When the developers (publishers, CEO's, everyone involved) are living substantially better lives than a vast majority of the people who consume their product... You, as a consumer, should probably learn to start calling bullsh*t when they ask for more money or say it's not enough.
I think the better question would be, are the prices, money grabbing methods, and unfair advantages offered by these Pay2Win (pretty much all of them qualify for that title) really necessary?
I really dislike WoW these days but it's one of the very few solid AAA titles that doesn't let you buy your way to the top... I take that back you can buy level 90 characters now... but that's just a boost to reduce some early grinding, actual gear and power near the top requires playing the game....
I do agree that if the developers/publishers were making a disproportional living, that would be an indicating that they are profiting unfairly off their games. However, most people in the gaming industry are making a lot LESS than comparable in other industries. Many eventually have to leave the industry, just to support themselves. The hours are long, the pay is low, and the recognition is minimal. People are in this industry because they truly enjoy it.
I will agree that executives (in most industries) make a disproportional amount of money. The gaming industry is no different.
Is there any proof of this? It seems a lot of developers used to make games out of their own homes / garage for a pittance. They may not have even been paid at all.
Now many of those people have degrees in programming, 3D art, game design, etc. They get a hefty pay increase for that. It is shown by how much more games cost to make now IMO.
I'm sure there are still indie companies working for a small amount of cash, but now there are some big companies making triple AAA games that didn't exist originally. It was mostly indie at the start. Those triple AAA companies like Bioware, Bethesda, CD Red Projekt, etc. probably pay a fairly large sum to their employees.
The days of developers making games out of their garage is not over. For every 'success' you see, there are thousands of failures. Those same developers that have skills in programming, design, etc can leave the game industry and make 50% more. Gaming is not known for paying well, or even for steady work. Developers work long, hard hours on a project, only to be laid off once it is complete. Most studios take work where they can get it, so that they can pay the bills, and hopefully be able to do a project that they actually want too. None of this is hidden. It is in the news all the time.However, players tend to discredit these issues, and not associate them with the gaming market in general.
You have to remember that many of the bigger game companies are public.. and you can see their figures. They are not outperforming other (non gaming) companies. In fact gaming companies tend to not do as well as other tech companies. People call gaming companies greedy... but is it really greedy to try to make a reasonable living?
When the developers (publishers, CEO's, everyone involved) are living substantially better lives than a vast majority of the people who consume their product... You, as a consumer, should probably learn to start calling bullsh*t when they ask for more money or say it's not enough.
I think the better question would be, are the prices, money grabbing methods, and unfair advantages offered by these Pay2Win (pretty much all of them qualify for that title) really necessary?
I really dislike WoW these days but it's one of the very few solid AAA titles that doesn't let you buy your way to the top... I take that back you can buy level 90 characters now... but that's just a boost to reduce some early grinding, actual gear and power near the top requires playing the game....
I do agree that if the developers/publishers were making a disproportional living, that would be an indicating that they are profiting unfairly off their games. However, most people in the gaming industry are making a lot LESS than comparable in other industries. Many eventually have to leave the industry, just to support themselves. The hours are long, the pay is low, and the recognition is minimal. People are in this industry because they truly enjoy it.
I will agree that executives (in most industries) make a disproportional amount of money. The gaming industry is no different.
Is there any proof of this? It seems a lot of developers used to make games out of their own homes / garage for a pittance. They may not have even been paid at all.
Now many of those people have degrees in programming, 3D art, game design, etc. They get a hefty pay increase for that. It is shown by how much more games cost to make now IMO.
I'm sure there are still indie companies working for a small amount of cash, but now there are some big companies making triple AAA games that didn't exist originally. It was mostly indie at the start. Those triple AAA companies like Bioware, Bethesda, CD Red Projekt, etc. probably pay a fairly large sum to their employees.
The days of developers making games out of their garage is not over. For every 'success' you see, there are thousands of failures. Those same developers that have skills in programming, design, etc can leave the game industry and make 50% more. Gaming is not known for paying well, or even for steady work. Developers work long, hard hours on a project, only to be laid off once it is complete. Most studios take work where they can get it, so that they can pay the bills, and hopefully be able to do a project that they actually want too. None of this is hidden. It is in the news all the time.However, players tend to discredit these issues, and not associate them with the gaming market in general.
You have to remember that many of the bigger game companies are public.. and you can see their figures. They are not outperforming other (non gaming) companies. In fact gaming companies tend to not do as well as other tech companies. People call gaming companies greedy... but is it really greedy to try to make a reasonable living?
