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Crowfall may dissapoint point?

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    Also @MaxBacon - Campaigns are planned to last "for 1-3 months", or "up to a year" (all dev quotes) or some maybe 2-3 weeks or...nobody really knows before beta and real massive test of their engine. I also expect this to vary greatly from one Campaign to another.

    Anyway, these are only part of the universe - as I tried to explain above. Massive, crucial, continent sized part with "1-2000 concurrent players" planned, your typical MMO server but limited in time. I agree that neither their size nor population makes them persistent, but only their mutual connections such as export/import, EK buffs, travelling between Campaigns and from these to Eternal Kingdoms etc. 

    There is another way of seeing it: If you, for comparison, check how the gameplay actually looks like in so called "persistent" "MMOs" - these are basically single player games 90% of the time, with occassional smal scale instanced co-ops i.e. BGs, dungeons etc. From that point of view, even a single Crowfall Campaign is hundred times more persistent and more of an MMO than any of these, yet formally it is not.
    I know but what I was saying is that the defenition is just implying permanent worlds, so the fact they last from weeks to months is something that we can't just stretch the "persistent game world" defenition to afford, as the default when advertising a persistent game world is meant as a permanent one, it would just get rather confusing.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    lahnmir said:
    Going by Bartle's quote it is most definitely a persistent world then. Great, I am not confused anymore.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    The main worlds where the game happens are not persistent by that defenition, they end and cease to exist per design so they do not simply continue to exist and develop, one ends, another campaign world starts.

    If you tell me "play this PvP MMO with persistent game-world" I sure would not be expecting the game-world I was to play on to cease to exist once the "match" ends.
    Kyleranbadermal
  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 538
    games been on my radar because the artstyle looks great.. however i've not looked into it too much since i've been playing other stuff and it still seems to have quite some time to go before it's release.  

    so this may be a good place to ask. how is the customization? mainly looks and stuff like that.
    the goblin above compared it to WoW.. i guess i can live with that but what about armor pieces and stuff like that? i do enjoy playing dress up in my games :D 

    and also are you tied to one weapon type or do they have something like weapon swaps between ranged and melee? i've quite enjoyed that in newer games.
    Right now, there are very limited cosmetic character options. They will be adding more, but expect it to be light overall compared to other games. There won't be any sliders for adjusting height or weight. You will select from a predetermined set of faces and hair styles and facial hair. They will vary by race. 

    There was a recent article or video where they showed off different racial weapon styles. I can't remember exactly where it was though. Expect there to be different armor styles for each race too. These are things they can keep adding to post launch. We are supposed to be able to dye armor, but I have no idea if that will make it in by launch. There will be customization of guild heraldry.

    Most classes can wield more than one weapon type. I think Templars can only use 2-handed swords, and Clerics are strictly shield and throwing hammer. Duelists can do pistol and rapier or dual pistol. Knights have a lot of options, though they can't dual wield. Shield and a melee weapon, axe, mace or sword. They can also equip a bow if they use a discipline that unlocks it. This is another thing that will probably expand post-launch.

    At one point, races and classes were locked into archetypes. If you wanted to be a knight, you had to be a human. If you wanted to be a confessor, you had to be nethari. They have since bitten the bullet and separated races and classes, but there are only so many options they can give us right now. At some point, they have to get the game out the door. I think you'll see a much greater diversity as the game matures.
    hallucigenocideJamesGoblinKyleranOctagon7711
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,050
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    Going by Bartle's quote it is most definitely a persistent world then. Great, I am not confused anymore.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    The main worlds where the game happens are not persistent by that defenition, they end and cease to exist per design so they do not simply continue to exist and develop, one ends, another campaign world starts.

    If you tell me "play this PvP MMO with persistent game-world" I sure would not be expecting the game-world I was to play on to cease to exist once the "match" ends.
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    edited August 2018
    <snip>
    The goblin above compared it to WoW.. I guess I can live with that but what about armor pieces and stuff like that? I do enjoy playing dress up in my games :D 

    and also are you tied to one weapon type or do they have something like weapon swaps between ranged and melee? I've quite enjoyed that in newer games.
    You have choices of weapons and specs for different class/race combos, some are limited but more options will be added in the future. Say, you can spec your Warrior (to use WoW term for clarity) into ranged/bows plus some basic healing, while keeping his core Warrior abilities; That's an exotic example and I'm not sure how efficient it would be, but that illustrates how deep customization is.

    Speaking of weapon swapping, some classes even have melee/ranged/stealth trays (icon bars) with different skills in each, and auto swapping weapons; say, bow to dual daggers/swords if you are Ranger and swap from ranged to melee.

