"It's really sad when a game does something so ridiculous that it's biggest defenders decide that enough is enough."
I'm still a big fan of the game, but I won't be playing it anymore if this change goes through.
Really ? What difference does it really make to you if the folks killing you are whales, no-lifers or basement trolls ? If it takes 80 hours a week of playing or $ 150 a week of spending to be in the top 10% who cares ,,,not me . There are folks complaining in the forums about this game becoming P2W who also claim to have spent 1000, 2000 and even 5000 already in the cash shop and now they are calling this pay to win ?
LOL lets face it the normal gamer spends 30-100 dollars ...plays a B2P game to avoid the idiotic F2P crowd and hopes no hacker or gold seller or other form of low life asshat ruins their fun .I'll play until the games no fun or I find something better to play in the meantime I'll experience BDO to the fullest
The difference is the no-lifer invested time and effort in the game to get good in the game. He improved his character by playing it.
The idea behind MMORPGs is your character is a virtual person. When they're grinding away, they're getting stronger, like you would in real life if you worked out all the time.
As soon as games stop rewarding dedication to the game, it becomes meaningless. That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
Achievements become meaningless and there is nothing to admire when you see someone else in amazing gear or able to accomplish amazing feats, because they just bought that power.
holdenhamlet said: The idea behind MMORPGs is your character is a virtual person. When they're grinding away, they're getting stronger, like you would in real life if you worked out all the time.
As soon as games stop rewarding dedication to the game, it becomes meaningless. That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
Achievements become meaningless and there is nothing to admire when you see someone else in amazing gear or able to accomplish amazing feats, because they just bought that power.
That is YOUR idea.
Different people play games differently for different reasons.
Some people do not enjoy the "achievement" part - the grinding. Using RL to bypass that grind allows them to enjoy the game as much as people who enjoy the grinding.
holdenhamlet said: I have zero problems with a company making games to make money.
Apparently you do have problems with how company is making money and feel the urge to "inform" people about it...
Yeah I have a problem if a company is basically planning on fleecing the playerbase to fund hair salons. Call me crazy.
At least with most short-term-goaled f2p companies, they're using the money to invest in new games. Kakao is moving away from gaming.
And for all you cold hard cynics out there- you can make money as a business and keep your customers happy at the same time. That's a time-honored business technique that's been around even longer than f2p.
holdenhamlet said: The idea behind MMORPGs is your character is a virtual person. When they're grinding away, they're getting stronger, like you would in real life if you worked out all the time.
As soon as games stop rewarding dedication to the game, it becomes meaningless. That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
Achievements become meaningless and there is nothing to admire when you see someone else in amazing gear or able to accomplish amazing feats, because they just bought that power.
That is YOUR idea.
Different people play games differently for different reasons.
Some people do not enjoy the "achievement" part - the grinding. Using RL to bypass that grind allows them to enjoy the game as much as people who enjoy the grinding.
No issue there.
Putting aside the fact that I question whether you should be playing MMOs if you want to skip the "achievement" part...
The "I just want to pay to get to the good part" argument doesn't apply to BDO. There is no "good part" to get to. Grinding IS the end-game.
Besides, whales who think they can simply buy wins against the dreaded "no-lifers" (actual players of the game) are going to be sorely surprised when they find out that there is an even more fearsome creature that will wipe the floor with both the whales and the no-lifers- the dreaded no-lifer whale.
Anyway, not sure why you've taken the time to actually comment rather than just click the LOL button. You don't even play the game and have railed against it non-stop since it released.
holdenhamlet said: And for all you cold hard cynics out there- you can make money as a business and keep your customers happy at the same time.
That is precisely what they are doing - making more money and happy customers.
Of course, they cannot please everyone.
Wouldn't be the first company to sacrifice their playerbase for the sake of a few more $$. SOE did it with SWG, trouble is, in chasing after the 'WoW' playerbase, they sacrifice their own, and that was when the game died, it never recovered after that one fateful decision, and was probably one of many decisions that resulted in Sony selling off that division, and SOE's ultimate demise as DBG. The warning signs are all there, even SOE had them from the test servers prior to the NGE, but they ignored them, if Daum ignores their playerbase on this change of direction for the game, then there is absolutely no reason why their fate will be any different than that of SOE's.
holdenhamlet said: No, it's not. There literally are no dungeons in the game. The game features limitless progression, meaning grind IS the endgame.
