As one of the silent lurkers of mmorpg, I was here when the last debacle was PFO, I don't usually agree with your hot take Slap but here I do.
So to the folks talking about market valuation, that is meaningless if I can't resell it, and if I can resell it then market valuation isn't what the dealer [SBS] is selling it for.
Someone used magic the gathering, great, lets talk about how magic the gathering cards are valued! I can resell them, so it has a market value, to say I pay x for a booster pack so that booster pack is worth x isn't how the market works. If it was then in theory I should be able to take all of the cards I got in the booster and be able to resell them for x or more than x. This isn't the case though because some boosters are worth less than x based on how valuable or not valuable the sum total of the cards are.
So yes in the case of mtg it absolutely is gambling because you have a chance of getting cards whose market value is less than the going rate aka if I tried to resell it the market will only buy it from me at less than x
However soul packs don't currently allow you to trade in or otherwise resell them, so the market value is basically irrelevant. The only concern is my value on an item, because there isn't anything else I can do with them. This is similar to say overwatch lootboxes, I can pay x dollars but just get duplicates and game currency, I paid x but I got only dupes which are just about worthless to me. We know this because if I were to get nothing but dupes aka game currency I couldn't realistically buy another pack with just game currency, so even that game is telling me that the item I am buying have a chance of being worth less than the purchase price.
If the item I am buying is essentially something that I am valuing for less than x, it is less than x if no resell market exists. Valuation isn't on the person selling, it's on the person buying, it's how our stock market and economy works. At the time of buying a loot box or soul pack in this case, yes it absolutely is valued at 10 dollars because it's unopened and has a chance of being worth that value. However once the box is opened that value becomes tangible based on how I view it.
To go back to Magic the gathering for example, yes absolutely when I buy a booster, the price of the booster unopened is equal to the purchase price because of the giant amount of possibilities that exist before it is opened. Once opened however it is now worth whatever is inside, because i have taken away a critical component of its previous valuation, which is to say I have removed the mystery and chance of the pack.
Now whether this is good or bad is irrelevant to whether it is gambling or a lootbox.
Whether this is good or bad depends as Slap said on them being upfront which means not only posting it on their site, but at a minimum putting firm % chance of getting rare or old souls, or else it is going to look highly predatory. Also they need to increase the amount of time to more than 10 hours, as that is not a high enough bar to stop folks from gambling when you could potentially get such an advantage with a hypothetical 2 year old soul, or rare or unique soul.
For example if you did nothing but open packs and test them for a year which would be a high expense you still have the chance of coming out ahead with an old or rare soul in terms of skills you want. But money isn't a limiter in this case, as games like Mass effect or hell even Warframe Kubrow skins from the recent polygon article have shown, if you make money the limiting factor, you are going to get folks with very clear gambling addictions and it is going to seem like you are preying on those folks.
Now whether you think preying on vulnerable people is good or bad is your subjective view, but for me it's bad, so imo they need to do as much as possible to make it not appealing to those types of people.
Let's be honest, the topic of this thread is not the title. It's not about whether or not soul packs are lootboxes. It's about Slap flat out accusing SBS of lying about why they currently don't have a publisher.
The point Slap is tiring to make is: "If it's true that SBS turned down publishers/investors because they don't want lootboxes then why do they have these Soulpacks that can be considered lootboxes?"
To that I still lose these questions:
When SBS was pitching their game, were these Soulpacks included in these discussions for their business model? Did the publishers say that they wanted more and different kinds of "lootboxes"? Were the publishers specifically requesting gear style lootboxes as an added revenue stream and SBS drew the line there?
Wellspring mentioned they spent hundreds of dollars on lootboxes in other games and found that others were willing to spend thousands on their own in the same game. To a publisher, requesting something with that kind of return only makes good business sense.
Do you think this is where SBS walked away from the "evil" publishers because the publishers they spoke to were only willing to make a deal if the game included specific types of lootboxes? Lootboxes that SBS was not willing to put in their game?
Let's be honest, the topic of this thread is not the title. It's not about whether or not soul packs are lootboxes. It's about Slap flat out accusing SBS of lying about why they currently don't have a publisher.
The point Slap is tiring to make is: "If it's true that SBS turned down publishers/investors because they don't want lootboxes then why do they have these Soulpacks that can be considered lootboxes?"
To that I still lose these questions:
When SBS was pitching their game, were these Soulpacks included in these discussions for their business model? Did the publishers say that they wanted more and different kinds of "lootboxes"? Were the publishers specifically requesting gear style lootboxes as an added revenue stream and SBS drew the line there?
Slap, I know you mentioned you've spent hundreds of dollars on lootboxes in other games and found that others were willing to spend thousands on their own in the same game. To a publisher, requesting something with that kind of return only makes good business sense.
Do you think this is where SBS walked away from the "evil" publishers because the publishers they spoke to were only willing to make a deal if the game included specific types of lootboxes? Lootboxes that SBS was not willing to put in their game?
