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The last of its kind
checkthis500
Member Posts: 1,236
I was playing WoW last night and I realized that it's the last of its kind. It is the last successful pick your class, level up, do some pvp, reroll, depend on the developers for content type of game.
All of the new games coming out DnL, AoC, SoR(already out), and EVE(already out) are geared towareds the players making the content and the developers just making the environment they run around in. It's interesting to me that MMO's are changing into more than just leveling and being uber, but to interacting successfully with the other players in the game.
To me it seems like in the games that focus on the players to give the content, the players actually feel like they're a part of the game and they're truly dynamic and not just doing what the NPC's tell them to do.
(By the way, I'm not bashing WoW. I think WoW is a great game for the type of game it is. And it's the last great one of it's kind.)
It started with games like UO and EQ, and this era is ending with games like WoW and EQ2.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
Comments
You came to this conclusion during a 2 day trial?
You missed SWG on that list. SWG offered an open ended content environment. Open ended content can easily equate to a boring game, such is the case with SWG and imo Eve. I think a game needs to facilitate content as much as having 'canned' content.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Well I've heard about every aspect of the game from my roommate who has played WoW since release.
I seriously think that WoW perfected the Fantasy MMO genre (minus high-end graphics). My argument is that none will come after it that are the same style, because it's already been perfected. The other games out there are aiming towards a more, player-defined universe.
So I finally decided to try it out rather than just have an outsider's opinion, and everything he has told me is right. There's a big difference in SWG and EVE however. And that's simply that in SWG you don't "change" the flow of the game with your actions. In EVE you do, but this isn't the EVE discussion forum.
The fact is there are about 5 aspects to WoW that are in every Fantasy MMO like it:
1. Quests
2. Uber Gear
3. Canned PvP, in other words you're told who you can kill and when and where. (As opposed to open PvP in which you're just told "where" you can kill people.)
4. Leveling
5. Roleplaying, but only on a miniscule level.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
It's the last 'successful' MMO of it's kind?
What?
I play WoW with a RL friend (which is the only reason I play it) but there ARE games that are just as good and ARE successful.
DAOC: Been out over 3 years now, very successful with over 200k subs. Better PVP than WoW by far, comparable PVE.
EQ2: Similar game to WoW, not quite as good at PvP but on 'par' with WoW. PVE on par with WoW. Questing on par with WoW, Class diversity on par with WoW. Far superior crafting to WoW. Better graphics than WoW.
Lineage II: Excellent PVP - Better than WoW not quite as good as DAOC in some ways, better in others. Decent PVE but not as good as WoW, EQ2 or DAOC. Very successful with over 2 million subs.
UO: Still has over 100,000 subs. Most open ended MMORPG in existance. Excellent PVP and decent PVE.
AC1: Still around. Still 'successful' though on the decline.
Those are just off the top of my head. WoW is HARDLY the 'last of it's kind'. Especially with such titles as "lord of the rings online" and "Dungeons & Dragons Online" coming out. Both of which have amazing potential (though I'm not certain Turbine is up to the task). And predicting the failure of games like Irth, D&L, etc, when they're barely out the door or not out the door yet is silly.
WoW's a good game. Don't get me wrong. I play it. But saying it's the "last of it's kind" is the epitome of silliness.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
See that's the reason I wrote the words "last" and "successful" and "of its kind" together. No it's not the "only successful" game, no it's not the "last of its kind" but it is the "last successful game of its kind." lol Also by "last" I was referring to it coming out after awesome games such as UO and DAoC.
EQ2: I agree it is on par in some cases, but if everything is on par "except" pvp, then WoW is better.
Lineage 2: The PvP there is up for grabs. I hated it, others like it. The karma system was crap. as well as the deleveling. I dont think you should ever be able to lose a level of exp once you've gained it. And again you say "not as good as WoW."
Also I was predicting the "success" of DnL by it going to this new style of gameplay that is only seen in select few. I forgot UO. It's nicely open-ended and the players do play a role in the flow of the game.
Again when I say "its kind" I said it is the last successful pick your class, level up, do some pvp, reroll, depend on the developers for content type of game.
