Yeap, they abused not only the trust of original backers but also the government Payroll Protection Program, by taking out loans which they never intended to repay, one of which is already marked as "forgiven" on public website which lists all these loans to all companies.
I don't understand this kind of mentality. Why is it "abuse" for small businesses to apply for PPP? I mean, that's exactly what the program is for. Besides, there are rules and if they are not complied with, the money has to be paid back.
Do they genuinely have 30 employees who couldn't work as a result of COVID? Game development seems like the sort of thing amenable to working from home. And if they do have 30 employees, then why aren't they making progress faster? Are 28 of those employees just concept artists?
how do you get a loan without having any earnings from your business?
Is it hard to get a small-business loan? It can be challenging to qualify for a small-business loan without a strong personal score (starting around 700) and a solid cash flow from your business. Those are among common reasons why your business loan application can be denied.
Do they genuinely have 30 employees who couldn't work as a result of COVID?
That's not what the PPP is for. AFAIK it is direct economic aid to maintain jobs, not to pay the wages of workers suffering from COVID.
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't mean employees with active COVID infections. I meant employees who would have worked if not for the pandemic, but had to lock down and not work because of the pandemic. That's what PPP was for, and I'm very skeptical that the company had 30 full-time employees in that boat.
Do they genuinely have 30 employees who couldn't work as a result of COVID?
That's not what the PPP is for. AFAIK it is direct economic aid to maintain jobs, not to pay the wages of workers suffering from COVID.
I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't mean employees with active COVID infections. I meant employees who would have worked if not for the pandemic, but had to lock down and not work because of the pandemic. That's what PPP was for, and I'm very skeptical that the company had 30 full-time employees in that boat.
I think there's something fishy going on with this project by now, i think Mark Jacobs knows this project will never see the light of day but is using the funding he's gotten to live his life while just waiting long enough to get the engine into selling shape.
They're about to hit 9 years and the game still doesn't have all the races or classes, does that not blow anyone elses minds? They're still showing off CONCEPT ART of the races LOL
Nobody and i say this seriously... nobody plays that Ragnarok game and im 100% sure nobody is working on it either. It was a front to get more funding and resources for Camelot Unchained. I think by the end of 2022 MJ will finally shut it down, there's no way they have anymore cash and probably have a skeleton team just banging away on the game.
It's over and i think MJ knows it's over but doesn't have the guts to pull the plug. He's lost 98% of the community's trust anyways and he has to realize that, right?
Nobody and i say this seriously... nobody plays that Ragnarok game and im 100% sure nobody is working on it either. It was a front to get more funding and resources for Camelot Unchained. I think by the end of 2022 MJ will finally shut it down, there's no way they have anymore cash and probably have a skeleton team just banging away on the game.
Releasing FSR into EA was not a smart move in my opinion. But CSE will not go bankrupt because of it. Because the budget for the horde shooter FSR was raised separately from CU. Only the code base is shared between the two games.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's the number one and most public indicator of CSE's solvency ATM.
This is simply an indication that the refunds are not included in CU's development budget. It is very likely that MJ pays the refunds out of his own pocket.
It would be much more worrying if they could no longer pay salaries or leases.
There's the number one and most public indicator of CSE's solvency ATM.
This is simply an indication that the refunds are not included in CU's development budget.
If you sell a product and advertise refunds but do not include that in your budget… well that would just be utterly incompetent. But maybe you are right as it seems to fit the rest of the development pattern.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
CU is not planned as a successor to DAoC, and even if they wanted to, they don't have the licence for it.
About the engine: At first they tested commercially available engines like Unity or UE, but concluded that the necessary modifications were not worth it, hence the in-house engine.
CU may not have
been planned as the direct successor for DAOC (aka DAOC 2 or like EQ1 to
EQ2), however it was certainly billed as the RVR Spiritual Successor to
DAOC.
For finances,
of course it’s worse if they can’t pay the staff, not many people can afford to
work without bringing in some type of income. Whether he pays the promised refunds
out of his own pocket, from development funds, from investment funds or whatever
it has been like a slow, never ending bandage removal.
For the
sites that still bother to cover this game, the reddit discussion areas for
this game, many posts, threads, sections are related to refunds. Start talking
about anything game related to Camelot Unchained, creating a game loop, adding
new character models, revamping the combat and at some point, it becomes about
refunds yet again (not sure about the discord). I can’t see a reason why
he dragged it out originally (sure he was worried about taking a system home to
perform refunds on during covid, when many lesser companies, let alone a
software development company, did just that) other than just not wanting to do
it / waiting for the heat to die down after the second game or not having the funds.
