Story as it has been used in MMORPGs only serves a few basic functions that I've seen.
Lore. Much of the world's backstory is told via NPC's talking or in-game documents. These relate some aspect of a historical event that happened. Generally, the player doesn't directly interact with the Lore; it's used more to establish atmosphere or encourage immersion.
Direction. Quest text is usually used to direct players to adventure areas. These serve to encourage players to visit remote places. There's something big happening over at the Miller's farm. You should go and have a look.
Rewards. Quests are also a way to introduce valuable loot into the game world, and these invariably come with some kind of story, told via the Quest NPCs. These rewards can be Items, Experience, Buffs and Services like fast travel.
Linking. Frequently, the story aspect of the quests link various Rewards together or chaining multiple story tasks together. This is especially true for Items in a set.
I've found that developers tend to write quests in these terms. Rarely, do we see NPCs speak to express joy, sadness or other emotion unless there's some task for the PC buried in there somewhere. Few, if any, are simply there to entertain people, and entertainment is a key element to storytelling. Occasional snippets can be entertaining, but that never seems to be the sole purpose of an in-game story.
This is a great set of points but I particularly liked the idea that developers don't do character building on their NPCs. You're absolutely right, it rarely ever happens, but some of the difficulty comes in the design of the game itself. It's hard to design characters that evolve over time when players are meeting them at different points in time. That's one of the major challenges of making a persistent online game, ensuring that everyone who plays will experience the timeline, in their own timeline.
The alternative is to create a lot of content that will only be consumed by a fraction of the player-base at a time and with the huge price tag MMOs already have, it's not likely to be a feasible or practical consideration for development any time soon. But it is one of the reasons that indie and grassroots studios have had success making games on a small budget. They are designed to almost exclusively promote the player-created experience.
GW2 does this with Living Story.
But also, for them to build an NPC with a story, and a history, they need to control the way the player can interact with them, ensuring that the story gets move forward.
Case in point in GW2, Rylock, goes from a Warrior to a Reverent, and if you jumped into the story later, it make no sense, so they kind of are stuck with stories like that, and needing the players to follow them.
As you said, it's far more difficult then it sounds.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative. I wish a certain indie project called Pantheon would explain their view on this because I couldn't care less about corpse runs or if clerics get thisandthat feature - What matters to me if they understand that the great thing about eq was that it had an open-ended story approach; not story free but free of story driven narrative - Stories build into every part of the game and not just quests and never pushing players through a overdesigned experience.
It doesn't matter that you shoot alone. The facts are that you are in competition with others. There is more than one person there. Therefore it is multiplayer. Multiplayer does not mean playing with others. It means more than one.
You know, you are wrong here - they are called multiPLAYer games, instead crowd games for example. You have to play
Actually the idea of Multi-player games was only that many people could playing the same game at the same time, their was no need or requirement for them to "group" or even work together, only that they could interact with each other if they wanted to.
Case in point, Skyrim is a single player game, as you cannot interact with other players. Elder Scrolls Online is a multi player game, in that you can interact with other players, that dos not mean they need to play with you, or you with them, it just means you can if you want.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
ikcin said: As I said I played with a guild, bigger than yours Did everything you mentioned. I do not expect anyone to be forced for anything. But I expect a multiplayer game, to be multiplayer. Very simple. When I play poker, I do not sit on empty table, till I decide I'm bored to win, and I need some multiplayer experience. I sit and play multiplayer with other people. Is it so hard for you to understand?
My guild had over 500 Members, I highly doubt your guild was bigger. :P
With that said, there were players all around you, if you opted to not play with them, that is your fault, not theirs.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It doesn't matter that you shoot alone. The facts are that you are in competition with others. There is more than one person there. Therefore it is multiplayer. Multiplayer does not mean playing with others. It means more than one.
You know, you are wrong here - they are called multiPLAYer games, instead crowd games for example. You have to play
And you are playing. Never stated or implied you weren't. Not sure where you got that from. You playing against others.
So recap. More than one person playing. You are also playing (not necessarily with them).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And in your basket shooting game you said it was a Match meaning you are competing against others.
Whether you decided to play with others or not is irrelevant. In a multiplayer you can pay with or against others or go on your own. You have the choice. In a single player game you don't.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
You said you write, that is making your own stories with pretend toys.