Considering how much triple games cost to make it seems the money must be going somewhere. Even the kick starters have made a bundle by promising games and taking off with the money. I'm sure it's a difficult job, but usually if you are a programmer or 3D modeller you are getting paid far more then would see you in destitution I would think. I'm imaging they make a lot more then I do and I survive.
I just did a quick google search and they seem to make quite a bit. Not that they don't deserve it, but it's a lot more than I make.
When the developers (publishers, CEO's, everyone involved) are living substantially better lives than a vast majority of the people who consume their product... You, as a consumer, should probably learn to start calling bullsh*t when they ask for more money or say it's not enough.
I think the better question would be, are the prices, money grabbing methods, and unfair advantages offered by these Pay2Win (pretty much all of them qualify for that title) really necessary?
I really dislike WoW these days but it's one of the very few solid AAA titles that doesn't let you buy your way to the top... I take that back you can buy level 90 characters now... but that's just a boost to reduce some early grinding, actual gear and power near the top requires playing the game....
I do agree that if the developers/publishers were making a disproportional living, that would be an indicating that they are profiting unfairly off their games. However, most people in the gaming industry are making a lot LESS than comparable in other industries. Many eventually have to leave the industry, just to support themselves. The hours are long, the pay is low, and the recognition is minimal. People are in this industry because they truly enjoy it.
I will agree that executives (in most industries) make a disproportional amount of money. The gaming industry is no different.
Is there any proof of this? It seems a lot of developers used to make games out of their own homes / garage for a pittance. They may not have even been paid at all.
Now many of those people have degrees in programming, 3D art, game design, etc. They get a hefty pay increase for that. It is shown by how much more games cost to make now IMO.
I'm sure there are still indie companies working for a small amount of cash, but now there are some big companies making triple AAA games that didn't exist originally. It was mostly indie at the start. Those triple AAA companies like Bioware, Bethesda, CD Red Projekt, etc. probably pay a fairly large sum to their employees.
The days of developers making games out of their garage is not over. For every 'success' you see, there are thousands of failures. Those same developers that have skills in programming, design, etc can leave the game industry and make 50% more. Gaming is not known for paying well, or even for steady work. Developers work long, hard hours on a project, only to be laid off once it is complete. Most studios take work where they can get it, so that they can pay the bills, and hopefully be able to do a project that they actually want too. None of this is hidden. It is in the news all the time.However, players tend to discredit these issues, and not associate them with the gaming market in general.
You have to remember that many of the bigger game companies are public.. and you can see their figures. They are not outperforming other (non gaming) companies. In fact gaming companies tend to not do as well as other tech companies. People call gaming companies greedy... but is it really greedy to try to make a reasonable living?
Considering how much triple games cost to make it seems the money must be going somewhere. Even the kick starters have made a bundle by promising games and taking off with the money. I'm sure it's a difficult job, but usually if you are a programmer or 3D modeller you are getting paid far more then would see you in destitution I would think. I'm imaging they make a lot more then I do and I survive.
I just did a quick google search and they seem to make quite a bit. Not that they don't deserve it, but it's a lot more than I make.
The big difference in the cost of games is the amount of manhours needed to produce content. As the graphic quality, and complexity of games has increased, both the skillsets needed and the amount of manhours needed to make them has skyrocketed.
As for comparison of pay. Well, it is only fair to compare the same job, across different industries. Many game developers can use their same skillset in other markets. These comparable jobs are both more stable, and generally pay better.
I will clearly state that I am in the gaming industry, and had to take a salary cut of ~50% to make the transition. I have seen many developers come and go, and the only people that stay, are those that really want to make games (everyone else eventually takes a better job).
When the developers (publishers, CEO's, everyone involved) are living substantially better lives than a vast majority of the people who consume their product... You, as a consumer, should probably learn to start calling bullsh*t when they ask for more money or say it's not enough.
I think the better question would be, are the prices, money grabbing methods, and unfair advantages offered by these Pay2Win (pretty much all of them qualify for that title) really necessary?
I really dislike WoW these days but it's one of the very few solid AAA titles that doesn't let you buy your way to the top... I take that back you can buy level 90 characters now... but that's just a boost to reduce some early grinding, actual gear and power near the top requires playing the game....
I do agree that if the developers/publishers were making a disproportional living, that would be an indicating that they are profiting unfairly off their games. However, most people in the gaming industry are making a lot LESS than comparable in other industries. Many eventually have to leave the industry, just to support themselves. The hours are long, the pay is low, and the recognition is minimal. People are in this industry because they truly enjoy it.
