Skyforge does a good job without having a healer by having a really great method of allowing DPS to cause heals (health orbs) as they damage the boss. Really, cannot praise that idea enough, it is the best innovation I have seen in an MMO in ages. Should be noted that they still have support classes that take the place of healers, though, just with more interesting and varied gameplay.
Every other example of a game that had no healers has lead to insanely awful PvE content.
I think developers are wanting to get away from healing for a couple of reasons. The first being that they want to stand out, and this is the current trendy way to do it. The second being that they do not understand how healing is fun, likely because they do not understand how good healers play. Timing boss hits, pre-casting heals, and preemptively HoTing players is fun. Games that do not require healers to do those things are just suffering from lazy design, not suffering from healing being boring. Healing is fun when it requires the healer to correctly see what is going to happen before it occurs, and that is what games should aim for.
You also come down to the dillema of many developers looking at RPGs and realizing that a majority of players end up wanting to be a DPS class making your tanks and healers much lower (to the point you can usually get an instant group if you and a friend play tank and healer together, but may need to wait if you are one or the other (less wait with tank as there are more healers). If they are catering to how the audience seemingly wants to play making games fully trinity based isn't working because you leave people that are DPS behind unless they make a group that has a healer and tank with some friends to begin with or get in a helpful guild.
I think the reason it's being looked at so heavily though among newer games is that the audience playing these games just really doesn't seem to want the trinity much as they seem to whine about it the vocal minority does not make up the majority of gamers. If we want the trinity to stay more of us need to take on the tank and healer roles so there are enough to go around. I also wish we'd bring back actual support classes and people that properly know how to work Crowd Control etc and the like, fights are so oversimplified since it became tank, dps, and heals...
Like someone said Skyforge has no healers and people still play it and the servers aren't empty yet. I like playing healers sometimes and having no healer role was not one of the reasons I stopped playing Skyforge. What's interesting is that some groups of their mobs use the trinity system.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Skyforge has no trinity, and soloing dungeon require skill, if you do the ones in "impossible" Blade and soul has no healer, but when you deal damages you can regen your hp back.
It makes games more immersives, you move more, and don't stay away throwing fireballs without moving ^^' Dodge is the basics of these new games, you are not much heal, so don't take damages.
Killing a boss with heal is nice, but being able to kill one without a heal (as a dps) cause you know how to dodge and move is just sooooooo nice
Absence of heal just means another way to heal yourself, in Skyforge boss got several life bars and each bar drop life ball. In B&S you can insert gem on your weapon that sucks ennemy's life, and some skill regen life (just for a few class, the "tank" one ^^). ________________________
Holy Trinity is all but holy, you made this holy and don't want anyone to touch it, but I think it's good to test new things, progress is allways nice, and if it doesn't work they will try something else or go back to this holy trinity.
Missing this holy days when this holy planet was still holy flat and we could fall if we were going to this holy border ^^'
I'm joking but innovation is not a bad thing. Ok there is no heal but in recent games such as BDO you came move smoothly than in all the old mmo... that's a good point. I just played B&S and Skyforge and I find swtor gameplay totaly lame, and it has trinity (same for other games, i take risks : wow, aion, etc... ^^')
Sylann
No this is just the latest Flavor of Easy Mode and the newest way to Dumb Down a game down. How do we know it's easy mode? That Boss isn't painting the walls with the players insides, instead their HP regenerates? That is the definition of Easy Mode (Dumbed Down).
The innovation being praised, being able to move around. That's the game hand holding as the player crosses the street, like a five year old on their way to Daycare.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
With action combat a holy trinity is mostly just not needed as the focus is more on avoidance than absorption. Area effecting buffs become more important for support. Personally I like playing a healing class. My favorite class was the Disciple in Vanguard. I loved the healing linked to my melee attacks and also the bonds you could create with another player while fighting along side them. Good times.
That level of avoidance is not seen outside of a WWE Smackdown episode.
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
You guys think holy trinity is easy mod, I think not having a healer watching my back is hard mod... it all depends on the difficulty of the boss.
If you can do all boss solo with basic stuff yes it is easy mood, if you can do them solo only with skill and hHL stuff I don't think it's easy mod.
but I don't really care, all the one that don't have their holy trinity or their healer (cause they are just bad) will flee and only a good community will stay, if only the good stay next update will have more challenge in it ^^'
And I don't think innovation is like you said, sorry but I like innovation, if their was no innovation we would still be playing pong, with guys like you saying we don't need something new, the actual pong is soooo great...
Game's combat doesn't lend itself well to healing mechanics. Though I guess it would be an opportunity to reinvent healing as a whole. Something like the Abathur mechanic in Heroes of the storm. Be a normal character but then turn into some kind've mist and go inside of another character to provide heals or something. Then leave when they're healed or stay in them to keep up a support buff.
