If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
There is no such thing as "too much DPS".
Normally I would agree with you
Unless there are 8 mobs in the raid that have to stay within a 5% hp margin.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
There is no such thing as "too much DPS".
Normally I would agree with you
Unless there are 8 mobs in the raid that have to stay within a 5% hp margin.
That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was. Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".
Rose-colored glasses.
Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said. Not this trade spam you're calling socialization. That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was. Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".
Rose-colored glasses.
Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said. Not this trade spam you're calling socialization. That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.
It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.
How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?
When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was. Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".
Rose-colored glasses.
Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said. Not this trade spam you're calling socialization. That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.
I have to agree with Axehilt here.
Asheron's Call also had the same form of 'community' and that game had no built in system for trinity type rules. Community is something that can't be captured in a few screenshots or anecdotal, nostalgia laced musings. Why does it even matter? When did this thread turn into trinity = community?
When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
This, in many ways, is true.
But it can also be a real deterrent for some players who don't want to be forced to get involved with others.
I'm a bit mixed on this.
In one sense, being solo friendly and using LFG tools to find PUGs allows me to play MMOs at my own pace, and allows me to pursue my own goals without having to rely (too much) on others.
Yet at the same time, I was certainly a LOT more involved with the community, within a guild, with real friends on the other side of the screen back in the days before LFG and everything being solo friendly.
It's not like I couldn't have those things in today's more solo friendly MMO - it's just the old way forced you into it.
For better, or for worse.
Non-trinity allows you to play with really anyone without having to worry about group comp as much, but trinity also leads to having more/less desired roles so it makes grouping easier for some (tank/heals) and more difficult for others (DPS).
In games where there is a trinity split, it is usually the DPS that has the easiest time soloing, and in PvP, but they "pay" for that convenience by longer queue times.
Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.
Tell that to Kasparov
Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.
And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)
So its lot of resources for very limited return.
Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.
That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.
So yeah, MMOs Bieber caused MMOs michelin star and edit piaf to vanish.
Ok, have fun in your button mashing action MMO then. When those games get any form of community, let us know.
But what games have a community now? There is none. Because socialization is no longer part of the game.
It is about the loot. Nothing more, nothing less. If you can't help me achieve X item in X time, you are no use to me or us.
The MMO is no longer about the game, but the itemization of the genre. They are in essence basically a stretched out ARPG pretending to be an MMO. There is no world, their is no attachment to anything but the loot attained by their character(s).
The few games that try are some mind numbingly badly implemented and boring (IMO) that they are trying to get this imaginary player-base that doesn't exist for what they are trying to create.
Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.
Tell that to Kasparov
Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.
And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)
So its lot of resources for very limited return.
Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.
That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.
Knowing the mechanics of a fight is not the same as executing it.
Anyone who has raided high-end content in a game like WoW can attest to the FACT that their is skill involved, quite a bit of it, and also has dozens of examples/stories of times where their best wasn't enough, or they had a group that just didn't get it, and of course of that ONE time they executed the fight perfectly - everyone was focused and did their jobs well and the pieces all lined up just enough to get that kill...
Yeah gear is a part of that, but (at least back in the day) getting gear and managing it was also a skill that was required to raid. You had to do the pre-reqs, get enough gear from enough sources to be ready for the content, spend time and effort to optimize your gear via enchants and gems, hell even customizing your experience with add-ons and such was something you had to learn.
I have a feeling people who say trinity combat is "dumb" and doesn't require any skill and isn't challenging in any way really haven't done it.
So they're either a liar - or actually really good and all of the pieces and skills required they possess already - so it is "easy" for them to do it right - which FYI doesn't mean it is easy - just that it is easy for YOU because YOU are good at it.
Originally posted by Kiyoris When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.
Real friends aren't forced.
I think many real friends ARE forced.
The fact we socialise in the first place is because of survivability reasons, many creatures are loners, humans are not. We hunted in packs, that's why we have social skills, because of interdependence.
It is no different in some MMO. You are stronger together, you create a bond, the bond requires mutual trust -> you make long lasting friends.
It is the same reason people who went to prison remember every person there when asked. It is the same reason soldiers remember every single person in their squat. It is the same reasons why one of my best friends is a person I got lost with in the woods and almost didn't make it out. And it is the same reason EQ players still remember half the people they played with.
In fact, many of my friends from EQ I still talk to daily.
