Anyhoo! Let's bring things back on topic. Lot's a of mixed opinions, and I'm really interested in people's thoughts. Is PvP all or nothing, OR, how would you safely integrate PvP into a PvE-centric world?
All or nothing. Don't integrate pvp into a pve-centric game. Oh, if you make it optional, i don't care since it will never affect me.
It will never affect you because you will hate my game. I'm not too worried about that.
Oh, your specific game .... you are right ... i probably won't even notice it.
Or any game like mine with these traits (PvE focus with meaningful PvP)
yeh .. there are too many games that i like and don't have time to, certainly i won't waste time on anything that i may not like.
"Meaningful PvP" is still one of the stupidest things I've heard on these forums. Its all meaningless.
Even in Eve, wars are started because people are bored to tears. Hows that for meaningful PvP?
Really? That's one of the stupidest things you've heard here? You must have a really low bar for stupid.
If you need an explanation, "meaningful PvP" is when you attack other players for game-related reasons. Meaning there is a goal or purpose to it beyond "I once shot a man jist to watch 'im die. Yepper".
These secret to that is doing more design work beyond "It's PvP. Yay!"
e-sports is the "most meaningful pvp". You can even go pro and makes it your career.
Anyhoo! Let's bring things back on topic. Lot's a of mixed opinions, and I'm really interested in people's thoughts. Is PvP all or nothing, OR, how would you safely integrate PvP into a PvE-centric world?
Back when I
played The Matrix Online, the game involved a lot of mystery and secret
meetings. It was kinda cool. BUT! Our secret meetings were often
interrupted by rival factions. It was PvE at the time, so the best we
could do was challenge them to a duel, use harsh language, or just go to
a different location. It really broke the immersion, and I thought,
"Wouldn't it be nice (and realistic) if we could shoot these
infiltrators?"
Developers should have allowed people to play as some monsters instead of leaving them all to artificial intelligence. In Matrix they could have made matrix agents or the squiddy sentinels as playable characters. Monster characters should be real player characters with persistency, development of their own skills and evolving gameplay style, their own quests, goals, gear and skills. It enables both PvP and PvE in one. One big reason why PvE has been dull and boring in computer games is that artificial intellignece is still in its infancy. The solution I describe removes artificial intelligence out of equation.
Alien vs Predator games are a good example how it can be done.
Back when I played The Matrix Online, the game involved a lot of mystery and secret meetings. It was kinda cool. BUT! Our secret meetings were often interrupted by rival factions. It was PvE at the time, so the best we could do was challenge them to a duel, use harsh language, or just go to a different location. It really broke the immersion, and I thought, "Wouldn't it be nice (and realistic) if we could shoot these infiltrators?"
The problem, of course, is that if a game is PvP it is ONLY PvP. It's essentially just a bloodbath shooting range with no rhyme or reason. That works fine for games like COD, or MOBAs, but not an RPG.
So the question is this; is it possible to walk the line? Can you create a realistic, immersive world that focuses on exploration, crafting, socializing and a fair amount of PvE, AND allow PvP without it degrading into a warzone? Or is PvP all or nothing?
This works on samp rp servers, but it does work because creating an account there requires an application that pretty much proves you know how to rp(g) which is reviewed by the admins. It could work on an mmo were players to go through the same registering process ( unlikely for an mmorpg) .
For me an ideal MMORPG should have every creature in the hands of players. Developers can leave fish and rabbits to artificial intelligence but nearly everything else should be controlled by human players. I'd only want to see that changed once artificial intelligence reaches the complexity of Skynet.
Everyone should try to survive in their own ways. Player with a bird character should be learning how to fly or climb branches or pick worms out of the ground and steal people's crops on farms, or learn how to make nests in the trees. A bear should be roaming the woods foraging for food or hunting prey, searching for caves where to rest. People with human characters should learn how to make ranged weapons and hunt birds for feathers to make arrows for bows, or how to protect themselves from bears and make leather clothes or furs out of them.
It's not difficult to create original and unique newbie gameplay, midbie gameplay and end game for all these different creatures that somehow intersects or conflicts with gameplay of the other creatures.
For me an ideal MMORPG should have every creature in the hands of players. Developers can leave fish and rabbits to artificial intelligence but nearly everything else should be controlled by human players. I'd only want to see that changed once artificial intelligence reaches the complexity of Skynet.
Everyone should try to survive in their own ways. Player with a bird character should be learning how to fly or climb branches or pick worms out of the ground and steal people's crops on farms, or learn how to make nests in the trees. A bear should be roaming the woods foraging for food or hunting prey, searching for caves where to rest. People with human characters should learn how to make ranged weapons and hunt birds for feathers to make arrows for bows, or how to protect themselves from bears and make leather clothes or furs out of them.
It's not difficult to create original and unique newbie gameplay, midbie gameplay and end game for all these different creatures that somehow intersects or conflicts with gameplay of the other creatures.
My friend that plays a bear suicides to my blade so i can get all the fur I want. I get what you say and it would be amazing indeed but humans are a bunch of retards and would exploit it to the fullest.
For me an ideal MMORPG should have every creature in the hands of players. Developers can leave fish and rabbits to artificial intelligence but nearly everything else should be controlled by human players. I'd only want to see that changed once artificial intelligence reaches the complexity of Skynet.