HUH? If you think I've spent hundred of dollars on lootboxes you are following the wrong person.
If you think this wasn't about whether or not these ARE lootboxes you are reading the wrong thread.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
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Actually that list sounds very much like a money sink to attain the soul want.Furthermore the idea of bantering around souls like a loot box is just very lame. the focus should be on the game and it's world and the content,not about what kind of soul you can have. Souls should NOT be in the cash shop..period..ever.I originally thought the idea was you just die and pay 5 bucks to revive,i thought ok it weighs in evenly instead of a big purchase price and sub fee,but this is just detracting from the entire game in a big way,more meaning than it should have.
My very first question/thought was is this idea going to encourage cash shop and encourage dying etc etc.I have to be skeptical because devs are always feeding the community a lot of bull and manipulating their words to sound like a NEW idea or the BEST idea ever.
I agree that the focus should be on the creation of the game and not soul packs. And that is exactly where it is for the Dev team. Permadeath, souls, and sparks have been a part of CoE since it first became public, this is not something that is new. It is just the thing Slapshot decided to focus on this week in an attempt to discredit SBS.
There was never a time when you died and paid five bucks to revive, I am not sure where you got that from. It has always been $30 to respark your soul after permadeath. The same as soul packs are not new, it has always been known that they would be available to create additional characters. As for the topic distracting from the game, that is not the fault of SBS but rather of folks making a mountain out of a molehill so to speak. Next they will be attacking the talent system.
In the two nearly three years I have been involved with SBS I have never once felt I was being manipulated or feed bull. The concept of the game has always remained the same, less a few small tweaks here and there that are quite often a result of community feedback.
I agree that the structure of the game differs greatly in comparison to other games, the biggest difference being permadeath and the pay per life model. Not everyone is going to want to play it but just because it isn't the type of game you would enjoy, doesn't mean there isn't a demographic out there that feels differently and is eager to play it.
What I don't understand is if someone doesn't like the concepts and structure of a game, why would they bother with it at all. Why not just find a game you would enjoy and move on to support that game.
If the game was such a scam don't you think it would be the people that had pledged to the game who would be screaming the loudest? Wouldn't the store pledges have ceased, instead of continuously increased over the last two years? To the tune of over 4 million dollars. Yet, unsatisfied pledgers (because there are some) are a minority and the majority of people complaining about the game here have zero interest in playing it and have invested nothing.
At this you point aren't hearing many complaints from backers as little to nothing has actually been delivered "in game."
The "best" game out today is the one players imagine in their heads, before reality sets in and dashes their hopes.
Once the game starts to become a reality, any variation from the devs early designs will be viewed as a "betrayal" by some and they will turn around and become its harshest critics.
One reason many devs shy away from providing too many details on features early on is things tend to change so much by the time the game goes live.
Soulbound has gone the opposite direction by providing intricate details on how things are supposed to work, and IMO many of those features (i.e. animal breeding system) are complicated mini games which will be a challenge to deliver on.
Someone out there will be expecting the breeding system to be delivered exactly as promised, and if changed too much, or worse, put on hold or scrapped the outrage from former supporters will become epic.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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@Slapshot1188 Was wellspring on the 2nd page, my bad and I've edited that post.
If this isn't about some crusade with what SBS said about lootboxes being the sticking point in why they haven't yet got a publisher. Then... Why do you bring that up?
I mean... That's one of the main bullet points of your OP after all...
Actually that list sounds very much like a money sink to attain the soul want.Furthermore the idea of bantering around souls like a loot box is just very lame. the focus should be on the game and it's world and the content,not about what kind of soul you can have. Souls should NOT be in the cash shop..period..ever.I originally thought the idea was you just die and pay 5 bucks to revive,i thought ok it weighs in evenly instead of a big purchase price and sub fee,but this is just detracting from the entire game in a big way,more meaning than it should have.
My very first question/thought was is this idea going to encourage cash shop and encourage dying etc etc.I have to be skeptical because devs are always feeding the community a lot of bull and manipulating their words to sound like a NEW idea or the BEST idea ever.
I agree that the focus should be on the creation of the game and not soul packs. And that is exactly where it is for the Dev team. Permadeath, souls, and sparks have been a part of CoE since it first became public, this is not something that is new. It is just the thing Slapshot decided to focus on this week in an attempt to discredit SBS.
There was never a time when you died and paid five bucks to revive, I am not sure where you got that from. It has always been $30 to respark your soul after permadeath. The same as soul packs are not new, it has always been known that they would be available to create additional characters. As for the topic distracting from the game, that is not the fault of SBS but rather of folks making a mountain out of a molehill so to speak. Next they will be attacking the talent system.
In the two nearly three years I have been involved with SBS I have never once felt I was being manipulated or feed bull. The concept of the game has always remained the same, less a few small tweaks here and there that are quite often a result of community feedback.
I agree that the structure of the game differs greatly in comparison to other games, the biggest difference being permadeath and the pay per life model. Not everyone is going to want to play it but just because it isn't the type of game you would enjoy, doesn't mean there isn't a demographic out there that feels differently and is eager to play it.
What I don't understand is if someone doesn't like the concepts and structure of a game, why would they bother with it at all. Why not just find a game you would enjoy and move on to support that game.
If the game was such a scam don't you think it would be the people that had pledged to the game who would be screaming the loudest? Wouldn't the store pledges have ceased, instead of continuously increased over the last two years? To the tune of over 4 million dollars. Yet, unsatisfied pledgers (because there are some) are a minority and the majority of people complaining about the game here have zero interest in playing it and have invested nothing.
At this you point aren't hearing many complaints from backers as little to nothing has actually been delivered "in game."
The "best" game out today is the one players imagine in their heads, before reality sets in and dashes their hopes.
Once the game starts to become a reality, any variation from the devs early designs will be viewed as a "betrayal" by some and they will turn around and become its harshest critics.
One reason many devs shy away from providing too many details on features early on is things tend to change so much by the time the game goes live.
Soulbound has gone the opposite direction by providing intricate details on how things are supposed to work, and IMO many of those features (i.e. animal breeding system) are complicated mini games which will be a challenge to deliver on.
Someone out there will be expecting the breeding system to be delivered exactly as promised, and if changed too much, or worse, put on hold or scrapped the outrage from former supporters will become epic.
Well as many have pointed out in these threads several times. There is no game, yet. So to pass judgment on what is and what isn't is very premature. Does SBS promise features that aren't in other games? Yes, they do. But there is also content and features in other games that won't be a consideration for SBS. For example, time and resources won't be spent on a repeatable storyline and quest hubs, spawns, equipment stats, epic gear sets or the balancing of these items, loot drops, voice actors, Epic bosses, dungeons ext... So by not having to focus on these types of features why wouldn't they be able to implement the features required for their game.
It is a different style of game, and to compare it to other games is like comparing apples and oranges. In addition, SBS will be working closely with the community on developing the features they have promised with the use of VoxElyria long before the actual game launches. They have proved themselves to listen to their community several times in the past, I see no reason why that would change during VoxElyria.
The majority of backers will have already experienced the game mechanics long before the game launches in VoxElyria and Kingdoms of Elyria.
So I've been a pretty big supporter of CoE, not on here because i'm just a lurker here, but i'm certainly a high level backer.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
So I've been a pretty big supporter of CoE, not on here because i'm just a lurker here, but i'm certainly a high level backer.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
When did you first become aware of the RNG SoulPacks? Did you back knowing this? Did you know there were SoulPacks but not how they would work? Or were you surprised to learn they would have such a RNG mechanic?
Just curious.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So I've been a pretty big supporter of CoE, not on here because i'm just a lurker here, but i'm certainly a high level backer.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
When did you first become aware of the RNG SoulPacks? Did you back knowing this? Did you know there were SoulPacks but not how they would work? Or were you surprised to learn they would have such a RNG mechanic?
Just curious.
I remember hearing about it at some point, I don't remember when or where but their communication was a mess at the time. What I don't remember is rarity, I remember like you can get say a soul of a blacksmith, but I don't remember things like it would be better than others. So no I don't remember rng soul packs in this sense where they are as Caspian put it super rare or unique souls as part of the sales pitch.
So yeah you can color me surprised in this instance on the fact that there are rarities to these things and some are better or worse than others.
Not at all. This is the essence of lootboxes. Even in Fortnite you could buy “Weapon Llamas”. Sure I get a weapon every time, but it could be a sword, a handgun, a machine gun....
You like that random chance... go for it. As long as they admit what they are doing and give you the information to gamble on the result that’s great.
You are mistaking a game of chance with a 'lootbox' and gambling, and they are not remotely the same thing.
Case in point, CCG's. MtG was a big thing, and many players bought Booster Packs. Now, every single booster pack contained 10 common, 3 uncommon and 1 Rare card.
I not a gamble as you will always get that outcome, you will never walk away with nothing, so there is no risk involved.
While It is a game of chance, it is not a gamble. Now you like me, do not like RNG games, but that does not make evil, or bad, it simply makes them something we don't like.
Now, you may not like what you got, that is a risk, but it is not a fiscal risk, it is a personal preference risk. IE: You may want to build a Green deck and all the rare cards you got were black.
It happens, but, you still walk away with your value in cards even if they are not the cards you want, or have no value to you personally, that does not change the actual value of the cards themselves, you got exactly what you paid for and under no situation did you get slighted, cheated, or shorted in any way.
Case in point, I work in construction, so I drive a truck and use it for work, as such, I place no value on cars, and even lower value on sporty cars. Now, just because I don't value a sports car, does not mean the sports car itself is devalued or worth less in any means.
With all that said.
NO..
This is not some random candy in a package, you will get 3 souls every single time you Soul Pack (or that is what is the statement right now), at the very least, 3 souls is worth 10 dollars, as that is what people need to pay for them. So you always get your chocolate bar, even if you don't want it, or like it.. you still get the chocolate bar, because that is what you paid for.