"The games combat doesn't lend itself well to healing mechanics"........because it was designed around not requiring healing mechanics. The trend is to not have to rely on anyone doing anything specifically to help you but rather everyone just playing in their own bubbles.
I think trinity vs. no healers is an irrelevant argument since its just a matter of gameplay. It comes down to how clever the developers are about implementing strategies in either situation.
I've played healers throughout many MMOs and have seen some ingenious designs within raids. Debuffs, AoEs, Mem Wipes, Class events, Crowd control and so much more add to the strategy of winning a battle. Its all about the design of the fight.
Ive also played games like GW2 and similar types without a healer. Again it comes down to design. You cannot progress unless you know the battles and have the skill to defeat the enemy.
Preferably, I like trinity games the most. I feel it promotes diversity within groups. However, if BDO has specific support and tank roles, I'm sure there can be plenty of strategy within the game. I will be excited to play as a support or tank. Basically, I prefer to play a class that greatly increases the chance of group survivability.
*easy gameplay *action button mashing *no community *game is deserted after 2 weeks
I see all the telltale signs of a very bad MMO in Black Desert.
As opposed to a Tank holding aggro, getting healed so there is no worry about dying and the damage dealers burning down the mobs before the tank loses aggro.
Yup that's "oh so complex".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That's funny, here are the warrior skills I used on yesterday's EQ raid according to my log.
Insult Cyclone Roar Steadfast Defense Blast of Anger Field Guardian Blade Guardian Ageless Enmity Last Stand Discipline Krondal's Roar Projection of Fury Battle Leap Warlord's Bravery Warlord's Fury Gut Punch Rage of Rallos Zek Enhanced Area Taunt Fortitude Discipline Vehement Rage Furious Leap Knee Strike Press the Attack Howl of the Warlord Fundament: First Spire of the Warlord Call of Challenge Brace For Impact Hold the Line Grappling Strike Breath of Atathus
Just a few more than pushing "aggro" then......tell me when Black Desert becomes harder than Hello Kitty.
That's funny, here are the warrior skills I used on yesterday's EQ raid according to my log.
Insult Cyclone Roar Steadfast Defense Blast of Anger Field Guardian Blade Guardian Ageless Enmity Last Stand Discipline Krondal's Roar Projection of Fury Battle Leap Warlord's Bravery Warlord's Fury Gut Punch Rage of Rallos Zek Enhanced Area Taunt Fortitude Discipline Vehement Rage Furious Leap Knee Strike Press the Attack Howl of the Warlord Fundament: First Spire of the Warlord Call of Challenge Brace For Impact Hold the Line Grappling Strike Breath of Atathus
Just a few more than pushing "aggro" then......tell me when Black Desert becomes harder than Hello Kitty.
That's funny, here are the warrior skills I used on yesterday's EQ raid according to my log.
Insult Cyclone Roar Steadfast Defense Blast of Anger Field Guardian Blade Guardian Ageless Enmity Last Stand Discipline Krondal's Roar Projection of Fury Battle Leap Warlord's Bravery Warlord's Fury Gut Punch Rage of Rallos Zek Enhanced Area Taunt Fortitude Discipline Vehement Rage Furious Leap Knee Strike Press the Attack Howl of the Warlord Fundament: First Spire of the Warlord Call of Challenge Brace For Impact Hold the Line Grappling Strike Breath of Atathus
Just a few more than pushing "aggro" then......tell me when Black Desert becomes harder than Hello Kitty.
Don t bother with Sovrath, he knows all.
Well, obviously I don't know all but my point wasn't about individual skills but about the larger mechanic of one person holding aggro, one person healing and then the damage dealers.
By Kyoris' logic it's not possible to have as many skills used in an action combat oriented game. And that's just ridiculous. Or by her logic, every trinity game utilizes as many skills. I play a tank in Lord of the Rings online and I don't use as many skills to keep aggro.
So maybe the real answer, as was posted by another person above is that it's more about the game design for each style and not so much Trinity rules/Action combat rules.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
*easy gameplay *action button mashing *no community *game is deserted after 2 weeks
I see all the telltale signs of a very bad MMO in Black Desert.
As opposed to a Tank holding aggro, getting healed so there is no worry about dying and the damage dealers burning down the mobs before the tank loses aggro.
Yup that's "oh so complex".
Actually it is... I mean what's the alternative everyone is DPS and just zerg down the mob?
Because it lacks significant end game pve content. However it will take longer than 2-3 weeks before you start seeing a real drop off in population... I'd say around 2 months. That said it won't be deserted, he's just an angry child. I just don't understand why people insist on spreading their negativity as much as possible.
