Have you met Blizzard? Their whole concept is to eschew experimentation, leave that to others, and just copy what everyone liked in MMOs A, B and C. Those MMOs then fail, because they can't match the maturity of Blizz's 10+ year old code, and the new ideas these new games implemented either get assimilated into WoW, or forgotten until MOO design idea come full circle again in a decade or so.
And just to brighten everyone's day, here is the MMO joke of the week, brought to you by our fellow forumite Axehilt: "And the big difference is WOW didn't stumble over basics like excessive grindy repetition."
Give the man a hand! It doesn't get much better than this!
We were literally just discussing Lineage 2...or...wait...sometimes I forget that sometimes people are completely new to the MMORPG genre and don't know how ridiculously grindy it used to be.
In L2 and many other early MMORPGs, you leveled up by finding an area with similar level mobs and fighting those mobs for literally hours.
In WOW, an hour of leveling gameplay will involve running ~7 different quests, which will ask the player to perform 3-5 different types of activities. Although to be fair if we're talking about WOW during its boom years, it was more like 7 quests that asked you to do 1-3 different types of activities.
So you tell me what's more repetitive:
Kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, SWITCH AREAS, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B...
OR go to town, get 3 quests, kill mob type A to finish quest A, kill mob type B so that you can collect all the stolen barrels to finish quest B, kill mob types C and D to fight your way to kill boss E who has a unique ability, return to town, turn in quests for rewards, get 3 new quests, kill mob type F to finish quest D, etc...
The gameplay variety in the latter is very obviously better than earlier MMORPGs.
In fact the mob variety in the WOW example is still better than the vast majority of modern MMORPGs. WAR and SW:TOR were two examples of games where every mob played exactly the same (no variation.)
But yeah, if you just want to try to make a joke based on a false perception of the way the game played relative to its competition you're free to be willfully ignorant and nobody can stop you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You seem to think that good game design and profit are mutually exclusive.
There are lots of evidence to show that clearly it is not (given that "good" is subjective). Take Deus Ex Human Evolution as an example. It has very good reviews, and like by many (hence "good" for the critics and player), and it sold well.
Thanks, Narius.
Without your multiple daily reminders of what subjective means we'd all be at a serious loss. It's a tough one to wrap one's brain around but thank fuck you're here to save us all.
Can't wait for tomorrow's first episode of "The subjective Files"; hopefully we squeeze in at least four more by din din time...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Without your multiple daily reminders of what subjective means we'd all be at a serious loss. It's a tough one to wrap one's brain around but thank fuck you're here to save us all.
Of course ... otherwise many here would mistakenly believe that UO, EQ and Eve are universally "good" games.
Without your multiple daily reminders of what subjective means we'd all be at a serious loss. It's a tough one to wrap one's brain around but thank fuck you're here to save us all.
Of course ... otherwise many here would mistakenly believe that UO, EQ and Eve are universally "good" games.
Yeah, what a shocker to think that some of the legendary classics (all of which are still running under the P2P model after all of these years) are clearly considered good games.
In damn near 2016, there is no mistaking reality. So sorry.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Capitalism is a fact that we have to accept. It runs everything. I am simply stating that ignoring it seems pretty futile. Dennying it will not make it go away. Until we find something better than it, I pretty sure we are stuck with it. It would be more prudent to find away to coexists with it (which means compromising).
In short: 'its here to stay, suck it up and deal with it'.
Just that we do not have capitalism at all. What we have is Corporate State-Capitalism, a nanny state run by the principal architects of policy that designs policy in such a way as to enrich and privilege the designers. In Capitalism the Banks would have never been bailed out, they failed and bailing them out with taxes is pure socialism. A capitalist system would have let them fail.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
An hour of leveling more often involves queuing for the same instance over and over.
No, leveling doesn't "more often" involve that. Only a minority of players play that way, and it's still more varied than oldschool grinding (by far.)
Questing is by far the most common way players level in WOW.
Beyond that the experience of dungeon grinding in WOW involves greater mob variety (in a grinder you fought the same 1-3 mob types in an area for hours), greater environment variety (in the grinder you were in the same place for hours; with WOW queues you see 2-3 different dungeons regularly), and bosses (in the grinder you're just fighting regular mobs.)
Not to mention the fact that the dungeon queue didn't even exist during the main rise of WOW that we're discussing, so dungeon leveling was even less common than it is now.