The essence of roleplaying is to play a part, now I know this is not table top, but roleplaying in MMOs brings them alive in my eyes. Yes follow the narrative, be what they want you to be for that. But the idea that that's all there is, no you can make a game so much more.
Now I assume here that we are in a roleplaying guild, the days of roleplayer servers are dead. So its not just you playing a role it is in conjunction with your guild.
I should point out I am not a big rper in MMO's, but I do enough to add that dimension to it. Use your imagination, it does not have to stop when you are a teenager.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
You said you write, that is making your own stories with pretend toys.
The essence of roleplaying is to play a part, now I know this is not table top, but roleplaying in MMOs brings them alive in my eyes. Yes follow the narrative, be what they want you to be for that. But the idea that that's all there is, no you can make a game so much more.
Now I assume here that we are in a roleplaying guild, the days of roleplayer servers are dead. So its not just you playing a role it is in conjunction with your guild.
I should point out I am not a big rper in MMO's, but I do enough to add that dimension to it. Use your imagination, it does not have to stop when you are a teenager.
Writing fiction is generally an act of communication to an audience, or even creating a product for an audience. It's not really the same as telling a story to yourself. I don't, in fact, write fiction for my own entertainment, because the whole work process makes it less fun that daydreaming, and requires some kind of external purpose to justify it. The activities are also completely opposite in terms of what tools I get and what's under my control. Within a game I tend to find it utterly frustrating to try to tell a story because I have almost no control over the actions of anything within the game. The same applies to roleplaying; I find it very frustrating to try to roleplay because I often don't like what the other player(s) want to do with their characters. That's assuming I even like the character they've created to roleplay with.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
You said you write, that is making your own stories with pretend toys.
The essence of roleplaying is to play a part, now I know this is not table top, but roleplaying in MMOs brings them alive in my eyes. Yes follow the narrative, be what they want you to be for that. But the idea that that's all there is, no you can make a game so much more.
Now I assume here that we are in a roleplaying guild, the days of roleplayer servers are dead. So its not just you playing a role it is in conjunction with your guild.
I should point out I am not a big rper in MMO's, but I do enough to add that dimension to it. Use your imagination, it does not have to stop when you are a teenager.
Writing fiction is generally an act of communication to an audience, or even creating a product for an audience. It's not really the same as telling a story to yourself. I don't, in fact, write fiction for my own entertainment, because the whole work process makes it less fun that daydreaming, and requires some kind of external purpose to justify it. The activities are also completely opposite in terms of what tools I get and what's under my control. Within a game I tend to find it utterly frustrating to try to tell a story because I have almost no control over the actions of anything within the game. The same applies to roleplaying; I find it very frustrating to try to roleplay because I often don't like what the other player(s) want to do with their characters. That's assuming I even like the character they've created to roleplay with.
These are the issues of roleplaying without a GM in an environment that is not create by the GM and players. You either live with that and get on with it or decided it is too much for you. I fall somewhere in between those too points, generally doing roleplay now and then.
I was not being totally serious about writing being the same thing, but it is an act of creation, there are parallels.
For me - in MMOs the importance of story is = ZERO
I've played MMOs since 1998 and gave up on "story" probably around 2002/3 - that's when I stopped reading all quest/lore
I just pretend that each MMO is about a lost pet or something stupid because it makes no difference to me at all.
I mean even MMOs that I absolutely adore and play today - I have no idea what the story is and it has no impact on the gameplay whatsoever.
My favorite games are the ones that have no story - or just have the most basic rudimentary pieces and leave it to players to create their own story - like Minecraft - or heck even Trove, almost non-existant story.
Now in single player games - i think stories can be awesome because the story doesn't have to account for 100s of thousands of players in the game world, and can focus only on you - as the sole player.
But MMOs - the stories always fail because they completely ignore all of the players and the NPCs often talk to every player as if they were the only ones in existence - this is such a huge oversight that I just can't take any of it seriously.
I mean it feels like a cruel joke - where you are in a world full of people but everyone you talk to only seems like they only see you and nobody else - it's just messed up.
You know, I was honestly firstly very angry at you when I read your post. But then I sat back and had a good think about why I was so upset and realized I actually completely agree with you.
Game LORE is important to me. Why a world exists, why our characters do what they do. Not a prefigured ersatz template forcing our characters to behave in a a manner that the game world requires.
Last poster,yes that is pretty much how i look at it but in FFXI there is ZERO hand holding,no connect the dots so you actually are forced to listen and read and actually scour the entire game world talking to all npc's to be able to do the quests. The other 99.9% of games you can simply click through to the end then a marker of some kind accompanied by solid hints will guide you no reason to pay attention the lore,world or the game or the dialogue.
BTW i still feel most people never understood how better designed FFXI was. Yes for story missions the game treated you as a solo but the entire game was not.Example zones became favored to nations depending on total killing by what nation.So every single player had an impact.
The problem with game design is that pretty much every single developer is cheap and lazy,They just want to ignore all the rest of the game/world and design a few new zones to sell an expansion.Furthermore ALL of your progression is only inside that new for sale sign,so the entire premise you are in a world is removed for that NEW zone. Think about it 5-7 years to make a game/engine that sells for what 70 bucks?Then spend 6 months to a year making 1/10 using an already made engine and sell that expansion for what 30-60 PLUS cash shop and in case of a few PLUS a sub fee...sigh.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This becomes even worse within MMOs, because our story involves 1000s of other real players on our server and so the dictated story elements are not only at odds with our own actions but are usually contradicted by our encounters with other players.
That's an interesting statement. As an MMO player, I can't actually call to mind any instance in which my story has involved other players, with the exception of other players as a market for my crafting. I do typically think of my character's profession, such as mercenary quest-do-er or professional-hunter-of-monsters-for-crafting-mats as part of my personal story within a game though.
As a writer, I think it would be flatly impossible to plan how one player's story would be affected by other players. I actually really hate false stories like how all players belonging to the faction opposite mine are evil so I should be motivated to beat them down in PvP - no they're not, they're just players like me. In a multiplayer minigame like mount racing, or in a PvP tournament, the writer could use an NPC announcer or ally of the player's to put in a little framing narrative about the other players in the role of rivals, or you could insert a comment if two players happen to be in the same guild but competing against each other. That's still a pathetically small opportunity to have other players acting in a predictable role towards the player.
The reason predictability is really important because I agree with you that it's awful when story contradicts the actions within the game world. I still remember how pissed I was when I was playing Skyrim and found out there are unkillable NPCs. That was an absolutely terrible way to handle the fact that they didn't want players breaking quests by killing quest-givers. MMOs are weird with regard to death though; since players are typically immortal it's more understandable if NPCs are also immortal, but the worldbuilding rarely bothers to make up a reason why some or all people are immortal in this world. This is probably because acknowledging the immortality of some or all characters runs counter to the fashion for epic war stories and would break a lot of the standard plots writers like to use. *cough*Aeris*cough*. I could link tvtropes pages here but there are dozens.
Back to MMOs though, I think the description of lore as telling rather than showing, and events that have already happened and thus can't become story is interesting. Maybe you all are not aware, but when a writer takes classes about writing fiction they are strictly told, "Never tell when you can show. Worldbuilding that does not directly impact the protagonist (aka the player's character) is worldbuilding that shouldn't be in the story, it should stay in your notes. Don't describe items unless the description is supposed to contribute to the theme or the plot, both of which exist for the purpose of weaving an experience for the player. The world is a character, the world's physical properties, magical physics, history, and any description of these exists for its interaction with the protagonist and reader; at the very least it should shape an important NPC who is intended to interact with the protagonist. Trim out any extraneous material that doesn't fulfill this purpose!" And additionally, time is rarely linear to a writer. Prequels are always a possibility, not to mention time travel, flashbacks, or the device of presenting a past story and a present story in parallel until you reach a climax that resolves both. So, maybe this info makes it more clear why, to me as a writer, there is no significant difference between lore and story. Even if a tale about how one famous NPC was killed and their lover sought vengeance doesn't directly involve your player character, or may only optionally involve your character if you follow one particular quest line, the story is still there 100% for you as a player. It wouldn't be there if you weren't intended to be emotionally affected by it and include it in your impression of the world's character and the themes of your existence within this world.
So, examples of how other players affect my story:
When I clear any sort of group content, the other players in my group are part of my story
When I PvP, everyone on every side is part of my story
When I buy and sell on an auction house, everyone is part of that story
When I walk through a town or quest hub, everyone I see is part of that story
When I have a conversation with another player, that becomes part of my story
Now, a lot of it is probably inconsequential and I'll forget it, just like in real life. But there will always be more meaningful things that occur that stick with you forever. I remember buying my first scythe in SWG, for example, from a crafter called Upde. The first time I killed the balrog in LotRO in 2007/8, I can still remember most of my raid member's names. I remember my first fight with a warg in the Ettenmoors (glaufrung).
Its good to hear of your experiences as a fiction writer. I think the key difference between writing a book and writing stories/lore in games is the interactive elements. Lore can obviously tell stories, but when we refer to story in computer games it is specifically about the player's personal story, i.e. what they experience themselves.
So, I can see why you'd want to cut out lots of extraneous material when writing a fiction book, it doesn't really add anything to the story you are telling and you want to ensure that your story is as engaging as possible, so that the reader keeps on reading. In a game, the situation is different. Lore becomes optional in a game because it has no direct impact on the player. Lore is also, in my opinion, more important because players can choose to use it in whatever manner they see fit. Some might weave it into their own stories. Most will ignore it. Others will use it as motivation for their own actions.
With dictated story, i.e. what the player is forced to experience, the interactive elements are impossible to control. Sometimes it works out well, if the player acts in the correct way then the story ends up being cohesive. But if they act differently then the experience is jarring.
But, you still end up in a situation where players talk to each other, find out they've all done the same thing and that invalidates the story. Well, for players like me anyway. And that is where the conflict lies. If you create an epic story, that is obviously more exciting for the player, but falls apart when you speak to other players. If you create a story that that works in an MMO, chances are it'll be pretty boring, so players don't care.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
It's not just you, but it is important to get the context right.
So, you mentioned earlier that you played Skyrim, so I'll use that as an example. When you accept a quest in Skyrim, follow the directions, kill whatever needs killing and then hand the quest in, that is a story that is dictated to you. When you open the map and go "I wonder what's over there" and then go exploring and clear out a cave, that is you creating your own story.
Creating your own story doesn't have to be about building anything, or creating a narrative, or providing motivation. Your story is simply your actions in game. In a game with loads of options and tools, you can create a story much more easily and much more uniquely. This is essentially the fundamental sandbox vs themepark argument.
The reason why you probably feel the way you do is the same as most people. When we hit puberty, the majority of us feel the need to fit in, to be part of a group, to find safety in numbers. We become followers. This stifles our creativity and our ability to think outside the box. Our sense of purpose and identity is external, determined by the group and not by ourselves.
This mindset is the reason why themeparks are so popular. Our path is determined for us, we really don't have to think. When we do well, again, that standard is set by someone else and we just have to try and achieve it. It's easy, it appeals to the follower in us and it's why we get constant positive feedback from games, locking us into the cycle.
When that path is no longer provided for us, most people really struggle. Even just coming up with our own goals is a challenge, let alone motivating ourselves to complete those goals! So, the concept of a personal story that we create just doesn't sit well with most people, we want to be guided, we want a path we can follow, we want someone else to tell us we're doing well.
Personally, I'm of the belief that we all have the capacity to be creative and find our own paths and create our own stories within an MMO. The challenge is in making it accessible, something that sandboxes have never gotten right. This is why I believe lore is more important than dictated stories. Lore can provide the context and guidance to players to allow them to create their own story. For example, you might overhear an NPC talking about a warlock that used to live in the ruins. That might inspire killer/explorer types to head to those ruins. You might read a book in game about the destruction of an inn, so that might inspire a crafter to go build an inn of their own. You might hear about the slaughter of some hobbits, which might inspire a player to focus on killing orcs near hobbit villages.
I am also firmly of the belief that this method of designing games is ultimately more rewarding to the player when done right. Setting your own goals and creating your own story is much more satisfying than ticking off a task list created by someone else.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I don't need a story leading me around, but appreciate lore and history I come across.
Basically, develop the world lore that I can discover through playing. Let me develop my story as I go. Give me NPC stories of course, but the story doesn't need to revolve around my character or other players.
It is good to see so many here who want a mmo that make them build stories with their character rather than being herded through a narrative.