You literally cannot "skip the grind" because all there is is grind.
And unlike most p2w MMOs, because of the sales cap, you cannot even skip the majority of the grind.
Spending $150 a week skips some of the grind. Great- what waits for you there? More grind.
OK, back to "LOLing" since the discussion just became again plain silly...
Wow, I got a reply AND a LOL. What an honor. No rebuttal though, which is not surprising. Back to ignore you go since there's no point in responding to someone that is not actually going to engage in a conversation.
"The game business appears intended as a temporary cash cow."
I do not think they will make more money long-term by going p2w. By implementing p2w, it's very clear they will lose tons of players. By implementing a cap on sales, it seems to me they will lose whales as well, since they will still lose unless they grind a lot on top of paying the maximum amount per week. This will leave a desolate landscape catering only to whales with a lot of free time- a very small percentage of players since if you have money to burn, you probably don't have tons of free time.
But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense. They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended. They are making what they can from games now before they shift their focus to "offline investments", such as hair salons, taxi services, and housekeeping services.
***
Do not support the implementation of p2w. Do not be part of a stepping stone for a company that is planning on abandoning their gaming investment.
We players play MMOs for the long-term, not to be bait-and-switched after just a few months. We should expect and demand that our developers and publishers provide honest and adequate services for years.
Just a few weeks ago you were saying "it is the journey that matters" now all that is matter to you is that someone will get +20 weapon a month before you. You people and your hypocrisy never seize to amaze me.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Phry said: Wouldn't be the first company to sacrifice their playerbase for the sake of a few more $$. SOE did it with SWG, trouble is, in chasing after the 'WoW' playerbase, they sacrifice their own, and that was when the game died, it never recovered after that one fateful decision, and was probably one of many decisions that resulted in Sony selling off that division, and SOE's ultimate demise as DBG. The warning signs are all there, even SOE had them from the test servers prior to the NGE, but they ignored them, if Daum ignores their playerbase on this change of direction for the game, then there is absolutely no reason why their fate will be any different than that of SOE's.
Uff uff, nothing less then general sweeping statements and unrelated NGE boogeyman...
Fact is, there are more than plenty of games that allow trading of cash shop items for in-game money and there does not seem to be any issue with that, the leading example being EVE Online.
But hey, do not get facts and common sense get into your way of ranting and doom & gloom mongering..
"The game business appears intended as a temporary cash cow."
I do not think they will make more money long-term by going p2w. By implementing p2w, it's very clear they will lose tons of players. By implementing a cap on sales, it seems to me they will lose whales as well, since they will still lose unless they grind a lot on top of paying the maximum amount per week. This will leave a desolate landscape catering only to whales with a lot of free time- a very small percentage of players since if you have money to burn, you probably don't have tons of free time.
But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense. They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended. They are making what they can from games now before they shift their focus to "offline investments", such as hair salons, taxi services, and housekeeping services.
***
Do not support the implementation of p2w. Do not be part of a stepping stone for a company that is planning on abandoning their gaming investment.
We players play MMOs for the long-term, not to be bait-and-switched after just a few months. We should expect and demand that our developers and publishers provide honest and adequate services for years.
Just a few weeks ago you were saying "it is the journey that matters" now all that is matter to you is that someone will get +20 weapon a month before you. You people and your hypocrisy never seize to amaze me.
Probably best not to accuse others of hypocrisy from such shaky foundations, all things considered. While i can't say for certain how long it takes to get a +20 weapon, i can say that after 3 months i am only at the stage of having +16. But all semantics aside, this all really revolves around one central fact;
Why should someones ability to spend real money in a game be allowed to significantly influence gameplay in that game?
The excuses, not even reasons in themselves, to get around that one fact, its that hypocrisy that never ceases to amaze me. O.o
Pay to win generates more revenue. Funny enough, it's usually the people who whine the loudest about it that wind up spending the most money on P2W items. Go figure.
Kooncoon in AA, bastard spend crazy money in AA, have outrageous gears from the gold he made by RMT and then as soon as he dies he starts screaming "PAY2WIN!!! I HATE PAY2WIN!!!"
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
"The game business appears intended as a temporary cash cow."
I do not think they will make more money long-term by going p2w. By implementing p2w, it's very clear they will lose tons of players. By implementing a cap on sales, it seems to me they will lose whales as well, since they will still lose unless they grind a lot on top of paying the maximum amount per week. This will leave a desolate landscape catering only to whales with a lot of free time- a very small percentage of players since if you have money to burn, you probably don't have tons of free time.
But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense. They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended. They are making what they can from games now before they shift their focus to "offline investments", such as hair salons, taxi services, and housekeeping services.
***
Do not support the implementation of p2w. Do not be part of a stepping stone for a company that is planning on abandoning their gaming investment.
We players play MMOs for the long-term, not to be bait-and-switched after just a few months. We should expect and demand that our developers and publishers provide honest and adequate services for years.
Just a few weeks ago you were saying "it is the journey that matters" now all that is matter to you is that someone will get +20 weapon a month before you. You people and your hypocrisy never seize to amaze me.
Probably best not to accuse others of hypocrisy from such shaky foundations, all things considered. While i can't say for certain how long it takes to get a +20 weapon, i can say that after 3 months i am only at the stage of having +16. But all semantics aside, this all really revolves around one central fact;
Why should someones ability to spend real money in a game be allowed to significantly influence gameplay in that game?
The excuses, not even reasons in themselves, to get around that one fact, its that hypocrisy that never ceases to amaze me. O.o
I am not accusing, i am telling you guys that you guys are batshit hypocrites.
So what if someone gets a +20 weapon or armor before you? If someone been playing for 6 months and a new player comes in he finds out everyone is outrageous geared and he can't do anything about it, the veterans players used their real life money to buy the game ahead of the newbie and constantly played the game thanks to the money they earn(or probably their parents) making their lives so easy that they can play games so much and go ahead in progression so much, why don't you complain about it? Certainly the veteran players playing for months ahead of newbie used their real life resources to trump the new player, go ahead and start crying a river for the new player now.
I am not the one getting around fact, i am making ways for you people to see the fact that you keep your eyes close to and only choose to use it when it serves your purpose.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Phry said: But all semantics aside, this all really revolves around one central fact;
Why should someones ability to spend real money in a game be allowed to significantly influence gameplay in that game?
1) It is not a fact. 2) Why not?
Money do influence our experience, MMOs are no exception.
Then we differ in our viewpoints, because i would rather the gameplay be influenced by ability.
you say that money influences your experiences, but would you choose friends or perhaps a partner based on their financial situation, and would you be all that happy if they made decisions about you in the same way?
Phry said: Then we differ in our viewpoints, because i would rather the gameplay be influenced by ability.
you say that money influences your experiences, but would you choose
friends or perhaps a partner based on their financial situation, and
would you be all that happy if they made decisions about you in the same
way?
Money and skill aren't mutually exclusive. More often than not, you need both.
Money do undoubtedly affect who our friends and partners will be. That is a no brainer.
It is not a matter of choice or "different viewpoint", money do affect our lives and whatever we do.
Back to BDO.
There are people who have time. There are people who have money.
Allowing to trade cash shop items for in-game money is beneficial to both groups - the ones with time may purchase items from cash shop without need of real money and those with real money may skip parts of the game they do not enjoy.
Phry said: Then we differ in our viewpoints, because i would rather the gameplay be influenced by ability.
you say that money influences your experiences, but would you choose
friends or perhaps a partner based on their financial situation, and
would you be all that happy if they made decisions about you in the same
way?
Money and skill aren't mutually exclusive. More often than not, you need both.
It is not a matter of choice or "different viewpoint", money do affect our lives and whatever we do. Period.
Money and skill are not related either, but two entirely seperate and different concepts.
Whether you let money influence your life is perhaps where we differ in our viewpoints. Money is just money, it has no value other than that which you ascribe to it. Skill, or perhaps Ability is something relating to you personally, and if your solution to a problem is to throw money at it, then your ability to progress through 'skill' will naturally suffer.
The choices we make in life define who we are. Be more than a wallet.
"Everyone whining about the move by Kakao to allow users to sell cash shop items for in game currency on the market have zero understanding of online economics.
There are two key performance indicators (KPI) for an online business which does not sell tangible goods and they are:
1. Number of users
2. Average Revenue per User (ARPU).
In the case of BDO EU/US there was a short term KPI at launch as well which was:
3. Number of people who pre-order.
It should be noted that 3 was only a short term KPI to give an indication of how much Kakao should invest in EU/US operations (open and run the business from Europe or manage operations from Korea). Once the game actually launched 3 rapidly became irrelevant as 1 and 2 take over.
Now, Pearl Abyss (the owners of the game) look at these KPI across all regions they have licensed the game to determine which markets are strong and which are need work. If one region is not performing as well as the others (lower ARPU) then they analyse what is different about that market and make changes to correct the problem.
It is pretty bloody clear that ARPU in EU/US is not as high as it is in other regions - if it was or if it was higher, they would not make any changes which might disrupt their revenues. So Daum looked at what is different in other regions that might contribute to the higher ARPU and the blindingly obvious difference is the ability to sell cash shop items in the game.
Whether you guys like it or not you are in the minority and whether you think Kakao looking at short to medium gains is a good idea or not is utterly irrelevant. With very few exceptions, online video games have a short to medium term lifecycle because people move on to the next "big thing" even if they have committed significant time and resources into a game. That is the nature of the world - it is not static, people move on, new things become available and people want to be part of the new thing.
Furthermore, Kakao have no legal responsibility to keep you happy but they do have a legal obligation to keep their shareholders happy (it is called fiduciary duty look it up). The way you keep shareholders happy is by maximising their return on their investment and making business decision which will increase profits and thus dividends.
If you think Kakao have a duty to you you are sadly naive and mistaken - you are utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The market says P2W, market performance confirms overwhelming that P2W works and as such Kakao have an obligation and legal duty to their shareholders to implement P2W - and no matter how many sweaty little teenagers complain about it, it is not going to make any difference.
BDO EU/US ARPU -will- increase as a result of this change, that much is guaranteed."
Just like other P2W games have not died, neither will Black Desert after this change- this will increase their revenue stream and they'll simply make more money.
Ya so people have figured out how to turn MMO's into eCommerce sites, that's nothing new at all in general, ecommerce sites have been around for well over a decade. Great, they can maximize their income from the players, hardly creative and again easy to do once it was realized gamers will pay more money for the same thing.
Originally MMO's were not being created to explore new economic models and to take advantage of peoples spending habits and addictions. MMO's were created to for the first time bring 1000's of gamers together in one world, to play those games we love together. Simple pure and fun.
Games were created to have fun, and usually built around the passion of a gamer himself, the programmer being the gamer.
So wonderful, we are in the process of creating the most effective systems to get money from people using a game platform as an estore. But how is that good for gaming? Obviously its not ,in any way. It doesnt mean more money to make great games, it means more money to create games that are better at getting more money out of players, its been horrible for gamers. Companies have refined how to get more money from people for the same experience and then designed even more exacting systems to extract even more money out of people. This is not why we started playing games how ever many years ago. At least it wasn't for me then and it isn't why I play games today.
Comments
The idea behind MMORPGs is your character is a virtual person. When they're grinding away, they're getting stronger, like you would in real life if you worked out all the time.
As soon as games stop rewarding dedication to the game, it becomes meaningless. That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
Achievements become meaningless and there is nothing to admire when you see someone else in amazing gear or able to accomplish amazing feats, because they just bought that power.
Different people play games differently for different reasons.
Some people do not enjoy the "achievement" part - the grinding. Using RL to bypass that grind allows them to enjoy the game as much as people who enjoy the grinding.
No issue there.
At least with most short-term-goaled f2p companies, they're using the money to invest in new games. Kakao is moving away from gaming.
And for all you cold hard cynics out there- you can make money as a business and keep your customers happy at the same time. That's a time-honored business technique that's been around even longer than f2p.
Of course, they cannot please everyone.
The "I just want to pay to get to the good part" argument doesn't apply to BDO. There is no "good part" to get to. Grinding IS the end-game.
Besides, whales who think they can simply buy wins against the dreaded "no-lifers" (actual players of the game) are going to be sorely surprised when they find out that there is an even more fearsome creature that will wipe the floor with both the whales and the no-lifers- the dreaded no-lifer whale.
Anyway, not sure why you've taken the time to actually comment rather than just click the LOL button. You don't even play the game and have railed against it non-stop since it released.
Very few players will end up happy when the dust settles. Basically trust-fund babies.
You literally cannot "skip the grind" because all there is is grind.
And unlike most p2w MMOs, because of the sales cap, you cannot even skip the majority of the grind.
Spending $150 a week skips some of the grind. Great- what waits for you there? More grind.
SOE did it with SWG, trouble is, in chasing after the 'WoW' playerbase, they sacrifice their own, and that was when the game died, it never recovered after that one fateful decision, and was probably one of many decisions that resulted in Sony selling off that division, and SOE's ultimate demise as DBG.
The warning signs are all there, even SOE had them from the test servers prior to the NGE, but they ignored them, if Daum ignores their playerbase on this change of direction for the game, then there is absolutely no reason why their fate will be any different than that of SOE's.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Fact is, there are more than plenty of games that allow trading of cash shop items for in-game money and there does not seem to be any issue with that, the leading example being EVE Online.
But hey, do not get facts and common sense get into your way of ranting and doom & gloom mongering..
While i can't say for certain how long it takes to get a +20 weapon, i can say that after 3 months i am only at the stage of having +16.
But all semantics aside, this all really revolves around one central fact;
Why should someones ability to spend real money in a game be allowed to significantly influence gameplay in that game?
The excuses, not even reasons in themselves, to get around that one fact, its that hypocrisy that never ceases to amaze me. O.o
2) Why not?
Money do influence our experience, MMOs are no exception.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
So what if someone gets a +20 weapon or armor before you? If someone been playing for 6 months and a new player comes in he finds out everyone is outrageous geared and he can't do anything about it, the veterans players used their real life money to buy the game ahead of the newbie and constantly played the game thanks to the money they earn(or probably their parents) making their lives so easy that they can play games so much and go ahead in progression so much, why don't you complain about it? Certainly the veteran players playing for months ahead of newbie used their real life resources to trump the new player, go ahead and start crying a river for the new player now.
I am not the one getting around fact, i am making ways for you people to see the fact that you keep your eyes close to and only choose to use it when it serves your purpose.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
you say that money influences your experiences, but would you choose friends or perhaps a partner based on their financial situation, and would you be all that happy if they made decisions about you in the same way?
Money do undoubtedly affect who our friends and partners will be. That is a no brainer.
It is not a matter of choice or "different viewpoint", money do affect our lives and whatever we do.
Back to BDO.
There are people who have time.
There are people who have money.
Allowing to trade cash shop items for in-game money is beneficial to both groups - the ones with time may purchase items from cash shop without need of real money and those with real money may skip parts of the game they do not enjoy.
So now, tell me where precisely is the harm done?
Whether you let money influence your life is perhaps where we differ in our viewpoints.
Money is just money, it has no value other than that which you ascribe to it.
Skill, or perhaps Ability is something relating to you personally, and if your solution to a problem is to throw money at it, then your ability to progress through 'skill' will naturally suffer.
The choices we make in life define who we are. Be more than a wallet.
Originally MMO's were not being created to explore new economic models and to take advantage of peoples spending habits and addictions. MMO's were created to for the first time bring 1000's of gamers together in one world, to play those games we love together. Simple pure and fun.
Games were created to have fun, and usually built around the passion of a gamer himself, the programmer being the gamer.
So wonderful, we are in the process of creating the most effective systems to get money from people using a game platform as an estore. But how is that good for gaming? Obviously its not ,in any way. It doesnt mean more money to make great games, it means more money to create games that are better at getting more money out of players, its been horrible for gamers. Companies have refined how to get more money from people for the same experience and then designed even more exacting systems to extract even more money out of people. This is not why we started playing games how ever many years ago. At least it wasn't for me then and it isn't why I play games today.