The harsh experiences bind you.
You are actively being forced to get to know the other person. You are forced to trust the other person. You are forced to get along with the other person. And eventually you create a bond.
Can you make friends without those experiences? Yes. Is it the same thing? No.
Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.
Tell that to Kasparov
Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.
And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)
So its lot of resources for very limited return.
Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.
That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.
Knowing the mechanics of a fight is not the same as executing it.
Anyone who has raided high-end content in a game like WoW can attest to the FACT that their is skill involved, quite a bit of it, and also has dozens of examples/stories of times where their best wasn't enough, or they had a group that just didn't get it, and of course of that ONE time they executed the fight perfectly - everyone was focused and did their jobs well and the pieces all lined up just enough to get that kill...
Yeah gear is a part of that, but (at least back in the day) getting gear and managing it was also a skill that was required to raid. You had to do the pre-reqs, get enough gear from enough sources to be ready for the content, spend time and effort to optimize your gear via enchants and gems, hell even customizing your experience with add-ons and such was something you had to learn.
I have a feeling people who say trinity combat is "dumb" and doesn't require any skill and isn't challenging in any way really haven't done it.
So they're either a liar - or actually really good and all of the pieces and skills required they possess already - so it is "easy" for them to do it right - which FYI doesn't mean it is easy - just that it is easy for YOU because YOU are good at it.
All that it takes is competent group and willigness to dump people if they cant perform. Dont kid yourself, theres nothiing all that social about progression.
And trinity hasnt really changed a lot in 10 years, so its not like its something completely new and unknown, it works on same principle (a bit more streamlined) for very long time now.
Just read post above and youll get the picture. L2 was even more competitive than WoW ever was/will be.
That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was. Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".
Rose-colored glasses.
Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said. Not this trade spam you're calling socialization. That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.
It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.
How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?
You're under the impression that the people making true friends and getting married in EQ were the average EQ player, which brings us back to the whole rose-colored glasses thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.
How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?
When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
I find it highly unlikely that the ~10 early MMORPGs I played differed much from EQ. Trade chat in these games was not a place of stories, real life chatter, and marriage. Not even close. It was an endless spam of trade requests.
If anything, more socialization happens in modern trade chat due to the lack of trade spam.
Your closing statement is true, and segways into a discussion of "Should gaming be deliberately terrible, for the sake of a little socialization?", but we were talking about trade specifically and trade just wasn't a significant source of socializing. It was impersonal spam.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Trinity used to be a pretty good system, except that it tends to lead to people hugging the same spot while rotating skills. That is easy to improve though but the problem is that the current trinity is extremely simplified nowadays.
The simplified trinity also makes the games far more similar to play than trinity games like M59 and Everquest.
Acttion combat have it's bad sides as well, the good stuff though is that timing and positioning is important there.
I think we need a new trinity instead of the old, it is beyond salvation now.
Focus on offence, defence and support instead, get rid of taunts and focus on timing things together with other team members. And for gods sake, get rid of skill rotation. When using the right skill at the right time is a matter of death people can't just spamm the same skill or the same rotation and actually have to think while they play.
Keep healing limited as well (less than most modern games but more than GW2), being able to fight forever due to heals doesn't actually make combat more fun but good timed heals should be a winner, having too much heal though just means the healer can spamm them.
MMOs need something new now, we have gotten a constantly simplified trinity mechanics the last 12 years and the fun in it just isn't there anymore. We could try to make it more advanced again but it would be easier and probably more fun to add something new and original instead.
It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.
How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?
When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
I find it highly unlikely that the ~10 early MMORPGs I played differed much from EQ. Trade chat in these games was not a place of stories, real life chatter, and marriage. Not even close. It was an endless spam of trade requests.
If anything, more socialization happens in modern trade chat due to the lack of trade spam.
Your closing statement is true, and segways into a discussion of "Should gaming be deliberately terrible, for the sake of a little socialization?", but we were talking about trade specifically and trade just wasn't a significant source of socializing. It was impersonal spam.
You are right. The best chat I seen was actually Lineage because there you earned the right to chat, low level characters couldn't use it and spammers got banned (at least in the beginning).
But Ki also have a point, friends in the old days were rather different from now, maybe that was because we were a small bunch of people with common interests back then. When everybody games it is harder to find like minded.
Originally posted by Kiyoris When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.