With souls, you are buying 3 souls for 10 dollars. That is their resale value, and the price the seller is asking. If that is not a price you want to pay, don't buy it.
If you will settle for nothing less then an Old Soul or Unique Soul, and everything else is worthless to you, that does not change the market value of 3 souls is 10 dollars.
That does not change that you are not buying an Old Soul or a Unique Soul, you are buying a Pack of 3 Souls (with the promise of nothing more then 3 generic fresh start souls). If that does not work for you, don't buy it.
If RNG is something you don't like, then don't play into the system. That is how I roll, as I do not like RNG games like this either.
But again, that does not change you are getting your value, that this is not a loot box, and this is no a gamble.
Not going to argue if they are good or bad.
Just needed to get them to admit the mechanic which we have succeeded. So hopefully no more PR spin posts about how they turned down publishers because they wanted them to implement evil lootboxes.
It's not a "lootbox" or do think think every RNG item is a "Lootbox" if so, then just like the watered down BS that has Become P2W, we can expect "Lootbox" to mean jack shit soon to.
It's an RNG game, and one that you can't even fail at. Hell it's better then most RNG mechanics I have seen in a games.
And it differs from buying a "WeaponLlama" in Fortnite how?
Buy a Llama.. get a few random weapons. Buy a SoulPack get a few random Souls.
You can say there are MORE lootboxes in Fortnite. And I would agree. But it's the same mechanic behind it. Whether it's Souls, or Weapons, or Skins... is irrelevant.
Do people cry that the "Weapon Lama" which is purely cosmetic I assume, is a Lootbox?
Umm... no.
But also irrelevant.
Ummm.. lets process this.
They are not called Lootboxes by the masses in Fortnight, and you are trying to use them to justify calling Soulcrates of CoE Lootboxes.. And you don't see how that's relevant?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Not at all. This is the essence of lootboxes. Even in Fortnite you could buy “Weapon Llamas”. Sure I get a weapon every time, but it could be a sword, a handgun, a machine gun....
You like that random chance... go for it. As long as they admit what they are doing and give you the information to gamble on the result that’s great.
You are mistaking a game of chance with a 'lootbox' and gambling, and they are not remotely the same thing.
Case in point, CCG's. MtG was a big thing, and many players bought Booster Packs. Now, every single booster pack contained 10 common, 3 uncommon and 1 Rare card.
I not a gamble as you will always get that outcome, you will never walk away with nothing, so there is no risk involved.
While It is a game of chance, it is not a gamble. Now you like me, do not like RNG games, but that does not make evil, or bad, it simply makes them something we don't like.
Now, you may not like what you got, that is a risk, but it is not a fiscal risk, it is a personal preference risk. IE: You may want to build a Green deck and all the rare cards you got were black.
It happens, but, you still walk away with your value in cards even if they are not the cards you want, or have no value to you personally, that does not change the actual value of the cards themselves, you got exactly what you paid for and under no situation did you get slighted, cheated, or shorted in any way.
Case in point, I work in construction, so I drive a truck and use it for work, as such, I place no value on cars, and even lower value on sporty cars. Now, just because I don't value a sports car, does not mean the sports car itself is devalued or worth less in any means.
With all that said.
NO..
This is not some random candy in a package, you will get 3 souls every single time you Soul Pack (or that is what is the statement right now), at the very least, 3 souls is worth 10 dollars, as that is what people need to pay for them. So you always get your chocolate bar, even if you don't want it, or like it.. you still get the chocolate bar, because that is what you paid for.
With souls, you are buying 3 souls for 10 dollars. That is their resale value, and the price the seller is asking. If that is not a price you want to pay, don't buy it.
If you will settle for nothing less then an Old Soul or Unique Soul, and everything else is worthless to you, that does not change the market value of 3 souls is 10 dollars.
That does not change that you are not buying an Old Soul or a Unique Soul, you are buying a Pack of 3 Souls (with the promise of nothing more then 3 generic fresh start souls). If that does not work for you, don't buy it.
If RNG is something you don't like, then don't play into the system. That is how I roll, as I do not like RNG games like this either.
But again, that does not change you are getting your value, that this is not a loot box, and this is no a gamble.
Not going to argue if they are good or bad.
Just needed to get them to admit the mechanic which we have succeeded. So hopefully no more PR spin posts about how they turned down publishers because they wanted them to implement evil lootboxes.
It's not a "lootbox" or do think think every RNG item is a "Lootbox" if so, then just like the watered down BS that has Become P2W, we can expect "Lootbox" to mean jack shit soon to.
It's an RNG game, and one that you can't even fail at. Hell it's better then most RNG mechanics I have seen in a games.
And it differs from buying a "WeaponLlama" in Fortnite how?
Buy a Llama.. get a few random weapons. Buy a SoulPack get a few random Souls.
You can say there are MORE lootboxes in Fortnite. And I would agree. But it's the same mechanic behind it. Whether it's Souls, or Weapons, or Skins... is irrelevant.