I'm with you. I like it, but I think that this style of game is coming to a close. (Thankfully imo)
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I see your point, but I doubt WoW will be the last successful mmo of it's kind. If anything I can see other companies making games geared toward this model.
Besides, how do you measure success? By subscriptions, longevity, just getting out of the door (lol)?
There's nothing that prevents you from creating your own content in WoW. At level 60 I prefer open air events to BGs and instances. Since the majority of content is spoon fed to you, I believer players keep believing that once you reach lvl 60.
I think part of the reason why WoW is so successful is that it caters to the casual player. Personally, I hope this trend continues.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I dunno I think EQ2 is plenty successful as well as it's up over 400k subs now and the two games are more alike than any other two MMORPG's on the market. I don't agree that this is a dying breed either. Both LOTR and D&DO are planning to be of a similar venue. As is the upcoming release of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes from Brad McQuaid and crew over at Sigil. That's 3 upcoming MMORPG's that are being released in the same venue as WoW and EQ2 with release dates as far out as sometime in 2007.
I don't think this particular style of MMORPG is done yet. I think that WoW is currently the biggest game in this 'mode' of MMORPG but it's not the last nor is it the best. I would possibly agree that it's currently the most successful in this type.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I agree. I don't think this venue is done yet. I'm aware of D&D, LOTR, and Vanguard, and I think they'll be good. But I don't think they'll be anywhere close to the level that WoW is. (In the combined sense of subs and just an allout well-made game.)
I look forward to these, but my gaming experience will probably lean me towards the games that are trying for that different route. Because there's only so many times that I can go kill x amount of enemies and bring back x amount of items. And there's only so many times I can be a knight/mage/rogue in a world that my actions make no difference in.
Despite how my original post sounded, I also don't agree that WoW is the "best", but I do think it is the most successful. When it comes to "best" I wouldn't be able to say. I lose interest with this venue within 3 months, but thats just because I'm a firm believer in having one main char and using alts simply for crafting/selling purposes.
(By the way, I'm not trying to defend my original post as much as discussing and adding on to it, because that's the reason I made this thread. For discussion. I'm in no way bashing or promoting any particular game. I'm merely commenting on what I have observed. So don't flame me too much.
)
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I think WoW will be very difficult for anyone to top in number of subscribers for many reasons.
However, *IF* Turbine can pull off the FEEL of LOTR then LOTRO has a very solid chance of supplanting WoW. It's on Turbine to deliver. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of confidence in their ability. I REALLY wish Mythic had gotten that title rather than Turbine. If Mythic were developing LOTRO it would be on my 'most anticipated' list for sure.
AD&DO gets a lot of hype but AD&D is a pretty niche game. And most people that play it aren't really looking for your typicall "MMO" they're looking for a story that revolves around their characters and there isn't an MMO out there that delivers that kind of personalized feel to the game. There are some EXCELLENT CRPG's out there that have pulled off that feel (the NeverWinter Nights, Vampire and KOTOR games being the most recent, and best, examples of that) but MMORPG's, by their very nature, don't do it well at all. It's possible that, with some key instancing, a next gen MMORPG could possibly pull it off but again we're talking about Turbine here and I just don't have a lot of confidence in them.
I hope I'm wrong. I'm an ages old Tolkien fan and having played AD&D since before there WAS AD&D I really hope they pull off that special feel that AD&D has. But I don't have a lot of confidence in them doing it.
If they manage to do that for one, or both, of those titles They'll surpass WoW by miles. If they don't? Then WoW will remain the current king.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Just an aside. This board can definately use more posters such as yourself : )
Unfortunatley there are few discussion threads and many more flame fests.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
EDIT: I apologize for the length my imagination started running and my mouth started watering.
I was looking forward to LOTRO until I found out that it was still on the path of the LOTR books.
Here's my dream MMO when it comes to LOTR. Stage it in the Second Age. Before Sauron is back in power and when the world is generally at peace, yet you still have the good and evil factions. There is SO much history to the Second Age that people are unaware of it would be a whole new world. Not to mention there would be so much you could do in that era, because there wouldn't be a war, but there would be facitons that hate eachother. And you could take over towns, and cities, etc. without corrupting the books because it won't be based on the books. Not to mention the Middle Earth world is massive enough to be on a server cluster that everyone plays on.