As far as
the multi-year refund fiasco goes the damage is already done. The time to
resolve that was just after the announcement of the second game when people
were up in arms. If those that requested refunds were appeased at that time, things
certainly would have settled down over the last 2 years. Now he can just do a
couple a month, legally say he is still working on them and onwards we go. If
he cleared them all out tomorrow, I don’t think it would go very far to
appeasing people at this point.
As far as
the multi-year refund fiasco goes the damage is already done. The time to
resolve that was just after the announcement of the second game when people
were up in arms. If those that requested refunds were appeased at that time, things
certainly would have settled down over the last 2 years.
I have to agree. The refunds could have been handled much, much better. Actually, we are (almost) in the worst-case situation IMO.
I think there's something fishy going on with this project by now, i think Mark Jacobs knows this project will never see the light of day but is using the funding he's gotten to live his life while just waiting long enough to get the engine into selling shape.
I think selling the "engine" is a bigger pipe dream than launching the game.
There are already extremely polished and well established game engines on the market. Who is going to buy an engine made for a specific type of mmo that is in a fairly niche-genre and from what I have seen has mediocre performace anyway?
And there is so much more behind an engine, like documentation, ongoing support, upgradabilty, etc. The bar for releasing a competitive game engine in this space is way higher than for a game.
They had a great plan: make a niche-market mmo in the RvR genre, which is underrepresented and has relatively little demands for art assets and ongoing expansions. Draw the blueprint for the game from an already famous and relatively successful RvR game.
Despite all of the problems and delays, Camelot Unchained remains the only MMORPG that I am excited about. The design is very exciting for me, and they are the only company I am aware of that are trying to fix a whole bunch of problems with the genre that I personally dislike.
Is it disappointing that we're 9 years in with no game? Of course
But, I don't crowdfund, I have zero money invested in the game, so I just don't have any sort of emotional investment. If / when the game gets to a point where I can pay money and then play something, I'll make my usual value judgement and then either play or not. Until then, its really not worth wasting energy.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Despite all of the problems and delays, Camelot Unchained remains the only MMORPG that I am excited about. The design is very exciting for me, and they are the only company I am aware of that are trying to fix a whole bunch of problems with the genre that I personally dislike.
Is it disappointing that we're 9 years in with no game? Of course
But, I don't crowdfund, I have zero money invested in the game, so I just don't have any sort of emotional investment. If / when the game gets to a point where I can pay money and then play something, I'll make my usual value judgement and then either play or not. Until then, its really not worth wasting energy.
I did crowdfund it in the KSer, never have requested a refund, so I reserve the "right", to waste energy dog piling on it until release or closure, either way doesn't matter much to me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
there wont be unchained but they are hoping to sell their game engine for big $$$ but whos dumb enough to buy it lol. If u are big gaming company making a new mmo would u go out and buy their unproven game engine and after 5 years of development u realized the engine is piece of crap or just used proven game engine like unreal3, 4.
there wont be unchained but they are hoping to sell their game engine for big $$$ but whos dumb enough to buy it lol. If u are big gaming company making a new mmo would u go out and buy their unproven game engine and after 5 years of development u realized the engine is piece of crap or just used proven game engine like unreal3, 4.
Unreal cannot support MMO numbers
Unity cannot support MMO numbers
Lumberyard cannot support MMO numbers
In fact, I can't think of a single off-the-shelf engine that can. All existing engines need to be extensively modified to support MMO numbers, and most end up performing badly. Like, really really badly.
So, if CSU can finish their engine, and if it works as intended, then it could be a real game changer for the genre.
Whether they can finish it, and whether it works, remains to be seen of course!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
there wont be unchained but they are hoping to sell their game engine for big $$$ but whos dumb enough to buy it lol. If u are big gaming company making a new mmo would u go out and buy their unproven game engine and after 5 years of development u realized the engine is piece of crap or just used proven game engine like unreal3, 4.
Unreal cannot support MMO numbers
Unity cannot support MMO numbers
Lumberyard cannot support MMO numbers
In fact, I can't think of a single off-the-shelf engine that can. All existing engines need to be extensively modified to support MMO numbers, and most end up performing badly. Like, really really badly.
So, if CSU can finish their engine, and if it works as intended, then it could be a real game changer for the genre.
Whether they can finish it, and whether it works, remains to be seen of course!
Off-the shelf engine may not support many players, but with simple modifications made in VERY short time - they easily can. CCP, the creators of EVE Online, did a test case scenario where they modified UE4 client and used some custom server code to build "Aether Wars" demo where over 3000 of actual LIVE PLAYERS participated with an acceptable performance, and they did it in a very short amount of time. You can Google "EVE Aether Wars" for details.
