It sure is looking nice. Good for them. I wish CU, Crowfall and Pantheon the best. Success of non-cookie cutter mmorpgs will continue to bring more interest and evolution to the genre (such as super massive world engines using modern server tech).
Items that enhance anything in the shop would be a instant turn off to a lot of players. Despite your argument that it is not pay-to-win, it most definitely is. It just cheapens the game. There are plenty of games out there that do this, go play one of those if that is what you want. I think these developers grasp that it is not a well liked mechanism.
Sorry, mate. That's just not true at all. Western audiences have never really had to deal with actual pay-to-win, which is one of the reasons the term gets misused so often. I lived in Korea for a while, now THEY have pay to win and don't even pretend otherwise.
There's a very specific litmus test for pay-to-win, and it's a really easy one. Does the paying customer get any unfair competitive advantage over another customer of equal advancement. This is in terms of enhancements to skills through bonuses, equipment, ect. If a non-paying player can achieve the exact same competitive capability as a paying player with nothing more than a greater time investment, then the only exchange has been time and it's not pay-to-win.
And though it's not where @laxie was going with it, the point made was on the nose. A player that purchased his way to end-game content, verses a player that worked his way there will virtually always be inferior due to lack of experience. The golf point was dead on, too.
Two guys start golfing. One just goes and hacks around until he starts getting good. The other pays the club pro for lessons (which I actually have done) and spends less time to the point of not being embarrassing. A guy that worked his way there will actually be better than me due to having more practical knowledge, but I paid money to spend less time on the course getting there.
I'm really busy, but I have money. I have friends who have more time, but I want to be able to play with them. VIP/exp bonuses are how companies balance that out.
Well if they offer that in this game, there will be a lot of us that will not play and that will hurt their bottom line and since it is a pvp game, they never have great populations to start with. If I was a developer of a pvp game I certainly would not stab myself in the back offering such services.
Two guys start golfing. One just goes and hacks around until he starts getting good. The other pays the club pro for lessons (which I actually have done) and spends less time to the point of not being embarrassing. A guy that worked his way there will actually be better than me due to having more practical knowledge, but I paid money to spend less time on the course getting there.
I'm really busy, but I have money. I have friends who have more time, but I want to be able to play with them. VIP/exp bonuses are how companies balance that out.
You kind of forgot about your third friend. The one that has money AND time. So he plays as much as friend one but takes lessons like friend 2. Most people don't a shit if you want to spend money to be in the middle of the pack. It's when you end up AHEAD of the average player that it pisses most people off.
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I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
A player who is able to switch his class during the campaign is more powerful than a player who has to constantly play same class whether he's gathering stuff, raiding the enemy, or trying to defend a castle.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
The player who switches between 3 class will need 3 times the gear than the player who only plays 1.
Didn't Crowfall plan to have some rulesets where you can lose gear when you die? If you have to constantly replace your gear, then the switching player won't need much more gear than the player who never switches.
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
A player who is able to switch his class during the campaign is more powerful than a player who has to constantly play same class whether he's gathering stuff, raiding the enemy, or trying to defend a castle.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
The player who switches between 3 class will need 3 times the gear than the player who only plays 1.
Didn't Crowfall plan to have some rulesets where you can lose gear when you die? If you have to constantly replace your gear, then the switching player won't need much more gear than the player who never switches.
What you can lose when you die depends on the ruleset, yes, though dying doesn't automatically mean you will lose stuff. If you die in the middle of a big battle and the enemy doesn't have time to loot you, you won't lose anything except some durability on your gear (unless your gear breaks, of course).
Regardless, you can still only play 1 class at a time. If I don't have VIP and go against someone who does, he won't be any more powerful than I am because he has VIP. He might be more powerful for a host of other reasons, but not because he has VIP. You could even argue that because he spends time playing 3 classes while I focus on 1, I'm better at that 1 than he is at any of his 3 (given equal amount of play time).
Have they updated that date yet? I mean, almost 6 months in, still not in testing of any kind as far as I know. Dont see how a launch by Dec with proper testing is possible right now.
They've been testing for quite a while now... You might check your inbox if you backed the game. If they haven't invited all backers to something yet, I'd be really surprised.