Yes this is off topic, but you mentioned LOTRO and I had to comment.
I think to give people the whole story surrounding their character feel, it needs to be a persistent, changing world, that changes on the whim of the players. For instance, the players make the missions so that they make missions that help their guild, for instance if they need animal hides to make leather armor for their guild members, they should be able to create a mission to kill x amount of a certain kind of animal and bring back the hides for a sum of money. That way both parties are benefitting form the mission. I also think that wars should be declared between guilds in such a way that they come up with conditions of surrender/conditions of truce, as well as planned battles. And these warring guilds should be allowed to fight in cities and policed areas as long as they have a war declared between them.
I do think that guilds are too small. I think that guilds should conduct themselves like corps in EVE and make alliances. Which means huge fights, and not just skirmish style battles. To see something like this in a land-based fantasy MMO would be wicked. Simply because you'd establish borders to your territory based on either towers that you can take, or forts or cities, and you can claim sovereignty over a region depending on how much of it you control. Guilds would just be a part of the larger alliance. For instance you'd have crafting guilds, and infantry guilds, and mage guilds, etc. etc. all under one common banner. This way you can be a part of a huge effort, but still be close-knit with the people that share common gaming interests with you.
But these are just a few of my dreams for an MMO
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I agree with you 100% I would LOVE to see this ability. EVE has it but EVE is so slow paced that most folks find it boring (myself included) I would love to see LOTRO in the 2nd age, or even the 1st age or, heck, the 4th age (immediately AFTER the war with Sauron).
But I agree: Player driven content would be an awesome addition to the game. And allowing the actions of players to impact their guild's reputation with the various NPC factions (like in EVE) would be nice as well, causing guilds to police their members, etc.
I think EVE set a fantastic example in how to make an MMORPG truely player driven but they time gated the game too much. I'd like to see a rewards based skill system (A-La UO/old SWG) where your effort gets you skills rather than X time getting you skill. I'd also like to see MEANINGFUL death implemented for PVP. I actually like the way EVE and DAOC handle PVP. Be it a 'zone' or just 'low security' areas where players can engage in PVP and have "ownership" of territory.
I also agree that the game shouldn't be tied to the Trillogy's timeline, nor should it be in the Hobbit's timeline. It should be 2nd age, or possibly early 3rd age (pre books) or 4th age. That would allow for the most Roleplay, the best ability to really get creative with the game and the least difficulty with "but that wasn't in the books!" (Granted there are officianado's out there, myself included, who are pretty knowledgeable about the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and even 4th age from the books that are out there but we're in the very small minority).
I would LOVE to see a MMORPG come out that uses:
Skill system of UO
Death System of UO
PvP system of EVE and/or DAOC
Territory Ownership of EVE
Player Facility/Fort/City creation/ownership
Graphics quality of EQ2 (but without the plastic hair)
Environment System of Ryzom (if you haven't seen it, play the trial, seasons, herd movement, realistic looking environment, even more so than EQ2)
Quest system of EQ2 (or better, but theirs is currently tops)
Crafting system of UO or SWG
SEAMLESS WORLD! NO FREAKING ZONING!!!!
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I've seen and participated in a fare share of very large PvP battles in WoW. I still enjoy raiding Orgimar : )
I've always thought Blizzard should implement, even on a relatively small scale, some form dynamic zone control. I understand that nooby areas need to be protected, as per WoW's implementation, but there could be a few zones where the NPCs could change based upon who has control atm.
I'd also like to see some type of penalty for the death of a faction's leader. This would help fascilitate protecting/invading the major cities.
(In short, help put the War back into World of Warcraft)
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
My only issue with LOTR Online is the possibility of the game affecting my love of the books, like SWG. For some reason, I really enjoyed watching the Jedi die in EP3.
I don't think LOTR could ever be implemented as an open environment. The story line is static and you couldn't do that much to interfere with cannon (again with Jedi and SWG).