Real friends aren't forced.
I think many real friends ARE forced.
The fact we socialise in the first place is because of survivability reasons, many creatures are loners, humans are not. We hunted in packs, that's why we have social skills, because of interdependence.
It is no different in some MMO. You are stronger together, you create a bond, the bond requires mutual trust -> you make long lasting friends.
It is the same reason people who went to prison remember every person there when asked. It is the same reason soldiers remember every single person in their squat. It is the same reasons why one of my best friends is a person I got lost with in the woods and almost didn't make it out. And it is the same reason EQ players still remember half the people they played with.
In fact, many of my friends from EQ I still talk to daily.
The harsh experiences bind you.
You are actively being forced to get to know the other person. You are forced to trust the other person. You are forced to get along with the other person. And eventually you create a bond.
Can you make friends without those experiences? Yes. Is it the same thing? No.
Its a fact of life. Shared adversity creates a sense of community. Thats the premise EQ was based on and the element lacking in modern mmos. Its fine if people only want fast shallow mmo gaming, but some people really enjoy interdependence and there is no arguing that the games that had it managed to keep a healthy playerbase longer than those without.
saying the trinity is superior merely implies that the person can't think for themselves. It's a confined mode of play used for people who can't actually collaborate with other players and self sacrifice for the benefit of the group. It seems perfect for the individual who plays a more open gamestyle then claims it's nothing but dps, but to say it's actually better is simply false. The forced trinity guides people into a direction that limits the need for a player to think, communicate, and actually try to accomplish the task at hand.
Tell me this; What actually sounds more like a game?
1) you stand at a fork in the road, and there are three paths you can choose from. Which do you take?
or
2) you stand at a fork in the road, and you are wearing a blue shirt so you take the road with the blue line down it.
notice the lack of a question mark at the end of 2?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Originally posted by Kiyoris When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.
Real friends aren't forced.
And also, I made more friends in AC1, people I still meet in real life, than in any other game. AC1 didn't have any of the trinity crap or the forced grouping crap. That was a true community, not a forced one.
I still raid in WoW, but people raiding with me for most will never become friends. They are acquaintances. Killing video game bosses a few hours a week with me doesn't make someone a friend. Friends come what happens outside the playing, when you know people for more than just their video game character. And for that, you don't need forced grouping or trinity.
Spot on.
This is why i always find it funny that people want to be forced to socialize. They reminisce about the good old days of camping and socializing, as if they had a choice. The socialization was just the side effect of terrible game design.
In my 10 years of WoW, i've never made a friend through dungeons, raiding, or farming. I have made many friends though by actually congregating at regular social spots, such as goldshire or other dueling areas, and i still keep in contact with some of them for almost 4 years now. None of it was forced.
As for trinity gameplay, it's not superior, it's just an older mechanic that people enjoy. I prefer action-combat though, because it's more mobile and reactive.
I also find it funny that people always refer to GW2 as if it's the only action-combat MMO out there. ESO, WS, TSW, Tera, and others also have action-combat, but nobody ever mentions them, because they actually do it quite well.
How is any combat system "he superior combat mechanic" to begin with?
I personally favor Japanese Online Action RPGS (Such as Phantasy Star Online 2) because your personal skill matters a lot, the action is real time (So you have to block, dodge and anticipate attacks) but you still have to be a part of a cohesive unit and some bosses cannot be defeated unless the party organizes to exploit some mechanics.
To make a very simple example, there is a boss that attacks you on a "ship" (think of levi in FFXIV) and you have to balance both DPSing him and harpooning him because otherwise he just swim away and begins to throw one-hit KO lasers around.
Whle this may sound simple on text, to manage enough harpoons while dodging in real time and attempting not to die to the absurd amount of traps, minions and omfgimafiringmahlazors is something really exciting and challenging.
But that does not mean the battle system is "superior" to something else, it simply means that such a battle system is what i enjoy doing and how i enjoy fighting stuff.
I think this kind of stuff is extremely subjective and there is no definite answer because it depends on whatever you like.
Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.
TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system. Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.
Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.
So why are you still pushing this tangent and completely unrelated discussion? It has nothing to do with the Trinity System. Maybe the Pace of Combat annoys you in some Trinity Games, but that also has nothing to do with Trinity or even the combat system since Developers can balance that without ever touching the combat mechanics, by simply changing numbers in various players (Skill/Melee/Spell damage, MOB Health, Crit Rates, Base Crit Damage and Modifiers, etc.).