They're not only testing, they're really close to something semi-persistent. I'm kind of expecting the game to go 24/7 in the next couple months. That's me guessing, though. No devs and given any clear indication on that.
They have the PvE EKs up, and personal EKs are online. They have PvP servers online, and should start testing dynamic PvP servers any day. The links between the two and victory conditions will be next in, and that's pretty much the game. Their dynamic campaign system really means they COULD be live and then patch in changes over time. They won't do that, but the fact that they could means a slip on the release date by very much would be pretty surprising.
I backed this at the outset given the experience of the team and their solid track record with the games they worked on previously. This is the difference. Faced with a dilemma, they have the skills to work out a solution. Some of the things of have backed since this, I wish I hadn't and I'm probably out of the backing business as a rule but Artcraft continues to delight. They also get high marks for their communication with backers and fans. Solid, honest communication and crowd-funding should go hand in hand. They get this. Too bad so many others do not.
You kind of forgot about your third friend. The one that has money AND time. So he plays as much as friend one but takes lessons like friend 2. Most people don't a shit if you want to spend money to be in the middle of the pack. It's when you end up AHEAD of the average player that it pisses most people off.
Okay. If you're one of those incredibly rare people, then yeah that would kind of be true in golf. Actually is, because pro players spend a ton of money in getting better at their game. Tiger Woods didn't get where he is just because he spent a lot of time golfing. He hired some of the most expensive coaches on the planet.
Not really true of games, though. Games have artificial ceilings, and that's as far as money will get you. After that's it's pure convenience. I have several gold ships in WoWS. Makes leveling new captains easier and gives me more gold xp. My maxed out captain in a Gearing is no different than the guy who worked his there the hard way. All I paid for is the ability to stay competitive despite having less time to play.
End of the day, convenience just isn't pay-to-win. No matter how much people hate the fact that video game companies need to make money to stay healthy, the standard cash-shop model is very rarely P2W. Play some of those games out of Asia where the best item in the game has to be purchased with real money, and owners of those items destroy anyone without them. THAT's P2W.
It's funny how hard people will reach to make a P2W argument.
I take that back, it's pathetic actually.
"You're P2W!, You're P2W, YOU'RE P2W! EVERYONE IS P2W!!!!!!"
To me its the opposite. To me people will do anything to defend a cash shop game, P2W or not. I take that back, they would literally stop on a bomb to get to a computer to defend it.
Just saying..there are 2 sides to every story. I have very little tolerance for cash shops in games. I would just rather have a sub. Cash shop games take more money to get all the things in the game. Of course you dont have to buy it...but for $15 bucks I get everything. Hell, most cash shop games $15 wont even buy one mount. If that isn't pay to win for the company collecting. I dont know what is.
IDC what argument anyone uses,cash shops are a form of RMT and at one time EVERYONE was on the same boat in agreement RMT is just bad,like really bad for gaming.
The other angle is called TRUST.
How much can you TRUST Crowfall when they use this site and disguised articles to endorse their product?
The very first inkling of DECEPTIVE tactics has me black listing that developer.I would not support Crowfall if it was the best game on earth because i detest illegal marketing practices.
If the Crowfall team wants to come here and endorse themselves,i am ok with that.If this site wants to post an AFFILIATION past or present with the Crowfall team as a BIASED opinion on the game,i am ok with that as well.
However,constantly making Bullshit articles to try and pull the wool over users eyes does NOT sit well with me.The same thing happened with Destiny recently and the "GREAT for the Industry" thread without seeing one minute of the game comes off as blatant deceptive tactics.
Point being,if Crowfall team wants to come here and operate legit ,within the law and market their product,great i will listen up an take notice but right now it is a partnered business dealing trying to BS users here with fake articles.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
My maxed out captain in a Gearing is no different than the guy who worked his there the hard way. All I paid for is the ability to stay competitive despite having less time to play.
I guess I see it in a different light.
In your eyes, you spend 2 hours a week playing a game, you then spend 30$/month to stay competitive with a player who plays 10 hours a week.
