Pantheon: Rewards Beyond Loot!

SorensinThames

[yt]

Rewards in Pantheon Rise of the Fallen become something more than just loot, more than just a drop, they become a piece of knowledge, confidence, comradery, experience, and meaningful accomplishments. Chart your destiny with your party! I can not wait for this game!!

Kyleran

But wait you most certainly will

Ganksinatra

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

Kyleran

Ganksinatra said:

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

What the heck, they should add in a hard core, perma death mode which players can opt in for, like the ARPGs often do.  

You know, if you seriously wanted games with more challenge than WOW they already exist, but as is so often is the case for players claiming to desire this, you aren't playing them..for "reasons."

Kyleran

Rhoklaw said:

Kyleran said:

Ganksinatra said:

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

What the heck, they should add in a hard core, perma death mode which players can opt in for, like the ARPGs often do.  

You know, if you seriously wanted games with more challenge than WOW they already exist, but as is so often is the case for players claiming to desire this, you aren't playing them..for "reasons."

I think there are different modes of challenge in the MMO genre. Some are reflex based, like action combat MMOs with ridiculous combos requiring the muscle memory of a teenager.

In regards to the variance between, say World of Warcraft and Pantheon, the two have their own differences. While WoW focuses more on dungeon challenges, but still manages to throw in those QoL crutches like minimal death penalty or dungeon finders. It's moving away from the MMORPG and into the MMOish Destiny 2 lobby based aspect.

The basic social skill of the current WoW player is what I consider to be self destructive. In fact, outside of guild chat, you will rarely find anything meaningful, helpful or useful being discussed.

I'm not saying the current EQ community is anything to write home about either, but even EQ lost it's way a long time ago. In fact, I would have to say the Top 3 gaming communities right now are probably ESO, FFXIV, LOTRO and sometimes GW2.

I believe Pantheon is going to bring back the old community camaraderie that we lost over a decade ago. As much as people hated certain mechanics of old school EQ, it did in fact favor good community relations to survive in the game. People were more respectful and helpful back then and it felt good. I can't say this as much of current MMOs, mostly due to the fact that PvP being the main focus is a huge wound in maintaining any type of civility in a community. Unless of course you were Dark Age of Camelot, where realm pride was as real as every day patriots.

Now that is a great reason to support a particular game design, I'm all in if the reasoning is that it supports improved player communication or meaning behind activities such as travel times or what not.

I can't fathom the desire to add mechanics simply for the sake of making it take longer to progress, just "because."

No in game maps, why not? Especially as long as they are designed free of markers that turn them into satellite trackers. 

Loss of experience on death....why? Its not more meaninful,  have lost a single one of my near 500M skill points on my 6 accounts and yet I've countless "meaningful" encounters with both player and NPC alike. (Nothing like watch 3 weeks of mining vanish in an instant just as you are about to dock up at the marketplace.)

I have no issues with putting solid loss mechanics in games, but see no reason to go "backwards"

Sure, I lose a ship of ore in EVE it can hurt plenty, but no reason to roll me back so I can't even fly my ship or mine ore as well as I used to.

I'm not proposing fast leveling,  heck I prefer infinite and continuous progression actually, but I just can't support things like arduous and time wasting corpse runs.

Would rather the npcs just kill me, loot or destroy my gear and be done with it.  

Don't waste my time struggling to get back to my stuff.  (Though I do appeciate menchanics EQ had giving players special skills to help pull this off, thats a good socialization mechanic)

MadFrenchie

Ganksinatra said:

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

Gank Sinatra.

....

That is all.

MadFrenchie

Kyleran said:

Rhoklaw said:

Kyleran said:

Ganksinatra said:

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

What the heck, they should add in a hard core, perma death mode which players can opt in for, like the ARPGs often do.  

You know, if you seriously wanted games with more challenge than WOW they already exist, but as is so often is the case for players claiming to desire this, you aren't playing them..for "reasons."

I think there are different modes of challenge in the MMO genre. Some are reflex based, like action combat MMOs with ridiculous combos requiring the muscle memory of a teenager.

In regards to the variance between, say World of Warcraft and Pantheon, the two have their own differences. While WoW focuses more on dungeon challenges, but still manages to throw in those QoL crutches like minimal death penalty or dungeon finders. It's moving away from the MMORPG and into the MMOish Destiny 2 lobby based aspect.

The basic social skill of the current WoW player is what I consider to be self destructive. In fact, outside of guild chat, you will rarely find anything meaningful, helpful or useful being discussed.

I'm not saying the current EQ community is anything to write home about either, but even EQ lost it's way a long time ago. In fact, I would have to say the Top 3 gaming communities right now are probably ESO, FFXIV, LOTRO and sometimes GW2.

I believe Pantheon is going to bring back the old community camaraderie that we lost over a decade ago. As much as people hated certain mechanics of old school EQ, it did in fact favor good community relations to survive in the game. People were more respectful and helpful back then and it felt good. I can't say this as much of current MMOs, mostly due to the fact that PvP being the main focus is a huge wound in maintaining any type of civility in a community. Unless of course you were Dark Age of Camelot, where realm pride was as real as every day patriots.

Now that is a great reason to support a particular game design, I'm all in if the reasoning is that it supports improved player communication or meaning behind activities such as travel times or what not.

I can't fathom the desire to add mechanics simply for the sake of making it take longer to progress, just "because."

No in game maps, why not? Especially as long as they are designed free of markers that turn them into satellite trackers. 

Loss of experience on death....why? Its not more meaninful,  have lost a single one of my near 500M skill points on my 6 accounts and yet I've countless "meaningful" encounters with both player and NPC alike. (Nothing like watch 3 weeks of mining vanish in an instant just as you are about to dock up at the marketplace.)

I have no issues with putting solid loss mechanics in games, but see no reason to go "backwards"

Sure, I lose a ship of ore in EVE it can hurt plenty, but no reason to roll me back so I can't even fly my ship or mine ore as well as I used to.

I'm not proposing fast leveling,  heck I prefer infinite and continuous progression actually, but I just can't support things like arduous and time wasting corpse runs.

Would rather the npcs just kill me, loot or destroy my gear and be done with it.  

Don't waste my time struggling to get back to my stuff.  (Though I do appeciate menchanics EQ had giving players special skills to help pull this off, thats a good socialization mechanic)

Lol Kyleran, but if it were super easy to get back to your stuff, those special skills would be ineffective at creating interdependency!

I get your point.  Personally, the world being dangerous AF is reason enough.  If I'm spending 1/3 of my time fleeing or dying because my character isn't a super awesome badass incredible amazeballs superstar combatant compared the game's mobs, it will be enough to bring out my inner bro for the folks around me.

I will say I have no problem with something like XP debt ala CoH.  It doesn't reverse my progress, but it throttles it.  It was enough to make dying something I very much wanted to avoid, because the consequences lasted beyond merely some extra time spent returning to chip away at the content one more again.

Ganksinatra

Kyleran said:

Ganksinatra said:

I am super hyped for this game. I hope that they keep it niche. I mean, I know that will make it more likely to fail, but I want the challenge. I want the corpse runs. I want the risk of losing my gear. I want to lose xp when I die so that I have incentive to avoid it outside of a 30 second run. I want leveling to last awhile (maybe not "EQ at launch" awhile, but longer than "I went from 1 to 50 today"). 

I actually think presenting an MMO with a challenge like that will be the thing this genre needs. My 13 year old son wants to play this with me. He tires, as do I, of the loot treadmill that is WoW.

What the heck, they should add in a hard core, perma death mode which players can opt in for, like the ARPGs often do.  

You know, if you seriously wanted games with more challenge than WOW they already exist, but as is so often is the case for players claiming to desire this, you aren't playing them..for "reasons."

Name one. I'm not talking some Korean grind fest, or some 13 year old sociopath gankfest. I'm talking where the mobs require people to work together. Where there is no "cross server" nonsense fostering people to be anonymous douchenozzles to each other and instead understand that such things will be met with ostracizing. Where loot takes weeks and weeks, geared towards your class specifically, and required you to complete a long, harrowing quest.

I'll wait...

delete5230

- I like the idea of "no maps" 
- I'm OK with "corpse runs" 
Add them together, I'm not so sure ! 

1) I don't want to spend 25% of my time paying THAT penalty. 
2) Pantheon will be a community game, everyone in a group has to pay YOUR penalty, waiting for you !!!!

Wellspring

delete5230 said:

- I like the idea of "no maps" 
- I'm OK with "corpse runs" 
Add them together, I'm not so sure ! 

1) I don't want to spend 25% of my time paying THAT penalty. 
2) Pantheon will be a community game, everyone in a group has to pay YOUR penalty, waiting for you !!!!

It's easy. Don't get lost and also never die. Problem solved!

delete5230

Wellspring said:

delete5230 said:

- I like the idea of "no maps" 
- I'm OK with "corpse runs" 
Add them together, I'm not so sure ! 

1) I don't want to spend 25% of my time paying THAT penalty. 
2) Pantheon will be a community game, everyone in a group has to pay YOUR penalty, waiting for you !!!!

It's easy. Don't get lost and also never die. Problem solved!

It's easy in another way..... Don't let anyone else ever die, so you don't have to pay their penalty. Another problem solved !

svann

delete5230 said:

Wellspring said:

delete5230 said:

- I like the idea of "no maps" 
- I'm OK with "corpse runs" 
Add them together, I'm not so sure ! 

1) I don't want to spend 25% of my time paying THAT penalty. 
2) Pantheon will be a community game, everyone in a group has to pay YOUR penalty, waiting for you !!!!

It's easy. Don't get lost and also never die. Problem solved!

It's easy in another way..... Don't let anyone else ever die, so you don't have to pay their penalty. Another problem solved !

Dont ever group with someone that might get you killed!

Sinist

delete5230 said:

- I like the idea of "no maps" 
- I'm OK with "corpse runs" 
Add them together, I'm not so sure ! 

1) I don't want to spend 25% of my time paying THAT penalty. 
2) Pantheon will be a community game, everyone in a group has to pay YOUR penalty, waiting for you !!!!

That is part of the risk/reward. This "fear" and desire to avoid such time loss is what made certain classes, items, skills coveted. When you remove the serious threat or "annoyance" from the game, the benefit of having means to limit it become less worthy. 

Just think, in two basic concepts, we have layers of class skills, abilities, and item possibilities along with player skill honing that becomes apparent. 

No maps? Well, the person who pays attention to landmarks, or has maybe abilities that help them find their bearings (sense heading, sense corpse, sense undead, living, etc...) will be very useful. 

Run speed spells, invisibility, sneak, etc... become very important in that it helps you safely traverse environments that you have really no idea about. If something attacks you, where do you run? Where do you go? These abilities/spells/items that assist in it become very important.

Exploration becomes dangerous and exciting. Paying attention to where you are becomes even more important so that you can have an idea of how to get back to where you might be dying. Running through dangerous areas becomes risky.


I think people forget how important even the smallest game play element can have on an entire system. How something as simple as those two things can provide opportunities for numerous layers of game play features and function. 

It took decades of playing these games for me to realize how much was lost over the years when you removed even the smallest inconvenience. I think back to the worst times I had in EQ and I look back at them now as my most fond memories as it was the hardship, the annoyance, etc... that made the successes in the game rewarding.