Comments
Normally I would agree with you
Unless there are 8 mobs in the raid that have to stay within a 5% hp margin.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Did you play an SK?
Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...
http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro
That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was. Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".
Rose-colored glasses.
Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said. Not this trade spam you're calling socialization. That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.
How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?
When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.
I have to agree with Axehilt here.
Asheron's Call also had the same form of 'community' and that game had no built in system for trinity type rules. Community is something that can't be captured in a few screenshots or anecdotal, nostalgia laced musings. Why does it even matter? When did this thread turn into trinity = community?
This, in many ways, is true.
But it can also be a real deterrent for some players who don't want to be forced to get involved with others.
I'm a bit mixed on this.
In one sense, being solo friendly and using LFG tools to find PUGs allows me to play MMOs at my own pace, and allows me to pursue my own goals without having to rely (too much) on others.
Yet at the same time, I was certainly a LOT more involved with the community, within a guild, with real friends on the other side of the screen back in the days before LFG and everything being solo friendly.
It's not like I couldn't have those things in today's more solo friendly MMO - it's just the old way forced you into it.
For better, or for worse.
Non-trinity allows you to play with really anyone without having to worry about group comp as much, but trinity also leads to having more/less desired roles so it makes grouping easier for some (tank/heals) and more difficult for others (DPS).
In games where there is a trinity split, it is usually the DPS that has the easiest time soloing, and in PvP, but they "pay" for that convenience by longer queue times.
TL;DR - it's a multi-faceted issue
Raided as a magician and shaman up through Secrets of Faydwer.
Then RL got too hectic.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Tell that to Kasparov
Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.
And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)
So its lot of resources for very limited return.
Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.
That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.
But what games have a community now? There is none. Because socialization is no longer part of the game.
It is about the loot. Nothing more, nothing less. If you can't help me achieve X item in X time, you are no use to me or us.
The MMO is no longer about the game, but the itemization of the genre. They are in essence basically a stretched out ARPG pretending to be an MMO. There is no world, their is no attachment to anything but the loot attained by their character(s).
The few games that try are some mind numbingly badly implemented and boring (IMO) that they are trying to get this imaginary player-base that doesn't exist for what they are trying to create.
Knowing the mechanics of a fight is not the same as executing it.
Anyone who has raided high-end content in a game like WoW can attest to the FACT that their is skill involved, quite a bit of it, and also has dozens of examples/stories of times where their best wasn't enough, or they had a group that just didn't get it, and of course of that ONE time they executed the fight perfectly - everyone was focused and did their jobs well and the pieces all lined up just enough to get that kill...
Yeah gear is a part of that, but (at least back in the day) getting gear and managing it was also a skill that was required to raid. You had to do the pre-reqs, get enough gear from enough sources to be ready for the content, spend time and effort to optimize your gear via enchants and gems, hell even customizing your experience with add-ons and such was something you had to learn.
I have a feeling people who say trinity combat is "dumb" and doesn't require any skill and isn't challenging in any way really haven't done it.
So they're either a liar - or actually really good and all of the pieces and skills required they possess already - so it is "easy" for them to do it right - which FYI doesn't mean it is easy - just that it is easy for YOU because YOU are good at it.
I think many real friends ARE forced.
The fact we socialise in the first place is because of survivability reasons, many creatures are loners, humans are not. We hunted in packs, that's why we have social skills, because of interdependence.
It is no different in some MMO. You are stronger together, you create a bond, the bond requires mutual trust -> you make long lasting friends.
It is the same reason people who went to prison remember every person there when asked. It is the same reason soldiers remember every single person in their squat. It is the same reasons why one of my best friends is a person I got lost with in the woods and almost didn't make it out. And it is the same reason EQ players still remember half the people they played with.
In fact, many of my friends from EQ I still talk to daily.
The harsh experiences bind you.
You are actively being forced to get to know the other person. You are forced to trust the other person. You are forced to get along with the other person. And eventually you create a bond.
Can you make friends without those experiences? Yes. Is it the same thing? No.
All that it takes is competent group and willigness to dump people if they cant perform. Dont kid yourself, theres nothiing all that social about progression.