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
You just described my dream game, minus one thing. "ONE SERVER (SERVER CLUSTER) courtesy of EVE and DnL"
I chuckle that WoW isn't among the list. And I wouldn't have it any other way. No offense to WoW. It does everything great, but everything it does great has already been done, they just optimized it.
EDIT: Yarrr I'm a pirate.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I'm not that particular about the 'one world' idea because I could really care less as long as there are enough people that the game doesn't feel empty. I play EVE occasionally still and when there are 15k+ people online the game starts to get some severe lag. So I'm not sure how much longer Eve will be able to avoide going to two clusters. There are limits to what hardware can handle.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I think Blizzard even stated that they really didn't innovate any new systems, but took some the best concepts from other games and pulled them together.
If WoW isn't your type of game, then don't play it. There's plenty of MMOs on the market that may fit your play style. No need to waste time if you're not having fun. : )
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Me personally, ever since I played EVE, have been a big fan of the one server thing. Just because people get renowned and known, even by the developers. And you see people that post on the forums, and you can find them in-game if you thought they were pretty cool and maybe wanted to join their corp. The only time my comp ever got severe lag even before they updated their hardware was when I was in Jita and there were over 16k people online, which meant close to 400 just in the Jita system.
The developers to this day have said that they'll never go to two shards. I'm hoping they'll simply update hardware over and over and try to disperse traffic amongst the empire (high security) systems by moving agents and starting positions for noobs etc. which it sounds like they're planning to do.
But the fact that there are war heroes and fleet commanders that are known for how stern they are in combat and how well they can tactically outsmart other players is impressive. I can see how this can also happen with multiple servers, but when everyone is on one, there's so much more meaning to being a badass or a renowned trade route runner, or a renowned blockade runner, or a renowned mining expert. I've actually saw someone in a system, and been like "hey I heard people talking about him on the forums."
I guess to me with one shard it feels more like "another world."
EDIT: I don't "pay to play" WoW for the record, but I wanted a fun single player game to play and there wasn't one out there that I wanted to pay for, so I asked my roommate for his 10day trial passkey so that I could quest and level in WoW for 10 days and actually play the game that everyone raves about. Just thought I'd comment on it while I'm playing it. I enjoy playing WoW and I see what everyone raves about. It's just not something I could pay a monthly fee to play. I pay to play EVE shhhh, and I love the style of game that it offers, but I just wish that would be enacted in a land-based MMO.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I really liked the overall concept of Eve, and it's something that keeps me wanting to resubscribe. My main complaints were: 1. The pacing, and 2. Lack of environmental variety (yes, I know it's space). I understand that there needs to be an amount of realism, but dam can that game be s... l ... o ... wwwwww.
I was thinking of giving the game another go over the holidays.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I agree, it can be slow. I found that once I learned the basics to the game, and join a corp that is heading the way I wanted to go, I localized, and I've had fun ever since. I barely travel more than 10 jumps any given day. And the alliance that my corp is with gives me any opportunity I'd like for pvp.
But yeah in contrast to almost any other MMO it's very very slow-paced until you get in the heat of combat, and you're on TS and your fleet commander is barking orders to the scouts, tanks, and tacklers. Then it's fast-paced, but thats a rare occasion.
This is why I want to see the ideas and concepts of EVE applied to a land-based MMO. Because then travel would still be slow, but I think it would be much more fast-paced overall.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
EVE is one of those games that I keep giving another chance but can never get into because the pace is so slow. Just can't enjoy that game. It's a GREAT concept... just doesn't work for me as implemented. Mostly it's the time based rather than use based skill system. It's also, to a lesser extent, the travel speed when looting kills... ungh... it should NOT take longer to loot than it did to fight the battle!!!
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I see what they are trying to do with the time-based skils. The concept there is to not focus on the character's skills, but to focus on your skills. But this can be a drag when you're waiting 14 days to get into the ship you've been preparing for by training other skills. To me I don't mind, because I only play like 2-4 hours at the most per day. So I'm fine with the offline training.
I tend to look at it from my character's standpoint. I try to interact with my corp and help them out with whatever they need done, as well as get into some fleet ops for my alliance while I"m online, rather than grind to the next level. I hardly even realize that I'm training skills.