I will agree that executives (in most industries) make a disproportional amount of money. The gaming industry is no different.
Is there any proof of this? It seems a lot of developers used to make games out of their own homes / garage for a pittance. They may not have even been paid at all.
Now many of those people have degrees in programming, 3D art, game design, etc. They get a hefty pay increase for that. It is shown by how much more games cost to make now IMO.
I'm sure there are still indie companies working for a small amount of cash, but now there are some big companies making triple AAA games that didn't exist originally. It was mostly indie at the start. Those triple AAA companies like Bioware, Bethesda, CD Red Projekt, etc. probably pay a fairly large sum to their employees.
The days of developers making games out of their garage is not over. For every 'success' you see, there are thousands of failures. Those same developers that have skills in programming, design, etc can leave the game industry and make 50% more. Gaming is not known for paying well, or even for steady work. Developers work long, hard hours on a project, only to be laid off once it is complete. Most studios take work where they can get it, so that they can pay the bills, and hopefully be able to do a project that they actually want too. None of this is hidden. It is in the news all the time.However, players tend to discredit these issues, and not associate them with the gaming market in general.
You have to remember that many of the bigger game companies are public.. and you can see their figures. They are not outperforming other (non gaming) companies. In fact gaming companies tend to not do as well as other tech companies. People call gaming companies greedy... but is it really greedy to try to make a reasonable living?
Considering how much triple games cost to make it seems the money must be going somewhere. Even the kick starters have made a bundle by promising games and taking off with the money. I'm sure it's a difficult job, but usually if you are a programmer or 3D modeller you are getting paid far more then would see you in destitution I would think. I'm imaging they make a lot more then I do and I survive.
I just did a quick google search and they seem to make quite a bit. Not that they don't deserve it, but it's a lot more than I make.
The big difference in the cost of games is the amount of manhours needed to produce content. As the graphic quality, and complexity of games has increased, both the skillsets needed and the amount of manhours needed to make them has skyrocketed.
As for comparison of pay. Well, it is only fair to compare the same job, across different industries. Many game developers can use their same skillset in other markets. These comparable jobs are both more stable, and generally pay better.
I will clearly state that I am in the gaming industry, and had to take a salary cut of ~50% to make the transition. I have seen many developers come and go, and the only people that stay, are those that really want to make games (everyone else eventually takes a better job).
I don't want to belittle your case, but I added a few numbers from ign.com for typical salaries in 2012. It appears that the least paid that actually work on something that went into the game was people in art and animation. They still got paid 75000 per year. I can't imagine that someone can't survive on that. I know some people have extravagant lifestyles, but many people make far less than that. It may be correct that you can make more money in another industry, but that would just be more padding for a more extravagant life style.
It doesn't matter and I don't care. It is their money, period. Who is to say that they are rich. This could just be their hobby. My hobbies cost me a lot as well. It's a matter of what you enjoy. That said in Rappelz years back when Death Tyrants were rare. I saw people, knew people spending thousands a month at least. Lots of people. I also knew a trader who absolutely knew everyone. All the big spenders. He would tell me about his antics even show me the kinds of rupees trading hands. He was smack in the middle of it. Had this stuff down like a Wall Street trader. Not given server or names in case he plays. I haven't talked to him in years not sure if he plays or if it would hurt him or not.
Not a rupee seller. He played the economy very well. It was very volatile but predictable due to you knew at some point something would go on sale and you could soak that item up cheap. Then wait half a year, year and dump it at a high point. He was so setup at this point that he was always able to react to economy high points for a given item. He alone could manipulate the tier 6 pet market at times. He was a middle man who also insured safe trades between people. Very trusted.
The best part is there were people way more influential than him. Economy power. I know people pretty much spent what my vehicles values were in a year. I admit it was hard for me to be around those people. I wasn't jealous but item wise I just couldn't keep up with them and I wanted to. They payed a lot of money to be gods essentially. ALOT of money. Happy for them.
I did good for awhile spent less than $100 whole time. But I saved up event items for years. Just lots of crap sat in my bank. I had a 150 Kenta. Highly cubed gear on that pet, awesome. I got greedy though and traded it all for rupees / tame protections. 26 tries back to back. Over the course of weeks I first hand saw people taming Death Tyrants in 2 tries. I was in the taming parties helping to kill the tames.