Do people cry that the "Weapon Lama" which is purely cosmetic I assume, is a Lootbox?
Umm... no.
But also irrelevant.
Ummm.. lets process this.
They are not called Lootboxes by the masses in Fortnight, and you are trying to use them to justify calling Soulcrates of CoE Lootboxes.. And you don't see how that's relevant?
No.. they are not COSMETICS. Seriously... half the stuff you post about here you either do not understand or get wrong. I'm not trying to be mean but if you don't understand the reference just go look it up. I mean I freaking EXPLAINED how they work... that you buy a "Weapon Llama" and get random weapons...
And you respond to the very same post saying you assume they are purely cosmetic.
People do not CRY that they are lootboxes. It's understood what they are. People may "cry" that they are P2W but at least Epic is open and didn't hide the mechanic on page 3 of a random forum post. Simply going to the website and clicking on the standard package would show they get:
Daily Loot Pinata Packs
6
Exclusive Founder’s Loot Pinata Packs
1
And have a freaking video showing you smacking a pinata Llama and getting loot to drop out of it.
But it doesn't even MATTER if it's weapons, skins or souls... its the fact they are RNG lootboxes...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Simple case and point here, I've argued aganst some people in this thread from both sides and now here is my take.
Soul packs are loot boxes of some degree or another. The discussion can not take away from that
So imho we should evolve the discussion to what can SBS do to mitigate the gambling aspect of this.
Introduce a hard "cap" on souls, you can buy 9 souls maximum, the 3 you get from the game and 2 packs. This reduces the aspects of p2w because you can't just spend spend spend until you get an epic soul.
Multiple people have mentioned gambling and the issue this has, I understand this more than most as I have a very addctive personality and have to be careful with things like gambling. So how to mitigate the gambling aspect.... tbh I don't know at this moment in time but there must be some way...
So I've been a pretty big supporter of CoE, not on here because i'm just a lurker here, but i'm certainly a high level backer.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
When did you first become aware of the RNG SoulPacks? Did you back knowing this? Did you know there were SoulPacks but not how they would work? Or were you surprised to learn they would have such a RNG mechanic?
Just curious.
I remember hearing about it at some point, I don't remember when or where but their communication was a mess at the time. What I don't remember is rarity, I remember like you can get say a soul of a blacksmith, but I don't remember things like it would be better than others. So no I don't remember rng soul packs in this sense where they are as Caspian put it super rare or unique souls as part of the sales pitch.
So yeah you can color me surprised in this instance on the fact that there are rarities to these things and some are better or worse than others.
Edited for clarity
Thanks for that.
Some people like lootboxes. I hate em... but not all games need to be for all people. I just think that people need to be given the information to make an informed choice. The first step was admitting to the mechanic. The next step is making that easily accessible to prospective customers.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So I've been a pretty big supporter of CoE, not on here because i'm just a lurker here, but i'm certainly a high level backer.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
When did you first become aware of the RNG SoulPacks? Did you back knowing this? Did you know there were SoulPacks but not how they would work? Or were you surprised to learn they would have such a RNG mechanic?
Just curious.
I remember hearing about it at some point, I don't remember when or where but their communication was a mess at the time. What I don't remember is rarity, I remember like you can get say a soul of a blacksmith, but I don't remember things like it would be better than others. So no I don't remember rng soul packs in this sense where they are as Caspian put it super rare or unique souls as part of the sales pitch.
So yeah you can color me surprised in this instance on the fact that there are rarities to these things and some are better or worse than others.
Edited for clarity
Thanks for that.
Some people like lootboxes. I hate em... but not all games need to be for all people. I just think that people need to be given the information to make an informed choice. The first step was admitting to the mechanic. The next step is making that easily accessible to prospective customers.
They have said they are planning on them atm, maybe the info isn't on the site atm because they are still hammering out the details and they may eventually get axed.
I for one would prefer everyone to start with the basic soul and as the game ages all souls age. the basic souls can still be themed into crafter etc, and each player gets one of each type of soul
Simple case and point here, I've argued aganst some people in this thread from both sides and now here is my take.
Soul packs are loot boxes of some degree or another. The discussion can not take away from that
So imho we should evolve the discussion to what can SBS do to mitigate the gambling aspect of this.
Introduce a hard "cap" on souls, you can buy 9 souls maximum, the 3 you get from the game and 2 packs. This reduces the aspects of p2w because you can't just spend spend spend until you get an epic soul.
Multiple people have mentioned gambling and the issue this has, I understand this more than most as I have a very addctive personality and have to be careful with things like gambling. So how to mitigate the gambling aspect.... tbh I don't know at this moment in time but there must be some way...
Step 1: Make the knowledge that it includes RNG lootboxes easily accessible. This way someone like you can make an educated choice.
There really isn't another step because if it's either RNG based or not. Putting a hard cap doesn't really help because people will just make another account. That just makes it a bit more costly but would not stop an addictive personality.