Pick an argument with validity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Without your multiple daily reminders of what subjective means we'd all be at a serious loss. It's a tough one to wrap one's brain around but thank fuck you're here to save us all.
Of course ... otherwise many here would mistakenly believe that UO, EQ and Eve are universally "good" games.
Yeah, what a shocker to think that some of the legendary classics (all of which are still running under the P2P model after all of these years) are clearly considered good games.
uh? What p2p model ... i can go play EQ (not that i would) for free right this min.
Are you disputing that "good" is subjective? If you are, then WOW, clearly, with its much bigger success, a much better game than those "classics".
If you are not disputing that "good" is subjective, then clearly not everyone in the world think that those classics are good games. Otherwise, people would not be leaving those games when WOW came out.
An hour of leveling more often involves queuing for the same instance over and over.
No, leveling doesn't "more often" involve that. Only a minority of players play that way, and it's still more varied than oldschool grinding (by far.)
Pick an argument with validity.
It's a perfectly valid comment, that you don't like that it's the reality of the current game is not my problem.
You want to argue to the contrary then you have to find a server where the majority of players aren't standing in the major cities waiting for a cross-server queue.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It's a perfectly valid comment, that you don't like that it's the reality of the current game is not my problem.
You want to argue to the contrary then you have to find a server where the majority of players aren't standing in the major cities waiting for a cross-server queue.
As of ~8 months ago, dungeon-grinding was underpowered. It was a distinctly slower way to level up.
As of [always], solo gameplay has been more popular than grouping.
So even when grouping was balanced -- even when grouping was superior to quest leveling -- players quested more than they grouped.
Beyond that, players don't sit in major cities when they queue, they sit in their garrisons.
So no, your argument is invalid because it's completely detached from how MMORPGs are actually being played.
Now you'd have a valid argument if you turned those traits around and used them as the criticism:
Clearly it'd be better if you didn't queue in garrisons (isolated quasi-social spaces) and instead queued in cities (fully social spaces).
Clearly it'd be better if the game shifted back to grouping being a competitive way of leveling up, instead of being distinctly slower.
But even when both of those things were true, more players quested than grouped to level up. The majority of players sitting in town were simply idle, or were grouping for endgame content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Every. damn. time. someone compares games, or MMO's for that matter, they bring which one made more money into the mix.
'Training' for that (more income for seller means better for consumer) mind set starts at a very early age, its almost as if its done on purpose to get people to equate their personal fun and worth on how much someone else makes off of them.
Regardless. bottom line is McDonalds Big Mac is not better than a steak dinner even though McDonalds makes tons of money
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Convenience of laziness versus reward. That they have migrated to garrisons from cities changes very little.
All you're doing at present is arguing your anecdotal opinion.
It's objectively true that players solo more than grouping in MMORPGs. Even here (MMORPG.com) in a hardcore demographic of MMORPGs that includes some who believe forced-grouping should be a thing, polls consistently show the bias towards soloing. (Poll; also there was another one taken of EVE players which had similar results...maybe @Loktofeit ran that one?)
In WOW you level objectively faster with quests compared with dungeon groups. This is a simple fact of the rate of XP achievable in the average group you get compared with what you can achieve while plowing through quests. If you're not a tank character, groups are much slower because you're going to roll the dice on the quality of your dungeon group's tank each time, and often get a slow tank. If you are an expert tank character pushing your groups as hard as your mitigation and the healer's mana can handle, you still will not achieve a higher rate of XP/hour compared with questing. (No matter if you skip dungeon mobs to try to optimize completion XP, or if you pull mobs nonstop to try to optimize kill XP.)
So no, this isn't anecdotal opinion. It's objective fact. It's not possible to level faster in dungeons than by quests, and even when it was possible it's never been how the majority choose to level.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Whether you level faster through solo play is inconsequential. Grouping for queued dungeons tends to hardly matter on the end of group play any ways as for the most part it's a zerg to finish not meaningful tactics.
What you're arguing for is itself anecdotal, as all your claim is, is simply that people are playing more quests to level than they are tread-milling queues. It is at it's core an argument of opinion until a metric for that point itself is established. Everything else you are saying is pointless fluff dancing around the fact that your central argument is nothing more than an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Whether you level faster through solo play is inconsequential. Grouping for queued dungeons tends to hardly matter on the end of group play any ways as for the most part it's a zerg to finish not meaningful tactics.