That's funny, here are the warrior skills I used on yesterday's EQ raid according to my log.
Insult Cyclone Roar Steadfast Defense Blast of Anger Field Guardian Blade Guardian Ageless Enmity Last Stand Discipline Krondal's Roar Projection of Fury Battle Leap Warlord's Bravery Warlord's Fury Gut Punch Rage of Rallos Zek Enhanced Area Taunt Fortitude Discipline Vehement Rage Furious Leap Knee Strike Press the Attack Howl of the Warlord Fundament: First Spire of the Warlord Call of Challenge Brace For Impact Hold the Line Grappling Strike Breath of Atathus
Just a few more than pushing "aggro" then......tell me when Black Desert becomes harder than Hello Kitty.
Your comparing apples to lumber though.
EQ is all about holding a mobs attention onto 1 or a few tanks so that the damage dealers can burn it down.
BDO is about avoiding attacks entirely. You still need to burn down the mob obviously but there doesn't need to be dedicated healers in a game that has it's combat based around avoidance.
I'm not saying one is harder than the other as they both have their strengths and weaknesses but not sure why people are so pissed about this? If it's not your style then that's cool, plenty of games out there for you. If you want to try something new and outside your comfort zone then buy the game when its out and have at it
*easy gameplay *action button mashing *no community *game is deserted after 2 weeks
I see all the telltale signs of a very bad MMO in Black Desert.
As opposed to a Tank holding aggro, getting healed so there is no worry about dying and the damage dealers burning down the mobs before the tank loses aggro.
Yup that's "oh so complex".
Actually it is... I mean what's the alternative everyone is DPS and just zerg down the mob?
And it's not conceivable to have a no trinity game where every player is responsible for utilizing multiple skills in order to achieve whatever objective?
Taking out the tank means that anyone and everyone has a role to play and anyone and everyone can be a major part of the success or failure and just in complete specific ways like "I'm tank, I'm healer, I'm damage dealer".
It's just the game design that needs to be clever.
This is not to say I'm against trinity games but saying that Trinity is superior seems really silly to me. Or complex just because there is a tank, healer and damage dealers seems silly to me.
A bad company could literally have one button for the tank, one button for the healer an done button for the damage dealers and it being "Trinity" would not make it complex. It's what everyone does in the group, no matter whether it's Trinity or no Trinity that matters.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well I have yet to Beta the Black Desert but I have to agree with @Kiyoris. I have been an avid EQ and EQ2 player and the gameplay does require one to know the ins and outs of their class. There are no zones of attack displayed by the dungeon mobs. You have to actually pay attention and press more then the RMB or LMB or the spacebar. I'm talking 3 hotbars of attacks and debuffs and pressing one wrong aggro attack can wipe the group, lol you wanna hear some b itching pull that off in a raid group. I just finished the 5th CBT for Blade & Soul and that's a LMB, RMB with a few twists but the mobs all have highlighted attack zones. Seriously how difficult is that to avoid and require a healer if you don't. I can see why games such as these have no purest healer class. Even though these newer titles have this type of combat setup I'll still play them it's just I'd rather use a keyboard then just a mouse or a control pad.
*easy gameplay *action button mashing *no community *game is deserted after 2 weeks
I see all the telltale signs of a very bad MMO in Black Desert.
As opposed to a Tank holding aggro, getting healed so there is no worry about dying and the damage dealers burning down the mobs before the tank loses aggro.
Yup that's "oh so complex".
Actually it is... I mean what's the alternative everyone is DPS and just zerg down the mob?
And it's not conceivable to have a no trinity game where every player is responsible for utilizing multiple skills in order to achieve whatever objective?
Taking out the tank means that anyone and everyone has a role to play and anyone and everyone can be a major part of the success or failure and just in complete specific ways like "I'm tank, I'm healer, I'm damage dealer".
It's just the game design that needs to be clever.
This is not to say I'm against trinity games but saying that Trinity is superior seems really silly to me. Or complex just because there is a tank, healer and damage dealers seems silly to me.
A bad company could literally have one button for the tank, one button for the healer an done button for the damage dealers and it being "Trinity" would not make it complex. It's what everyone does in the group, no matter whether it's Trinity or no Trinity that matters.
Because it lacks significant end game pve content. However it will take longer than 2-3 weeks before you start seeing a real drop off in population... I'd say around 2 months. That said it won't be deserted, he's just an angry child. I just don't understand why people insist on spreading their negativity as much as possible.
BDO is not a PvE game. It's an open world PvP sandbox. Why would you ever come here for PvE content? It will last a long time because it's the PvP game that many of us have been waiting for and this genre lacking for a long time, and it's non-PvP sandboxy elements are complex and varied and attract another crowd lacking in a good game right now. No, it's not for the PvE crowd because every other game out there is for the PvE crowd.
