Paying for an advantage = p2w. Paying to progress faster = p2w Paying for benefits outside of aesthetics = p2w
Any game that allows you to get ahead because you paid money is a pay to win game. You may not be immediately winning, but you are paying money which is leaning toward that desired outcome.
Seems to me that by that definition only a boxed game with no Deluxe Edition (or similar), no sub, no DLC, no shop is not P2W.
Interesting.
I do not agree at all, but interesting.
The deluxe edition does not need to include anything that makes you progress faster or gives any benefits outside of aesthetics.
As for subscription: if the game is not playable (except for a severely limited test access which for instance is limited in time) without a subscription, then buying the subscription won't give you any advantage versus other players. That's just a participation fee, not a fee to get an advantage against other participants.
Being able to buy anything, any amount of times that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage
So the glowing footprints in Path of Exile give you an immediate advantage? How about the scorpion pet? The electric spiders alternate art for spark?
Wouldn't those all fit under "being able to buy anything"?
He did put the condition "that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage", so that's why the glowing footprints and scorpion pet are not P2W according to his definition.
Everyone has their own definition, and clearly people do not agree.
No one because there is no central authority, nor consensus.
Which is why the OP asked for our personal definitions of something that is undefineable largely because there's nothing really to win in the first place.
By that you really mean that there is nothing to win that you personally care about. In plenty of games there are competitions and therefore winners and losers. A common one is the economic competitions: as soon as there is a market, people are competing about selling and buying items. In PvP games, then any battle is a competition.
My view is that anything you can buy with real money that gives you an advantage over another player in combat is a potential P2W item. That includes armour, weapons, buff/healing potions, etc.
In PvE, who cares. In PvP, P2W is a definite no-no.
lunawisp was my peacebringer in City of Heroes. She lives on, in memory, as my gaming id
the RDM boxes with cosmetic items only are acceptable because it's totally optional and doesn't give you a competitive advantage.
They are still pay 2 win items, its all about each one of us gameplay, I play to collect, so all collectibles are pay 2 win if they came from real money. Collectibles can be from armor sets to ships to vehicles to weapons. And collecting is competitive advantage. For example i'll speak for the last MMO i played (SWTOR) when they enter the monthly packs with real money and the collectible speeders and armor sets that were only inside those packs. Wasa war in Bazaar for them. And something that many games have it as and the SWTOR too. The Achievement score. With a vote that came the result was 80% they want the achievement score to be shown at head of the character in place of the title.
Post edited by defector1968 on
fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
Everyone has their own definition, and clearly people do not agree.
No one because there is no central authority, nor consensus.
Which is why the OP asked for our personal definitions of something that is undefineable largely because there's nothing really to win in the first place.
By that you really mean that there is nothing to win that you personally care about. In plenty of games there are competitions and therefore winners and losers. A common one is the economic competitions: as soon as there is a market, people are competing about selling and buying items. In PvP games, then any battle is a competition.
I have a very clear and specific definition of what "winning" (and losing) is, and the only person I really compete against is myself.
Let's try the economic angle you proposed. Last night I did some mining and made around 400M ISk worth of ore.
Some other guy working in the same area was clearly mining more ore than I because he was leaving it in the compression array for me to see. (was dropping 8 loads of ore per cycle to my 5)
Yet he didn't "win" anything. His extra income gained him no real advantage over me as I can afford to buy almost anything I want, when I want.
What I was trying to do was maximize my revenue for the evening and since my personal baseline is 250M an evening I well exceeded this.
Now if that other player's greater success in mining somehow impacted me then perhaps you have a point. But no, his actions had no impact on my ore gathering, nor will it impact me in hauling the ore to market (the PVP gankers might) or in selling it.
Again, nothing really to win, so why worry.
Here's a good example of losing. While mining a small gang of 3 players came into our space with one flying a very bling fit Rattlesnake. (expensive faction fit battleship)
Now maybe he paid real money to have maximum skills to fly his ship. Maybe he bought it outright by selling PLEX for ISK, I dunno.
Even if he did both of those doesn't change the fact he and his friends were swarmed by around 40 players who quickly trapped them, killing 2 including the 1.6B Isk snake.
So while I'll never know if any "P2W" was involved (since it clearly had no impact on the outcome) I know for sure who won and lost for the evening.