    Now, armor pieces - of course you will be able to put all kinds of stuff on yourself and then dye each and put guild emblems on some, but don't expect BDO level of customization (no height/face/butt sliders) and have in mind that gear in Crowfall decays, requires repairs and even so has limited duration; It's done to fuel the economy through trade and gives crafters/gatherers much more significance.

    @MaxBacon Maybe it wasn't clear from my previous that you'll be able to travel from one Campaign to another during these (I can explain this if need be), same as from any of them to some EKs (in two ways) and betweem EKs (obviously, limited by their rules, blacklists etc.) which includes moving of your belongings - including even land and houses.

    It's connected to export/import rules, victory conditions, queues and so on - say moving between Campaigns is supposed to be very slow, for obvious reasons, yet possible. Anyway, I have the feeling that you had a mental image of series of battlegrounds ("matches"), which players pick from a list, something like typical modern lobby based multiplayer crap, just with bigger instances; Crowfall is nowhere close to that for million reasons, starting from sheer size and inner server structure all the way up to the aforementioned connections.

    Edit: I see that @Arkade99 already covered this while I was typing.
    hallucigenocide
     W...aaagh?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    lahnmir said:
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That is not a world change, that is a set world "wipe", it's a reset and it starts again. All that the guilds did and built on it will be gone, its economy will be gone, and so forth. So I do not consider that to be a persistent world on what is expected by that defenition, the "time factor" is exactly what changes something that otherwise would be that persistent world that doesn't end, it just evolves and changes.
    Kyleran
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 4,037
    lahnmir said:
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    Going by Bartle's quote it is most definitely a persistent world then. Great, I am not confused anymore.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    The main worlds where the game happens are not persistent by that defenition, they end and cease to exist per design so they do not simply continue to exist and develop, one ends, another campaign world starts.

    If you tell me "play this PvP MMO with persistent game-world" I sure would not be expecting the game-world I was to play on to cease to exist once the "match" ends.
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Fortnite has day night cycles, things you construct stay and buildings that can be destroyed stay destroyed. Well, that is, until the match ends and everything resets.

    Is Fortnite a persistent MMO?
    Kyleranbadermal
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    People are disappointed before games even release now at days. I'm looking forward to this one and hoping for the best!
    KyleranUngood

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 538
    Xiaoki said:
    lahnmir said:
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    Going by Bartle's quote it is most definitely a persistent world then. Great, I am not confused anymore.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    The main worlds where the game happens are not persistent by that defenition, they end and cease to exist per design so they do not simply continue to exist and develop, one ends, another campaign world starts.

    If you tell me "play this PvP MMO with persistent game-world" I sure would not be expecting the game-world I was to play on to cease to exist once the "match" ends.
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Fortnite has day night cycles, things you construct stay and buildings that can be destroyed stay destroyed. Well, that is, until the match ends and everything resets.

    Is Fortnite a persistent MMO?
    Does it really matter? If Crowfall isn't as persistent as you want it to be, don't play it. An MMO doesn't need to be 100% persistent to be fun. Your character's skills will be persistent. Your EK will be persistent. The stuff you take out of campaigns will be persistent. It's just the campaigns themselves than have an end point. This was a major selling point of the game, the fact that there can actually be a winner and not just one group dominating a persistent server forever.

    I get that some people aren't in to that and that fine, but it isn't something that is going to change. 
    JamesGoblin
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,150
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    But does two months? Where do you draw the line? I am so confused right now...

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I don't think the time is relevant to the defenition, it has to be permanent.

    "A persistent world or persistent state world (PSW) is a virtual world which, by the definition by Richard Bartle, "continues to exist and develop internally even when there are no people interacting with it"."

    "A persistent world is a game environment that is permanent and dynamic. This is seen in many MMO's."


    So when pitching a Persistent World MMO, we would not be expecting the actual core of the game being played on matches where the game world ceases to exist when the match ends, so better not dilute yet another defenition.
    If you are going to quote things you shouldn't drop important parts. Richard Bartle talked a lot about MUD, games he talked about being persistent. If you had played MUD you would know that Crowfall persistence is similar to most of what existed in MUD.

    What matters is the context and not the words of the separate quotes.
    JamesGoblin
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That is not a world change, that is a set world "wipe", it's a reset and it starts again. All that the guilds did and built on it will be gone, its economy will be gone, and so forth. So I do not consider that to be a persistent world on what is expected by that defenition, the "time factor" is exactly what changes something that otherwise would be that persistent world that doesn't end, it just evolves and changes.
    Just a couple corrections - "all that guilds did and built on it will be gone" - no, they'll be able to export a bunch of stuff, maybe even whole buildings - depending on server export rules and whether they won or lost the war; I guess you knew this, just typed quickly; It's one of many differences between persistent universe and a bunch of temporary servers.

    "Its economy will be gone" - yes and no, namely Campaign exports(and imports too) will be the basis of Crowfall economy. You won't be able to do much in your EK - be it building or crafting, trading...without all that "gone" stuff from Campaigns, and you won't even think of going to import Campaigns without crafted/bought gear and mats to, well, import there.
     W...aaagh?
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    I wish the 'MMO definition' debate would die a quick sudden death.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    By the generally accepted definition of persistence as it relates to MMOs....no, Crowfall will not be persistent.

    There will be some forms of carry-over such as resources etc based on the campaign's ruleset but the world does indeed "end" for the next campaign.

    In fact, it's built on the premise of it not being persistent...and will be (I believe) it's greatest strength compared to other PvP games available today.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,050
    Dammit, with the Fortnite example it seems that time IS most definitely a factor for persistance, there must be no end or it is a match etc. I am back to being completely confused. That is the word right? Confused? Or.... Dammit!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    KyleranJamesGoblin
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    But the match always ends because the world keeps changing to become less and less livable, even when no one is playing. These worlds need no players to do their thing, they just have an end. They have seasons, day and night cycles, the Hunger taking over etc. By that definition they are very persistent, especially when the factor 'length of time' is taken out of the equation like you mentioned earlier. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    That is not a world change, that is a set world "wipe", it's a reset and it starts again. All that the guilds did and built on it will be gone, its economy will be gone, and so forth. So I do not consider that to be a persistent world on what is expected by that defenition, the "time factor" is exactly what changes something that otherwise would be that persistent world that doesn't end, it just evolves and changes.
    In a persistent world, does a house on fire burn to ash, or just stay burning?   The campaigns take place in 'burning houses'.    The eternal kingdoms are the eternal places.  The dying worlds are infected with the Hunger and will turn to ash.  No sense not looting rescuing useful bits.  The crow imagery is even depicted in their element of a scavenger.

    The whole set of mechanics is integrated into the world lore.  And also designed to deal with some of the problems that come with PvP gameplay.   
    JamesGoblin

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    One of the reasons the worlds decay is because generally area of control stagnants with a guild or two in control.  This lack of permanence is to reset this in game design.  
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,130
    I much, much, much prefer cartoony graphics over photorealistic aimed graphics.  One ages well, the other doesn't.  One looks great and artistic to me, and the other just looks like way too overly expensive foppery.  

    And beyond that - cartoony graphics versus triple A photorealistic aimed graphics usually means a game focused on gameplay versus one focused on superficial nonsense where all decisions are based on how it looks, which means spending 90% of the huge, huge budget on graphics means a broader demographics, including children with simple minds and no attention - and gameplay that is build around their simple minds and lack of attention.  So no complexity, no actual character customization (other than the mislabeled use of the term to describe Barbie dress up that kids love and their simple minds understand), combat geared to build up the confidence of small children instead of being good and providing a fun challenge for adults, etc.  The list can go on and on and on.

    But, it sounds like the OP's dream game is my nightmare.  He should feel good knowing the market definitely caters to him and his kind over adults that enjoy the game part of games.  
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Arglebargle said:
    In a persistent world, does a house on fire burn to ash, or just stay burning?   The campaigns take place in 'burning houses'.    The eternal kingdoms are the eternal places.  The dying worlds are infected with the Hunger and will turn to ash.  No sense not looting rescuing useful bits.  The crow imagery is even depicted in their element of a scavenger.

    The whole set of mechanics is integrated into the world lore.  And also designed to deal with some of the problems that come with PvP gameplay.   
    In a persistent world you could perhaps build the house, and the house could burn down, the world (aka the gameplay field for all players) would keep going on.

    It's just the very design of the game that makes it so, as @Kajidourden mentioned, the actual premise of Crowfall, one MMO where the game world isn't persistent, it has a beginning, it changes and then just dies out and ceases to exist, and then you just play another campaign.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    badermal said:
    there is  no persistent world  
    there is  no character customation (every character looks same in race )
    game world looks like it made of plastic 
    characters are looks like they are from cartoon 
    combat system looks like a mess  really lack of melee and we seeing so many particles effect from magic
    seems like a cartoon heroes fighting  instead of medieval war game
    how can anyone take the game serious ? maybe it can be played for fun but not for  medieval war
    i mean they can have lowest graphics as possible it not a problem but it dont need to cartoonish  as there is difference between cartoon and low graphics (like mortal darkfall wurm graphics)  and how can this be shadowbane like game?

    i dont know if you guys can understand but how funny it would be if we having a siege with many catapult treb and just seeing a cartoon character fighting 
    Well, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I like the Graphic Style of Crowfall, so the "Cartoon" aspect of Crowfall, is a sale point.

    Also, Crowfall is not a Medieval Battle Simulator, it is a fantasy battle game. 

    But to each their own if the graphics are a deal breaker for you, then that is what is, again, for me, the Graphics are something I like about the game. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760
    This thread disappoint points me.
    QuizzicalJamesGoblin

    I've got the straight edge.

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,130
    MaxBacon said:
    Arglebargle said:
    In a persistent world, does a house on fire burn to ash, or just stay burning?   The campaigns take place in 'burning houses'.    The eternal kingdoms are the eternal places.  The dying worlds are infected with the Hunger and will turn to ash.  No sense not looting rescuing useful bits.  The crow imagery is even depicted in their element of a scavenger.

    The whole set of mechanics is integrated into the world lore.  And also designed to deal with some of the problems that come with PvP gameplay.   
    In a persistent world you could perhaps build the house, and the house could burn down, the world (aka the gameplay field for all players) would keep going on.

    It's just the very design of the game that makes it so, as @Kajidourden mentioned, the actual premise of Crowfall, one MMO where the game world isn't persistent, it has a beginning, it changes and then just dies out and ceases to exist, and then you just play another campaign.
    I was looking into Rend and may have tried it if not for the fact they reset the characters along with their campaigns.  Since resetting my character is a deal breaker for me, I can understand why a non-permanent world would be a deal breaker for others.  

    I often wonder why so many games that have or could easily have different servers with different rules could open up their market to big groups of new players refuse to make some servers that would remove or work with people on items that are deal breakers to those groups.

    An obvious example would be full loot pvp games with lots of small servers and lots of people saying they would play, or at least try, the game if there was a restricted looting.  Or games that appeal to non-pvp players that refuse to have a no-pvp server.  It doesn't matter if those servers would suck or undermine the point of the game.  As long as it didn't for the people that play on them.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    To be fair Crowfall has a rather unique design that makes it difficult to slot into traditional definitions.

    It is persistent, in some places and not in others.  The closest comparison I can come with is GW1, where the lobbies were persistent (though mostly static) while the gameplay occurred in small matches of short duration.

    CF has the persistent guild worlds but unlike a lobby permit some customization.   It's game play is a series of matches though can involve far greater player numbers,  longer duration and the ability to join and leave for the duration.

    No idea if every player was to leave a specific region or world if they would still persist,  but devs have promised they will continue to go through the 4 seasons and decay regardless of player presence.

    Again, best example I can come up with and standard MMO conventions don't easily apply.

    Perhaps we can call it a persistent virtual world*  letting the asterisk denote there is a bit of a qualifier somewhere in the fine print.

    ;)

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  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    MaxBacon said:
    lahnmir said:
    But does two months? Where do you draw the line? I am so confused right now...

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I don't think the time is relevant to the defenition, it has to be permanent.

    "A persistent world or persistent state world (PSW) is a virtual world which, by the definition by Richard Bartle, "continues to exist and develop internally even when there are no people interacting with it"."
    Crowfall would fulfill that part definition because it continues to exists and develop internally even if all players logged out.

    MaxBacon said:

    "A persistent world is a game environment that is permanent and dynamic. This is seen in many MMO's."
    Crowfall would not fill that part of definition, but where did you even get that part? I wasn't able to Google any other source than giantbomb.com
    JamesGoblin
     
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    I predict that no MMORPG in existence today will still have servers running one trillion years from now.  Does that mean that they're not persistent?
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Crowfall seems to be aiming for an intermediate level of persistence.  It's certainly more persistent than an instanced dungeon that you clear in an hour before leaving to let it reset.  But it's also less persistent than a game world that stays available to you forever.

    Still, other MMORPGs commonly don't have the game world stay available forever.  Many MMORPGs have seasonal events that come and go.  Guild Wars 2 has a weird obsession with making changes and then undoing them.  A Tale in the Desert outright resets the world entirely every couple of years or so.

    But consider also the effects of an expansion on a typical MMORPG.  In one sense, the world that was there before still is, and they've only added to it.  But in another sense, the old world is deprecated and superseded by the new.  The new portion gives more gold, more experience, stronger gear, and so forth.  Everything that existed before the new expansion is deprecated and in an important sense, gone.

    Sure, you can still use that old sword, but you're not going to slay dragons with it anymore.  You're not going to be able to kill 10 new expansion rats even.  In an important sense, the expansion closed the old world and opened another.  Were it not so, there wouldn't be people clamoring for Vanilla WoW or time-locked servers in various games that brought back the old world for a time.
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