I like games where you can efficiently level through dungeons (or dungeon-like content) and PvP since those are may favorite things to do. The whole grind or quest thing is just obnoxious to me.
Fun the first time, chore after that. The problem of most MMORPGs, be they modern or "old school", is that the replay value through leveling is very low and tabling on the player's tolerance for repetition. We need a really dynamic world to solve that problem.
What EQNext promised was my alting dream. I guess besides that the only time I enjoyed level alts as much or even more was in SWTOR.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
It really depends on whether the game has enough content for the leveling process and whether that content is interesting. I'm okay with doing a bunch of simple quests once each that give you a lot of variety and keep you moving around. I'm not okay with kill 10 rats giving way to kill 100 rats before you're high enough level to move on.
I disagree. Guild Wars 2 has tons of content. Rift has tons of content. WoW has tons of content. ESO has tons of content. I still dont like the level grind. ESO did the right thing by making the world all scale so I can go anywhere. But the problem is, in PvP I am still vastly weak to be of any use unless I grind the PvE grind.
Progression is one thing, such as skills/abilities/spells, but when I have spells and go into PvP to be one shot that not fun.
level grind is boring. I want to play. I dont want to level grind to play.
At its best, leveling is something that happens in the background as you play the game without you having to worry about it too much. You bring PVP into the mix, but level grinding and PVP really don't mix.
So why NEED levels if its just something in the background? thats my whole point. If most of Leveling consist of some sort of grind to get from point A---to---Z then its a levelgate and nothing more. You can still do that same A---to---Z or in whatever order you want in a leveless system. If its just something in the background what purpose does it serve, especially as a "Requirement" to play anything. Doesnt have to just be PvP. Can be PvE as well. Why cant I do Claw of Jormag as a level 20 character, for instance? I am experienced with the fight, and understand how to play the game. Why do I need to wait 60 more levels just to do something I like?
Levels provide the devs with a tool to show you how the character has done so.
Maybe there is a better answer to character levels, I don't know, but abolishing them without that answer would be to abolish what makes an RPG an RPG to many people.
I like to have my cake and eat it too, so I'll go either way for as long as I'm entertained.
again this is not true. People know progress at max level in WoW for example. Two players same level, but different tiers of progression. Levels have nothing to do with it. Its an old illusion from the old days of MMOs. Its meaningless now once you realize that it serves no real purpose than to slow and burn out players before they do content that actually take time to develop.
Well guess what. Take out most of that Level grind stuff, which becomes useless as time goes on, and the resources that went into that actually can be used for more of the longer developed content.
Its perfectly fine to abolish Level grind, because as I have said many times here already, many MMOs have large player base that are MAX LEVEL, meaning they not leveling anymore. So what are they doing if Levels are the only way to physically measure progression? oh thats right,,, they progressing the content not a fake level number grind that makes most content useless and meaningless and simply gates players.
Again its not needed. There are other ways and better ways for progress. Guild Wars 2 was on the right track with downward level scaling, but ESO beat them to it all together. Full level scaling, up and down. Next step is get rid of levels all together. Let the world be the progress and the story and the skills and gear and trophies you collect, and the pvp defense be all your progression. Not some useless Levelgate.
When I played WoW's first expansion which increased the level cap to 70, I did the grind as most did. But when I got to max level I looked back to realize that all those old level 60 content that at one point were important, are now made meaningless due to being out leveled content. all from just increasing and adding more levels, did I realize just how damaging level grind is. it makes lower level content less valued.
Gear levels are just another kind of leveling. Don't kid yourself. Your still fighting the same mobs the same way for the same reason. To get stronger.
Same with skills. They are all levels.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I like games where you can efficiently level through dungeons (or dungeon-like content) and PvP since those are may favorite things to do. The whole grind or quest thing is just obnoxious to me.
i hate dungeon matchmaking. i want open world mobs pure organic grind
The question you need to consider before answering is: "what is the purpose of leveling in the game"?
If it just is a 3 weeks tutorial then it certainly is a boring grind and a huge waste of content and it would be better if they skipped the levels and put all the content from leveling up into the actual game instead. Whenever some say "the game start at the endgame" you know you are in for a boring pointless grind.