What you're arguing for is itself anecdotal, as all your claim is, is simply that people are playing more quests to level than they are tread-milling queues. It is at it's core an argument of opinion until a metric for that point itself is established. Everything else you are saying is pointless fluff dancing around the fact that your central argument is nothing more than an opinion.
No, it's simple:
You said: "An hour of leveling more often involves queuing for the same instance over and over."
I've explained why that's objectively false. We know most players solo when given the choice (especially during the leveling process.) And this is true even when grouping is balanced. And last time I did objective analysis on XP rates (a little more than a year ago), solo-questing produced far superior rate of XP.
Your statement was objectively wrong. Just own up to it and move on.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What you just said is exactly again your anecdote versus an opposing one. I'e stated in simple terms already the fact that whether or not someone "prefers" soloing is only a snippet of the logic here any ways, and you using out of game polling as your only source for anything is informative on it's own.
Your statement now is you trying to make a subjective claim into an objective one, making you very distinctly wrong as opposed to just having a vehement opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
What you just said is exactly again your anecdote versus an opposing one. I'e stated in simple terms already the fact that whether or not someone "prefers" soloing is only a snippet of the logic here any ways, and you using out of game polling as your only source for anything is informative on it's own.
Your statement now is you trying to make a subjective claim into an objective one, making you very distinctly wrong as opposed to just having a vehement opinion.
Evidence was provided from a location most likely to vote "grouping", which supports a commonly understood trait of MMORPG gaming that has been discussed since shortly after WOW's release (as the first game to strongly support soloing, which had previously only had weak support.)
If you wish to look at your own lack of evidence, and my evidence, and deliberately ignore the evidence, then you're free to of course. You'll be arguing from a position you know to be baseless against a position with good proof (which through research you could find even more proof) but that's up to you if you find ignorance acceptable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Second verse same as the first, if you wish to provide "evidence" that actually equates to in-game play such as the cited point of the volume of players that wait in particular places for queues to pop, then feel free to do so. What you provided so far is not evidence as much as you want to claim it is. It's a vague reference to a group of people that are talking about a game, not playing it.
You are only continuing to press an opinion.
So please do try to pause a moment on your irrationality long enough to consider the irony of your statements.
EDIT: As for any sort of "evidence" for my argument as you seem to demand it, In blizzards notes from a couple patches ago they stated the average wait time for dungeon queue as "a few minutes". Seeing as that's as close to an official statistic on the matter, I'm running with that.
To be maintaining the volume of people popping a queue every few minutes you have to have players setting them up, at a bare minimum without concurrent queuing, 2.4k people cycling. The reality is that the queue stacks multiple groups at once and since most people love DPS, the general flow it that there are a lot of queued groups that are awaiting a few heal/tank slots to be filled, meaning that those things are firing off regularly out of a rather consistent cycle of players hopping into loaded and waiting groups.
With the daily average of players swinging into 81,275 (courtesy of warcraftrealms for the stat tracking), even if there were only ten dungeons being run at any given time, this would mean that a bit over a quarter of the whole active user-base were in a dungeon, not including those that are queuing. The other three quarters are few to be questing, but you're smart enough to know the reality that they will be busy futzing about in a bunch of ways while a few of them are trying for optimal efficiency.
Post edited by Deivos on
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Second verse same as the first, if you wish to provide "evidence" that actually equates to in-game play such as the cited point of the volume of players that wait in particular places for queues to pop, then feel free to do so. What you provided so far is not evidence as much as you want to claim it is. It's a vague reference to a group of people that are talking about a game, not playing it.
You are only continuing to press an opinion.
So please do try to pause a moment on your irrationality long enough to consider the irony of your statements.
EDIT: As for any sort of "evidence" for my argument as you seem to demand it, In blizzards notes from a couple patches ago they stated the average wait time for dungeon queue as "a few minutes". Seeing as that's as close to an official statistic on the matter, I'm running with that.
To be maintaining the volume of people popping a queue every few minutes you have to have players setting them up, at a bare minimum without concurrent queuing, 2.4k people cycling. The reality is that the queue stacks multiple groups at once and since most people love DPS, the general flow it that there are a lot of queued groups that are awaiting a few heal/tank slots to be filled, meaning that those things are firing off regularly out of a rather consistent cycle of players hopping into loaded and waiting groups.