Again... WHY is the RNG portion needed? What does it add to the game? Simply take it out! If you need monetization (and they do) simply sell them directly. Would it be so bad to just take out the "old souls"? If they are really 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 packs then removing them would have no tangible impact on the game (other than money which can be recovered as described below)
Just let people buy a "Warrior" (Blacksmith, Miner, etc...) soul and customize it how they want. Put the actual cost you need on them. $5, $10, $25... just remove the RNG stuff.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah, make the souls come with purchasing the game, you can choose a soul or otherwise customize it yourself to start. If you absolutely needed some of them to be powerful then only sell these soulpacks before launch that way no one really has a chance to know if they are super powered or not. Then if people want more souls just make the rest normal regular souls.
Or let them buy these souls directly in the cash shop. There's tons of ways that they can go about this that wouldn't look as if they are preying on folks.
Simple case and point here, I've argued aganst some people in this thread from both sides and now here is my take.
Soul packs are loot boxes of some degree or another. The discussion can not take away from that
So imho we should evolve the discussion to what can SBS do to mitigate the gambling aspect of this.
Introduce a hard "cap" on souls, you can buy 9 souls maximum, the 3 you get from the game and 2 packs. This reduces the aspects of p2w because you can't just spend spend spend until you get an epic soul.
Multiple people have mentioned gambling and the issue this has, I understand this more than most as I have a very addctive personality and have to be careful with things like gambling. So how to mitigate the gambling aspect.... tbh I don't know at this moment in time but there must be some way...
My suggestion. Since they plan to sell these souls, and a soul requires a spark to activate it, why not simply drop the loot box aspect, and allow people to buy a single soul with a certain set of skills. Essentially, the soul allows a player to create a single alternate persona with preset affinities to a set of specific skills.
If you absolutely have to have differentiate the skills, rate this skill affinity as Nominal - normal learning, Small - accelerated learning through 5th skill level, Medium - accelerated learning through 12 skill level, and High - accelerated learning through 19th skill level. It even makes sense to price these souls differently, as this game clearly isn't bothered by claims of Pay to Win.
Put all the info up front so the purchaser knows exactly what they are buying, and how much it costs. Crafter Soul. Medium Blacksmith, Armorer. Small - Spear, Hammer. $12. This removes the randomness from the process.
If SBS simply can't live without some degree of randomness, introduce Souls using an auction system to a achieve whatever-the-market-will-bear pricing. Change the $12 to a 'Starting bid $12', and put an auction end date/time (maybe even hidden to prevent 'bid camping'). Then the only thing that is unknown is the final price. Whales can indulge themselves, and paupers can avoid this as suits their needs/wants/wallet.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Simple case and point here, I've argued aganst some people in this thread from both sides and now here is my take.
Soul packs are loot boxes of some degree or another. The discussion can not take away from that
So imho we should evolve the discussion to what can SBS do to mitigate the gambling aspect of this.
Introduce a hard "cap" on souls, you can buy 9 souls maximum, the 3 you get from the game and 2 packs. This reduces the aspects of p2w because you can't just spend spend spend until you get an epic soul.
Multiple people have mentioned gambling and the issue this has, I understand this more than most as I have a very addctive personality and have to be careful with things like gambling. So how to mitigate the gambling aspect.... tbh I don't know at this moment in time but there must be some way...
That's my thing too- lootbox doesn't have to be a bad word here. Implementation is key. It's going to be a very delicate balance, but I feel like such balancing acts are unavoidable when you're talking in-depth RPG mechanics and massively multiplayer.
When you strike the right balance, it can add a lot for the player. If you don't, the word lootbox in its negative connotation will catch on like wildfire.
Just been catching up on the couple of interesting threads and come back here.
So I saw someone said about customising souls, I don't like this idea at character creation.
But what about...
All souls start off as new, and have an affinity for a certain profession type. Then for their first life they benefit from a skill ramp for that first life (just a minor one) so you can further customise (during your life) that soul into, for example, blacksmithing. Now on its subsequent lives that soul gets further skill ramps into blacksmithing but gets penalties into any other skill.
This way everyone has 3 souls they can "customise" (one combat, one crafting, one ????) at the start of the game.
This would also produce an additional revenue stream as instead of selling "loot boxes" they sell specialised (i.e. combat) clean souls that have the "new soul" skill ramp.
Comments
So to the folks talking about market valuation, that is meaningless if I can't resell it, and if I can resell it then market valuation isn't what the dealer [SBS] is selling it for.
Someone used magic the gathering, great, lets talk about how magic the gathering cards are valued! I can resell them, so it has a market value, to say I pay x for a booster pack so that booster pack is worth x isn't how the market works. If it was then in theory I should be able to take all of the cards I got in the booster and be able to resell them for x or more than x. This isn't the case though because some boosters are worth less than x based on how valuable or not valuable the sum total of the cards are.