I lost and thus lost all motivation to rebuild myself back up. It's how these games are designed. some worse than others. But does it matter? If you enjoy a game take your time. Build your wealth and value and if you are careful maybe even slightly lucky playing the odds. Anyone can get to a given point with or without money.
I don't want to belittle your case, but I added a few numbers from ign.com for typical salaries in 2012. It appears that the least paid that actually work on something that went into the game was people in art and animation. They still got paid 75000 per year. I can't imagine that someone can't survive on that. I know some people have extravagant lifestyles, but many people make far less than that. It may be correct that you can make more money in another industry, but that would just be more padding for a more extravagant life style.
I'd trade a 75k, 60-hour week, low job security job for a 60k, 40-hour week, reasonable security job in a heartbeat. You'd be surprised how many people in the game industry don't own much more than can fit in the back of an SUV. But what they lack in possessions due to having to regularly move for their next job, they make up for in an endless supply of stress over little things like "I wonder where I'm getting rent money from" and "Ah, switching schools mid-year. Can't wait to tell the kids"
That 75k is indicative of the higher tiers of art and animation, but I haven't seen anything to support it being the average or the norm for those departments.
Almost everyone I've met that works in the industry, and I have met hundreds if not thousands, does it for the love of the work, the love of gaming, and the love of being part of it all. That's why it's so bothersome to me to read the ignorant blustering of forum trolls going on about how game devs are rich, lazy, non-gamers. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
@Flyte27 They are working in the entertainment industry. They deserve every penny they get. You need to stop and consider why they get paid like they do. Their employment comes in cycles. If it isn't a big enough studio that knows how to cycle work, the programmers and artists are usually the first ones to go when a title launches and may or may not be brought back in for the live team and from expansion to update to expansion, etc. Definately not the most stable working conditions for people to work in.
The point being that they get paid a lot of money. It matters little if they deserve it or not. I wasn't arguing that point. The point is it's plenty of money to live on. You can't claim destitution based on the fact that you feel you are underpaid for your work if you are making enough money to live very comfortable IMO.
@Flyte27 They are working in the entertainment industry. They deserve every penny they get. You need to stop and consider why they get paid like they do. Their employment comes in cycles. If it isn't a big enough studio that knows how to cycle work, the programmers and artists are usually the first ones to go when a title launches and may or may not be brought back in for the live team and from expansion to update to expansion, etc. Definately not the most stable working conditions for people to work in.
The point being that they get paid a lot of money. It matters little if they deserve it or not. I wasn't arguing that point. The point is it's plenty of money to live on. You can't claim destitution based on the fact that you feel you are underpaid for your work if you are making enough money to live very comfortable IMO.
San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin, Boston... big cities for game developers. Hey, what do you think it costs to rent a house in LA?
No one is saying devs are destitute, so for the sakeof constructive discussion, let's avoid the hyperbole, ok? And 75k is comfortable if there's a good chance you've still got a job next month. The fact is that for many devs, that's never really a certainty.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
@Flyte27 They are working in the entertainment industry. They deserve every penny they get. You need to stop and consider why they get paid like they do. Their employment comes in cycles. If it isn't a big enough studio that knows how to cycle work, the programmers and artists are usually the first ones to go when a title launches and may or may not be brought back in for the live team and from expansion to update to expansion, etc. Definately not the most stable working conditions for people to work in.
The point being that they get paid a lot of money. It matters little if they deserve it or not. I wasn't arguing that point. The point is it's plenty of money to live on. You can't claim destitution based on the fact that you feel you are underpaid for your work if you are making enough money to live very comfortable IMO.
San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin, Boston... big cities for game developers. Hey, what do you think it costs to rent a house in LA?
No one is saying devs are destitute, so for the sakeof constructive discussion, let's avoid the hyperbole, ok? And 75k is comfortable if there's a good chance you've still got a job next month. The fact is that for many devs, that's never really a certainty.
That was the lowest salary. Programmers apparently make 95 thousand a year.
I realize some places are expensive to live in.
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable, but it doesn't pay nearly that amount and steady jobs are rare. I work in a library and large amount of people who do work here are contracted like the people who repair the building, write applications, or teach classes. It seems a lot of work is of the variety where you come in and complete a task and then move on in this new society. It seems people want to be on the move today. They don't like wasting their time.
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable...
When you get laid off, let me know how that "then move on" part works out for you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable...
When you get laid off, let me know how that "then move on" part works out for you.
exactly why I wouldn't want to work for a game developer or the movie industry for that matter. (CGI) To volatile. Job security just isn't there. I guess If I had my first retirement. Say military. Maybe... That would provide a bit of a safety net. Just seems like such a dangerous job unless you work for yourself or your project. Alas I am no programmer or artist though.
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable...
When you get laid off, let me know how that "then move on" part works out for you.
I still don't feel bad for them. It's a choice in life and working on making a game can be very exciting. You generally know what you are getting into when you take a job. There are other jobs like having to haul garbage around all day and get a bad back that I feel kind of sorry for. It's not stressful and it's a simple job, but it's tedious, hard on your body, and you aren't in a field that is exciting and teaching you new things. Also you get far less respect then someone who is a programmer or an artist. I guess everything has it's trade offs.
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable...
When you get laid off, let me know how that "then move on" part works out for you.
I still don't feel bad for them. It's a choice in life and working on making a game can be very exciting.
No one asked you to feel bad for anyone, Flyte.Shania even said "No one is saying have a pity party for devs. Just saying working in the gaming industry is ultra stressful and they do it for the love of the game more than the money."
You said they're financially comfortable. I'm explaining how, for most in the industry, that's not true.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And you are saying that you get to determine what others feel is 'pay to win'.
No, I'm saying it has to do with things which are actually considered winning. Nobody has ever seriously considered it 'winning' to receive a hat.
I'm also describing the obvious intent of the phrase. Pattern mastery is the most common way games are enjoyed (Koster, 2004) and P2W was originally meant to criticize F2P purchases which short-circuit the most common pattern mastery. It was a common enough problem in other genres that the term arose there. It's never been a significant problem in MMORPGs, yet MMORPG players seem to automatically assume that it applies to their genre (mostly because they're not putting any real thought into how the term works.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@Axehilt 5 years ago, your argument had merit. Today, not so much. We have seen the cash shops go from the purely cosmetic to out right pure P2W. We have had great gaming Syndicates that once would shun any type of RMT and flip on the subject and require you to BUY all that you can be if you want to be on their "A Team". It used to be about skill and earning your positions on raid teams by dedication, hard work, and loyalty to the team. Now, it's who can buy the most the fastest to field the best team first. Loyal players are being marginalized by wallets and it's sad to see.
My argument is winning is winning. The merit of stating the obvious hasn't changed, nor would it change if MMORPGs commonly involved P2W (winning would still be winning, and P2W would be more common, and that'd be bad, but it wouldn't change the merit of what I've said.)
As for your vague generalization, name many specific MMORPGs which offer P2W purchases. (Keeping in mind that only things which make a game's challenges easier are actually winning; stuff like stat potions or statted gear which makes battles easier.) The inevitability of this thought exercise is you'll realize that a good many MMORPGs are just vanity/convenience purchases which don't actually bypass the need for skill to beat the game's challenges. Will you still come up with specific examples? Maybe. I'm sure a few exist out there...it's just not common among the larger games (which mostly sell non-winning stuff: cosmetics, conveniences, and time-savers.)
In other genres (for example Travian-like online strategy games) actual P2W is more common. You can often outright buy power increases that allow you to circumvent challenge, which is precisely what the term refers to.
Post edited by Axehilt on
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@Axehilt 5 years ago, your argument had merit. Today, not so much. We have seen the cash shops go from the purely cosmetic to out right pure P2W. We have had great gaming Syndicates that once would shun any type of RMT and flip on the subject and require you to BUY all that you can be if you want to be on their "A Team". It used to be about skill and earning your positions on raid teams by dedication, hard work, and loyalty to the team. Now, it's who can buy the most the fastest to field the best team first. Loyal players are being marginalized by wallets and it's sad to see.
My argument is winning is winning. The merit of stating the obvious hasn't changed, nor would it change if MMORPGs commonly involved P2W (winning would still be winning, and P2W would be more common, and that'd be bad, but it wouldn't change the merit of what I've said.)
As for your vague generalization, name many specific MMORPGs which offer P2W purchases. (Keeping in mind that only things which make a game's challenges easier are actually winning; stuff like stat potions or statted gear which makes battles easier.) The inevitability of this thought exercise is you'll realize that a good many MMORPGs are just vanity/convenience purchases which don't actually bypass the need for skill to beat the game's challenges. Will you still come up with specific examples? Maybe. I'm sure a few exist out there...it's just not common among the larger games (which mostly sell non-winning stuff: cosmetics, conveniences, and time-savers.)
Great! Glad to see that you totally agree with me. I accept your choice to self define winning, and have done the same myself.