And trinity hasnt really changed a lot in 10 years, so its not like its something completely new and unknown, it works on same principle (a bit more streamlined) for very long time now.
Just read post above and youll get the picture. L2 was even more competitive than WoW ever was/will be.
AI in trinity is dumb, thats a fact.
You're under the impression that the people making true friends and getting married in EQ were the average EQ player, which brings us back to the whole rose-colored glasses thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I find it highly unlikely that the ~10 early MMORPGs I played differed much from EQ. Trade chat in these games was not a place of stories, real life chatter, and marriage. Not even close. It was an endless spam of trade requests.
If anything, more socialization happens in modern trade chat due to the lack of trade spam.
Your closing statement is true, and segways into a discussion of "Should gaming be deliberately terrible, for the sake of a little socialization?", but we were talking about trade specifically and trade just wasn't a significant source of socializing. It was impersonal spam.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Trinity used to be a pretty good system, except that it tends to lead to people hugging the same spot while rotating skills. That is easy to improve though but the problem is that the current trinity is extremely simplified nowadays.
The simplified trinity also makes the games far more similar to play than trinity games like M59 and Everquest.
Acttion combat have it's bad sides as well, the good stuff though is that timing and positioning is important there.
I think we need a new trinity instead of the old, it is beyond salvation now.
Focus on offence, defence and support instead, get rid of taunts and focus on timing things together with other team members. And for gods sake, get rid of skill rotation. When using the right skill at the right time is a matter of death people can't just spamm the same skill or the same rotation and actually have to think while they play.
Keep healing limited as well (less than most modern games but more than GW2), being able to fight forever due to heals doesn't actually make combat more fun but good timed heals should be a winner, having too much heal though just means the healer can spamm them.
MMOs need something new now, we have gotten a constantly simplified trinity mechanics the last 12 years and the fun in it just isn't there anymore. We could try to make it more advanced again but it would be easier and probably more fun to add something new and original instead.
You are right. The best chat I seen was actually Lineage because there you earned the right to chat, low level characters couldn't use it and spammers got banned (at least in the beginning).
But Ki also have a point, friends in the old days were rather different from now, maybe that was because we were a small bunch of people with common interests back then. When everybody games it is harder to find like minded.
Its a fact of life. Shared adversity creates a sense of community. Thats the premise EQ was based on and the element lacking in modern mmos. Its fine if people only want fast shallow mmo gaming, but some people really enjoy interdependence and there is no arguing that the games that had it managed to keep a healthy playerbase longer than those without.
saying the trinity is superior merely implies that the person can't think for themselves. It's a confined mode of play used for people who can't actually collaborate with other players and self sacrifice for the benefit of the group. It seems perfect for the individual who plays a more open gamestyle then claims it's nothing but dps, but to say it's actually better is simply false. The forced trinity guides people into a direction that limits the need for a player to think, communicate, and actually try to accomplish the task at hand.
Tell me this; What actually sounds more like a game?
1) you stand at a fork in the road, and there are three paths you can choose from. Which do you take?
or
2) you stand at a fork in the road, and you are wearing a blue shirt so you take the road with the blue line down it.
notice the lack of a question mark at the end of 2?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Spot on.
This is why i always find it funny that people want to be forced to socialize. They reminisce about the good old days of camping and socializing, as if they had a choice. The socialization was just the side effect of terrible game design.
In my 10 years of WoW, i've never made a friend through dungeons, raiding, or farming. I have made many friends though by actually congregating at regular social spots, such as goldshire or other dueling areas, and i still keep in contact with some of them for almost 4 years now. None of it was forced.
As for trinity gameplay, it's not superior, it's just an older mechanic that people enjoy. I prefer action-combat though, because it's more mobile and reactive.
I also find it funny that people always refer to GW2 as if it's the only action-combat MMO out there. ESO, WS, TSW, Tera, and others also have action-combat, but nobody ever mentions them, because they actually do it quite well.
Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.
TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system. Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.
Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.
So why are you still pushing this tangent and completely unrelated discussion? It has nothing to do with the Trinity System. Maybe the Pace of Combat annoys you in some Trinity Games, but that also has nothing to do with Trinity or even the combat system since Developers can balance that without ever touching the combat mechanics, by simply changing numbers in various players (Skill/Melee/Spell damage, MOB Health, Crit Rates, Base Crit Damage and Modifiers, etc.).