If leveling really is the point of the game leveling can be fun.
Gear levels are just another kind of leveling. Don't kid yourself. Your still fighting the same mobs the same way for the same reason. To get stronger.
Same with skills. They are all levels.
That is true, but the difference between a lvl 1 and a max level character is usually so incredible much more then it is between a max level char in the worst armor for her level and the best.
So while the grind is rather the same leveling still is somewhat worse.
For some reason though do I like EQ 1 & 2s AAs, since you often get them for doing something the first time they feel far less grindy then lvls, gear or skills and I wouldn't mind a game that used AAs instead of levels (or had a XP system that encourages people to do new things instead of grinding some easy spots).
Generally though is my largest beefs with levels the huge powergap that usually comes with them, it makes PvP rather boring and getting a group far harder, particularly when I want to group with friends. The mentoring systems many games have never really worked for me.
I think its interesting that in most rpg games the OP's question is not relevant, but it seems to be a key issue for mmos.
Agreed, very few MMORPGs have not had this problem to some extent, which is the nature of the beast, it's the result of trying to stretch content out over months of play, rather than days or weeks. It's a tough balance between creating compelling content vs grind aimed at stretching out playtime. It's not an easy thing to pull off.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It depends on the game. Some games allow you to progress as you play through the content and you just level as you go without really having to pay any special attention to it.
Some inflict heavy grinding on the players and then it becomes the focus of the game. Getting those last few percent of a level so you can access the next area. That's when it becomes a chore.
I don't think levelling is a choice between fun or a chore. It either happens seamlessly as you play the game, or it becomes a chore when you have to grind out the last third of a level before you can move on. If you notice the lack of a level and can't progress until you ding, then it's a chore. I'd say that's a design fault but some MMO's a deliberately grindy.
I enjoy leveling. If a game has a level cap of 60, I feel it should take a long time ( 1 or 2 years? ) to reach that cap. Not several weeks ( 4 or 6 weeks ).
End Game is what you do with that level capped character. I was never a fan of the 24 hour lockout timer on End Game Content ( EGC ), it should be 72 hours. So you are forced to spend some time away from the same content. But people are doing EGC to acquire End Game Loot ( EGL ). If they could hunt their EGL in any EGC, then that would be best I think.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The better the game design the less of a chore it seems. It is an illusion really, sleight of hand to make you think its not a chore. Which is fine by me, just do it well and it is enjoyable.
im a huge fan of quest grinding and mob grinding, im old fashion like that i guess but as long as the games are auto attack/tab targeting/cast times like WoW or Final Fantasy XIV. i find it more enjoyable to lvl grind in a game that is not real-time action combat system.
By "leveling" I mean nothing more than going out into the world and running around among the trees. I don't really care for the mechanic of leveling itself, an when I use that word I really mean something more like "content exploration." For me, the death of a game is repeated content. That's a reason why I wouldn't find a "classic WoW" server to be a very fun experience: I've already done it. Surely, there must be some formula that charts your successively decreasing enjoyment of a thing the more you experience it.
Content progression is where you encounter the breadth and beauty of the world, and here it is quite like art. When I go and listen to the soundtrack of Ironforge or Ashenvale, I am appreciating art. The way that this music comes together with those visuals and that feeling is an artistic feeling.
By "living breathing virtual world," what we really mean is artful world. It is that magic blend of je ne sais quoi that comes together in just the right way and becomes, quite literally, a painting that takes you away despite your not knowing why.
The minute that art is lost, you see a canvas with colors. You see brushstrokes, you see smears, you see technique. And then what is it to you.
End game is always mechanical and rooted in technique. Content exploration is the opportunity for art to be born. An artful MMO makes you feel like your character running around in a virtual world. A mechanical MMO reminds you that it's just a game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe there is a better answer to character levels, I don't know, but abolishing them without that answer would be to abolish what makes an RPG an RPG to many people.
I find that interesting, if only because it is so different than the role players I used to play these RPGs with.
Back in City of Heroes, if you went on the Virtue server, you'd run into some hardcore, serious roleplayers; folks who would clock in 10-14 hour days to textfight and run scenarios all day kind of RPers. Seriously hardcore folk.
And at night, after they were done RPing for most of the day, they speed leveled new characters AFK in speed grind groups to hit the level cap, so they could use these characters in RPing the next day.
It's ironic that people so dedicated to immersion and suspension of disbelief, who would clock in more hours than your powergamers, would stoop to such gimmicks to get the damn leveling out of the way, isn't it?
Because they needed the emotes. They needed the animations. They needed access to costume pieces and effects that you can only gain at higher levels. They needed the ability to set up in Granville or Shadow Shard if the plot required. And they needed to be a "credible" when portraying the kind of personality that needed to appear "credible"; ie, it looks kind of lame if your character is good with rifles and fists, when your main who has been on the server for five years is classed as a tanker, while your other version of him is only represented by a level 1 blaster.
Roleplayers on Virtue worked around a lot of the gamey BS, because, after a certain point, it got in the way of immersion more than it helped. If you're a newbie or someone creating a new main, roleplaying character? You can slowplay the leveling, because it's credible to build in power from the bottom up.
But when you graduate from mere content consumer, to content creator, like roleplayers do, the level progression gets in the way of doing what you want to do efficiently. If you are creating a roleplaying scenario with a shadowy arch adversary, then that arch adversary better be level 50 before you reveal it, or else it'll not be credible.
It just goes to show what the old time RPG folk, who are now extinct in the wild as far as a species in MMORPGs today, understood about mechanics like leveling and strict classing; it transforms the intent from character play to toon play, and is best dispensed with as efficiently as possible so that you can actually use the game in the way that you need to use it.
Role playing games like these, I have found, work better on a skill progression advancement system, where the character is basically a blank slate that can be custom trained in abilities as the need arises. It works better than in a level and class system, where all you are (and all you will ever be) is set in stone before you even enter the game.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The leveling is a simple mechanism for determination of short and long term goals. Without goals any game is pointless. Some people claim they play just for fun. But in fact everybody play for fun. And everybody play for goals. Some players imagine their goals - I will kill these evil mobs - good guy, or I will PK other players - bad guy. Both are completely delusional. Most players want adequate rewards for the time they spent in the game. The main difference among the leveling of a character or skills and the leveling of gear is in general the risk. To level the character usually involves less risk - lack of direct RNG element. So to claim fun or chore - is a nonsense.
I don't think leveling work as a goal, it did back in the Everquest era but now it is more of a rather simple but long tutorial that take you 3 weeks or so.
You can't fail at leveling, as you usually can with goals. Playing well makes the process faster but that is it. Now the entire point seems to be teaching you how to play your class acceptable before you get into the endgame.
To be fair did I have far easier determined goals back in the 90s, now there is just getting the next gear upgrade and maybe taking out some enemy players if there is good PvP.
So for me they might as well take the levels away altogether, there is no challenge, it takes up most of the games resources and I will be done with it rather fast. The alternative is to make leveling challenging again.
I don't think leveling work as a goal, it did back in the Everquest era but now it is more of a rather simple but long tutorial that take you 3 weeks or so.
You can't fail at leveling, as you usually can with goals. Playing well makes the process faster but that is it. Now the entire point seems to be teaching you how to play your class acceptable before you get into the endgame.
To be fair did I have far easier determined goals back in the 90s, now there is just getting the next gear upgrade and maybe taking out some enemy players if there is good PvP.
So for me they might as well take the levels away altogether, there is no challenge, it takes up most of the games resources and I will be done with it rather fast. The alternative is to make leveling challenging again.
Leveling is probably the greatest challenge if setup properly. It's a test of attrition and determination. If the leveling process is long and the ability to lose experience is high it can be quite a challenge to reach max level. People who die a lot will not make it to the top. Especially if there is the ability to lose a level. Whether or not said activity is fun or not varies from person to person. I used to enjoy the competition of competing with others to level up quickly. It is quite taxing on a person through. It takes a lot out of you. When I was young it didn't matter that much. As a middle aged person, I don't think my body want's to suffer through the torture required to compete in such a game. Even in my younger years, it was a niche type of competition. Now that everyone has smartphones there and a library of knowledge available to them they find other things to do that interest them.
Depends if you are playing the game while you level, or your leveling to get to the game. Some MMOs end game is where the fun starts. If the game starts at level 1, who cares how long it takes to level.
Depends on the game really. I enjoy leveling and tend to get bored when I hit max level in games. I like to see and feel that my character is getting stronger over time without it being based on gear alone which is what happens at most max level games. When done right the path to max level is a hell of a lot more fun than max level in my own opinion.
1) I think the "vast majority" of the experience in an MMO is spent chasing end game. In all the time I can think of playing MMOs, the time spent leveling is just a very small fraction of the overall time I've spent in any game that I've played any significant duration of. I can think of EQ and WoW expansions with level cap increases, where I spent time in low double-digit hours leveling to cap, and then hundreds of hours at level cap chasing end game.
2) Leveling is actually the most fun part, when I get to do it just for the sake of playing the game, and it flows organically through the entire experience.
3) Leveling is the worst part when I'm stuck in a rut and just trying to power through to get to where my friends are/get to the next content gate/stuck in a hell level/put in as an artificial road block to keep people from progressing "too fast".
4) I'm still waiting for that game where levels don't really exist. One Tamriel is pretty darn close right now.
Shifting from 3 to 2 is what made ESO's One Tamriel a success. FFXIV ~almost~ has #2 with the one-character-can-be-all-classes, if they just had a bit more varied content to level up on.
Comments
Well guess what. Take out most of that Level grind stuff, which becomes useless as time goes on, and the resources that went into that actually can be used for more of the longer developed content.
Its perfectly fine to abolish Level grind, because as I have said many times here already, many MMOs have large player base that are MAX LEVEL, meaning they not leveling anymore. So what are they doing if Levels are the only way to physically measure progression? oh thats right,,, they progressing the content not a fake level number grind that makes most content useless and meaningless and simply gates players.
Again its not needed. There are other ways and better ways for progress. Guild Wars 2 was on the right track with downward level scaling, but ESO beat them to it all together. Full level scaling, up and down. Next step is get rid of levels all together. Let the world be the progress and the story and the skills and gear and trophies you collect, and the pvp defense be all your progression. Not some useless Levelgate.
When I played WoW's first expansion which increased the level cap to 70, I did the grind as most did. But when I got to max level I looked back to realize that all those old level 60 content that at one point were important, are now made meaningless due to being out leveled content. all from just increasing and adding more levels, did I realize just how damaging level grind is. it makes lower level content less valued.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Same with skills. They are all levels.
If it just is a 3 weeks tutorial then it certainly is a boring grind and a huge waste of content and it would be better if they skipped the levels and put all the content from leveling up into the actual game instead. Whenever some say "the game start at the endgame" you know you are in for a boring pointless grind.
If leveling really is the point of the game leveling can be fun.
That is true, but the difference between a lvl 1 and a max level character is usually so incredible much more then it is between a max level char in the worst armor for her level and the best.
So while the grind is rather the same leveling still is somewhat worse.
For some reason though do I like EQ 1 & 2s AAs, since you often get them for doing something the first time they feel far less grindy then lvls, gear or skills and I wouldn't mind a game that used AAs instead of levels (or had a XP system that encourages people to do new things instead of grinding some easy spots).
Generally though is my largest beefs with levels the huge powergap that usually comes with them, it makes PvP rather boring and getting a group far harder, particularly when I want to group with friends. The mentoring systems many games have never really worked for me.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Some inflict heavy grinding on the players and then it becomes the focus of the game. Getting those last few percent of a level so you can access the next area. That's when it becomes a chore.
I don't think levelling is a choice between fun or a chore. It either happens seamlessly as you play the game, or it becomes a chore when you have to grind out the last third of a level before you can move on. If you notice the lack of a level and can't progress until you ding, then it's a chore. I'd say that's a design fault but some MMO's a deliberately grindy.
End Game is what you do with that level capped character. I was never a fan of the 24 hour lockout timer on End Game Content ( EGC ), it should be 72 hours. So you are forced to spend some time away from the same content. But people are doing EGC to acquire End Game Loot ( EGL ). If they could hunt their EGL in any EGC, then that would be best I think.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
pvp?
kill world boss?
what if u can do that from level 1?
pvp? flag systems. with level scaled area. Means if level 100 comes to level 1 area, he will be level 1.
kill world boss? there is level 1 world boss that group of level 1 player can beat (1-20 players.)
profit?
Content progression is where you encounter the breadth and beauty of the world, and here it is quite like art. When I go and listen to the soundtrack of Ironforge or Ashenvale, I am appreciating art. The way that this music comes together with those visuals and that feeling is an artistic feeling.
By "living breathing virtual world," what we really mean is artful world. It is that magic blend of je ne sais quoi that comes together in just the right way and becomes, quite literally, a painting that takes you away despite your not knowing why.
The minute that art is lost, you see a canvas with colors. You see brushstrokes, you see smears, you see technique. And then what is it to you.
End game is always mechanical and rooted in technique. Content exploration is the opportunity for art to be born. An artful MMO makes you feel like your character running around in a virtual world. A mechanical MMO reminds you that it's just a game.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Back in City of Heroes, if you went on the Virtue server, you'd run into some hardcore, serious roleplayers; folks who would clock in 10-14 hour days to textfight and run scenarios all day kind of RPers. Seriously hardcore folk.
And at night, after they were done RPing for most of the day, they speed leveled new characters AFK in speed grind groups to hit the level cap, so they could use these characters in RPing the next day.
It's ironic that people so dedicated to immersion and suspension of disbelief, who would clock in more hours than your powergamers, would stoop to such gimmicks to get the damn leveling out of the way, isn't it?
Because they needed the emotes. They needed the animations. They needed access to costume pieces and effects that you can only gain at higher levels. They needed the ability to set up in Granville or Shadow Shard if the plot required. And they needed to be a "credible" when portraying the kind of personality that needed to appear "credible"; ie, it looks kind of lame if your character is good with rifles and fists, when your main who has been on the server for five years is classed as a tanker, while your other version of him is only represented by a level 1 blaster.
Roleplayers on Virtue worked around a lot of the gamey BS, because, after a certain point, it got in the way of immersion more than it helped. If you're a newbie or someone creating a new main, roleplaying character? You can slowplay the leveling, because it's credible to build in power from the bottom up.
But when you graduate from mere content consumer, to content creator, like roleplayers do, the level progression gets in the way of doing what you want to do efficiently. If you are creating a roleplaying scenario with a shadowy arch adversary, then that arch adversary better be level 50 before you reveal it, or else it'll not be credible.
It just goes to show what the old time RPG folk, who are now extinct in the wild as far as a species in MMORPGs today, understood about mechanics like leveling and strict classing; it transforms the intent from character play to toon play, and is best dispensed with as efficiently as possible so that you can actually use the game in the way that you need to use it.
Role playing games like these, I have found, work better on a skill progression advancement system, where the character is basically a blank slate that can be custom trained in abilities as the need arises. It works better than in a level and class system, where all you are (and all you will ever be) is set in stone before you even enter the game.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You can't fail at leveling, as you usually can with goals. Playing well makes the process faster but that is it. Now the entire point seems to be teaching you how to play your class acceptable before you get into the endgame.
To be fair did I have far easier determined goals back in the 90s, now there is just getting the next gear upgrade and maybe taking out some enemy players if there is good PvP.
So for me they might as well take the levels away altogether, there is no challenge, it takes up most of the games resources and I will be done with it rather fast. The alternative is to make leveling challenging again.
2) Leveling is actually the most fun part, when I get to do it just for the sake of playing the game, and it flows organically through the entire experience.
3) Leveling is the worst part when I'm stuck in a rut and just trying to power through to get to where my friends are/get to the next content gate/stuck in a hell level/put in as an artificial road block to keep people from progressing "too fast".
4) I'm still waiting for that game where levels don't really exist. One Tamriel is pretty darn close right now.
Shifting from 3 to 2 is what made ESO's One Tamriel a success. FFXIV ~almost~ has #2 with the one-character-can-be-all-classes, if they just had a bit more varied content to level up on.