I spent $800 over a two month period on Runes of Magic and I am an absolute loser in real life. The most I've personally witnessed was a guild member of mine in the same game spent $22,000. Those HOGG dudes looted a weapon from him that was worth $800 and griefed him by posting it in world chat until he quit. I hope that helps you.
Great! Glad to see that you totally agree with me. I accept your choice to self define winning, and have done the same myself.
Except you're applying "win" to things which are virtually never considered winning (having a nice-looking hat) and I'm applying it to things always considered winning (beating the boss.) So yeah...our definitions are actually quite different from one another, and one is grounded in the literal definition of win while the other is completely arbitrary.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@Axehilt 5 years ago, your argument had merit. Today, not so much. We have seen the cash shops go from the purely cosmetic to out right pure P2W. We have had great gaming Syndicates that once would shun any type of RMT and flip on the subject and require you to BUY all that you can be if you want to be on their "A Team". It used to be about skill and earning your positions on raid teams by dedication, hard work, and loyalty to the team. Now, it's who can buy the most the fastest to field the best team first. Loyal players are being marginalized by wallets and it's sad to see.
As for your vague generalization, name many specific MMORPGs which offer P2W purchases. (Keeping in mind that only things which make a game's challenges easier are actually winning; stuff like stat potions or statted gear which makes battles easier.)
While I'm usually on the other side of this argument, I'd submit that games with XP boosters, (Lotro, Swtor, many more) could be considered pay to win. While they don't immediately make it easier to "beat the boss", you'll eventually over-level the content, which will likely make that future "yellow boss" a "green boss", and thus, easier to kill.
But I do tend to agree that the P2W label gets way...way...WAY overused...
@Axehilt 5 years ago, your argument had merit. Today, not so much. We have seen the cash shops go from the purely cosmetic to out right pure P2W. We have had great gaming Syndicates that once would shun any type of RMT and flip on the subject and require you to BUY all that you can be if you want to be on their "A Team". It used to be about skill and earning your positions on raid teams by dedication, hard work, and loyalty to the team. Now, it's who can buy the most the fastest to field the best team first. Loyal players are being marginalized by wallets and it's sad to see.
What games have P2W in their shops?
Please provide the game and which items you are referring to.
While I'm usually on the other side of this argument, I'd submit that games with XP boosters, (Lotro, Swtor, many more) could be considered pay to win. While they don't immediately make it easier to "beat the boss", you'll eventually over-level the content, which will likely make that future "yellow boss" a "green boss", and thus, easier to kill.
But I do tend to agree that the P2W label gets way...way...WAY overused...
Well it's fine to criticize a game for implementing a tedious grind to sell XP boosters. We need to remember that P2W isn't the only way to criticize item shops. If a game does that, it's not P2W but it's still bad game design and that deserves criticism.
But primarily XP boosters are just skipping repetition rather than letting you skip or reduce the need for skill. You'll typically still need to kill each new monster type a few times (proving you have enough skill to beat the challenge) in order to progress, you just won't have to repeat that process the 100th time because the booster let's you level up into the next monster quicker.
Facing the green boss doesn't really make things easier in a way you couldn't achieve normally (I don't need an XP potion to deliberately fight green bosses and have an easy time.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I spent $800 over a two month period on Runes of Magic and I am an absolute loser in real life. The most I've personally witnessed was a guild member of mine in the same game spent $22,000. Those HOGG dudes looted a weapon from him that was worth $800 and griefed him by posting it in world chat until he quit. I hope that helps you.
Guess this is the reason why it seems like more F2P games are avoiding PvPer(new Nexon games, upcoming Aeria games), or aiming to be more MOBA like(raw arena style games, or ones without any kind of progress loss(future progress reduction is fine and monetizable though)). The ability of the community to scare away a Whale is a very bad thing. PvPers are very good at scaring away the community, or just being expensive to have in a game(always complaining about balance, needing frequent 'free' updates to keep the metagame fresh, and needing an extensive 'game mechanic' support) .
Which I guess is kind of a good thing. Since any game with meaningful PvPer is terrible as F2P(free scouts, too easy to set up targets, and similar).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
@Axehilt 5 years ago, your argument had merit. Today, not so much. We have seen the cash shops go from the purely cosmetic to out right pure P2W. We have had great gaming Syndicates that once would shun any type of RMT and flip on the subject and require you to BUY all that you can be if you want to be on their "A Team". It used to be about skill and earning your positions on raid teams by dedication, hard work, and loyalty to the team. Now, it's who can buy the most the fastest to field the best team first. Loyal players are being marginalized by wallets and it's sad to see.
