To certain degree, yes. But if the grind get too boring those players would leave as well.
If you add some random elements and keep the difficulty high enough so you need to pay attention then fine but killing 10 000 easy skeletons would bore anyone not from Korea or China to death (they seem more forgiving to that type of grind then westerners).
What most of us see as a huge grind is relatively easy content you need to repeat over and over, like daily quests to mention a common grind most MMOs have. That type of content is neither fun nor challenging.
There are other types of grind that feel far less annoying, like a slow pace of experience point. Those you usually can gain in a variety of ways so you don't have to farm the same spot for 20 levels. It still bothers some people but far less then the type you constantly repeat the same thing.
The old games that had a slow leveling speed usually had a way larger world size then most new games so you had a bit more choices, just changing the leveling speed of a small game (like AoC to mention one) would not work very well either.
In short: MMOs with grind can be fun as long as it have the right kind of grind. For super hardcore players you do either need grind or player generated content (unless you can make a good randomizer). Boring grind will take away even most hardcore players after a while.
Yes i agree. Grind and MMO's must live together, yet no game as content to play for years that is what many people do with MMO's so the grind bar increases over time so the players are given always something to grind for.
At the end the gameplay loop needs to backup the grind otherwise you are not playing the game and having fun as you grind for stuff, you are forcefully play through things you do not really want but you have to.
Like on GW2 when they said "no grindy games", and the game started fine, easy enough to reach what you wanted... but as people reached the end-game ASAP... then there was massive complains about the endgame, so in reply the company did one incredible raise of the grind bar.
Grinding is just playing MMOs when they're not fun. People who love their jobs don't say they're going off to the daily grind when they leave for work.
Yes, people who play more or have played longer have an advantage. These games aren't arena shooters where everyone starts off each match on the same level. If you think having any advantage whatsoever is inherently unfair then you're playing the wrong genre. Playing a game with character progression and whining that someone has progressed further than you is ridiculous. The thing that matters isn't the advantage but where it comes from. If it's based on time grinding stuff than everyone can get to the same level in the end. If it's based on purchasing power than some people will have a permanent advantage.
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Im no longer a teenager with tons more time than money. I can certainly afford to P2W most games. I still totally believe P2W is wrong and cheating. I would certainly never dedicate tens of thousands of hours of my life for a chance at being the best breaststroke swimmer in the world but it's that dedication that gains the respect of the world every 4 years. If someone could spend a million dollars to buy a device to catch up... That might be fun for the purchaser but would certainly cheapen the achievement.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All this obsession about "win" has created the term "grind". Mmorpg players used to play for the challenge, the reward, the fun; they(we) don't recognize winning as a concept in a mmorpg.. In other games suited to have a win condition sure, but a mmorpg should not be about winning. The genre is full of players who are not mmorpg players, and as a result there are hardly any real mmorpgs left, they are just still being labelled as such.
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Think of it like the Olypmics. If you want to win a medal you have to spent ridiculous amount of money.
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Grind on its own is stupid. But better than pay to win. Million times better. See EVE? No amount of paying will make you win in the long run. Not even cheating with devs helped those guys win. No skill = inevitable loss.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Think of it like the Olypmics. If you want to win a medal you have to spent ridiculous amount of money.
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Interesting how most real life analogies backfire in these P2W discussions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So quitting a job, your duties and neglecting your family in order to play video games is viable option but getting a better job, spent time with your family and have other hobbies is not...?
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Think of it like the Olypmics. If you want to win a medal you have to spent ridiculous amount of money.
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Interesting how most real life analogies backfire in these P2W discussions.
Except it's not necessarily true. My cousin competed in London for Judo. His dojo costs $30 a month.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Think of it like the Olypmics. If you want to win a medal you have to spent ridiculous amount of money.
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Interesting how most real life analogies backfire in these P2W discussions.
Because most rebuttals focus on out of game experience. P2W is all about in game advantages paid for. P2W is more akin to my out of shape ass paying cash to be placed at 95 meters in in of 100 meter race.
The money for entry is a given that you must have a system and own the game as a baseline which is akin to the trainers and etc.
Players that invest the time to grind and actually play the game have every right to any advantage the game may provide them within the rules.
Whipping out the credit card undermines the entire genre.
Let's play a game. We shall call it "The Being a Grownup Game". Companies are not doing this out of charity. They need to make money in order to play for their expenses. Now, we have too many players bitching and moaning about every little issue. One of the issues is cost.
Some feel entitled to having a game for free. Some companies have responded to that but part of the response it adding a shop to purchase items for the game. It is a reality. Grownups know this. Children, even adult children, will complain and say stuff like it "undermines the entire game".
Let's play chess. I pay the tournament organizer $200 because they need help paying the rent. If I didn't there would be no tournament. In consideration for my donation I get an extra queen.
Nah... the game has not been undermined at all.