Am I the only one who feels like I grew out of this kind of play when I was around 13 and stopped playing pretend with toys? That's not a criticism - I'd enjoy still being able to do that kind of play, but I feel like my brain turned the instinct for it off as I finished puberty. I had assumed that was fairly common, since you don't see most adults doing much pretending, but you often see them reading and watching movies...
For character story in video games, where I get to go along for the ride, single player games satisfy this much more for me than MMOs. I don't want to play a character that the devs wrote and everyone else gets to play, too. My meager mind just has a little disconnect, due to logistics, numbers, and lack of uniqueness
Many players, have no trouble with that, which is a skill, too
GW2 did an interesting "character build backstory" thing, but even that was not unique to anyone. It boiled down to which pre-written path your character followed. Don't get me wrong, it was fun and enjoyable, but not that important when all is said and done, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
And in your basket shooting game you said it was a Match meaning you are competing against others.
Whether you decided to play with others or not is irrelevant. In a multiplayer you can pay with or against others or go on your own. You have the choice. In a single player game you don't.
You cannot decide anything if the game rules do not allow it. Can I "play" with others in MSO games? Yes. Can I compete and cooperate, sharing common long and short term goals related to the game? No. Some instances, that are not really related to the game, cannot make it multiplayer. In GW2 for example the arenas, the dungeons, the battleground are multiplayer certainly. But the game is not.
I never said anything about the game rules. In your scenarios it appeared to be within the rules. Fact remains more than one person means multiplayer. GW2 is multiplayer.
I disagree with pretty much everything you stated regarding personal goals or story or quests. Those can be in both multiplayer and single player games and are key parts of MMO games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
But MMOs - the stories always fail because they completely ignore all of the players and the NPCs often talk to every player as if they were the only ones in existence - this is such a huge oversight that I just can't take any of it seriously.
I mean it feels like a cruel joke - where you are in a world full of people but everyone you talk to only seems like they only see you and nobody else - it's just messed up.
As I've said before, this is the fault, or better said "limitation' of the player.
For a group of people who spend time and money on a past time that indulges in the imagination many seem to be completely devoid of it.
The story is only ever about you. period. Unless the npc or quest text says otherwise.
What? Other players are running up to the npc in question? They are talking about "other things".
done.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But MMOs - the stories always fail because they completely ignore all of the players and the NPCs often talk to every player as if they were the only ones in existence - this is such a huge oversight that I just can't take any of it seriously.
I mean it feels like a cruel joke - where you are in a world full of people but everyone you talk to only seems like they only see you and nobody else - it's just messed up.
As I've said before, this is the fault, or better said "limitation' of the player.
For a group of people who spend time and money on a past time that indulges in the imagination many seem to be completely devoid of it.
The story is only ever about you. period. Unless the npc or quest text says otherwise.
What? Other players are running up to the npc in question? They are talking about "other things".
done.
That's true and I agree it is a "player limitation" of which I suffer
But when I'm playing with "friends" or Guildmates, I'd much rather create our own stories that involve each other (dungeons, gear acquisition, etc) and not have to deal with that at all.
Playing solo, I'm way too cynical to make myself believe another player is getting different dialogue options from the same NPC I just visited with
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
ikcin said: As I said I played with a guild, bigger than yours Did everything you mentioned. I do not expect anyone to be forced for anything. But I expect a multiplayer game, to be multiplayer. Very simple. When I play poker, I do not sit on empty table, till I decide I'm bored to win, and I need some multiplayer experience. I sit and play multiplayer with other people. Is it so hard for you to understand?
My guild had over 500 Members, I highly doubt your guild was bigger. :P
With that said, there were players all around you, if you opted to not play with them, that is your fault, not theirs.
Still you do not get it. In the real world, there are people all around you. That actually means nothing. I can play with other people in GW2 at some limited by the game ways. But it is not a multiplayer game. The multiplayer experience in GW2 is in general pointless. It is nobody's fault. This is the design of the game. To play with other people means to compete and cooperate, sharing common long and short term goals.
If you didn't get that from GW2, that is totally your fault, the means, tools, and modes where there, and the fact that you think the real world is a single player experience.. well.. we will never agree as to me, the Real world is very much a Multi-player game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
For me - in MMOs the importance of story is = ZERO
I've played MMOs since 1998 and gave up on "story" probably around 2002/3 - that's when I stopped reading all quest/lore
I just pretend that each MMO is about a lost pet or something stupid because it makes no difference to me at all.
I mean even MMOs that I absolutely adore and play today - I have no idea what the story is and it has no impact on the gameplay whatsoever.
My favorite games are the ones that have no story - or just have the most basic rudimentary pieces and leave it to players to create their own story - like Minecraft - or heck even Trove, almost non-existant story.
Now in single player games - i think stories can be awesome because the story doesn't have to account for 100s of thousands of players in the game world, and can focus only on you - as the sole player.
But MMOs - the stories always fail because they completely ignore all of the players and the NPCs often talk to every player as if they were the only ones in existence - this is such a huge oversight that I just can't take any of it seriously.
I mean it feels like a cruel joke - where you are in a world full of people but everyone you talk to only seems like they only see you and nobody else - it's just messed up.
I used to be like this for a while. I supposed that was when I was going though the grind phase of playing, and then, I stopped, and started to read what was said, try to understand why I was doing what I was doing. I began to make my own mini-game to see if what they said was linked to what others were saying, trying to find the "lore" under the stories.
Some games hit you in the head with a hammer in the way they link the lore, story and other parts together.
Prime example would be GW2. They pretty much beat you over the head with the story and how you will save everything.
Now in others games, it's a bit more subtle, like I kinda wish that I had a story journal for BDO, so that I could go back and read about various things, (I am sure it exists, but the UI pisses me off so much I just can't find it) just to see if there is something deeper under the surface that maybe links things together on a larger scale.
Sure none of that involves my character, none of it will I affect or change, but, it more a game I like to play of putting it all together.
While other games, are very subtle. They have a lore, they have a story, and the only way you will really get it, is if you pay attention to who is saying what, where and when, even the ambient NPC chatter, links things together, if you pay attention.
So.. to each their own. The best kind of game as I see it, is one that has the lore and the story, but, you don't need to get involved in it.
For example, Everquest had a huge amount of lore, and a large part of the story was what you did, IE: making those stupid legendary weapons. But you could safely ignore all of it, and just randomly run around and kill stuff, and level that way.
For me, without story transforms my character into borderline sociopath that has chosen killing things as their main source of income. I get that sounds Harsh, ... but tell me how I am wrong?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
@sunandshadow I am not sure what point you were trying to get through with the insult. Did you loose the ability to use your own imagination and apply it in a game, and therefore only want to be a passive receiver now ? Maybe mmorpg gaming is possibly not your thing at all ? But in any case @cameltosis reply covers all my points and better than I could have written it.
I do love an interesting story. I'm not that interested in lore. Others love lore and are fast to point out needed corrections but it's just made up history to me. Hell, a lot of real history is just made up history decided by the winning side.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
ikcin said: In the real life you need a reason to make a relation with someone. In a MMO the game should give you such reasons. That makes the game multiplayer, but not the existence of many players.
Nope. We Disagree.
The game gives you things to do, like in GW2, you can run dungeons, fractals, raids, WvW, sPvP, do world bosses, just chat in map like many do in Lions Arch, do seasonal events, etc. etc, If you failed to make those social, then that is purely on you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well you are free to disagree. But I think I'm right.
You're wrong, not right. Then again, you think single player and multiplayer are THE SAME THING, so believe whatever your incorrect mind desires. I'll just laugh at your ignorance.
[edit] PS: Since you seem incapable of looking this up yourself, thus proving you are wrong, here ya go: Single Multiple
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
But also, for them to build an NPC with a story, and a history, they need to control the way the player can interact with them, ensuring that the story gets move forward.
Case in point in GW2, Rylock, goes from a Warrior to a Reverent, and if you jumped into the story later, it make no sense, so they kind of are stuck with stories like that, and needing the players to follow them.
As you said, it's far more difficult then it sounds.
I wish a certain indie project called Pantheon would explain their view on this because I couldn't care less about corpse runs or if clerics get thisandthat feature - What matters to me if they understand that the great thing about eq was that it had an open-ended story approach; not story free but free of story driven narrative - Stories build into every part of the game and not just quests and never pushing players through a overdesigned experience.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Case in point, Skyrim is a single player game, as you cannot interact with other players. Elder Scrolls Online is a multi player game, in that you can interact with other players, that dos not mean they need to play with you, or you with them, it just means you can if you want.
With that said, there were players all around you, if you opted to not play with them, that is your fault, not theirs.
So recap. More than one person playing. You are also playing (not necessarily with them).
Whether you decided to play with others or not is irrelevant. In a multiplayer you can pay with or against others or go on your own. You have the choice. In a single player game you don't.
The essence of roleplaying is to play a part, now I know this is not table top, but roleplaying in MMOs brings them alive in my eyes. Yes follow the narrative, be what they want you to be for that. But the idea that that's all there is, no you can make a game so much more.
Now I assume here that we are in a roleplaying guild, the days of roleplayer servers are dead. So its not just you playing a role it is in conjunction with your guild.
I should point out I am not a big rper in MMO's, but I do enough to add that dimension to it. Use your imagination, it does not have to stop when you are a teenager.
These are the issues of roleplaying without a GM in an environment that is not create by the GM and players. You either live with that and get on with it or decided it is too much for you. I fall somewhere in between those too points, generally doing roleplay now and then.
I was not being totally serious about writing being the same thing, but it is an act of creation, there are parallels.
Game LORE is important to me. Why a world exists, why our characters do what they do. Not a prefigured ersatz template forcing our characters to behave in a a manner that the game world requires.
The other 99.9% of games you can simply click through to the end then a marker of some kind accompanied by solid hints will guide you no reason to pay attention the lore,world or the game or the dialogue.
BTW i still feel most people never understood how better designed FFXI was.
Yes for story missions the game treated you as a solo but the entire game was not.Example zones became favored to nations depending on total killing by what nation.So every single player had an impact.
The problem with game design is that pretty much every single developer is cheap and lazy,They just want to ignore all the rest of the game/world and design a few new zones to sell an expansion.Furthermore ALL of your progression is only inside that new for sale sign,so the entire premise you are in a world is removed for that NEW zone.
Think about it 5-7 years to make a game/engine that sells for what 70 bucks?Then spend 6 months to a year making 1/10 using an already made engine and sell that expansion for what 30-60 PLUS cash shop and in case of a few PLUS a sub fee...sigh.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Now, a lot of it is probably inconsequential and I'll forget it, just like in real life. But there will always be more meaningful things that occur that stick with you forever. I remember buying my first scythe in SWG, for example, from a crafter called Upde. The first time I killed the balrog in LotRO in 2007/8, I can still remember most of my raid member's names. I remember my first fight with a warg in the Ettenmoors (glaufrung).
Its good to hear of your experiences as a fiction writer. I think the key difference between writing a book and writing stories/lore in games is the interactive elements. Lore can obviously tell stories, but when we refer to story in computer games it is specifically about the player's personal story, i.e. what they experience themselves.
So, I can see why you'd want to cut out lots of extraneous material when writing a fiction book, it doesn't really add anything to the story you are telling and you want to ensure that your story is as engaging as possible, so that the reader keeps on reading. In a game, the situation is different. Lore becomes optional in a game because it has no direct impact on the player. Lore is also, in my opinion, more important because players can choose to use it in whatever manner they see fit. Some might weave it into their own stories. Most will ignore it. Others will use it as motivation for their own actions.
With dictated story, i.e. what the player is forced to experience, the interactive elements are impossible to control. Sometimes it works out well, if the player acts in the correct way then the story ends up being cohesive. But if they act differently then the experience is jarring.
But, you still end up in a situation where players talk to each other, find out they've all done the same thing and that invalidates the story. Well, for players like me anyway. And that is where the conflict lies. If you create an epic story, that is obviously more exciting for the player, but falls apart when you speak to other players. If you create a story that that works in an MMO, chances are it'll be pretty boring, so players don't care.
So, you mentioned earlier that you played Skyrim, so I'll use that as an example. When you accept a quest in Skyrim, follow the directions, kill whatever needs killing and then hand the quest in, that is a story that is dictated to you. When you open the map and go "I wonder what's over there" and then go exploring and clear out a cave, that is you creating your own story.
Creating your own story doesn't have to be about building anything, or creating a narrative, or providing motivation. Your story is simply your actions in game. In a game with loads of options and tools, you can create a story much more easily and much more uniquely. This is essentially the fundamental sandbox vs themepark argument.
The reason why you probably feel the way you do is the same as most people. When we hit puberty, the majority of us feel the need to fit in, to be part of a group, to find safety in numbers. We become followers. This stifles our creativity and our ability to think outside the box. Our sense of purpose and identity is external, determined by the group and not by ourselves.
This mindset is the reason why themeparks are so popular. Our path is determined for us, we really don't have to think. When we do well, again, that standard is set by someone else and we just have to try and achieve it. It's easy, it appeals to the follower in us and it's why we get constant positive feedback from games, locking us into the cycle.
When that path is no longer provided for us, most people really struggle. Even just coming up with our own goals is a challenge, let alone motivating ourselves to complete those goals! So, the concept of a personal story that we create just doesn't sit well with most people, we want to be guided, we want a path we can follow, we want someone else to tell us we're doing well.
Personally, I'm of the belief that we all have the capacity to be creative and find our own paths and create our own stories within an MMO. The challenge is in making it accessible, something that sandboxes have never gotten right. This is why I believe lore is more important than dictated stories. Lore can provide the context and guidance to players to allow them to create their own story. For example, you might overhear an NPC talking about a warlock that used to live in the ruins. That might inspire killer/explorer types to head to those ruins. You might read a book in game about the destruction of an inn, so that might inspire a crafter to go build an inn of their own. You might hear about the slaughter of some hobbits, which might inspire a player to focus on killing orcs near hobbit villages.
I am also firmly of the belief that this method of designing games is ultimately more rewarding to the player when done right. Setting your own goals and creating your own story is much more satisfying than ticking off a task list created by someone else.
Basically, develop the world lore that I can discover through playing. Let me develop my story as I go. Give me NPC stories of course, but the story doesn't need to revolve around my character or other players.
Many players, have no trouble with that, which is a skill, too
GW2 did an interesting "character build backstory" thing, but even that was not unique to anyone. It boiled down to which pre-written path your character followed. Don't get me wrong, it was fun and enjoyable, but not that important when all is said and done, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I disagree with pretty much everything you stated regarding personal goals or story or quests. Those can be in both multiplayer and single player games and are key parts of MMO games.
For a group of people who spend time and money on a past time that indulges in the imagination many seem to be completely devoid of it.
The story is only ever about you. period. Unless the npc or quest text says otherwise.
What? Other players are running up to the npc in question? They are talking about "other things".
done.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But when I'm playing with "friends" or Guildmates, I'd much rather create our own stories that involve each other (dungeons, gear acquisition, etc) and not have to deal with that at all.
Playing solo, I'm way too cynical to make myself believe another player is getting different dialogue options from the same NPC I just visited with
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Some games hit you in the head with a hammer in the way they link the lore, story and other parts together.
Prime example would be GW2. They pretty much beat you over the head with the story and how you will save everything.
Now in others games, it's a bit more subtle, like I kinda wish that I had a story journal for BDO, so that I could go back and read about various things, (I am sure it exists, but the UI pisses me off so much I just can't find it) just to see if there is something deeper under the surface that maybe links things together on a larger scale.
Sure none of that involves my character, none of it will I affect or change, but, it more a game I like to play of putting it all together.
While other games, are very subtle. They have a lore, they have a story, and the only way you will really get it, is if you pay attention to who is saying what, where and when, even the ambient NPC chatter, links things together, if you pay attention.
So.. to each their own. The best kind of game as I see it, is one that has the lore and the story, but, you don't need to get involved in it.
For example, Everquest had a huge amount of lore, and a large part of the story was what you did, IE: making those stupid legendary weapons. But you could safely ignore all of it, and just randomly run around and kill stuff, and level that way.
For me, without story transforms my character into borderline sociopath that has chosen killing things as their main source of income. I get that sounds Harsh, ... but tell me how I am wrong?
But in any case @cameltosis reply covers all my points and better than I could have written it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The game gives you things to do, like in GW2, you can run dungeons, fractals, raids, WvW, sPvP, do world bosses, just chat in map like many do in Lions Arch, do seasonal events, etc. etc, If you failed to make those social, then that is purely on you.
[edit]
PS: Since you seem incapable of looking this up yourself, thus proving you are wrong, here ya go:
Single
Multiple
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR