EQ2 should have been the example since it was released before WOW and carried more of the old school approach on release than WOW did.
Some of what people consider 'old school' designs were tech limitations. Since this is the 21st century and not the 20th we should meld the sensibilities of the 'old school' philosophy with modern technology. Not the other way around.
This thread has nothing to do with tech limitations, and is about how group content has changed.
This has to do with simplifying the combat mechanics to make them easier, and require no coordination/communication.
Really, very little of old school vs new school has to do with tech limitations. It has to do with the roots of the genre. "Old School" tends to be much more DnD like, it was all about character progression, with class strengths and weaknesses and teamwork mattering, combat being more turn based. "New School" has stripped away the roots. Character progression has become an inconvenience rather than the entire point. RPG combat has been replaced by more actiony combat. Teamwork has been reduced to pure trinity, and in some places even that is stripped away.
So a group finder is not a tech limitation that could not be made in old school games? Because it couldn't. That is a new school design that over came a tech limitation of waiting around for hours spamming chat looking for a healer to run a dungeon.
Lack of group finder, to me, doesn't define old school at all. Yes, if developers had the option back then they would put it in.
You could argue it had the effect of simplifying group mechanics, but I don't blame it for that.
Group finder is a convenience, rather than a design shift.
What I KNOW were limitations was netcode, chat mechanics, server stability, LFG ability, crafting mechanics, pathing, A.I. and scripting. I have many years and many games on my resume. Not just a player's perspective
Crafting mechanics? SWG had arguably the best crafting mechanics ever. The only game with remotely complex crafting mechanics that I can think of in the last 5 years is FFXIV. Most games use gather, click, combine. I would say WoW is the poster child for new school crafting, and its the simplest system on the market.
Chat mechanics? Other than voice integration, things havent progressed past chat channels and tells like EQ had in 1999.
I havent seen any indication that pathing and AI have gotten any better. I know mob ranges have gotten a shit ton smaller since EQ. Im sure there is more technology to do this, but 'new school' games tend to cluster all their mobs in the same area and they have rather dumb AI. They dont even do things like run at low health.
Server stability? Sure, EQ's zones were definitely a tech limitation. But zoning isnt a new school vs old school thing, almost everyone would prefer seamless if given the option. Maybe game areas can hold more people now than in the past, but games like Rift show that that isnt often the case.
Scripting was an obvious limitation in 1999, but its an old school thing all the same. EQ's PoP raids were scripted and became the basis for WoW's raids.
Outside of maybe group finder, all of the things you have listed are things that would have been right at home in EQ1 and not changed its feel at all
When most people talk old school vs new school, we are talking group focused, slow leveling (more focus on journey, less at max level). Basically more D&D and less Diablo.
Another point i want to make.. i support vanila WoW servers yet i dont play them because i couldnt stand the thought of playing WoW anymore without transmog or the freedom to swap specs when i felt like it. I dont live in the past, but that doesnt mean im happy with how games are being made in the 21st century.
Someone that got my Topic right. Particularly the last part when you talk about Transmog in WoW, something that could easily be implemented in a modern Old School game together with Group Finder, without ruining the game identity. That's exactly what I mean when people don't understand what the Old School concept is about. They regurgitate the same old tired cliche', which are quite outdated and irritating.
I think plenty of games get the Old School concept and we have never really had a shortage of them. To think otherwise is just admitting you did not like the games that are available.
FFXIV certainly has some old school in it, but that pretty quickly evaporates at max level.
It is not a superiority complex it is a matter of looking at the industry from a different perspective. You are a player. I am a designer. Different perspectives given the different positions within the market. Nothing more.
It's fine, you can look at it in a different way, but that doesn't mean that's the right way. Best game designers were players before, the best entrepreneurs are usually school drop outs, these are the innovators and the trend makers. Just because you work in the Industry doesn't make you automatically a Guru....the Industry got it wrong so many times and not only in the MMO branch. Let's just stick with our opinions, and let's avoid passing our opinions as facts. That's all I am saying.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
What the OP is describing is trinity gameplay vs oldschool gameplay. But ESO is not realy an example of trinity gameplay. ESO,GW2 are more similiar to oldschool tactics then the new ones. Archeage is another game that adopted oldschool tactics. The difference is now the tank just draws aggro and the healer heals the tank and the dps does damage. There is no tactics in trinity games that go outside of this simple process. ESO and GW2 have much more involved then simply drawing aggro and healing.
Played several "old school" games that were not fun. Played several "old school" games that were fun.
Played several "new school" games that were not fun. Played several "new school" games that were fun.
Fun is the decision point.
All the fapping about old vs. new is boring.
I agree mostly with you. I know many people can't stand Old School and I am perfectly fine with it. Though that wasn't the point of my OP
True, the title of the thread says Old vs New, but it wasn't intended as a competition between the 2 genres. Its purpose its to point out that is not nostalgia that make people love Old School games, it is the radically different design, and Old School design is still perfectly valid even if it's not mainstream.
I wasn't implying that Old School is better than New school, I suggest you read my OP thoroughly.
Ok lads, since I keep reading comments from people not really understanding what Old School is and what it stands for, I decided to make a thread about the subject, hoping to shed some light on the subject. There are so many differences between Old School and New School, but in this thread I am gonna focus on Group Dynamics.
To make it easier to understand I will use WoW as my guinea pig. Why WoW? Because it is the only game that in its lifetime provided both an Old School and a New School experience in different periods in time. WoW is the game that virtually killed Old School and it did it within its own game. The shift from Old School to New School in WoW happened with the expansion WOTLK I will describe a typical run of an Hellfire Dungeons, which is a BC Dungeon, but that's the point, it will make it easier to understand the differences between the before and the after.
Typical group run in a Dungeon before WOTLK (Old School) Average run time 45-60 minutes: 1) [Buff up] 2) [Pre-Pull] Hunter set traps in front of a couple of mobs in order to root them. 3) [Pulling] Rogue would stealth behind a mob and immobilize it, starting the pull. 3) [After-Pull] Mages would sheep one mob, Warlock would charm another. 4) [Engage] Tank would attack the only mob still not immobilized. 5) [Debuff and DPS] Player would cast Debuff before starting DPSing. 6) [Sustained CC] CC Classes keep refreshing their spell in order to keep mobs immobilized, so the group can kill the mobs 1 by 1. 7) [Rest/Recover] After killing the group of mobs, the Player Group would probably rest before engaging another pack of mobs, as regeneration was slower than today, Mana management skills were important those days. 8) Rinse and repeat. Note: If CC players weren't good or just slacking the group would wipe.
Typical group run in a dungeon after WOTLK (New School) - Average run time 15-20 minutes: 1) [Buff up] 2) [Engage] Tank runs into a pack of mobs, drop his Area Taunt and Area Damage to keep ALL mobs glued to him. 3) [DPS Overkill] All DPS classes cast their best AOE on the pack of mobs surrounding the Tank. 4) Rinse and repeat. Note: No Rest is usually required as regeneration is pretty fast, also use of CC is generally redundant except maybe for the hardest Raids.
So lads, when people claim they wanna play an Old School game because they think they are better, they are not saying that because they have a pair of rose tinted glasses on, or because they have nostalgia of that game, like most people suggest (which I find slightly insulting). There is really a substantial difference between Old School and New School Group Dynamics (but also in other areas). Of course some prefer one style rather than the other, but please refrain from saying that people that like Old School games are just nostalgic. Because I can assure you it is not the case. We just love that kind of play-style that unfortunately can be found only on 13 y/o games like EQ/AC/ DAOC or some WoW Vanilla Servers. It's not that we love those game, we like their mechanics which is so completely different from modern MMOs, which some of us find more engaging and challenging than modern MMOs.
To me, the old school style sounds overly regimented and boring. Like it's artificially elongating a simple encounter. I mean, the new school approach is simply more fun and effective. Unless you're into squad based tactics, but why aren't you in military or in police dept then?
I am for roles, but tank role is simply more tactile when you're nigh invulnerable. Healer has to put out his best effort too. DPS players feel awesome because of "Horrid Wilting -> DEAD" as opposed to going "Magic Missile -> Dead" "Magic Missile -> Dead". I'd agree that the supports of various kinds are lacking in today's mmorpgs, but the answer is not to regress back to the prehistoric game design. A game design that evolved for a reason.
Really, modern playstyle benefits everyone this way or another, with a notable exception of people stuck in the past.
Trinity gameplay just makes it very simple. It might be better for casual players who do not want anything to think about before entering combat. The tank only has to think about drawing aggro. The healer only has to think about healing. Its very simple gameplay and it works for some people. But players who want to actually think before they fight its crappy and pigenhole gameplay.
Dedicated Puller: Doesn't pull in right order/Doesn't FD split/Doesn't see pather...
Everyone dies
Actually that may only partially be true. depends on how many came and if you had an Enchanter/Bard that was on top of mezing, a group that knew not to break it and a tank that knew how to taunt enough before breaking it once prior targets had been dealt with.
It's not that the old school was better or more fun but it is more complicated and requires more skill/decision making from players.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
It actually really shines when you do large group PVP using voice comms. The whole trinity thing goes out the window when you're in a fluid environment playing against other humans.
People have roles within those groups including CC, scouting, pulling, healing, and even tanking - it's amazing actually how crowds of humans will go after the heavy armored guy daring them to lol.
It's a very social experience with organic down-time for socializing while you wait for them to come or you sneak around trying to hit them where they're not expecting you.
But once the fight starts, you fight. You certainly do not ever, under any circumstances, sit down in the middle of a fight to regen magicka and talk about the weather
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
I don't think anyone has told him about the importance of blocks, interrupts, escapes and dodges
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
Yes.
Don't believe you have. CC is very much a part of ESO. So is situational skills and spells.
Comments
You could argue it had the effect of simplifying group mechanics, but I don't blame it for that.
Group finder is a convenience, rather than a design shift.
Crafting mechanics? SWG had arguably the best crafting mechanics ever. The only game with remotely complex crafting mechanics that I can think of in the last 5 years is FFXIV. Most games use gather, click, combine. I would say WoW is the poster child for new school crafting, and its the simplest system on the market.
Chat mechanics? Other than voice integration, things havent progressed past chat channels and tells like EQ had in 1999.
I havent seen any indication that pathing and AI have gotten any better. I know mob ranges have gotten a shit ton smaller since EQ. Im sure there is more technology to do this, but 'new school' games tend to cluster all their mobs in the same area and they have rather dumb AI. They dont even do things like run at low health.
Server stability? Sure, EQ's zones were definitely a tech limitation. But zoning isnt a new school vs old school thing, almost everyone would prefer seamless if given the option. Maybe game areas can hold more people now than in the past, but games like Rift show that that isnt often the case.
Scripting was an obvious limitation in 1999, but its an old school thing all the same. EQ's PoP raids were scripted and became the basis for WoW's raids.
Outside of maybe group finder, all of the things you have listed are things that would have been right at home in EQ1 and not changed its feel at all
When most people talk old school vs new school, we are talking group focused, slow leveling (more focus on journey, less at max level). Basically more D&D and less Diablo.
Best game designers were players before, the best entrepreneurs are usually school drop outs, these are the innovators and the trend makers.
Just because you work in the Industry doesn't make you automatically a Guru....the Industry got it wrong so many times and not only in the MMO branch.
Let's just stick with our opinions, and let's avoid passing our opinions as facts.
That's all I am saying.
Played several "old school" games that were not fun. Played several "old school" games that were fun.
Played several "new school" games that were not fun. Played several "new school" games that were fun.
Fun is the decision point.
All the fapping about old vs. new is boring.
~~ postlarval ~~
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
~~ postlarval ~~
I know many people can't stand Old School and I am perfectly fine with it.
Though that wasn't the point of my OP
True, the title of the thread says Old vs New, but it wasn't intended as a competition between the 2 genres.
Its purpose its to point out that is not nostalgia that make people love Old School games, it is the radically different design, and Old School design is still perfectly valid even if it's not mainstream.
I wasn't implying that Old School is better than New school, I suggest you read my OP thoroughly.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Dedicated Puller: Doesn't pull in right order/Doesn't FD split/Doesn't see pather...
Everyone dies
Actually that may only partially be true. depends on how many came and if you had an Enchanter/Bard that was on top of mezing, a group that knew not to break it and a tank that knew how to taunt enough before breaking it once prior targets had been dealt with.
It's not that the old school was better or more fun but it is more complicated and requires more skill/decision making from players.
People have roles within those groups including CC, scouting, pulling, healing, and even tanking - it's amazing actually how crowds of humans will go after the heavy armored guy daring them to lol.
It's a very social experience with organic down-time for socializing while you wait for them to come or you sneak around trying to hit them where they're not expecting you.
But once the fight starts, you fight. You certainly do not ever, under any circumstances, sit down in the middle of a fight to regen magicka and talk about the weather
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Games today are so mind numbing simple.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
My reply was to the steaming pile of shit that came after it.
~~ postlarval ~~
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
They should make derailing threads a competitive sport.
No doubt MMORPG.com community would sweep all accolades.