So yes in the case of mtg it absolutely is gambling because you have a chance of getting cards whose market value is less than the going rate aka if I tried to resell it the market will only buy it from me at less than x
However soul packs don't currently allow you to trade in or otherwise resell them, so the market value is basically irrelevant. The only concern is my value on an item, because there isn't anything else I can do with them. This is similar to say overwatch lootboxes, I can pay x dollars but just get duplicates and game currency, I paid x but I got only dupes which are just about worthless to me. We know this because if I were to get nothing but dupes aka game currency I couldn't realistically buy another pack with just game currency, so even that game is telling me that the item I am buying have a chance of being worth less than the purchase price.
If the item I am buying is essentially something that I am valuing for less than x, it is less than x if no resell market exists. Valuation isn't on the person selling, it's on the person buying, it's how our stock market and economy works. At the time of buying a loot box or soul pack in this case, yes it absolutely is valued at 10 dollars because it's unopened and has a chance of being worth that value. However once the box is opened that value becomes tangible based on how I view it.
To go back to Magic the gathering for example, yes absolutely when I buy a booster, the price of the booster unopened is equal to the purchase price because of the giant amount of possibilities that exist before it is opened. Once opened however it is now worth whatever is inside, because i have taken away a critical component of its previous valuation, which is to say I have removed the mystery and chance of the pack.
Now whether this is good or bad is irrelevant to whether it is gambling or a lootbox.
Whether this is good or bad depends as Slap said on them being upfront which means not only posting it on their site, but at a minimum putting firm % chance of getting rare or old souls, or else it is going to look highly predatory. Also they need to increase the amount of time to more than 10 hours, as that is not a high enough bar to stop folks from gambling when you could potentially get such an advantage with a hypothetical 2 year old soul, or rare or unique soul.
For example if you did nothing but open packs and test them for a year which would be a high expense you still have the chance of coming out ahead with an old or rare soul in terms of skills you want. But money isn't a limiter in this case, as games like Mass effect or hell even Warframe Kubrow skins from the recent polygon article have shown, if you make money the limiting factor, you are going to get folks with very clear gambling addictions and it is going to seem like you are preying on those folks.
Now whether you think preying on vulnerable people is good or bad is your subjective view, but for me it's bad, so imo they need to do as much as possible to make it not appealing to those types of people.
Let's be honest, the topic of this thread is not the title. It's not about whether or not soul packs are lootboxes. It's about Slap flat out accusing SBS of lying about why they currently don't have a publisher.
The point Slap is tiring to make is: "If it's true that SBS turned down publishers/investors because they don't want lootboxes then why do they have these Soulpacks that can be considered lootboxes?"
To that I still lose these questions:
When SBS was pitching their game, were these Soulpacks included in these discussions for their business model?
Did the publishers say that they wanted more and different kinds of "lootboxes"?
Were the publishers specifically requesting gear style lootboxes as an added revenue stream and SBS drew the line there?
Wellspring mentioned they spent hundreds of dollars on lootboxes in other games and found that others were willing to spend thousands on their own in the same game.
To a publisher, requesting something with that kind of return only makes good business sense.
Do you think this is where SBS walked away from the "evil" publishers because the publishers they spoke to were only willing to make a deal if the game included specific types of lootboxes?
Lootboxes that SBS was not willing to put in their game?
If you think this wasn't about whether or not these ARE lootboxes you are reading the wrong thread.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The "best" game out today is the one players imagine in their heads, before reality sets in and dashes their hopes.
Once the game starts to become a reality, any variation from the devs early designs will be viewed as a "betrayal" by some and they will turn around and become its harshest critics.
One reason many devs shy away from providing too many details on features early on is things tend to change so much by the time the game goes live.
Soulbound has gone the opposite direction by providing intricate details on how things are supposed to work, and IMO many of those features (i.e. animal breeding system) are complicated mini games which will be a challenge to deliver on.
Someone out there will be expecting the breeding system to be delivered exactly as promised, and if changed too much, or worse, put on hold or scrapped the outrage from former supporters will become epic.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If this isn't about some crusade with what SBS said about lootboxes being the sticking point in why they haven't yet got a publisher. Then... Why do you bring that up?
I mean... That's one of the main bullet points of your OP after all...
It is a different style of game, and to compare it to other games is like comparing apples and oranges. In addition, SBS will be working closely with the community on developing the features they have promised with the use of VoxElyria long before the actual game launches. They have proved themselves to listen to their community several times in the past, I see no reason why that would change during VoxElyria.
The majority of backers will have already experienced the game mechanics long before the game launches in VoxElyria and Kingdoms of Elyria.
Have SBS done everything well? No, but for the most part I don't have too big an issue with the way they handle things.
However soulpacks is where I start having issues, I know enough people in my life who have very real gambling addictions. Caspian's comments in chat don't seem to me like he is taking it as seriously as he should when considering how these items/lootboxes might prey on vulnerable folks.
For me it's worrisome, I absolutely do not care if they are pay 2 win, pay 2 advantage, pay 2 build or whatever. What I care about is that they are upfront in the way they are going to do lootboxes, that they will have very real hard % chance on the soulpacks in terms of rarity, and that they increase the time it takes to figure out if your soul is good enough from 10 hours to something more reasonable so that is it neither cost effective, nor enticing to try and buy tons and tons of items.
That's my chief complaint, loot boxes have a habit of preying on folks, and I want to see SBS declare that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these won't do the same. This isn't a mechanic debate, this is policy, protocol, and how they view their customers. This is something they can very easily communicate on because regardless of how soulpacks operate, they should be able to say without a doubt that they will be designed in a way to do as small of harm as possible.
Right now they haven't done that and Caspian has made very flippant statements on the issue that really hurt his point.
When did you first become aware of the RNG SoulPacks? Did you back knowing this? Did you know there were SoulPacks but not how they would work? Or were you surprised to learn they would have such a RNG mechanic?
Just curious.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So yeah you can color me surprised in this instance on the fact that there are rarities to these things and some are better or worse than others.
Edited for clarity
They are not called Lootboxes by the masses in Fortnight, and you are trying to use them to justify calling Soulcrates of CoE Lootboxes.. And you don't see how that's relevant?
And you respond to the very same post saying you assume they are purely cosmetic.
People do not CRY that they are lootboxes. It's understood what they are. People may "cry" that they are P2W but at least Epic is open and didn't hide the mechanic on page 3 of a random forum post. Simply going to the website and clicking on the standard package would show they get:
But it doesn't even MATTER if it's weapons, skins or souls... its the fact they are RNG lootboxes...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Soul packs are loot boxes of some degree or another. The discussion can not take away from that
So imho we should evolve the discussion to what can SBS do to mitigate the gambling aspect of this.
Introduce a hard "cap" on souls, you can buy 9 souls maximum, the 3 you get from the game and 2 packs. This reduces the aspects of p2w because you can't just spend spend spend until you get an epic soul.
Multiple people have mentioned gambling and the issue this has, I understand this more than most as I have a very addctive personality and have to be careful with things like gambling.
So how to mitigate the gambling aspect.... tbh I don't know at this moment in time but there must be some way...
Some people like lootboxes. I hate em... but not all games need to be for all people. I just think that people need to be given the information to make an informed choice. The first step was admitting to the mechanic. The next step is making that easily accessible to prospective customers.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I for one would prefer everyone to start with the basic soul and as the game ages all souls age.
the basic souls can still be themed into crafter etc, and each player gets one of each type of soul
There really isn't another step because if it's either RNG based or not. Putting a hard cap doesn't really help because people will just make another account. That just makes it a bit more costly but would not stop an addictive personality.
Again... WHY is the RNG portion needed? What does it add to the game? Simply take it out! If you need monetization (and they do) simply sell them directly. Would it be so bad to just take out the "old souls"? If they are really 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 packs then removing them would have no tangible impact on the game (other than money which can be recovered as described below)
Just let people buy a "Warrior" (Blacksmith, Miner, etc...) soul and customize it how they want. Put the actual cost you need on them. $5, $10, $25... just remove the RNG stuff.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Or let them buy these souls directly in the cash shop. There's tons of ways that they can go about this that wouldn't look as if they are preying on folks.
What boggles my mind is that Caspian has said https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/353270981021663234/427209139148816404/unknown.png
Which if he doesn't think most folks will buy them, why risk the controversy in the first place?
If you absolutely have to have differentiate the skills, rate this skill affinity as Nominal - normal learning, Small - accelerated learning through 5th skill level, Medium - accelerated learning through 12 skill level, and High - accelerated learning through 19th skill level. It even makes sense to price these souls differently, as this game clearly isn't bothered by claims of Pay to Win.
Put all the info up front so the purchaser knows exactly what they are buying, and how much it costs. Crafter Soul. Medium Blacksmith, Armorer. Small - Spear, Hammer. $12. This removes the randomness from the process.
If SBS simply can't live without some degree of randomness, introduce Souls using an auction system to a achieve whatever-the-market-will-bear pricing. Change the $12 to a 'Starting bid $12', and put an auction end date/time (maybe even hidden to prevent 'bid camping'). Then the only thing that is unknown is the final price. Whales can indulge themselves, and paupers can avoid this as suits their needs/wants/wallet.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
When you strike the right balance, it can add a lot for the player. If you don't, the word lootbox in its negative connotation will catch on like wildfire.
Just been catching up on the couple of interesting threads and come back here.
So I saw someone said about customising souls, I don't like this idea at character creation.
But what about...
All souls start off as new, and have an affinity for a certain profession type.
Then for their first life they benefit from a skill ramp for that first life (just a minor one) so you can further customise (during your life) that soul into, for example, blacksmithing.
Now on its subsequent lives that soul gets further skill ramps into blacksmithing but gets penalties into any other skill.
This way everyone has 3 souls they can "customise" (one combat, one crafting, one ????) at the start of the game.
This would also produce an additional revenue stream as instead of selling "loot boxes" they sell specialised (i.e. combat) clean souls that have the "new soul" skill ramp.