Comments
I think the reason it's being looked at so heavily though among newer games is that the audience playing these games just really doesn't seem to want the trinity much as they seem to whine about it the vocal minority does not make up the majority of gamers. If we want the trinity to stay more of us need to take on the tank and healer roles so there are enough to go around. I also wish we'd bring back actual support classes and people that properly know how to work Crowd Control etc and the like, fights are so oversimplified since it became tank, dps, and heals...
Fixed for you.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The innovation being praised, being able to move around. That's the game hand holding as the player crosses the street, like a five year old on their way to Daycare.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
That level of avoidance is not seen outside of a WWE Smackdown episode.
Woot, Post #1.000
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If you can do all boss solo with basic stuff yes it is easy mood, if you can do them solo only with skill and hHL stuff I don't think it's easy mod.
but I don't really care, all the one that don't have their holy trinity or their healer (cause they are just bad) will flee and only a good community will stay, if only the good stay next update will have more challenge in it ^^'
And I don't think innovation is like you said, sorry but I like innovation, if their was no innovation we would still be playing pong, with guys like you saying we don't need something new, the actual pong is soooo great...
I've played healers throughout many MMOs and have seen some ingenious designs within raids. Debuffs, AoEs, Mem Wipes, Class events, Crowd control and so much more add to the strategy of winning a battle. Its all about the design of the fight.
Ive also played games like GW2 and similar types without a healer. Again it comes down to design. You cannot progress unless you know the battles and have the skill to defeat the enemy.
Preferably, I like trinity games the most. I feel it promotes diversity within groups. However, if BDO has specific support and tank roles, I'm sure there can be plenty of strategy within the game. I will be excited to play as a support or tank. Basically, I prefer to play a class that greatly increases the chance of group survivability.
Yup that's "oh so complex".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
- Albert Einstein
Insult
Cyclone Roar
Steadfast Defense
Blast of Anger
Field Guardian
Blade Guardian
Ageless Enmity
Last Stand Discipline
Krondal's Roar
Projection of Fury
Battle Leap
Warlord's Bravery
Warlord's Fury
Gut Punch
Rage of Rallos Zek
Enhanced Area Taunt
Fortitude Discipline
Vehement Rage
Furious Leap
Knee Strike
Press the Attack
Howl of the Warlord
Fundament: First Spire of the Warlord
Call of Challenge
Brace For Impact
Hold the Line
Grappling Strike
Breath of Atathus
Just a few more than pushing "aggro" then......tell me when Black Desert becomes harder than Hello Kitty.
Because it s a basic , simple, no skill game.
- Albert Einstein
Don t bother with Sovrath, he knows all.
By Kyoris' logic it's not possible to have as many skills used in an action combat oriented game. And that's just ridiculous. Or by her logic, every trinity game utilizes as many skills. I play a tank in Lord of the Rings online and I don't use as many skills to keep aggro.
So maybe the real answer, as was posted by another person above is that it's more about the game design for each style and not so much Trinity rules/Action combat rules.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
EQ is all about holding a mobs attention onto 1 or a few tanks so that the damage dealers can burn it down.
BDO is about avoiding attacks entirely. You still need to burn down the mob obviously but there doesn't need to be dedicated healers in a game that has it's combat based around avoidance.
I'm not saying one is harder than the other as they both have their strengths and weaknesses but not sure why people are so pissed about this? If it's not your style then that's cool, plenty of games out there for you. If you want to try something new and outside your comfort zone then buy the game when its out and have at it
Taking out the tank means that anyone and everyone has a role to play and anyone and everyone can be a major part of the success or failure and just in complete specific ways like "I'm tank, I'm healer, I'm damage dealer".
It's just the game design that needs to be clever.
This is not to say I'm against trinity games but saying that Trinity is superior seems really silly to me. Or complex just because there is a tank, healer and damage dealers seems silly to me.
A bad company could literally have one button for the tank, one button for the healer an done button for the damage dealers and it being "Trinity" would not make it complex. It's what everyone does in the group, no matter whether it's Trinity or no Trinity that matters.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There are no zones of attack displayed by the dungeon mobs.
You have to actually pay attention and press more then the RMB or LMB or the spacebar. I'm talking 3 hotbars of attacks and debuffs and pressing one wrong aggro attack can wipe the group, lol you wanna hear some b itching pull that off in a raid group.
I just finished the 5th CBT for Blade & Soul and that's a LMB, RMB with a few twists but the mobs all have highlighted attack zones. Seriously how difficult is that to avoid and require a healer if you don't. I can see why games such as these have no purest healer class.
Even though these newer titles have this type of combat setup I'll still play them it's just I'd rather use a keyboard then just a mouse or a control pad.
Seriously give it up.