The way I see it, a person is playing 2 hours a week, not paying anything. You spend 30$/month to outperform the other 2 hours person. This leaves them with a choice, either pay 30$ as well or be left behind. I know nothing about Crowfall, but many games don't have a clear limit on micro transactions. This means that a 2-hour player with 30$/month is somewhere at the 10-hour level. Guess what, it's the same story all over again. You find out people at that level can either pay even more, being competitive on the next tier, or don't pay and stay at the 10-hour level.
What makes it difficult for me, is not knowing what kind of a player it is. MOBAs have (for the most part) an even playing field. If I get obliterated in League of Legends, I know the player is just better than me. I genuinely respect them, the time they put in and the fact that they are better. It's a learning experience for me.
In games with "boosts" and "time savers", I get beat by a player and don't know. Are they better than me because they have outwitted me, have they invested more time, or have they put in more money? When character level/gear is part of the equation, and money gets you gear/levels easier, it's hard to tell. You then end up with a blend of players, not knowing how they got to that level. This cloud of unknown surrounding the outcomes is, in my case, over 90% of the reason I don't enjoy micro transactions.
You kind of forgot about your third friend. The one that has money AND time. So he plays as much as friend one but takes lessons like friend 2. Most people don't a shit if you want to spend money to be in the middle of the pack. It's when you end up AHEAD of the average player that it pisses most people off.
Okay. If you're one of those incredibly rare people, then yeah that would kind of be true in golf. Actually is, because pro players spend a ton of money in getting better at their game. Tiger Woods didn't get where he is just because he spent a lot of time golfing. He hired some of the most expensive coaches on the planet.
Not really true of games, though. Games have artificial ceilings, and that's as far as money will get you. After that's it's pure convenience. I have several gold ships in WoWS. Makes leveling new captains easier and gives me more gold xp. My maxed out captain in a Gearing is no different than the guy who worked his there the hard way. All I paid for is the ability to stay competitive despite having less time to play.
End of the day, convenience just isn't pay-to-win. No matter how much people hate the fact that video game companies need to make money to stay healthy, the standard cash-shop model is very rarely P2W. Play some of those games out of Asia where the best item in the game has to be purchased with real money, and owners of those items destroy anyone without them. THAT's P2W.
Incredibly RARE? WTF do you actually play any of these games? Why do you think these companies use the P2W cash shops? It's because they make a LOT more money from the WHALES. Its not the average gamer.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I have been waiting so long for a True PVP Game and this seems to be it.
The PVP in a mmo should begin after character creation.
100% agreed. If you are making a PvP game then allow for it from the onset. Build the game around that experience.
I remember playing Lineage 2 and pvping in the starter areas. The game even had low level pvp clans that had wars with other low level clans. I really miss that in games today. Now you have to wait until high level to pvp in most games.
I have never backed a game but this might be my first.
That game was so intense with PvP. I really enjoyed it quite a bit. Until later levels when progression came to a stand still.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
To me its the opposite. To me people will do anything to defend a cash shop game, P2W or not. I take that back, they would literally stop on a bomb to get to a computer to defend it.
Just saying..there are 2 sides to every story. I have very little tolerance for cash shops in games. I would just rather have a sub. Cash shop games take more money to get all the things in the game. Of course you dont have to buy it...but for $15 bucks I get everything. Hell, most cash shop games $15 wont even buy one mount. If that isn't pay to win for the company collecting. I dont know what is.
Absolutely nothing wrong with not liking the model and preferring subscription. That's a completely legitimate position, and I have no problem with it. My only problem is when people call something pay-to-win when it very clearly isn't.
I DO happen to think the cash shop model is a little better, though. It's more profitable because of whales, so it helps the developers. I also think it opens the doors for people to play the game that wouldn't have otherwise. Several of my nieces and nephews like to play WoWS and WoT with me, for instance. It's free, and I get to give them stuff from the cash shop for birthdays, so it's a big win, imo.
My maxed out captain in a Gearing is no different than the guy who worked his there the hard way. All I paid for is the ability to stay competitive despite having less time to play.
I guess I see it in a different light.
In your eyes, you spend 2 hours a week playing a game, you then spend 30$/month to stay competitive with a player who plays 10 hours a week.