TLDR version: there are things to win at in EVE but Skill point progression and even ISK in your wallet really arent part of the list.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anything you add to your character (even cosmetic or temporary) is an advantage in terms of building your character. Getting to the end game and beating all the content or beating everyone in PvP is not the only goal in an MMORPG. If that were the case people wouldn't buy cosmetic items.
Time may be an unfair advantage to some, but it is a fairer way to play the game. Basically in a time based game you get what you put into it. Putting in a lot of hours is a big sacrifice in other areas of your life. It also takes a lot out of you to play that much. I know because it was very draining on me when I played UO and EQ a lot when I was young. The big point in a subscription is that everyone has to invest the same amount of time and earn the items they get. That is a huge difference IMO.
Cosmetics are arguably advantages.
Cosmetics definitely are not winning.
You sure you can't win on a beauty contest? Think again.
the RDM boxes with cosmetic items only are acceptable because it's totally optional and doesn't give you a competitive advantage.
They are still pay 2 win items, its all about each one of us gameplay, I play to collect, so all collectibles are pay 2 win if they came from real money. Collectibles can be from armor sets to ships to vehicles to weapons. And collecting is competitive advantage. For example i'll speak for the last MMO i played (SWTOR) when they enter the monthly packs with real money and the collectible speeders and armor sets that were only inside those packs. Wasa war in Bazaar for them. And something that many games have it as and the SWTOR too. The Achievement score. With a vote that came the result was 80% they want the achievement score to be shown at head of the character in place of the title.
then call it what it is....pay to collect. to me pay to win suggests paying to get a competitive advantage. if what you describe is pay to win, then i'm assuming you feel almost every single mmo is pay to win?
Even if he did both of those doesn't change the fact he and his friends were swarmed by around 40 players who quickly trapped them, killing 2 including the 1.6B Isk snake.
So while I'll never know if any "P2W" was involved (since it clearly had no impact on the outcome) I know for sure who won and lost for the evening. .
How can you be sure p2w has no impact on the outcome?
If all of the winning side bought some of all of their skill points in skills that they used in combat, isn't that, by definition, an impact?
75% is about as close to a consensus as you will ever find on these forums. We couldn't get 75% of posters to agree that green was a color.
I would be surprised even if there is a 75% consensus on anything. But again, that is why it is fun. If everyone is preaching to the choir, and saying the same thing, why come here at all?
To read about game releases, updates, interviews, seek groups, share new finds, theory-craft, setup and participate in social game events, share pictures of squirrels tied to sticks being used as grabby-arms, and maybe even meet others that are actually into MMOs?
Perhaps the last one is wishful thinking on a site called "MMORPG.com".
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
To read about game releases, updates, interviews, seek groups, share new finds, theory-craft, setup and participate in social game events, share pictures of squirrels tied to sticks being used as grabby-arms, and maybe even meet others that are actually into MMOs?
Perhaps the last one is wishful thinking on a site called "MMORPG.com".
lol .. really? game releases and updates here? It is much easier to just to go pcgamer, or metacritics for that ... with the added advantage that you can find other games to:pleased:
And why seek group here, instead of inside whatever game you are playing. You met me. Is "like to discuss MMOs" count as "into MMOs"?
75% is about as close to a consensus as you will ever find on these forums. We couldn't get 75% of posters to agree that green was a color.
I would be surprised even if there is a 75% consensus on anything. But again, that is why it is fun. If everyone is preaching to the choir, and saying the same thing, why come here at all?
The poll is currently sitting at 77% to 22%
There is no "right" answer and that's why I phrased the question the way I did. But the first option is as close to a consensus as you will ever find on these boards.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Games arent P2W, Players are, Games arent in the wrong, Publishers are Games make profits even if not p2w model, Publishers dont care As long as you buy it , we will print it.
P2W to me is the ability to spend extra money for any advantage that gives you a leg up against against another average player. Be it selling faster mounts which get you places quicker, better gear or even equivelent gear that gives you an advantage in either combat or time to aquire, bigger bags that allow you to save time not having to vendor as often or be choosy on what you pickup, or an exp potion that gives you a boost in leveling over someone else. Or simply something that allows your character to use something that otherwise would be higher level just because its a cash shop item.
If its not part of the standard game and does anything beyond cosmetic to me its P2W as its said but a better term would be pay for advantage.