Everyone should try to survive in their own ways. Player with a bird character should be learning how to fly or climb branches or pick worms out of the ground and steal people's crops on farms, or learn how to make nests in the trees. A bear should be roaming the woods foraging for food or hunting prey, searching for caves where to rest. People with human characters should learn how to make ranged weapons and hunt birds for feathers to make arrows for bows, or how to protect themselves from bears and make leather clothes or furs out of them.
It's not difficult to create original and unique newbie gameplay, midbie gameplay and end game for all these different creatures that somehow intersects or conflicts with gameplay of the other creatures.
My friend that plays a bear suicides to my blade so i can get all the fur I want. I get what you say and it would be amazing indeed but humans are a bunch of retards and would exploit it to the fullest.
Accountability usually helps to curb exploitation and stupid behaviour.
Higher level bear would have a better fur but also more to loose if he dies. He might loose exp/skill progression and respawn with a scrawny hide with reduced resistance to physical damage or less fat storages in his bear body to keep him safe from the cold weather. Losses for dying could be greater than gains for his human friend. He could still sacrifice himself to help out a friend if he really wanted to, but perhaps at a high cost.
If the game detects that someone dies repeatedly to the same people, it might respawn him on the opposite side of the game world.
While I do believe PVP centric games can be incredible experiences, my 10+ years in EVE have allowed me to understand that there is something truly amazing when the symbiotic relationship between PVP and PVE is given an environment in which to flourish together.
All or nothing? Hello no. Not in my experience.
All or nothing is BS several games have gotten this right .. Eve as mentioned .. DAoC , Asherons Call.. UO and Shadowbane ... Just takes devs to commit to those goals .. but im a fraid we wont see thata again as all Devs seem concerend with is PvPickin our pockets
Lineage 2 - particularly pre-Godess of Destruction/F2P - nailed that balance as well. The entire game was built around the interaction between PvE and PvP, to its core. Everything either influenced, or was influenced by, PvP, either directly or indirectly.
In short, PvP and PvE absolutely *can* co-exist - if the game and its content is designed with that balance and interaction in mind from the very beginning. Neither system can be tacked on later, or designed to be "separate".
Another thing that early/pre-GoD L2 had was an amazing sense of team spirit and camaraderie within clans. People took pride in the clan they belonged to, and they - almost without exception - would drop what they were doing to come to the aid of a fellow clan member if they were in trouble. Not that it *hasn't* happened in any other MMO, but I've never seen any other MMO with PvP where that kind of team spirit was present.
In L2, if you were out xp'ing and someone came along and started attacking you, you could mention it in clan chat, and the first thing someone would say is "Who is it, and where are you?". Your clan mates would drop what they were doing and head out to assist you. Many times, a few would hang around... just to make sure you could continue doing what you were, to prevent anyone else from interrupting you.
Even when I was taking a break from the PvP/politics and running with a PvE group... that sense of solidarity was there. If one of our own was being screwed with, we dropped what we were doing and ran to their defense - win or lose.
Sometimes those encounters could grow into large clan-v-clan PvP events, which could last a long time before fizzling out.
And at the end, when the encounter was concluded, whatever the outcome, the most common remark made was "GF". Yes, there was the occasional butthurt players who kept talking smack even after they'd lost, trying to salvage some of their ego/pride after the ass-kicking they'd just received.
Regardless, the point had been made loud and clear: "Don't screw with our clan members, or you deal with all of us".
Conversely...
In other MMOs with PvP that I've played - Darkfall and TERA Online come to mind as just two examples - that sense of camaraderie just does not exist. The sense of team spirit is completely missing. Mention in clan/guild chat that you're being attacked/harassed by other players, and instead of asking who it is and where you are so they can come assist, the response (at least in all my experiences) was to basically mock you, say "it's a PvP MMO. Go play WoW if you can't handle it", or any other such response. No team pride. No solidarity. Nothing. They saw it as an opportunity to mock and belittle another player, because in their minds, you're supposed to shit-talk, mock and belittle others when they're in trouble - even when they're your own clan/guild-mates.
To put it simply... for an open world, open-PvP MMO to work, there has to be the right attitude among its players. There has to be a sense of teamwork, cooperation and solidarity. These days, where the favored mantra is "me me me", you just don't see that kind of attitude anymore.
I keep waiting for a community to arise in a PvP MMO that better resembles that of old-school Lineage 2. I've all but given up hope for that to ever happen again, though. I think too many MMO players these days lack the mentality for it. To much about "me me me", and they don't understand or appreciate the idea of teamwork or team spirit.
PvP has failed over and over (one more...and over).
The player base pull from FPS is a total success! Now What?!?
The one and only problem with PvP games is a single word called exploitation. By nature, PvP means kill or be killed and that is the watered-down version. Players with PvP limitations are not happy.
Let's take a game called CounterStrike or even something decades more popular, CoD -These multiplayer games are the minor leagues compared to open world, massively multiplayer games. But, like most farms, they produce top quality PvPers.
In my example above, the point is not the game but rather the style which is FPS (not Free Pizza Stand). A FPS player is largely more aggressive from the logon than an MMO PvPer. In MMOGs, PvPers have that period of growth to overcome, whether it's training or gearing, in an FPS those things are almost instant in comparison.
PvP is great fun! PvP makes the heart heavy or happy but it is not the game. PvP can never be 'The Game' and this is why exploitation is necessary to enhance the 'fun' -killing other players in the game.
For years, before many gamers today were even born, PvP has always been the crown of MMO's. Forced PvP, developers hiding resources or xp in PvP zones' is a built-in exploitation that gamers today learn very quickly.
The game that is going beta (see MMORPG.COM) allows a player to get to Level/Rank 5 before you are more or less forced into PvP. Sitting behind every portal/gate/instance is a ganker! I can hear someone thinking, 'why go at it alone? Get into a guild or party and kick the snot outa somebody' -nods ok noob McDoogle, I will make sure all my friends and mates are up at 2am so I can chop three logs of wood for my new weapon.
Full World PvP? LOFL!!!
It doesn't work. WoW has made PvP fun but still a tree-hugging, care bear event because after killing 65,010 boars you will get the favor, the reknown, then gear (all carebear!) -You can max level unmitigated by death, death drops, etc..., before you even 'Accept' a PvP invitation or Enter a PvP Zone or Enter a PvP match. Don't get me wrong, it is fun!!!
Other full world games boiled down from 300-500k players to about 1500 dedicated people whom you see all the time. You run because they KOS (Kill on Sight) or make a stand because you now wield the most powerful weapon for your class <shrug> dunno what you plan to do!
I personally spent 3 weeks gearing up in order to do one thing in a PvP game, kill the rogue class with a robe on. Fun? Hell-to-the-Yes! Afterward, I spent 4 hours a day killing rogues (in a formed line -no joke).
In FPS, the one and only true form of PvP, skill, luck and zero latency are my friends.
All the other forms of PvP are cool too but we need to draw a reality line somewhere.
PvP has failed over and over (one more...and over).
....paragraphs of unabashed self-edifying, ignorant drivel edited out for brevity...
Seriously... What a bunch of self-serving, ignorant nonsense.
Well, "Ataaka because PvP is built into my name", speaking of "drawing a reality line"...
Insisting something can't exist, simply because you haven't experienced or seen it yourself, is not very compelling. It's just arguing from ignorance and incredulity. All you're basically saying is, "I haven't seen it, and can't believe it can exist, therefor it doesn't exist". That's called a fallacy, not a compelling argument.
For myself, the epic battles, clan wars, sieges, skirmishes, entirely player-driven player politics, back-stabbing, negotiations and such that I've experienced, first-hand, don't suddenly become fictitious or irrelevant because "Ataaka, who has PvP built in to their name" doesn't think it can happen. Those kinds of experiences were very much a reality for me for almost 5 years straight while playing Lineage 2, just to name one such MMO.
Or are you going to insist that I didn't actually experience what I actually experienced? You know, to preserve your narrative?
As for cheating and exploitation in a PvP MMO setting. Wow... Projecting a bit are we?
I've done plenty of PvP in MMO settings... Never once have I cheated or hacked or exploited. Nor have many others I've known and gamed with. So, ya know... let's avoid generalizations, yes?
While I do believe PVP centric games can be incredible experiences, my 10+ years in EVE have allowed me to understand that there is something truly amazing when the symbiotic relationship between PVP and PVE is given an environment in which to flourish together.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dude, DAOC was MMO #2 for years. (with EQ being #1 back then) UO wasn't a big hit???? uh.... Shadowbane was the top selling PC game the month it came out.
online market was small then ... none of these games were even close to the popularity of WoW, TOR, LoL, WoT, and modern online games.
Shadowbane ... lol ... 1st for a month .. and then what happened to it?
These titles dominated the known market in their day, can't compare the numbers of then and now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I do believe PVP centric games can be incredible experiences, my 10+ years in EVE have allowed me to understand that there is something truly amazing when the symbiotic relationship between PVP and PVE is given an environment in which to flourish together.
All or nothing? Hello no. Not in my experience.
That is your preference.
Eve is a boring game to me.
That speaks more to the player than the game.
Just like the wow haters here? Speak more to the player than the game?
Of course you can't ... their numbers are so insignificant to today's number ... there is no comparison.
Again the average western MMORPG still peak in active users 250k to 500k range. There are a handful of games like WOW, SWTOR, and maybe Eve that have/had over 500k.
Back when I played The Matrix Online, the game involved a lot of mystery and secret meetings. It was kinda cool. BUT! Our secret meetings were often interrupted by rival factions. It was PvE at the time, so the best we could do was challenge them to a duel, use harsh language, or just go to a different location. It really broke the immersion, and I thought, "Wouldn't it be nice (and realistic) if we could shoot these infiltrators?"
The problem, of course, is that if a game is PvP it is ONLY PvP. It's essentially just a bloodbath shooting range with no rhyme or reason. That works fine for games like COD, or MOBAs, but not an RPG.
So the question is this; is it possible to walk the line? Can you create a realistic, immersive world that focuses on exploration, crafting, socializing and a fair amount of PvE, AND allow PvP without it degrading into a warzone? Or is PvP all or nothing?
Not only can you do it, its basically essential for this to be done for PvP to succeed.
In fact, the best PvP I've experienced (by far) was EQ PvP servers. That was because we always had something to do, and something worthwhile to fight over. Even the best "PvP mmos" lacked this.
Said it 100 times, if an MMO isn't fun without PvP, it doesn't suddenly become fun with it.
I have always liked the concept of PvP in an online world, but I have never seen an implementation that I could tolerate.
I remember back in the EQ in High Hold Pass near the Kithicor forest zone line (the Orc highway) thinking 'here we are with fireballs and other aoe effects going off and we don't have to worry about anything'. Honestly it was a little disappointing although it would have been a bit messy
One of the problems is the perception of PvP. All of us 'care bears' see a ganker behind every shrub and we hear about (or read about) the lack of 'honor' of 'all' PvP players.
Could you implement meaningful PvP? Perhaps, but in my opinion it would be a lot of work as your developers would probably end up playing whack a mole as players developed strategies and work arounds for any in game consequences.
I'll tell you what I don't want to see and then you can tell me that your game isn't for me
I don't want to be attacked by a player that is god-like in power compared to me. I don't want to be repeatedly killed and tea-bagged by this character. I don't want someone to follow me around and only attack me when I am low on health from a PvE fight (or another PvP fight for that matter). I don't want to respawn into a combat (rez camping/altar camping or whatever you want to call it). If PvP activity is a flag/toggle I don't want to be forced into PvP mode by aoe or other unintended actions (healing a PvP flagged player for instance - just don't let me affect him without at least a confirmation box).
Anyway, as you can probably tell I am PvP averse in MMORPGs so feel free to ignore my post
I have always liked the concept of PvP in an online world, but I have never seen an implementation that I could tolerate.
I remember back in the EQ in High Hold Pass near the Kithicor forest zone line (the Orc highway) thinking 'here we are with fireballs and other aoe effects going off and we don't have to worry about anything'. Honestly it was a little disappointing although it would have been a bit messy
One of the problems is the perception of PvP. All of us 'care bears' see a ganker behind every shrub and we hear about (or read about) the lack of 'honor' of 'all' PvP players.
Could you implement meaningful PvP? Perhaps, but in my opinion it would be a lot of work as your developers would probably end up playing whack a mole as players developed strategies and work arounds for any in game consequences.
I'll tell you what I don't want to see and then you can tell me that your game isn't for me
I don't want to be attacked by a player that is god-like in power compared to me. I don't want to be repeatedly killed and tea-bagged by this character. I don't want someone to follow me around and only attack me when I am low on health from a PvE fight (or another PvP fight for that matter). I don't want to respawn into a combat (rez camping/altar camping or whatever you want to call it). If PvP activity is a flag/toggle I don't want to be forced into PvP mode by aoe or other unintended actions (healing a PvP flagged player for instance - just don't let me affect him without at least a confirmation box).
Anyway, as you can probably tell I am PvP averse in MMORPGs so feel free to ignore my post
Actually, I think you would like my game.
First, no one will have god-like power over you. There are some perks to having a high Pistol skill, but if you shoot someone, there's a good chance you'll kill them, regardless of who's been playing longer. So, as Captain Mal once said, "Someone tries to kill you, you kill em' right back."
If you are killed, you'll lay there for a bit (depending on your fame) and then be whisked away to the nearest hospital or clinic (or Street Surgeon if you have the contacts). You'll have a pesky hospital bill, and there's a good chance you won't be running back out into the fray. After getting gunned down, it may be best to just go home and get some rest.
Also! If someone kills you (unprovoked), depending on where you are, there's a good chance that they'll be getting picked up by the men in blue (blue and white armor actually) and hauled off to the clink. Nothing says "don't be a dick" like a hefty fine and a night in the slammer. NOTE: Don't piss off politicians. It's kinda tricky to get warrants for them.
No PvP flags, but if you avoid downtown, you should be ok. There are a lot more police in midtown and uptown. (But again, the CEOs and politicians will mostly live Uptown, so still watch yourself.)
Well I noticed one thing with a game I played more off than on for the past several years. That is the player base can make the "dev" or in this case franchise holder make some what I consider dramatic changes. THe game I'm refering to is AION. When I first started playing it shortly after they released it for NA, once you left the 2 starting zones it was open world PvP. After awhile I left because I suck at PvP. Later when I decided to give it another go they made and interesting change. They introduced what they called a Fast Track server. This server increased your xp, but the interesting thing I found was up until you got to the endgame there was basically NO PvP. They shut it down til the last 10 or 5 levels and it's basically still that way now. So I would say the player base a game attracts can cause it to change quite a bit over time. Also the adage "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies. I would guess that many of their player base found the way PvP worked in the game to be not so good from their view point and thus were probably loosing players pretty which prompted them to use the current system. Me, I liked WoW's approach on their PvE severs. Designated PvP zones. If I want to PvP i would go there and of course more likely get my butt servered me but atleast I felt it didn't impact my experience of the game. For me Open World PvP means very posssible gank fest and probably not much fun. BTW you can consider this a rant if you like. I personally have no problem with games that are Open World PvP or even full loot. I just don't play them.
Of course you can't ... their numbers are so insignificant to today's number ... there is no comparison.
Again the average western MMORPG still peak in active users 250k to 500k range. There are a handful of games like WOW, SWTOR, and maybe Eve that have/had over 500k.
What are you talking about? GW2 is much bigger than 500k.
No PvP flags, but if you avoid downtown, you should be ok. There are a lot more police in midtown and uptown. (But again, the CEOs and politicians will mostly live Uptown, so still watch yourself.)
wait ... if i don't like pvp, how would i like this game? There is no option to turn it off, and I have to avoid some part of the game?
I think the trouble with PvP, especially open world PvP, is that the nature of MMOs is not conducive to it.
Lets start with, as a given, that no one likes being repeatedly ganked by a god mode toon, be they god mode because they have the best gear or the most power.