The way I see it, a person is playing 2 hours a week, not paying anything. You spend 30$/month to outperform the other 2 hours person. This leaves them with a choice, either pay 30$ as well or be left behind. I know nothing about Crowfall, but many games don't have a clear limit on micro transactions. This means that a 2-hour player with 30$/month is somewhere at the 10-hour level. Guess what, it's the same story all over again. You find out people at that level can either pay even more, being competitive on the next tier, or don't pay and stay at the 10-hour level.
What makes it difficult for me, is not knowing what kind of a player it is. MOBAs have (for the most part) an even playing field. If I get obliterated in League of Legends, I know the player is just better than me. I genuinely respect them, the time they put in and the fact that they are better. It's a learning experience for me.
In games with "boosts" and "time savers", I get beat by a player and don't know. Are they better than me because they have outwitted me, have they invested more time, or have they put in more money? When character level/gear is part of the equation, and money gets you gear/levels easier, it's hard to tell. You then end up with a blend of players, not knowing how they got to that level. This cloud of unknown surrounding the outcomes is, in my case, over 90% of the reason I don't enjoy micro transactions.
Good points. I can definitely see where you're coming from on it, and I think it is a bit of a different situation in MOBAs. Of course, I'm not really much on those sorts of games, so it's hard to have a personal opinion there.
I do think your point about gear is one of the better ones made with respect to this game, though. Because they're going to use this spirit bank concept and your loot chance will change what you bring back, increasing the odds there would have some real impact.
Keep in mind, the devs have never said they were planning on that. It's me purely talking out of my rear and thinking it'd be a good idea. Though, I'm re-thinking that now with your excellent points.
To me its the opposite. To me people will do anything to defend a cash shop game, P2W or not. I take that back, they would literally stop on a bomb to get to a computer to defend it.
Just saying..there are 2 sides to every story. I have very little tolerance for cash shops in games. I would just rather have a sub. Cash shop games take more money to get all the things in the game. Of course you dont have to buy it...but for $15 bucks I get everything. Hell, most cash shop games $15 wont even buy one mount. If that isn't pay to win for the company collecting. I dont know what is.
Absolutely nothing wrong with not liking the model and preferring subscription. That's a completely legitimate position, and I have no problem with it. My only problem is when people call something pay-to-win when it very clearly isn't.
I DO happen to think the cash shop model is a little better, though. It's more profitable because of whales, so it helps the developers. I also think it opens the doors for people to play the game that wouldn't have otherwise. Several of my nieces and nephews like to play WoWS and WoT with me, for instance. It's free, and I get to give them stuff from the cash shop for birthdays, so it's a big win, imo.
It may help people to understand where you're coming from if they knew how much you pumped into Shroud of the Avatar.
I already know know since you gave up the ghost in another thread a while back, so no fibbing.
Incredibly RARE? WTF do you actually play any of these games? Why do you think these companies use the P2W cash shops? It's because they make a LOT more money from the WHALES. Its not the average gamer.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
You misunderstood. I was saying that people who have time and money both are incredibly rare, because one is typically linked inversely to the other.
But yes, whales are really rare. From most companies I've talked to over the years, whales (depending on how they're defined) make up less than a percent of the total player-base. CoE, for instance... They have 10,752 backers according to their Kickstarter page, and obviously I'm not counting those who canceled or who have backed since through their website. That would be 0.14% of the playerbase has contributed $10k. That's pretty statistically insignificant. Besides, it's their money. Folks can throw it away on a game if they want to, and now they no longer have it.
To me its the opposite. To me people will do anything to defend a cash shop game, P2W or not. I take that back, they would literally stop on a bomb to get to a computer to defend it.
Just saying..there are 2 sides to every story. I have very little tolerance for cash shops in games. I would just rather have a sub. Cash shop games take more money to get all the things in the game. Of course you dont have to buy it...but for $15 bucks I get everything. Hell, most cash shop games $15 wont even buy one mount. If that isn't pay to win for the company collecting. I dont know what is.
Absolutely nothing wrong with not liking the model and preferring subscription. That's a completely legitimate position, and I have no problem with it. My only problem is when people call something pay-to-win when it very clearly isn't.
I DO happen to think the cash shop model is a little better, though. It's more profitable because of whales, so it helps the developers. I also think it opens the doors for people to play the game that wouldn't have otherwise. Several of my nieces and nephews like to play WoWS and WoT with me, for instance. It's free, and I get to give them stuff from the cash shop for birthdays, so it's a big win, imo.
It may help people to understand where you're coming from if they knew how much you pumped into Shroud of the Avatar.
I already know know since you gave up the ghost in another thread a while back, so no fibbing.
Incredibly RARE? WTF do you actually play any of these games? Why do you think these companies use the P2W cash shops? It's because they make a LOT more money from the WHALES. Its not the average gamer.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
You misunderstood. I was saying that people who have time and money both are incredibly rare, because one is typically linked inversely to the other.
But yes, whales are really rare. From most companies I've talked to over the years, whales (depending on how they're defined) make up less than a percent of the total player-base. CoE, for instance... They have 10,752 backers according to their Kickstarter page, and obviously I'm not counting those who canceled or who have backed since through their website. That would be 0.14% of the playerbase has contributed $10k. That's pretty statistically insignificant. Besides, it's their money. Folks can throw it away on a game if they want to, and now they no longer have it.
Not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse so I will try one more time.
That "statistically insignificant" portion of the playerbase has accumulated more power than the other 99.86% of the playerbase combined. They did so because they used their money to buy themselves a spot at the top of the mountain. They didn't spend money to join the middle of the pack. ALL of the power in the game is now concentrated in the "statistically insignificant" 0.14% of the playerbase.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Incredibly RARE? WTF do you actually play any of these games? Why do you think these companies use the P2W cash shops? It's because they make a LOT more money from the WHALES. Its not the average gamer.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
You misunderstood. I was saying that people who have time and money both are incredibly rare, because one is typically linked inversely to the other.
But yes, whales are really rare. From most companies I've talked to over the years, whales (depending on how they're defined) make up less than a percent of the total player-base. CoE, for instance... They have 10,752 backers according to their Kickstarter page, and obviously I'm not counting those who canceled or who have backed since through their website. That would be 0.14% of the playerbase has contributed $10k. That's pretty statistically insignificant. Besides, it's their money. Folks can throw it away on a game if they want to, and now they no longer have it.
Not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse so I will try one more time.
That "statistically insignificant" portion of the playerbase has accumulated more power than the other 99.86% of the playerbase combined. They did so because they used their money to buy themselves a spot at the top of the mountain. They didn't spend money to join the middle of the pack. ALL of the power in the game is now concentrated in the "statistically insignificant" 0.14% of the playerbase.
You're drastically over estimating the significance of such "power" in my eyes. While it sucks anyone gets anything without earning it like everyone else. It only goes so far, unless the game is purposefully designed with stats to give those players an unbeatable edge. Which would be a game design suicide.
In your words it seems to imply that said .14% can take on the other 99 percent, there's no way that's the case even with a statistical advantage from bought assets.
Red is arguing from a position of reality, you're completely sensationalizing your argument to make a point about a practice you don't like, that's not a place to argue a grounded debate from. It just makes it worse when you lead in claiming someone else is being obtuse.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Incredibly RARE? WTF do you actually play any of these games? Why do you think these companies use the P2W cash shops? It's because they make a LOT more money from the WHALES. Its not the average gamer.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
You misunderstood. I was saying that people who have time and money both are incredibly rare, because one is typically linked inversely to the other.
But yes, whales are really rare. From most companies I've talked to over the years, whales (depending on how they're defined) make up less than a percent of the total player-base. CoE, for instance... They have 10,752 backers according to their Kickstarter page, and obviously I'm not counting those who canceled or who have backed since through their website. That would be 0.14% of the playerbase has contributed $10k. That's pretty statistically insignificant. Besides, it's their money. Folks can throw it away on a game if they want to, and now they no longer have it.
Not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse so I will try one more time.
That "statistically insignificant" portion of the playerbase has accumulated more power than the other 99.86% of the playerbase combined. They did so because they used their money to buy themselves a spot at the top of the mountain. They didn't spend money to join the middle of the pack. ALL of the power in the game is now concentrated in the "statistically insignificant" 0.14% of the playerbase.
You're drastically over estimating the significance of such "power" in my eyes. While it sucks anyone gets anything without earning it like everyone else. It only goes so far, unless the game is purposefully designed with stats to give those players an unbeatable edge. Which would be a game design suicide.
In your words it seems to imply that said .14% can take on the other 99 percent, there's no way that's the case even with a statistical advantage from bought assets.
Red is arguing from a position of reality, you're completely sensationalizing your argument to make a point about a practice you don't like, that's not a place to argue a grounded debate from. It just makes it worse when you lead in claiming someone else is being obtuse.
This isn't a game of character vs character battles. Its a game of Kingdom vs Kingdom wars and all the Kingdoms are bought and paid for by the whales. Even the people that could "theoretically" challenge the Kings are THEMSELVES whales having spent thousands of their own dollars on the game. Get it yet?
Edit- This is getting too into the weeds of a non-Crowfall game and this was about Crowfall so I will leave it there. Feel free to continue to discuss the P2W CoE stuff in one of those threads.
For the record Crowfall in my opinion (as a backer who has his little keeps and castles waiting) is P2W. It's not over the top and much of it is limited to the less competitive Eternal Kingdoms.
We shall see how things shape up closer to launch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This isn't a game of character vs character battles. Its a game of Kingdom vs Kingdom wars and all the Kingdoms are bought and paid for by the whales. Even the people that could "theoretically" challenge the Kings are THEMSELVES whales having spent thousands of their own dollars on the game. Get it yet?
Edit- This is getting too into the weeds of a non-Crowfall game and this was about Crowfall so I will leave it there. Feel free to continue to discuss the P2W CoE stuff in one of those threads.
For the record Crowfall in my opinion (as a backer who has his little keeps and castles waiting) is P2W. It's not over the top and much of it is limited to the less competitive Eternal Kingdoms.
We shall see how things shape up closer to launch.
As @Distopia said, you're really trying to shape things here to form an argument around what you want, rather than working with the facts as they are. I only rolled into the CoE thing because you brought it up, and I was shooting down your quoted data. I've been talking about CF the entire time.
The fact that whales are a statistically insignificant component of the playerbase happens to be valid in both cases. I'm not sure what benefits they get in CoE, but nothing I've seen them get in CF is in any way really significant.
In fact, your point about CF being kingdom vs kingdom makes it even less significant. Even if CF were P2W, which it's not, then these statistically rare players would have even less impact. I'm not sure what the actual data is, so let's assume some rough figures and pull from what we do have.
KS data is easy to pull, so let's start there. CF's KS campaign finished with 16,936 backers, and highest tiers were 57 @ $1k, 13 @ $2.5k, 10 @ $5k, and 15 @ $10k, for a total of 95 backers over $1k. We'll call those our whales, which make up about 0.6% of the total population (Assuming post-campaign numbers stayed the same, and they probably didn't since non-whales tend to back in greater numbers over time.).
I'm not sure what the total number is, but let's just say CF servers can hold 200 players, then that means there's about one whale per server. Future maps will be larger, but current servers are 9x9 tile maps, which makes for 81 total tiles. Thus, you have about a 10% chance of ever being in the same tile as a whale, assuming you're even online at the same time.
Since this is a kingdom game where the lines of battle exist on multiple fronts at any given time, even if that lone OP whale has a significant impact on the fight in his immediate vicinity(which is significantly less than an entire tile), it's only an impact in HIS immediate vicinity, and the fights elsewhere are more even.
Thus, even if CF were P2W, the impact of whales would be practically irrelevant on any campaign overall. The fact that EKs are personal things that are removed from the actual campaigns where PvP take place, and that I've seen no actual combat advantages to paying customers over non-paying (or non-whale) customers, I don't think there's any way you could actually claim CF is a P2W game in any sense of the phrase. Much less could you claim that being P2W would have any relevant impact on the game even were it true.