Meanwhile, I logged into Camelot Unchained's engine test (they call it "Beta" but it feels like "pre-alpha") today. There was only one person except me on whole server. One. I went to their "Golden Plains" area, ran around a little. When I faced particular spot in open area - my FPS dropped from 60 to 25FPS. With no other player models around me, just static grass and static trees and static rocks, with very low texture detail and low model detail for all of them. I actually made screenshots of that performance drop which I can openly post anywhere (I don't care at all if I will lose "Beta" access at this point). And these huge "performance drops" existed in various areas (before "Golden Plains" was added I've experienced these in different area) of the current "Beta" for over a year already.
The only way CSE's engine can be a "game changer" is if CSE would hire 100-200 more people and spend 10 more years on improving it, but it's obvious they simply don't have money anymore to do anything like that.
Comments
Is it hard to get a small-business loan? It can be challenging to qualify for a small-business loan without a strong personal score (starting around 700) and a solid cash flow from your business. Those are among common reasons why your business loan application can be denied.
Well, there's this one, but I'm afraid that every peasant and his wife will have it.
I'm waiting for the 20k tier at least, otherwise why bother? If you can't look down on the 10k beggars, what's the point of playing?
The good thing is, the game has been ready for the past 6.5 years...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So there is a connection
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So shall we rename it CFU then? Cluster Fuck Unchained?
They're about to hit 9 years and the game still doesn't have all the races or classes, does that not blow anyone elses minds? They're still showing off CONCEPT ART of the races LOL
Nobody and i say this seriously... nobody plays that Ragnarok game and im 100% sure nobody is working on it either. It was a front to get more funding and resources for Camelot Unchained. I think by the end of 2022 MJ will finally shut it down, there's no way they have anymore cash and probably have a skeleton team just banging away on the game.
It's over and i think MJ knows it's over but doesn't have the guts to pull the plug. He's lost 98% of the community's trust anyways and he has to realize that, right?
There's the number one and most public indicator of CSE's solvency ATM.
Company is living on a prayer.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
CU may not have been planned as the direct successor for DAOC (aka DAOC 2 or like EQ1 to EQ2), however it was certainly billed as the RVR Spiritual Successor to DAOC.
For finances, of course it’s worse if they can’t pay the staff, not many people can afford to work without bringing in some type of income. Whether he pays the promised refunds out of his own pocket, from development funds, from investment funds or whatever it has been like a slow, never ending bandage removal.
For the sites that still bother to cover this game, the reddit discussion areas for this game, many posts, threads, sections are related to refunds. Start talking about anything game related to Camelot Unchained, creating a game loop, adding new character models, revamping the combat and at some point, it becomes about refunds yet again (not sure about the discord). I can’t see a reason why he dragged it out originally (sure he was worried about taking a system home to perform refunds on during covid, when many lesser companies, let alone a software development company, did just that) other than just not wanting to do it / waiting for the heat to die down after the second game or not having the funds.
As far as the multi-year refund fiasco goes the damage is already done. The time to resolve that was just after the announcement of the second game when people were up in arms. If those that requested refunds were appeased at that time, things certainly would have settled down over the last 2 years. Now he can just do a couple a month, legally say he is still working on them and onwards we go. If he cleared them all out tomorrow, I don’t think it would go very far to appeasing people at this point.
There are already extremely polished and well established game engines on the market. Who is going to buy an engine made for a specific type of mmo that is in a fairly niche-genre and from what I have seen has mediocre performace anyway?
And there is so much more behind an engine, like documentation, ongoing support, upgradabilty, etc. The bar for releasing a competitive game engine in this space is way higher than for a game.
They had a great plan: make a niche-market mmo in the RvR genre, which is underrepresented and has relatively little demands for art assets and ongoing expansions. Draw the blueprint for the game from an already famous and relatively successful RvR game.
Wtf happened?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Meanwhile, I logged into Camelot Unchained's engine test (they call it "Beta" but it feels like "pre-alpha") today. There was only one person except me on whole server. One. I went to their "Golden Plains" area, ran around a little. When I faced particular spot in open area - my FPS dropped from 60 to 25FPS. With no other player models around me, just static grass and static trees and static rocks, with very low texture detail and low model detail for all of them. I actually made screenshots of that performance drop which I can openly post anywhere (I don't care at all if I will lose "Beta" access at this point). And these huge "performance drops" existed in various areas (before "Golden Plains" was added I've experienced these in different area) of the current "Beta" for over a year already.
The only way CSE's engine can be a "game changer" is if CSE would hire 100-200 more people and spend 10 more years on improving it, but it's obvious they simply don't have money anymore to do anything like that.