What games have P2W in their shops?
Please provide the game and which items you are referring to.
If a game launches F2P, it is my choice to play or not. Changing the business model after a game launches, IMHO, is unethical. At that point, I believe existing players are due compensation equal to the amount the player has already invested in the game for cash shop purchases or some sort of "subbed for life" type benefit. Previous supporters deserve that respect. To Turbine's credit, their sub to F2P conversion was the best to date. Most companies gave the players the middle finger.
Class this here is what we call the entitlement mentality.
ESO is NOT P2W lol I can't comment on WoT never played it.
Great! Glad to see that you totally agree with me. I accept your choice to self define winning, and have done the same myself.
Except you're applying "win" to things which are virtually never considered winning (having a nice-looking hat) and I'm applying it to things always considered winning (beating the boss.) So yeah...our definitions are actually quite different from one another, and one is grounded in the literal definition of win while the other is completely arbitrary.
Your opinion on what is winning for you is either valid (and so is mine) or it is not (and neither is mine). However, if it is just that your opinion is right for everyone (else), then you are wrong as long as there is anyone out there that doesn't agree (and I am ok with you being wrong as well).
I've already said it. Look at the gamelist on this website. If you see the word item mall, it's 90% likelihood it's P2W. Is it to verying degrees. Absolutely. Want specific ones as examples? Fine. World of Tanks. You can buy best ammo and tanks in the game RIGHT NOW that will take those not willing to open their wallet months to get. Vindictus. In there you can spend $600 and have enough stat points literally to be tied with the best stat players on the server. ESO. You can buy glyphs out the cash shop to min/max your toon for best stats for your build that would take you weeks if not months to buy. My point is, don't try to tell me a cash shop isn't P2W. If an item that you can buy for cash gives you a statistical advantage over another player regardless of the length of the boost is good for, it is still pay to win.
If a game launches F2P, it is my choice to play or not. Changing the business model after a game launches, IMHO, is unethical. At that point, I believe existing players are due compensation equal to the amount the player has already invested in the game for cash shop purchases or some sort of "subbed for life" type benefit. Previous supporters deserve that respect. To Turbine's credit, their sub to F2P conversion was the best to date. Most companies gave the players the middle finger.
World of Tanks free players can use premium ammo and when they play in their mid-tier tank they will be matched against other mid-tier opponents, and so they're not actually disadvantaged compared with paying players.
This is ESO's store. It only has cosmetics, conveniences, and time-savers. The glyphs you mention aren't there.
Back when WoT sold premium ammo only with premium currency, that was P2W. It was a concrete advantage that made winning require less skill.
Nowadays WoT isn't P2W and a team of free players is on even footing against payers. In practice the free players are likely to win slightly more. It took them substantially more playtime to reach that tank tier, so they'll typically have a slight skill advantage.
Basically you're not describing pay to win things, you're describing advantages. Pay to win is (naturally) about winning. If you wanted to criticize advantages, you'd probably just say "purchase" or "paid advantage" since the things you're talking about don't relate to winning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
You have to remember that many of the bigger game companies are public.. and you can see their figures. They are not outperforming other (non gaming) companies. In fact gaming companies tend to not do as well as other tech companies. People call gaming companies greedy... but is it really greedy to try to make a reasonable living?
I just did a quick google search and they seem to make quite a bit. Not that they don't deserve it, but it's a lot more than I make.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/04/03/how-much-do-game-developers-make
As for comparison of pay. Well, it is only fair to compare the same job, across different industries. Many game developers can use their same skillset in other markets. These comparable jobs are both more stable, and generally pay better.
I will clearly state that I am in the gaming industry, and had to take a salary cut of ~50% to make the transition. I have seen many developers come and go, and the only people that stay, are those that really want to make games (everyone else eventually takes a better job).
Not a rupee seller. He played the economy very well. It was very volatile but predictable due to you knew at some point something would go on sale and you could soak that item up cheap. Then wait half a year, year and dump it at a high point. He was so setup at this point that he was always able to react to economy high points for a given item. He alone could manipulate the tier 6 pet market at times. He was a middle man who also insured safe trades between people. Very trusted.
The best part is there were people way more influential than him. Economy power. I know people pretty much spent what my vehicles values were in a year. I admit it was hard for me to be around those people. I wasn't jealous but item wise I just couldn't keep up with them and I wanted to. They payed a lot of money to be gods essentially. ALOT of money. Happy for them.