The game of chess is explicitly designed around having a level playing field for purposes of competitive PVP. Most MMORPGs are explicitly designed around not having a level playing field. In most games, you should figure that out at most a few minutes into the game, when you reach level 2 and are suddenly stronger than you were at level 1. Giving everyone time to level up tends to exacerbate that problem, not fix it, as there are few MMORPGs where more than a tiny handful of players will eventually be at the level cap and decked out in the best gear available in the game.
That people at level 2 are stronger than those at level 1 is a feature, not a problem. You don't get to have character progression and a level playing field at the same time. You're acting like any advantage is a bad thing when talking about MMOs. Advantages are why many of us play these games, not because of how they place us above others but rather because that they exist means that character progression does too. If you can't accept that a player who started at launch is going to have an advantage over a newbie, find another genre because the idea that it is the advantages which are the problem in MMOs rather than how players can get them is plain stupid.
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Think of it like the Olypmics. If you want to win a medal you have to spent ridiculous amount of money.
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Interesting how most real life analogies backfire in these P2W discussions.
Because most rebuttals focus on out of game experience. P2W is all about in game advantages paid for. P2W is more akin to my out of shape ass paying cash to be placed at 95 meters in in of 100 meter race.
The money for entry is a given that you must have a system and own the game as a baseline which is akin to the trainers and etc.
Good point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
olympic...u grind in a healthy way......computer games..u grind, sitting all day, your eyes will damaged as well by the monitor...
i prefer pay to win. it advocate healthy life, get a job, be good at life and game
If you pay to win, you can't claim to be "good at game". You can't even claim to be good at life, because you're ethos clearly suggests that you'd rather pay your way to success than actually achieve it with hard work.
olympic...u grind in a healthy way......computer games..u grind, sitting all day, your eyes will damaged as well by the monitor...
i prefer pay to win. it advocate healthy life, get a job, be good at life and game
If you pay to win, you can't claim to be "good at game". You can't even claim to be good at life, because you're ethos clearly suggests that you'd rather pay your way to success than actually achieve it with hard work.
i can claim i got at game if i pawned your character with my op p2w weapon set.....hahah
what u mean hard work...sitting all day infront computer...?
olympic...u grind in a healthy way......computer games..u grind, sitting all day, your eyes will damaged as well by the monitor...
i prefer pay to win. it advocate healthy life, get a job, be good at life and game
If you pay to win, you can't claim to be "good at game". You can't even claim to be good at life, because you're ethos clearly suggests that you'd rather pay your way to success than actually achieve it with hard work.
i can claim i got at game if i pawned your character with my op p2w weapon set.....hahah
what u mean hard work...sitting all day infront computer...?
No, you can't. You can claim you purchased gear that allowed you to pwn other players without having to put any effort in. That doesn't make you good at the game though... "hahah".
If that's what it takes. The greatest maths problems haven't been solved by people running around lots, have they? Einstein didn't create his theories of general or special relativity on a building yard, did he? Every game you play, ever piece of technology you own, is at one point or another the product of thousands of people "sitting all day infront computer"
People remember skyforge when it started? There was a lot complain that it didn't have a grind. People was upset. Even way there is no right amount of grind in a MMO in general. MMO are just going to have a group of people unhappy all the time.
olympic...u grind in a healthy way......computer games..u grind, sitting all day, your eyes will damaged as well by the monitor...
i prefer pay to win. it advocate healthy life, get a job, be good at life and game
The eye thing is a bit silly to be honest and if you set up your stuff properly you have much less strain on your eyes. Glare and constant movement of your head between a down and upward position also can hurt your eyes. There are some people (like me) that have had no real problems and I confuse my doctors cuz my eyes have gotten better over the years.
Think of it like the Olympics. If you want to win a medal you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time in practice.
Im no longer a teenager with tons more time than money. I can certainly afford to P2W most games. I still totally believe P2W is wrong and cheating. I would certainly never dedicate tens of thousands of hours of my life for a chance at being the best breaststroke swimmer in the world but it's that dedication that gains the respect of the world every 4 years. If someone could spend a million dollars to buy a device to catch up... That might be fun for the purchaser but would certainly cheapen the achievement.
To do all of that in a sport you don't much like in the first place would be insane. If you love the sport, the work to get better at it isn't nearly so miserable. And that, really, is what I'm asking of games: make the content interesting, not just something stupid to grind through.
People remember skyforge when it started? There was a lot complain that it didn't have a grind. People was upset. Even way there is no right amount of grind in a MMO in general. MMO are just going to have a group of people unhappy all the time.
That's just a case of different people want different things.
MMORPGs are turning into P2W or Doo Doo In A Bucket 2W. This is why many gamers just go play MOBAs, FPS or offline single/multi-player games.
Being tethered to your PC 24/7 isn't a skill nor is swiping your disposable income.
Playing a game and being good at it, or being learned at it is a lost concept. These things are what helped create the social communities. Trying to slay the dragon with friends, friends introducing a new friend to a game world and showing them around and sharing info.
Most of the things wrong with the genre are self inflicted by the developers and publishers trying to min/max revenue. The problem with that is when the min/maxers realize they can make more money making shittier games for mobile or VR Goggles.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
So....according to the OP....actually playing the game is worse than paying to accelerate getting to the spot you want to play at? Either way, you'll end up grinding. Sure, people with more time will usually edge out those who do not in a 'leveled playing field' (field where you can't bypass advancement via money). Its like saying its a waste of time playing single player rpgs because you have to level in them. Could you cheat in those? Sure. However, that's only affecting yourself. When you decide to engage in a field where others exist, you should be abiding by the rules there, not having the rules tailor to you. Its like being new on a job, you accept how they do things or dont and quit/get fired. Would employers love employees paying them for advancement? Sure, if it was legal. And just like things in game, that happens illegally. People float to easier routes, not for the purity of it but because its just easier and people are lazy/smart (take your pick). Its exactly like companies too, prime example being alpha/beta tests. Companies used to go out of their way to get people to test their stuff, but after the past few years and player desperation, they can get paid for people testing their stuff.
So, sure people who buy into the p2w schemes are "saving themselves" time, but that's because 1) they dont know how to use their time wisely and 2) they are just down right impatient.
So, sure people who buy into the p2w schemes are "saving themselves" time, but that's because 1) they dont know how to use their time wisely and 2) they are just down right impatient.
Broad brush, missed a spot.
3) The absorbant time gates are put in place to "encourage" convenience purchases and pad game stickiness metrics.
It's kinda funny when folks assume they're outsmarting the developers and publishers (who make and profit from the game) with how they're masterfully managing their time to drone about in a game when they're serving as padding for a metric.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Comments
At the end the gameplay loop needs to backup the grind otherwise you are not playing the game and having fun as you grind for stuff, you are forcefully play through things you do not really want but you have to.
Like on GW2 when they said "no grindy games", and the game started fine, easy enough to reach what you wanted... but as people reached the end-game ASAP... then there was massive complains about the endgame, so in reply the company did one incredible raise of the grind bar.
Yes, people who play more or have played longer have an advantage. These games aren't arena shooters where everyone starts off each match on the same level. If you think having any advantage whatsoever is inherently unfair then you're playing the wrong genre. Playing a game with character progression and whining that someone has progressed further than you is ridiculous. The thing that matters isn't the advantage but where it comes from. If it's based on time grinding stuff than everyone can get to the same level in the end. If it's based on purchasing power than some people will have a permanent advantage.
Im no longer a teenager with tons more time than money. I can certainly afford to P2W most games. I still totally believe P2W is wrong and cheating. I would certainly never dedicate tens of thousands of hours of my life for a chance at being the best breaststroke swimmer in the world but it's that dedication that gains the respect of the world every 4 years. If someone could spend a million dollars to buy a device to catch up... That might be fun for the purchaser but would certainly cheapen the achievement.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Just training hard and/or talent get you only as far. Top level competition requires the best possible condition you may get - nutrition supplements, coaches, equipment, etc. etc., and those aren't free, they cost a lot.
Level of your engagement scales with money you have to invest to keep you competitive, video games are no exception.
Grind on its own is stupid. But better than pay to win. Million times better. See EVE? No amount of paying will make you win in the long run. Not even cheating with devs helped those guys win. No skill = inevitable loss.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Weird perception of life you have there...
And often the top players are actually no life grinders.
Basically you can either pay or grind.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The money for entry is a given that you must have a system and own the game as a baseline which is akin to the trainers and etc.
If you can't accept that a player who started at launch is going to have an advantage over a newbie, find another genre because the idea that it is the advantages which are the problem in MMOs rather than how players can get them is plain stupid.
i prefer pay to win. it advocate healthy life, get a job, be good at life and game
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
what u mean hard work...sitting all day infront computer...?
If that's what it takes. The greatest maths problems haven't been solved by people running around lots, have they? Einstein didn't create his theories of general or special relativity on a building yard, did he? Every game you play, ever piece of technology you own, is at one point or another the product of thousands of people "sitting all day infront computer"
Being tethered to your PC 24/7 isn't a skill nor is swiping your disposable income.
Playing a game and being good at it, or being learned at it is a lost concept. These things are what helped create the social communities. Trying to slay the dragon with friends, friends introducing a new friend to a game world and showing them around and sharing info.
Most of the things wrong with the genre are self inflicted by the developers and publishers trying to min/max revenue. The problem with that is when the min/maxers realize they can make more money making shittier games for mobile or VR Goggles.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So, sure people who buy into the p2w schemes are "saving themselves" time, but that's because 1) they dont know how to use their time wisely and 2) they are just down right impatient.
3) The absorbant time gates are put in place to "encourage" convenience purchases and pad game stickiness metrics.
It's kinda funny when folks assume they're outsmarting the developers and publishers (who make and profit from the game) with how they're masterfully managing their time to drone about in a game when they're serving as padding for a metric.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