Yet MMOs are set up to "reward" the player who spends the most time in game. In other words, to keep the players in the game the developers set up a literal leveling treadmill that gives the players more items and more powers the longer they stay in game. In other words the devs design the game so that the gamers have to spend "X" hours in game to achieve goal "Y". More time equals more goals achieved.
What happens then is you set up the paradigm that if Joe spends one hour in game a day and John spends two hours in game a day, John will get the rewards twice as fast as Joe. Some people have more time to spend than others and there you get the "power gap." Soon the Johns will be beating up on the Joes pretty regularly mainly due to an imbalance in abilities, skills or gear.
Four solutions present themselves.
1. CASH SHOPS - The Devs introduce items into the game that allow the Joes of the world to keep up with Johns by spending a little real life money to get either A. the items the Johns got by spending their time or b. items that multiply Joe's efforts in game like 2X experience potions, etc. Cash shops offend the hell out of the Joes because there is the accusation that the Joes didn't "earn it" like the Johns did. By "earn it" they mean Joe didn't spend the game time. Instead Joe whipped out his credit card and pwned rather than grinding through the content at a furious pace.
2. LEVEL MATCHING - Engineer the game so that when people go into PvP areas they are all equal. Seems like a logical solution, but it is fundamentally flawed in that it effectively removes the need to level a toon. My level 1 guy is going to have the same skills, abilities and items that the level 50s have. Yes, I can already hear people grinding their teeth. So they modify it so that if you're higher level you have access to the better items and skills the higher levels possess and, well, we're back to power imbalance.
3. ZERG - The Joes join a big group of people and gang up on the Johns until the Johns are dead. That's when you're going to get arguments about "playing the game the right way" and "what actually is a zerg" (in the end a Zerg = X + Y where X is the player that got ganked and Y is the number of players X could have soloed plus 1 more player). The Johns then respond by banning together in groups big enough to kill the groups of Joes and on and on it goes.
4. INSTANCING - Only let the Joes fight the Joes and the Johns fight the Johns. Everyone loses and open world PvP is gone. No one really wants this anyway. What they want is to pwn and laugh about it with their buddies.
The truth is there can't be "meaningful" PvP in a game. Instead a potential PvPer should face risk and consequences for PvP in game just like there are in the real world. I'm not talking about full loot. That's sissy stuff. That's wanting the gankee to take the risk while the gankor gets the reward. Instead the PvPer should be forced to face the possibility that his behavior might have negative consequences.
First off when you PvP in the real world, you don't necessarily know everything about the person you're picking a fight with. They could be a pacifist who will curl up into the fetal position or they could be an MMA fighter who will tear your limbs off or they could be an undercover cop, a judge and on and on. In other words when you PvP there should be a risk that you've bitten off way more than you can chew be it someone who kicks your ass in return or after you kick their ass proceed to take all your stuff via lawsuits etc. Or the scrawny little girl you menace in game could whip out a gun and shoot you dead. After all, God made man, but Sam Colt made them all equal.
Second those that behave like lawless barbarians find themselves black balled from civilized society. If you run around and pick fights with everyone and they steal their stuff after you beat them up, if you don't land in jail for a lengthy amount of time you find yourself, shall we say, "Unwelcome" in various communities.
If the PvPer is ready, willing and able to run this risks then they can have at it. Then PvP becomes what it should be; random, stupid, futile and mainly fueled by illicit substances. If you want to Robin Hood it and hang out in the woods robbing caravans that's your business. However don't get pissy when the good citizens of Nottingham get sick of your behavior, ban together, pick off the Merry Men one by one, burn down Sherwood forest and sodomize your smoking corpse.
In other words, if you want to PvP, you'd better be like The Joker; random, pointless and chaotic. By the by that would actually allow for there to be real heroes in the game since there would be real villains.
Some men just want to see the world burn.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Back when I played The Matrix Online, the game involved a lot of mystery and secret meetings. It was kinda cool. BUT! Our secret meetings were often interrupted by rival factions. It was PvE at the time, so the best we could do was challenge them to a duel, use harsh language, or just go to a different location. It really broke the immersion, and I thought, "Wouldn't it be nice (and realistic) if we could shoot these infiltrators?"
The problem, of course, is that if a game is PvP it is ONLY PvP. It's essentially just a bloodbath shooting range with no rhyme or reason. That works fine for games like COD, or MOBAs, but not an RPG.
So the question is this; is it possible to walk the line? Can you create a realistic, immersive world that focuses on exploration, crafting, socializing and a fair amount of PvE, AND allow PvP without it degrading into a warzone? Or is PvP all or nothing?
Sure it is. I did love Lineage idea that you could get into wars with other guilds on PvE servers for example. You could also have a game with many factions that sometimes go to war or ally against other opponents, with the right serversetting you could play on a server with few wars or one where it is common.
The thing is that free for all PvP turns the game into a full bloodbath. Constantly warring factions works in some games but if your main focus with mechanics and content is PvE that tend to become annoying as well. But sometimes at war with other sides have potential, especially if the winning side actually get awarded with stuff.
The real problem is to balance the sides, I think we need far more than 3 for it to work with some kind of system to put up interesting wars that could go either way. 7 factions might be the right number, with some limited wars and a few ones with all sides. You also needs to have the frequency right so it isn't "*sigh*, another war today again"...
Another thing is that any game with PvP in it must have lower powergap than a PvE only game. One with limited wars can have far larger than one with constant PvP but you still either need far less powergap than Wow or a system similar to GW2 that levels people down to the zone. Going from hopeless peasant to demigod might work well in a PvE only game but it makes PvP far too predictable at most times.
Many games today instead instance the PvP but I think that is the wrong thing to do, I rather have a real war 1 day a week instead.
There must be many other solutions to your problem but I am sure it is do-able (since Lineage did it in 2000 if nothing else).
The truth is there can't be "meaningful" PvP in a game. Instead a potential PvPer should face risk and consequences for PvP in game just like there are in the real world. I'm not talking about full loot. That's sissy stuff. That's wanting the gankee to take the risk while the gankor gets the reward. Instead the PvPer should be forced to face the possibility that his behavior might have negative consequences. ...
While what you said was all very true, there are a few artificial restrictions that can be placed on PvP to keep it more meaningful. In any game with leveling for instance, you can restrict PvP to within a level bracket. It works.
The other option is to make progression much more gradual and minute, effectively making the skill component more important than the gear. The problem with games that have tried this, is that they've been boring and offered very little meaningful gameplay outside of pvp. The player that plays an mmo for things beyond just PvP usually find this style of game lacks reward and the incentive to continue playing.
Of course you can't ... their numbers are so insignificant to today's number ... there is no comparison.
Again the average western MMORPG still peak in active users 250k to 500k range. There are a handful of games like WOW, SWTOR, and maybe Eve that have/had over 500k.
What are you talking about? GW2 is much bigger than 500k.
Again it's a handful if MMORPG. It's certainly not the norm. Which goes to that point UO/EQ numbers are still relevant especially considering the smaller player base.
Comments
Developers should have allowed people to play as some monsters instead of leaving them all to artificial intelligence. In Matrix they could have made matrix agents or the squiddy sentinels as playable characters. Monster characters should be real player characters with persistency, development of their own skills and evolving gameplay style, their own quests, goals, gear and skills. It enables both PvP and PvE in one. One big reason why PvE has been dull and boring in computer games is that artificial intellignece is still in its infancy. The solution I describe removes artificial intelligence out of equation.
Alien vs Predator games are a good example how it can be done.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Everyone should try to survive in their own ways. Player with a bird character should be learning how to fly or climb branches or pick worms out of the ground and steal people's crops on farms, or learn how to make nests in the trees. A bear should be roaming the woods foraging for food or hunting prey, searching for caves where to rest. People with human characters should learn how to make ranged weapons and hunt birds for feathers to make arrows for bows, or how to protect themselves from bears and make leather clothes or furs out of them.
It's not difficult to create original and unique newbie gameplay, midbie gameplay and end game for all these different creatures that somehow intersects or conflicts with gameplay of the other creatures.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Accountability usually helps to curb exploitation and stupid behaviour.
Higher level bear would have a better fur but also more to loose if he dies. He might loose exp/skill progression and respawn with a scrawny hide with reduced resistance to physical damage or less fat storages in his bear body to keep him safe from the cold weather. Losses for dying could be greater than gains for his human friend. He could still sacrifice himself to help out a friend if he really wanted to, but perhaps at a high cost.
If the game detects that someone dies repeatedly to the same people, it might respawn him on the opposite side of the game world.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
In short, PvP and PvE absolutely *can* co-exist - if the game and its content is designed with that balance and interaction in mind from the very beginning. Neither system can be tacked on later, or designed to be "separate".
Another thing that early/pre-GoD L2 had was an amazing sense of team spirit and camaraderie within clans. People took pride in the clan they belonged to, and they - almost without exception - would drop what they were doing to come to the aid of a fellow clan member if they were in trouble. Not that it *hasn't* happened in any other MMO, but I've never seen any other MMO with PvP where that kind of team spirit was present.
In L2, if you were out xp'ing and someone came along and started attacking you, you could mention it in clan chat, and the first thing someone would say is "Who is it, and where are you?". Your clan mates would drop what they were doing and head out to assist you. Many times, a few would hang around... just to make sure you could continue doing what you were, to prevent anyone else from interrupting you.
Even when I was taking a break from the PvP/politics and running with a PvE group... that sense of solidarity was there. If one of our own was being screwed with, we dropped what we were doing and ran to their defense - win or lose.
Sometimes those encounters could grow into large clan-v-clan PvP events, which could last a long time before fizzling out.
And at the end, when the encounter was concluded, whatever the outcome, the most common remark made was "GF". Yes, there was the occasional butthurt players who kept talking smack even after they'd lost, trying to salvage some of their ego/pride after the ass-kicking they'd just received.
Regardless, the point had been made loud and clear: "Don't screw with our clan members, or you deal with all of us".
Conversely...
In other MMOs with PvP that I've played - Darkfall and TERA Online come to mind as just two examples - that sense of camaraderie just does not exist. The sense of team spirit is completely missing. Mention in clan/guild chat that you're being attacked/harassed by other players, and instead of asking who it is and where you are so they can come assist, the response (at least in all my experiences) was to basically mock you, say "it's a PvP MMO. Go play WoW if you can't handle it", or any other such response. No team pride. No solidarity. Nothing. They saw it as an opportunity to mock and belittle another player, because in their minds, you're supposed to shit-talk, mock and belittle others when they're in trouble - even when they're your own clan/guild-mates.
To put it simply... for an open world, open-PvP MMO to work, there has to be the right attitude among its players. There has to be a sense of teamwork, cooperation and solidarity. These days, where the favored mantra is "me me me", you just don't see that kind of attitude anymore.
I keep waiting for a community to arise in a PvP MMO that better resembles that of old-school Lineage 2. I've all but given up hope for that to ever happen again, though. I think too many MMO players these days lack the mentality for it. To much about "me me me", and they don't understand or appreciate the idea of teamwork or team spirit.
The player base pull from FPS is a total success! Now What?!?
The one and only problem with PvP games is a single word called exploitation. By nature, PvP means kill or be killed and that is the watered-down version. Players with PvP limitations are not happy.
Let's take a game called CounterStrike or even something decades more popular, CoD -These multiplayer games are the minor leagues compared to open world, massively multiplayer games. But, like most farms, they produce top quality PvPers.
In my example above, the point is not the game but rather the style which is FPS (not Free Pizza Stand). A FPS player is largely more aggressive from the logon than an MMO PvPer. In MMOGs, PvPers have that period of growth to overcome, whether it's training or gearing, in an FPS those things are almost instant in comparison.
PvP is great fun! PvP makes the heart heavy or happy but it is not the game. PvP can never be 'The Game' and this is why exploitation is necessary to enhance the 'fun' -killing other players in the game.
For years, before many gamers today were even born, PvP has always been the crown of MMO's. Forced PvP, developers hiding resources or xp in PvP zones' is a built-in exploitation that gamers today learn very quickly.
The game that is going beta (see MMORPG.COM) allows a player to get to Level/Rank 5 before you are more or less forced into PvP. Sitting behind every portal/gate/instance is a ganker! I can hear someone thinking, 'why go at it alone? Get into a guild or party and kick the snot outa somebody' -nods ok noob McDoogle, I will make sure all my friends and mates are up at 2am so I can chop three logs of wood for my new weapon.
Full World PvP? LOFL!!!
It doesn't work. WoW has made PvP fun but still a tree-hugging, care bear event because after killing 65,010 boars you will get the favor, the reknown, then gear (all carebear!) -You can max level unmitigated by death, death drops, etc..., before you even 'Accept' a PvP invitation or Enter a PvP Zone or Enter a PvP match. Don't get me wrong, it is fun!!!
Other full world games boiled down from 300-500k players to about 1500 dedicated people whom you see all the time. You run because they KOS (Kill on Sight) or make a stand because you now wield the most powerful weapon for your class <shrug> dunno what you plan to do!
I personally spent 3 weeks gearing up in order to do one thing in a PvP game, kill the rogue class with a robe on. Fun? Hell-to-the-Yes! Afterward, I spent 4 hours a day killing rogues (in a formed line -no joke).
In FPS, the one and only true form of PvP, skill, luck and zero latency are my friends.
All the other forms of PvP are cool too but we need to draw a reality line somewhere.
Ataaka -because PvP is built into my name.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course you can't ... their numbers are so insignificant to today's number ... there is no comparison.
In fact, the best PvP I've experienced (by far) was EQ PvP servers. That was because we always had something to do, and something worthwhile to fight over. Even the best "PvP mmos" lacked this.
Said it 100 times, if an MMO isn't fun without PvP, it doesn't suddenly become fun with it.
I remember back in the EQ in High Hold Pass near the Kithicor forest zone line (the Orc highway) thinking 'here we are with fireballs and other aoe effects going off and we don't have to worry about anything'. Honestly it was a little disappointing although it would have been a bit messy
One of the problems is the perception of PvP. All of us 'care bears' see a ganker behind every shrub and we hear about (or read about) the lack of 'honor' of 'all' PvP players.
Could you implement meaningful PvP? Perhaps, but in my opinion it would be a lot of work as your developers would probably end up playing whack a mole as players developed strategies and work arounds for any in game consequences.
I'll tell you what I don't want to see and then you can tell me that your game isn't for me
I don't want to be attacked by a player that is god-like in power compared to me.
I don't want to be repeatedly killed and tea-bagged by this character.
I don't want someone to follow me around and only attack me when I am low on health from a PvE fight (or another PvP fight for that matter).
I don't want to respawn into a combat (rez camping/altar camping or whatever you want to call it).
If PvP activity is a flag/toggle I don't want to be forced into PvP mode by aoe or other unintended actions (healing a PvP flagged player for instance - just don't let me affect him without at least a confirmation box).
Anyway, as you can probably tell I am PvP averse in MMORPGs so feel free to ignore my post
First, no one will have god-like power over you. There are some perks to having a high Pistol skill, but if you shoot someone, there's a good chance you'll kill them, regardless of who's been playing longer. So, as Captain Mal once said, "Someone tries to kill you, you kill em' right back."
If you are killed, you'll lay there for a bit (depending on your fame) and then be whisked away to the nearest hospital or clinic (or Street Surgeon if you have the contacts). You'll have a pesky hospital bill, and there's a good chance you won't be running back out into the fray. After getting gunned down, it may be best to just go home and get some rest.
Also! If someone kills you (unprovoked), depending on where you are, there's a good chance that they'll be getting picked up by the men in blue (blue and white armor actually) and hauled off to the clink. Nothing says "don't be a dick" like a hefty fine and a night in the slammer. NOTE: Don't piss off politicians. It's kinda tricky to get warrants for them.
No PvP flags, but if you avoid downtown, you should be ok. There are a lot more police in midtown and uptown. (But again, the CEOs and politicians will mostly live Uptown, so still watch yourself.)
wait ... if i don't like pvp, how would i like this game? There is no option to turn it off, and I have to avoid some part of the game?
It is worse than a pay wall.
Lets start with, as a given, that no one likes being repeatedly ganked by a god mode toon, be they god mode because they have the best gear or the most power.
Yet MMOs are set up to "reward" the player who spends the most time in game. In other words, to keep the players in the game the developers set up a literal leveling treadmill that gives the players more items and more powers the longer they stay in game. In other words the devs design the game so that the gamers have to spend "X" hours in game to achieve goal "Y". More time equals more goals achieved.
What happens then is you set up the paradigm that if Joe spends one hour in game a day and John spends two hours in game a day, John will get the rewards twice as fast as Joe. Some people have more time to spend than others and there you get the "power gap." Soon the Johns will be beating up on the Joes pretty regularly mainly due to an imbalance in abilities, skills or gear.
Four solutions present themselves.
1. CASH SHOPS - The Devs introduce items into the game that allow the Joes of the world to keep up with Johns by spending a little real life money to get either A. the items the Johns got by spending their time or b. items that multiply Joe's efforts in game like 2X experience potions, etc. Cash shops offend the hell out of the Joes because there is the accusation that the Joes didn't "earn it" like the Johns did. By "earn it" they mean Joe didn't spend the game time. Instead Joe whipped out his credit card and pwned rather than grinding through the content at a furious pace.
2. LEVEL MATCHING - Engineer the game so that when people go into PvP areas they are all equal. Seems like a logical solution, but it is fundamentally flawed in that it effectively removes the need to level a toon. My level 1 guy is going to have the same skills, abilities and items that the level 50s have. Yes, I can already hear people grinding their teeth. So they modify it so that if you're higher level you have access to the better items and skills the higher levels possess and, well, we're back to power imbalance.
3. ZERG - The Joes join a big group of people and gang up on the Johns until the Johns are dead. That's when you're going to get arguments about "playing the game the right way" and "what actually is a zerg" (in the end a Zerg = X + Y where X is the player that got ganked and Y is the number of players X could have soloed plus 1 more player). The Johns then respond by banning together in groups big enough to kill the groups of Joes and on and on it goes.
4. INSTANCING - Only let the Joes fight the Joes and the Johns fight the Johns. Everyone loses and open world PvP is gone. No one really wants this anyway. What they want is to pwn and laugh about it with their buddies.
The truth is there can't be "meaningful" PvP in a game. Instead a potential PvPer should face risk and consequences for PvP in game just like there are in the real world. I'm not talking about full loot. That's sissy stuff. That's wanting the gankee to take the risk while the gankor gets the reward. Instead the PvPer should be forced to face the possibility that his behavior might have negative consequences.
First off when you PvP in the real world, you don't necessarily know everything about the person you're picking a fight with. They could be a pacifist who will curl up into the fetal position or they could be an MMA fighter who will tear your limbs off or they could be an undercover cop, a judge and on and on. In other words when you PvP there should be a risk that you've bitten off way more than you can chew be it someone who kicks your ass in return or after you kick their ass proceed to take all your stuff via lawsuits etc. Or the scrawny little girl you menace in game could whip out a gun and shoot you dead. After all, God made man, but Sam Colt made them all equal.
Second those that behave like lawless barbarians find themselves black balled from civilized society. If you run around and pick fights with everyone and they steal their stuff after you beat them up, if you don't land in jail for a lengthy amount of time you find yourself, shall we say, "Unwelcome" in various communities.
If the PvPer is ready, willing and able to run this risks then they can have at it. Then PvP becomes what it should be; random, stupid, futile and mainly fueled by illicit substances. If you want to Robin Hood it and hang out in the woods robbing caravans that's your business. However don't get pissy when the good citizens of Nottingham get sick of your behavior, ban together, pick off the Merry Men one by one, burn down Sherwood forest and sodomize your smoking corpse.
In other words, if you want to PvP, you'd better be like The Joker; random, pointless and chaotic. By the by that would actually allow for there to be real heroes in the game since there would be real villains.
Some men just want to see the world burn.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
The thing is that free for all PvP turns the game into a full bloodbath. Constantly warring factions works in some games but if your main focus with mechanics and content is PvE that tend to become annoying as well. But sometimes at war with other sides have potential, especially if the winning side actually get awarded with stuff.
The real problem is to balance the sides, I think we need far more than 3 for it to work with some kind of system to put up interesting wars that could go either way. 7 factions might be the right number, with some limited wars and a few ones with all sides. You also needs to have the frequency right so it isn't "*sigh*, another war today again"...
Another thing is that any game with PvP in it must have lower powergap than a PvE only game. One with limited wars can have far larger than one with constant PvP but you still either need far less powergap than Wow or a system similar to GW2 that levels people down to the zone. Going from hopeless peasant to demigod might work well in a PvE only game but it makes PvP far too predictable at most times.
Many games today instead instance the PvP but I think that is the wrong thing to do, I rather have a real war 1 day a week instead.
There must be many other solutions to your problem but I am sure it is do-able (since Lineage did it in 2000 if nothing else).
The other option is to make progression much more gradual and minute, effectively making the skill component more important than the gear. The problem with games that have tried this, is that they've been boring and offered very little meaningful gameplay outside of pvp. The player that plays an mmo for things beyond just PvP usually find this style of game lacks reward and the incentive to continue playing.