EDIT: But back on topic, I think the new venues of games that are being explored will try different ways of skill training, and I think that there will be a balance between the offline skill training which benefits both casual and hardcore gamers, and the real time training which gives reason to fight loads of npcs. I personally think that certain skills should be time-based and certain skills should be usage based. For instance, you have to train time periods to use a certain quality level or type of weapon, but once you can use it, your proficiency with that wep goes up based on how much you use it.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I'd like to see a combination of use and time based skill systems. I.E. my character finds a sword, and starts using it. Now I have the Sword skill in my character sheet, which will take X number of days/weeks/months to master that skill. Unless I stop using the sword, in which case it won't advance at all, and will begin to slide back to zero. Now the more I use the sword, the faster the timer advances. Then once I've mastered the basic sword skill, I could find a sword trainer, who perhaps after a quest, or whatever, would offer the option to train more advanced sword based skills.
This would also do away with the current Class A can only use weapons X, and Y, Class B can only use Z, etc. I see no reason why a Mage type character couldn't wield a 2 hand warhammer, if they chose to, as long as they had the strength to do so. Would they be as proficient as a warrior type? Probably not. Especially if there is some sort of skill deterioration system in play to prevent people from maxing out every skill, and keeping them there.
It would also go a good ways towards doing away with the usual get to max level, get bored, reroll an alt syndrome, as you could keep the same character, and just pick up some new skills, and head in a different direction.
Will there ever be a game to do this? God, I hope so. From what I've seen of DnL, I won't be holding my breath on the Devs delivering on their promises. Shocking, I know. Darkfall has a system pretty similar to what I want, but again, I have little to no faith in the Devs delivering. LotRO I don't see doing very well, really. I think MMOs based of popular series, like SWG, are a bad move. People have their own view of what the world should be, and of course they all want to be Vader, Luke, Gandalf, Aragorn, or whomever. Of course, this will never happen, and a sort of disillusionment sets in. Then you're just playing a subpar MMO with some familiar names. I don't know enough about D&D Online to say. The only upcoming MMO's I look forward too are Vanguard, as I'm interested in seeing what lessons Brad and crew took from EQ, and how they apply them to a 3rd/4th gen MMO. I'm also looking forward to Warhammer Online. Because it's Warhammer. I am a bit disappointed that I won't be able to play as a Skaven initially, though.
Still waiting for someone to make an MMO based off Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, or a similar PnP game. Or the Cthulhu PnP game.
I disagree.
While i do not have a magical crystal ball and can't see the future, there are many many titles in development (like Vanguard: Saga of Heroes or DDO just to name two of the most famous) that are not trying to revolutionize the genre in big steps. (and that will probably be quite succesful)
I'm sure those two games will have their own innovative features, but they will be MMorpgs in the veins of EQ, DAoC and WoW.
Since the creation of UO, there has been 2 different mmorpgs "types". Ones that focus on developed content and others that are more simulators or sandboxes. The second type, being harder to implement and getting, so far, less of a mainstream appeal, has lacked behind severely (UO----EVE----SWG maybe SoR? but that's it. And of those SWG is going trough a complete redesign and UO has been changed so much that i doubt there is anything left of the original).
Maybe this has been cause world simulations are notoriously hard to implement and might require more advanced technology. Now a second batch of this kind of mmorpg is coming out and i am interested to see how they fare. None of them seems to be aiming for the mainstream market at the moment, but that is not necessarily a Bad Thing (tm).
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I am definitely a fan of developers that don't target the mainstream, but try to make things better by implementing games how they think they should be. I don't think DDO will be successful, just because D&D wasn't made for the MMO genre. The only game that has been true to D&D and been a computer game (imo) is Neverwinter Nights. With they're whole GM role and such.
I think the new style of games such as AoC and DnL will be the true successes coming up. I think people are tired of the "typical" fantasy MMORPG and are looking for something new and different, but still is a fantasy MMORPG. I mean I play these games for the community. And I personally think the only way to have a successful community is to give the players a lot of power. Otherwise you have a single player game that people play with friends that also have the same game.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.