With the daily average of players swinging into 81,275 (courtesy of warcraftrealms for the stat tracking), even if there were only ten dungeons being run at any given time, this would mean that a bit over a quarter of the whole active user-base were in a dungeon, not including those that are queuing. The other three quarters are few to be questing, but you're smart enough to know the reality that they will be busy futzing about in a bunch of ways while a few of them are trying for optimal efficiency.
So even after you dug for data that was overall queue times (not leveling dungeons) and even assuming those times are global daily averages (and not simply specific to primetime), and even assuming the date the statement was made (which wasn't linked) and the date of the warcraftrealms data (also not linked, but probably considerably more recent with considerably lower player population) are close enough to be relevant to one another...even after all that you've produced numbers showing that only a quarter of the userbase is in dungeons at any given time?
I guess you're more interested in truth than I give you credit, since you've just posted even more evidence supporting what I've said. Or maybe not, given that you posted data supports my position and undermines your own, but then you somehow tried to twist things and conclude you were correct.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ah yes, because logic totally doesn't dictate that a bunch of those players aren't even playing to level right now, nor would they be doing things like, say, PvP instead.
If you really want to dig yourself a hole, might I suggest a shovel.
That a quarter of the population would be in dungeon queue is itself markedly significant, it's inane to be pretending otherwise.
That your argument has turned further from reason to press taunts and snide remarks in lieu of logic is telling as well.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
But how could you call this type of combat "deep", if all you need to do to win is get an autohotkey program and macro it?
Why wouldn't you call it deep? Game depth is a measure of how hard it is for humans to master a game. If you're not playing a game, you haven't exactly mastered it.
Would you say chess is shallow? We have chess-playing programs which will play chess perfectly for you. But that doesn't mean you've mastered chess. It means the program has mastered it.
For you to master chess would take a very long time, and that's why chess is deep. For you to master WOW would take a longer time than any other MMORPG, and that's why WOW is deep.
Nobody's saying WOW takes the same length of time to master as Chess, so you're free to call WOW shallow in that broader context of gaming. But we're mostly talking about MMORPGs here, and being the deepest MMORPG counts for something in our more specific context.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Convenience of laziness versus reward. That they have migrated to garrisons from cities changes very little.
All you're doing at present is arguing your anecdotal opinion.
It's objectively true that players solo more than grouping in MMORPGs. Even here (MMORPG.com) in a hardcore demographic of MMORPGs that includes some who believe forced-grouping should be a thing, polls consistently show the bias towards soloing. (Poll; also there was another one taken of EVE players which had similar results...maybe @Loktofeit ran that one?)
In WOW you level objectively faster with quests compared with dungeon groups. This is a simple fact of the rate of XP achievable in the average group you get compared with what you can achieve while plowing through quests. If you're not a tank character, groups are much slower because you're going to roll the dice on the quality of your dungeon group's tank each time, and often get a slow tank. If you are an expert tank character pushing your groups as hard as your mitigation and the healer's mana can handle, you still will not achieve a higher rate of XP/hour compared with questing. (No matter if you skip dungeon mobs to try to optimize completion XP, or if you pull mobs nonstop to try to optimize kill XP.)
So no, this isn't anecdotal opinion. It's objective fact. It's not possible to level faster in dungeons than by quests, and even when it was possible it's never been how the majority choose to level.
I believe there should be solo content as well as group content including but not limited to raiding. Now some people want raid to get raid gear from solo "raid" content. To which I say no way. Raid gear is for climing the raid content ladder (<for the pedantics>btw, not saying it is the only way</>). From that point of view, solo players don't need the raid gear.
IF you want to solo a mmoRPG that is fine. I spend a lot of time soloing in games. Nothing wrong with that. I dislike the idea that solo player need to have solo versions of group content.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Someone may have already covered this, 13:10-13:40. It all boils down to getting more people to buy your work, that is what the man said right after making the OPs flimsy point. The man said sell more and you will be happy. I interpret that as, "The more you sell, the better your work will be and the happier you will be with all that money."
That's the problem with making a point, and not listening or thinking about what it is you are truly saying. The OP thinks that this man is saying, "High revenue doesn't equal great work." In fact what this man is saying is, "Don't aim for high revenu at first, start low and work your way up to high revenue. Then everyone will know your work is great." The OP is fighting the very point this video is making.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
But how could you call this type of combat "deep", if all you need to do to win is get an autohotkey program and macro it?