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You stay sassy!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Regardless, you can still only play 1 class at a time. If I don't have VIP and go against someone who does, he won't be any more powerful than I am because he has VIP. He might be more powerful for a host of other reasons, but not because he has VIP. You could even argue that because he spends time playing 3 classes while I focus on 1, I'm better at that 1 than he is at any of his 3 (given equal amount of play time).
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
Not really true of games, though. Games have artificial ceilings, and that's as far as money will get you. After that's it's pure convenience. I have several gold ships in WoWS. Makes leveling new captains easier and gives me more gold xp. My maxed out captain in a Gearing is no different than the guy who worked his there the hard way. All I paid for is the ability to stay competitive despite having less time to play.
End of the day, convenience just isn't pay-to-win. No matter how much people hate the fact that video game companies need to make money to stay healthy, the standard cash-shop model is very rarely P2W. Play some of those games out of Asia where the best item in the game has to be purchased with real money, and owners of those items destroy anyone without them. THAT's P2W.
I take that back, it's pathetic actually.
"You're P2W!, You're P2W, YOU'RE P2W! EVERYONE IS P2W!!!!!!"
To me its the opposite. To me people will do anything to defend a cash shop game, P2W or not. I take that back, they would literally stop on a bomb to get to a computer to defend it.
Just saying..there are 2 sides to every story. I have very little tolerance for cash shops in games. I would just rather have a sub. Cash shop games take more money to get all the things in the game. Of course you dont have to buy it...but for $15 bucks I get everything. Hell, most cash shop games $15 wont even buy one mount. If that isn't pay to win for the company collecting. I dont know what is.
The other angle is called TRUST.
How much can you TRUST Crowfall when they use this site and disguised articles to endorse their product?
The very first inkling of DECEPTIVE tactics has me black listing that developer.I would not support Crowfall if it was the best game on earth because i detest illegal marketing practices.
If the Crowfall team wants to come here and endorse themselves,i am ok with that.If this site wants to post an AFFILIATION past or present with the Crowfall team as a BIASED opinion on the game,i am ok with that as well.
However,constantly making Bullshit articles to try and pull the wool over users eyes does NOT sit well with me.The same thing happened with Destiny recently and the "GREAT for the Industry" thread without seeing one minute of the game comes off as blatant deceptive tactics.
Point being,if Crowfall team wants to come here and operate legit ,within the law and market their product,great i will listen up an take notice but right now it is a partnered business dealing trying to BS users here with fake articles.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
In your eyes, you spend 2 hours a week playing a game, you then spend 30$/month to stay competitive with a player who plays 10 hours a week.
The way I see it, a person is playing 2 hours a week, not paying anything. You spend 30$/month to outperform the other 2 hours person. This leaves them with a choice, either pay 30$ as well or be left behind. I know nothing about Crowfall, but many games don't have a clear limit on micro transactions. This means that a 2-hour player with 30$/month is somewhere at the 10-hour level. Guess what, it's the same story all over again. You find out people at that level can either pay even more, being competitive on the next tier, or don't pay and stay at the 10-hour level.
What makes it difficult for me, is not knowing what kind of a player it is. MOBAs have (for the most part) an even playing field. If I get obliterated in League of Legends, I know the player is just better than me. I genuinely respect them, the time they put in and the fact that they are better. It's a learning experience for me.
In games with "boosts" and "time savers", I get beat by a player and don't know. Are they better than me because they have outwitted me, have they invested more time, or have they put in more money? When character level/gear is part of the equation, and money gets you gear/levels easier, it's hard to tell. You then end up with a blend of players, not knowing how they got to that level. This cloud of unknown surrounding the outcomes is, in my case, over 90% of the reason I don't enjoy micro transactions.
Just look at CoE. There are literally somewhere around 16 people that have paid $10,000 or more (upto $40,000) to be virtual Kings. These people have money and time to spare. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of people in that same game that have spent thousands of dollars as well. These aren't paying for convenience. You continue to try to force us to make the false choice that people either have time OR money. Lots of people, including myself have both. As I said, I couldn't give a shit if Joe Schmoe bought some XP potion to stay middle of the pack. Yes its paying for an advantage but not going to change the game for others. Its the ability of the group that can combine those potions with lots of play time that ruin the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I DO happen to think the cash shop model is a little better, though. It's more profitable because of whales, so it helps the developers. I also think it opens the doors for people to play the game that wouldn't have otherwise. Several of my nieces and nephews like to play WoWS and WoT with me, for instance. It's free, and I get to give them stuff from the cash shop for birthdays, so it's a big win, imo.
I do think your point about gear is one of the better ones made with respect to this game, though. Because they're going to use this spirit bank concept and your loot chance will change what you bring back, increasing the odds there would have some real impact.
Keep in mind, the devs have never said they were planning on that. It's me purely talking out of my rear and thinking it'd be a good idea. Though, I'm re-thinking that now with your excellent points.
I already know know since you gave up the ghost in another thread a while back, so no fibbing.
~~ postlarval ~~
But yes, whales are really rare. From most companies I've talked to over the years, whales (depending on how they're defined) make up less than a percent of the total player-base. CoE, for instance... They have 10,752 backers according to their Kickstarter page, and obviously I'm not counting those who canceled or who have backed since through their website. That would be 0.14% of the playerbase has contributed $10k. That's pretty statistically insignificant. Besides, it's their money. Folks can throw it away on a game if they want to, and now they no longer have it.
That "statistically insignificant" portion of the playerbase has accumulated more power than the other 99.86% of the playerbase combined. They did so because they used their money to buy themselves a spot at the top of the mountain. They didn't spend money to join the middle of the pack. ALL of the power in the game is now concentrated in the "statistically insignificant" 0.14% of the playerbase.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In your words it seems to imply that said .14% can take on the other 99 percent, there's no way that's the case even with a statistical advantage from bought assets.
Red is arguing from a position of reality, you're completely sensationalizing your argument to make a point about a practice you don't like, that's not a place to argue a grounded debate from. It just makes it worse when you lead in claiming someone else is being obtuse.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Edit- This is getting too into the weeds of a non-Crowfall game and this was about Crowfall so I will leave it there. Feel free to continue to discuss the P2W CoE stuff in one of those threads.
For the record Crowfall in my opinion (as a backer who has his little keeps and castles waiting) is P2W. It's not over the top and much of it is limited to the less competitive Eternal Kingdoms.
We shall see how things shape up closer to launch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The fact that whales are a statistically insignificant component of the playerbase happens to be valid in both cases. I'm not sure what benefits they get in CoE, but nothing I've seen them get in CF is in any way really significant.
In fact, your point about CF being kingdom vs kingdom makes it even less significant. Even if CF were P2W, which it's not, then these statistically rare players would have even less impact. I'm not sure what the actual data is, so let's assume some rough figures and pull from what we do have.
KS data is easy to pull, so let's start there. CF's KS campaign finished with 16,936 backers, and highest tiers were 57 @ $1k, 13 @ $2.5k, 10 @ $5k, and 15 @ $10k, for a total of 95 backers over $1k. We'll call those our whales, which make up about 0.6% of the total population (Assuming post-campaign numbers stayed the same, and they probably didn't since non-whales tend to back in greater numbers over time.).
I'm not sure what the total number is, but let's just say CF servers can hold 200 players, then that means there's about one whale per server. Future maps will be larger, but current servers are 9x9 tile maps, which makes for 81 total tiles. Thus, you have about a 10% chance of ever being in the same tile as a whale, assuming you're even online at the same time.
Since this is a kingdom game where the lines of battle exist on multiple fronts at any given time, even if that lone OP whale has a significant impact on the fight in his immediate vicinity(which is significantly less than an entire tile), it's only an impact in HIS immediate vicinity, and the fights elsewhere are more even.
Thus, even if CF were P2W, the impact of whales would be practically irrelevant on any campaign overall. The fact that EKs are personal things that are removed from the actual campaigns where PvP take place, and that I've seen no actual combat advantages to paying customers over non-paying (or non-whale) customers, I don't think there's any way you could actually claim CF is a P2W game in any sense of the phrase. Much less could you claim that being P2W would have any relevant impact on the game even were it true.