If it saves time, game money, or effects combat in any way its an advantage and thus by my definition P2W.
To me a game is only P2W if spending real money gives you an advantage over a Casual Player once both players reach the level cap and/or End game content.
---------------------------------------------
Some special considerations below:
Up until the End Game or Level Cap everything would just be considered a speed boost. Unless of course there is no level cap, then any type of exp boost would defiantly be P2W.
If all the items can be acquired in game, but the amount of items required to get the same advantage as a paying player exceeds that of a casual player. No player should have to play more then the average to be at an equal level with a paying player.
Faster leveling, Extra loot, and buying items in game does not immediately make the game P2W but it has to be very closely managed and balanced properly so it does not tip the game to a play style the goes beyond the two considerations above.
@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
Explain how that does not fall under the first option...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
Explain how that does not fall under the first option...No.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Comments
In PvE, who cares.
In PvP, P2W is a definite no-no.
And collecting is competitive advantage. For example i'll speak for the last MMO i played (SWTOR) when they enter the monthly packs with real money and the collectible speeders and armor sets that were only inside those packs. Wasa war in Bazaar for them. And something that many games have it as and the SWTOR too. The Achievement score. With a vote that came the result was 80% they want the achievement score to be shown at head of the character in place of the title.
Let's try the economic angle you proposed. Last night I did some mining and made around 400M ISk worth of ore.
Some other guy working in the same area was clearly mining more ore than I because he was leaving it in the compression array for me to see. (was dropping 8 loads of ore per cycle to my 5)
Yet he didn't "win" anything. His extra income gained him no real advantage over me as I can afford to buy almost anything I want, when I want.
What I was trying to do was maximize my revenue for the evening and since my personal baseline is 250M an evening I well exceeded this.
Now if that other player's greater success in mining somehow impacted me then perhaps you have a point. But no, his actions had no impact on my ore gathering, nor will it impact me in hauling the ore to market (the PVP gankers might) or in selling it.
Again, nothing really to win, so why worry.
Here's a good example of losing. While mining a small gang of 3 players came into our space with one flying a very bling fit Rattlesnake. (expensive faction fit battleship)
Now maybe he paid real money to have maximum skills to fly his ship. Maybe he bought it outright by selling PLEX for ISK, I dunno.
Even if he did both of those doesn't change the fact he and his friends were swarmed by around 40 players who quickly trapped them, killing 2 including the 1.6B Isk snake.
So while I'll never know if any "P2W" was involved (since it clearly had no impact on the outcome) I know for sure who won and lost for the evening.
TLDR version: there are things to win at in EVE but Skill point progression and even ISK in your wallet really arent part of the list.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You sure you can't win on a beauty contest? Think again.
kind of a silly way to look at it IMO
If all of the winning side bought some of all of their skill points in skills that they used in combat, isn't that, by definition, an impact?
P2W is as real as Bigfoot is.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Perhaps the last one is wishful thinking on a site called "MMORPG.com".
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
lol .. really? game releases and updates here? It is much easier to just to go pcgamer, or metacritics for that ... with the added advantage that you can find other games to:pleased:
And why seek group here, instead of inside whatever game you are playing. You met me. Is "like to discuss MMOs" count as "into MMOs"?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There is no "right" answer and that's why I phrased the question the way I did. But the first option is as close to a consensus as you will ever find on these boards.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Games arent in the wrong, Publishers are
Games make profits even if not p2w model, Publishers dont care
As long as you buy it , we will print it.
Trion ,Archeage -the true p2w god
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9GqaJaS4bs
If its not part of the standard game and does anything beyond cosmetic to me its P2W as its said but a better term would be pay for advantage.
If it saves time, game money, or effects combat in any way its an advantage and thus by my definition P2W.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
---------------------------------------------
Some special considerations below:
Up until the End Game or Level Cap everything would just be considered a speed boost. Unless of course there is no level cap, then any type of exp boost would defiantly be P2W.
If all the items can be acquired in game, but the amount of items required to get the same advantage as a paying player exceeds that of a casual player. No player should have to play more then the average to be at an equal level with a paying player.
Faster leveling, Extra loot, and buying items in game does not immediately make the game P2W but it has to be very closely managed and balanced properly so it does not tip the game to a play style the goes beyond the two considerations above.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.