For you to master chess would take a very long time, and that's why chess is deep. For you to master WOW would take a longer time than any other MMORPG, and that's why WOW is deep.
That DAoC has more classes and ability/combinations would immediately place this statement as false in a comparison.
But that'd require an objective opinion, not an advertisement.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Comments
We were literally just discussing Lineage 2...or...wait...sometimes I forget that sometimes people are completely new to the MMORPG genre and don't know how ridiculously grindy it used to be.
In L2 and many other early MMORPGs, you leveled up by finding an area with similar level mobs and fighting those mobs for literally hours.
In WOW, an hour of leveling gameplay will involve running ~7 different quests, which will ask the player to perform 3-5 different types of activities. Although to be fair if we're talking about WOW during its boom years, it was more like 7 quests that asked you to do 1-3 different types of activities.
So you tell me what's more repetitive:
- Kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, kill mob type A, SWITCH AREAS, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B, kill mob type B...
- OR go to town, get 3 quests, kill mob type A to finish quest A, kill mob type B so that you can collect all the stolen barrels to finish quest B, kill mob types C and D to fight your way to kill boss E who has a unique ability, return to town, turn in quests for rewards, get 3 new quests, kill mob type F to finish quest D, etc...
The gameplay variety in the latter is very obviously better than earlier MMORPGs.In fact the mob variety in the WOW example is still better than the vast majority of modern MMORPGs. WAR and SW:TOR were two examples of games where every mob played exactly the same (no variation.)
But yeah, if you just want to try to make a joke based on a false perception of the way the game played relative to its competition you're free to be willfully ignorant and nobody can stop you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Without your multiple daily reminders of what subjective means we'd all be at a serious loss. It's a tough one to wrap one's brain around but thank fuck you're here to save us all.
Can't wait for tomorrow's first episode of "The subjective Files"; hopefully we squeeze in at least four more by din din time...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
In damn near 2016, there is no mistaking reality. So sorry.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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Questing is by far the most common way players level in WOW.
Beyond that the experience of dungeon grinding in WOW involves greater mob variety (in a grinder you fought the same 1-3 mob types in an area for hours), greater environment variety (in the grinder you were in the same place for hours; with WOW queues you see 2-3 different dungeons regularly), and bosses (in the grinder you're just fighting regular mobs.)
Not to mention the fact that the dungeon queue didn't even exist during the main rise of WOW that we're discussing, so dungeon leveling was even less common than it is now.
Pick an argument with validity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you disputing that "good" is subjective? If you are, then WOW, clearly, with its much bigger success, a much better game than those "classics".
If you are not disputing that "good" is subjective, then clearly not everyone in the world think that those classics are good games. Otherwise, people would not be leaving those games when WOW came out.
You want to argue to the contrary then you have to find a server where the majority of players aren't standing in the major cities waiting for a cross-server queue.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
As of [always], solo gameplay has been more popular than grouping.
So even when grouping was balanced -- even when grouping was superior to quest leveling -- players quested more than they grouped.
Beyond that, players don't sit in major cities when they queue, they sit in their garrisons.
So no, your argument is invalid because it's completely detached from how MMORPGs are actually being played.
Now you'd have a valid argument if you turned those traits around and used them as the criticism:
- Clearly it'd be better if you didn't queue in garrisons (isolated quasi-social spaces) and instead queued in cities (fully social spaces).
- Clearly it'd be better if the game shifted back to grouping being a competitive way of leveling up, instead of being distinctly slower.
But even when both of those things were true, more players quested than grouped to level up. The majority of players sitting in town were simply idle, or were grouping for endgame content."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
All you're doing at present is arguing your anecdotal opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Regardless. bottom line is McDonalds Big Mac is not better than a steak dinner even though McDonalds makes tons of money
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
In WOW you level objectively faster with quests compared with dungeon groups. This is a simple fact of the rate of XP achievable in the average group you get compared with what you can achieve while plowing through quests. If you're not a tank character, groups are much slower because you're going to roll the dice on the quality of your dungeon group's tank each time, and often get a slow tank. If you are an expert tank character pushing your groups as hard as your mitigation and the healer's mana can handle, you still will not achieve a higher rate of XP/hour compared with questing. (No matter if you skip dungeon mobs to try to optimize completion XP, or if you pull mobs nonstop to try to optimize kill XP.)