I did good for awhile spent less than $100 whole time. But I saved up event items for years. Just lots of crap sat in my bank. I had a 150 Kenta. Highly cubed gear on that pet, awesome. I got greedy though and traded it all for rupees / tame protections. 26 tries back to back. Over the course of weeks I first hand saw people taming Death Tyrants in 2 tries. I was in the taming parties helping to kill the tames.
I lost and thus lost all motivation to rebuild myself back up. It's how these games are designed. some worse than others. But does it matter? If you enjoy a game take your time. Build your wealth and value and if you are careful maybe even slightly lucky playing the odds. Anyone can get to a given point with or without money.
That 75k is indicative of the higher tiers of art and animation, but I haven't seen anything to support it being the average or the norm for those departments.
Almost everyone I've met that works in the industry, and I have met hundreds if not thousands, does it for the love of the work, the love of gaming, and the love of being part of it all. That's why it's so bothersome to me to read the ignorant blustering of forum trolls going on about how game devs are rich, lazy, non-gamers. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hey, what do you think it costs to rent a house in LA?
No one is saying devs are destitute, so for the sakeof constructive discussion, let's avoid the hyperbole, ok? And 75k is comfortable if there's a good chance you've still got a job next month. The fact is that for many devs, that's never really a certainty.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I realize some places are expensive to live in.
I'd imagine that some the job is on demand like many jobs out there today. You work on a job and then move on. I happen to have a job that is fairly stable, but it doesn't pay nearly that amount and steady jobs are rare. I work in a library and large amount of people who do work here are contracted like the people who repair the building, write applications, or teach classes. It seems a lot of work is of the variety where you come in and complete a task and then move on in this new society. It seems people want to be on the move today. They don't like wasting their time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one asked you to feel bad for anyone, Flyte.Shania even said "No one is saying have a pity party for devs. Just saying working in the gaming industry is ultra stressful and they do it for the love of the game more than the money."
You said they're financially comfortable. I'm explaining how, for most in the industry, that's not true.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm also describing the obvious intent of the phrase. Pattern mastery is the most common way games are enjoyed (Koster, 2004) and P2W was originally meant to criticize F2P purchases which short-circuit the most common pattern mastery. It was a common enough problem in other genres that the term arose there. It's never been a significant problem in MMORPGs, yet MMORPG players seem to automatically assume that it applies to their genre (mostly because they're not putting any real thought into how the term works.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As for your vague generalization, name many specific MMORPGs which offer P2W purchases. (Keeping in mind that only things which make a game's challenges easier are actually winning; stuff like stat potions or statted gear which makes battles easier.) The inevitability of this thought exercise is you'll realize that a good many MMORPGs are just vanity/convenience purchases which don't actually bypass the need for skill to beat the game's challenges. Will you still come up with specific examples? Maybe. I'm sure a few exist out there...it's just not common among the larger games (which mostly sell non-winning stuff: cosmetics, conveniences, and time-savers.)
In other genres (for example Travian-like online strategy games) actual P2W is more common. You can often outright buy power increases that allow you to circumvent challenge, which is precisely what the term refers to.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But I do tend to agree that the P2W label gets way...way...WAY overused...
Please provide the game and which items you are referring to.
But primarily XP boosters are just skipping repetition rather than letting you skip or reduce the need for skill. You'll typically still need to kill each new monster type a few times (proving you have enough skill to beat the challenge) in order to progress, you just won't have to repeat that process the 100th time because the booster let's you level up into the next monster quicker.
Facing the green boss doesn't really make things easier in a way you couldn't achieve normally (I don't need an XP potion to deliberately fight green bosses and have an easy time.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Which I guess is kind of a good thing. Since any game with meaningful PvPer is terrible as F2P(free scouts, too easy to set up targets, and similar).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
ESO is NOT P2W lol I can't comment on WoT never played it.
This is ESO's store. It only has cosmetics, conveniences, and time-savers. The glyphs you mention aren't there.
Back when WoT sold premium ammo only with premium currency, that was P2W. It was a concrete advantage that made winning require less skill.
Nowadays WoT isn't P2W and a team of free players is on even footing against payers. In practice the free players are likely to win slightly more. It took them substantially more playtime to reach that tank tier, so they'll typically have a slight skill advantage.
Basically you're not describing pay to win things, you're describing advantages. Pay to win is (naturally) about winning. If you wanted to criticize advantages, you'd probably just say "purchase" or "paid advantage" since the things you're talking about don't relate to winning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver