I think it is pretty clear of what the costs are ... zero.
Sure you can play some of the game for free but I wouldn't say it's a large part since hero's is what makes that game unique. Take them out of the equation and it's a fairly basic Diablo clone. Add on top of that the synergies system where the game encourages you to play multiple heroes for cross hero buffs and the game strongly pushes people towards the cash shop. Don't get me wrong MH is one of the better cash shops out there along with TSW and if they put the stuff that is in the slot machine boxes up for sale directly on the cash shop instead of hiding the true cost to "buy" it inside a random number generator I would say they would be examples of F2P done right but even for as good as their shops are they have adopted this insanely highly profitable and very anti-consumer friendly practice which short of governments getting involved is only going to get worse as time goes on. I mean why be limited to selling things for $5-$20 each when you can sell them for hundreds each by hiding the cost in a lock box?
Originally posted by DarkFail You not having the will power to not purchase things does not mean they are scamming you.
You can keep trying to come up with excuses. The thing that is eventually going to get them into trouble is:
*the fact they are starting to incorporate gambling tactics
*the fact many of their players are minors
Each year they keep pushing the line. First it was some cosmetics. Then they incorporated virtual currency. Then they incorporated cash shops with lockboxes and casino games. Now you have videos on Youtube of people showing the odds of winning something are manipulated and changed.
It's going to get them in trouble with the law eventually, not if, but when.
Comments
nah... people are willing to pay A LOT of money just t oget advantage over other people.
nah .. only the small percentage of whales, not the majority of players. Plus, mmo addicted players like to grind .. and they can grind for free.
Who said I'm talking about whales only? There's a whole spectre of people between f2p leechers and whales. Thousands if not millions of people who are willing to spend some extra money for their favourite hobby, be it funky textures or 3rd part cheats, or whatever else.
And even if I was talking only about whales... 100 whales (and this is a small number if we look at a million or two+ gamers comming to a game) each throwing a few thousand dollars at you every month, is something you would ignore if you were into business right?
I don't see much point in speaking out about the shoddy business practices of many of the F2P companies. I just vote with my pocketbook, I don't play those games.
It is "buyer beware", and if enough people spend enough money, then all of this will continue.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Devs won't ignore them.
But I am not a dev, am i? As i player, i ignore them everyday.
Devs do tend to ignore players who don't pay though, no reason to support them after all, but, once they see a trend of items or whatever that players are willing to pay for, they expand upon it, simple business practice really.
They are an essential part of the model.
Its free.
If you never contributed anything how were you scammed? What were you scammed out of?
The reality is that most people do not pay for free games. They just try them out, and either move on, or decide to see how much they can get for free (even if tedious). Some do decide to pay for stuff in free games, but they are the small minority.
As for those that complain about the business model, they are mostly those that do not pay, but want the benefits that paying would get them. They believe it is unfair that just because someone gave money for something, that they should get it... when they are spending time. This usually is simply a factor of what people feel that their time is worth. If you have lots of money, your time is more valuable (so you spend money). If you do not have a lot of money, then your time is less valuable, and you don't want to spend the money.
The reality is that there is very little scamming going on.... but there is a lot of people who are upset that they don't have the money to buy the things that they would like.... so they set up straw men to beat on.
I know. I also know its not the people who do not have extra dollars that complain.
Its the ones who can afford to pay (disposable income) who complain and act entitled.
So, what you are saying is that you believe that those who can (and do) spend money on F2P games, go on forums and complain about the fact that they are spending money.
Pretty much this is all we can do. I don't like some of the practices that are taking hold random boxes that hide the true cost of things probably being the one I hate the most but all I can do at this point is just not participate in those kinds of games. I mean if PWI put a mount up for $500 people would outrage but many are more than willing to dump money into $1 keys day in and day out at 500 to 1 chance of winning one in a "mystery" box. These boxes and other tactics like it are nothing more than ways to accustom players to higher prices by hiding the true price inside a random number generator.
I had talked to the OP about this in regards to EQNext and it's choice to go F2P.
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
F2P is like going to a restaurant, and getting a free upfront drink, then the apetizer is kind of expensive, you pay for it, then the actual main meal is outrageously expensive, and then you get a hidden bill for the heating, if you don't pay for it, you get your dinner outside in the snow.
F2P is such an incredibly sleazy and underhanded business model. Just the name itself is incredibly misleading.
And don't get me started on the tactics the cash shops use, with lockboxes and like people referenced, casino type gameplay.
How these games are still able to operate is beyond me. When you have minors gambling money away in your game, you should at the very least be taken offline, if not actually arrested. And don't give me the excuse this is not gambling, it has every hallmark of a gambling system.
I give it a year before some F2P MMO are shut down in the EU. You're talking about minors gambling, there are jail sentences for that in Europe.
If organized crime wanted to get into the gaming business (if they aren't already there) they wouldn't have to invent a new monetization model - it's already there.
It works pretty well the same way as drug pushing and casinos work: you make it easy to get started and then you hook enough of them to rake in the bucks from the addicts. We call them "whales" in F2P lingo, but it's the same thing.
F2P monetization design is predatory in nature and like all good scams, it's hard to pin crimes on them because they're masters at skirting consumer protection laws.
Other than that, it's a great model
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It is quite clear that a large part of the game can be played for free.
You can always play another free game when you hit the pay wall (if there is one).
Take MH as an example ... you can finish the story content with a hero without paying a cent. I think it is pretty clear of what the costs are ... zero.
at final ,players are accept nothing is free on this world for real
F2P is just great marketing trick , it working fine ! we ,players spending money in F2P cash shops
Yes. No one makes you buy drugs or go to the casino... it's totally your own fault if you get addicted... enablers don't exists, they are a myth... and Santa woke me up when he was coming down the chimney a few days ago...
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Sure you can play some of the game for free but I wouldn't say it's a large part since hero's is what makes that game unique. Take them out of the equation and it's a fairly basic Diablo clone. Add on top of that the synergies system where the game encourages you to play multiple heroes for cross hero buffs and the game strongly pushes people towards the cash shop. Don't get me wrong MH is one of the better cash shops out there along with TSW and if they put the stuff that is in the slot machine boxes up for sale directly on the cash shop instead of hiding the true cost to "buy" it inside a random number generator I would say they would be examples of F2P done right but even for as good as their shops are they have adopted this insanely highly profitable and very anti-consumer friendly practice which short of governments getting involved is only going to get worse as time goes on. I mean why be limited to selling things for $5-$20 each when you can sell them for hundreds each by hiding the cost in a lock box?
You can keep trying to come up with excuses. The thing that is eventually going to get them into trouble is:
*the fact they are starting to incorporate gambling tactics
*the fact many of their players are minors
Each year they keep pushing the line. First it was some cosmetics. Then they incorporated virtual currency. Then they incorporated cash shops with lockboxes and casino games. Now you have videos on Youtube of people showing the odds of winning something are manipulated and changed.
It's going to get them in trouble with the law eventually, not if, but when.
99% of the time the scam is blatantly obvious so I'm more of a "fool and his money are soon parted" mentality.
If you're stupid enough to spend money on these F2P games expecting a legitimate gaming experience I hope they take you for every dollar.