So no, this isn't anecdotal opinion. It's objective fact. It's not possible to level faster in dungeons than by quests, and even when it was possible it's never been how the majority choose to level.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What you're arguing for is itself anecdotal, as all your claim is, is simply that people are playing more quests to level than they are tread-milling queues. It is at it's core an argument of opinion until a metric for that point itself is established. Everything else you are saying is pointless fluff dancing around the fact that your central argument is nothing more than an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
- You said: "An hour of leveling more often involves queuing for the same instance over and over."
- I've explained why that's objectively false. We know most players solo when given the choice (especially during the leveling process.) And this is true even when grouping is balanced. And last time I did objective analysis on XP rates (a little more than a year ago), solo-questing produced far superior rate of XP.
Your statement was objectively wrong. Just own up to it and move on."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your statement now is you trying to make a subjective claim into an objective one, making you very distinctly wrong as opposed to just having a vehement opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
In order for mmorpg to keep progressing and be successful "for years to come", they need to keep generating money.
If you wish to look at your own lack of evidence, and my evidence, and deliberately ignore the evidence, then you're free to of course. You'll be arguing from a position you know to be baseless against a position with good proof (which through research you could find even more proof) but that's up to you if you find ignorance acceptable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You are only continuing to press an opinion.
So please do try to pause a moment on your irrationality long enough to consider the irony of your statements.
EDIT: As for any sort of "evidence" for my argument as you seem to demand it, In blizzards notes from a couple patches ago they stated the average wait time for dungeon queue as "a few minutes". Seeing as that's as close to an official statistic on the matter, I'm running with that.
To be maintaining the volume of people popping a queue every few minutes you have to have players setting them up, at a bare minimum without concurrent queuing, 2.4k people cycling. The reality is that the queue stacks multiple groups at once and since most people love DPS, the general flow it that there are a lot of queued groups that are awaiting a few heal/tank slots to be filled, meaning that those things are firing off regularly out of a rather consistent cycle of players hopping into loaded and waiting groups.
With the daily average of players swinging into 81,275 (courtesy of warcraftrealms for the stat tracking), even if there were only ten dungeons being run at any given time, this would mean that a bit over a quarter of the whole active user-base were in a dungeon, not including those that are queuing. The other three quarters are few to be questing, but you're smart enough to know the reality that they will be busy futzing about in a bunch of ways while a few of them are trying for optimal efficiency.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I guess you're more interested in truth than I give you credit, since you've just posted even more evidence supporting what I've said. Or maybe not, given that you posted data supports my position and undermines your own, but then you somehow tried to twist things and conclude you were correct.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you really want to dig yourself a hole, might I suggest a shovel.
That a quarter of the population would be in dungeon queue is itself markedly significant, it's inane to be pretending otherwise.
That your argument has turned further from reason to press taunts and snide remarks in lieu of logic is telling as well.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Would you say chess is shallow? We have chess-playing programs which will play chess perfectly for you. But that doesn't mean you've mastered chess. It means the program has mastered it.
For you to master chess would take a very long time, and that's why chess is deep. For you to master WOW would take a longer time than any other MMORPG, and that's why WOW is deep.
Nobody's saying WOW takes the same length of time to master as Chess, so you're free to call WOW shallow in that broader context of gaming. But we're mostly talking about MMORPGs here, and being the deepest MMORPG counts for something in our more specific context.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I believe there should be solo content as well as group content including but not limited to raiding. Now some people want raid to get raid gear from solo "raid" content. To which I say no way. Raid gear is for climing the raid content ladder (<for the pedantics>btw, not saying it is the only way</>). From that point of view, solo players don't need the raid gear.
IF you want to solo a mmoRPG that is fine. I spend a lot of time soloing in games. Nothing wrong with that. I dislike the idea that solo player need to have solo versions of group content.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
That's the problem with making a point, and not listening or thinking about what it is you are truly saying. The OP thinks that this man is saying, "High revenue doesn't equal great work." In fact what this man is saying is, "Don't aim for high revenu at first, start low and work your way up to high revenue. Then everyone will know your work is great." The OP is fighting the very point this video is making.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
But that'd require an objective opinion, not an advertisement.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin