In general, YES! It brings a lot of more adrenalin rush to game
What penalty?
Any. Item loss as a prize for killer (it is not necessary to lost all or most valuable items). Unsaved knowledge in knowledge based games. Xp loss or skill/attributes weakness. This all depends on type of game.
However, there is other side - newbie player killing. If there is dying penalty, there should be also something to protect newbies from being killed in mass.
Safe zones. Combat lvl based PvP zones. Reputation system that will seriously penalize killing of innocent lower players.
Quoting myself from another thread: "I haven't been even once at a group that said "Well, let's die, it's doesn't matter". Even if there's no death penalty at all, death is still perceived as a failure to overcome the difficulties of a combat encounter. And that's enough to make players avoid it as much as they can and improve their combat skills."
As to this, avoiding death still remains exciting. What is being removed is the anger caused by losing 2 hours of an xp session by such a failure, which makes the game, in my opinion, less fun.
I can see the reasons to keep a death penalty as a moneysink, by needing to repair items, in order to keep the economy more stable. But I do not think that any kind of penalty makes the game more exciting in any way, as you still want to avoid it, because it is, after all, a certain kind of failure to die in combat.
Currently playing: * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant. * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I've played two MMOG's, Hyperiums and EVE Online. Both are open ended and player directed, both also had harsh penalties for dying.
I couldn't play an MMOG that didn't have harsh death penalties, if I wanted mindless PvE and no consequences for taking lethal damage, I'd load Doom and type IDDQD.
I've killed numerous people on EVE, but I don't do it to grief, I have to make a living too, and being a skywayman is the only way I like to do it. Those I've killed have refused to pay ransom - I never kill those that pay, honour, respect, and reputation is an important part of my business - the loot I pull from their destroyed ships is usually worth more than the ransom anyway (I offer the ransom because I see no fun in ganking random people and swiping loot. It also gives me a bad rep and I'll have less 'customers' ).
Because of my way of life the games penalties have been activated, I can no longer enter secure systems (Where the cheapest gear is, where I can sell loot with highest chance of a sale, and where most players reside. Most importantly it means I can't take the direct route to other regions, I have to take the long insecure route which can take almpst 8 or 9 times longer than the secure way) because the NPC police force will blow me to pieces. I'm also 'blinky red', which means I can be attacked anywhere, at anytime, by anyone, and the games anti-gank systems won't do a thing to my attackers. Finally, I become a massive target for bounty hunters and vigilantes. It's damn hard to go anywhere because with blinky red I am targetted by anyone in a bigger ship than me (You can get my ship on your first day of EVE, if you choose the right character choices).
Don't think I'm a 2 year old uber player that just ganks newbs, I've only been playing for a month and I can confidently attack anyone from 1 day old to 6 months old (because of the constant SP gain without needing to grind, this means that every 6 month old player will have over 6x my SP. This is like a 1 million XP character taking out a 6 Million XP character in WoW or similar). Even 1 year old if they aren't flying an awesome ship.
Lets say I run into 5 T1 frigate pilots in one day (means they are usually between 1 and 7 days old), I charge a 200K ransom for their ships (not expensive, takes about 10 minutes of ratting or mining to make this much) and they refuse to pay. I gank all five. Horribly unfair griefing, correct? Well lets say that these 5 frig pilots meet each other in the newb corp chat, they decide to enact a little revenge and refit their ships, group together, and come after me. These guys (if they find me), could use the numbers advantage and range to easily beat my cruiser down. They could then ransom me for around 2 mil or gank me in retribution. Don't blow this off as a 'no chance in hell' scenario, because that very incident happened to me.
This ability for a newb with a good plan to take down players with over 12x their SP (The EVE version of XP), and the inherent griefer protection, means that harsh kill penalties (In EVE they can loot everything you are carrying, and if they pod you and you haven't updated your clone you will lose SP) are very good on this game.
However, on something like WoW where a lvl 60 can just gank everything below it, harsh kill penalties will definately make the gameplay worse. Griefing would be rife, and there would be little you could do to stop it. Also the amount of time required to make items means that full looting isn't viable.
Heavy penalties are great, and I wouldn't play a game that didn't have them. But not all games are suited to them, and should stay less dangerous.
Oh, btw, I've lost 32 ships in EVE, after 37 days of playing
Asheron's Call, best PVP system ever. Death loot that uses a good calculation system of worth and rarity so you can carry around "death items" that you drop so you don't lose your weapons and armor. There's always that risk of running to town to sell and hoping there's no 50+ level guy waiting to jump you. There's the silent agreement between you and the other guy in the dungeon to not kill each other. There's the weary stare-down between your group of 4 and the other group of 5. There's the group of 3 anti-pk guilders chasing after a higher level PK guilder that has been ganking lowbies. It's a great system, and it has great penalties. Stats lowered by 5% on death that needs xp devoted to it to make it disappear and the loss of items (# is level dependent) and money.
<-- smiley face
[Insert reason to be considered a super nerd here]
I have to disagree with Frank on a harsher death penalty. When I signed-up, I had visions of the type of game that Frank talks about. Guilds that help each other and VR friendships forged. Unfortunetly the in-game reality (oxymoron?) is quite different due to the schism between casual and hardcore players. I'm referring to the amount of time played and how the game is played. There are so many players who play 40+ hours and just grind to get to end game that casual players are left in the dust. My first guild booted me for not leveling fast enough. And even though I started on a new server, at level 35 I've been killed several times by 60's with epic gear. If I were "penalized" by losing gear, money, exp, etc,...because I can't play the game as my full-time job, I would have to quit. Which would be unfortunate because I absolutely love the game...
There's no f***ing way im going to read all that. But let me reiterate, EVE Online actually did it right, they created a sense of realism through the DP and made it hard enough to keep suicide trial members from going on a useless rampage to kill someone, after all, a rookie ship with a pilot that only has 4 days under his belt isn't exactly "LVL 60".
So in EVE, n00bs don't have a chance of taking out 6 month pros, and if 2 pros go at it, one loses their ship and the other had better find a station to repair fast. Not to mention the whole podding issue! If a player wants to really burn someone, they can destroy the defeated players pod and watch as the other guy s that hes just lost 1/2 the uninsured EXP. It's basically to complicated to explain, just take the trial and see for yourselves.
In the end what im trying to say is, the DP should tie into the game really well, like in EVE how it ties into the economic system with the clones.
I can pwn if I want to, I can leave my pants behind...
Death Penalties are a necessary evil. I currently play WoW, which is a fun game for what it has to offer. But, PvP without consequences just doesn't generate the heart pounding excitement of other games. I remember the days of UO and getting PK'd. That used to ruin my night at times. But, it did make revenge much more sweet.
That being said, I don't think dying should mean you lose everything you are carrying. Even that might be a bit too steep of a price. However, losing a portion of gold and losing items not currently being worn may be closer to what I am talking about. There must be a reason to live and a reason to win. A player shouldn't just be able to run into a group of ten other players thinking "well, at least that rogue will die before I do!", then just rez and go on his merry way. Of course, if the player is willing to pay the price for dying in that case, then sure, go for it.
I simply think penalty systems are needed to provide a more realistic feel to PvP. Yes yes I know, it's a game, not reality. But, as long as you are playing a game, you might as well get your heart pounding.
I find myself agreeing with both of you, i'm pretty in between.. the thing is there has to be a death penalty, lets face it, you cant jsut run around taking on high level monsters cos theres a 5% chance to win something, and a 0% chance to lose something... but then again, we are playing to have fun, so the death penalties should be a bit small. i think death penalties should include: loss of XP (not enough to level down), Loss of gold and having to restart in town. or even guild wars has a great dp system, nothing permanent, but failing a mission is very frustrating, and constantly dying can make a quest impossible without restarting the quest.
my point is Death penalties should exist, they must however be reasonable.. they should frustrate the player, dont get me wrong, but not to the point he'll quit, for example i played a game called eternal lands, and bought some amazing armour and magical capes, took me months to save up for it, and then i died and some jerk looted my corpse (the lier said he found my corpse with nothing in it except for some cheap items, as soon as he thought he was out of view he put on all the armor i lost!) and then i lost months worth of playing.. so i gave up.
Everybody here who thinks that that's stupid and so sh**** that f.e. in WoW there aren't any penalties are just f****** stupid children. If u don't like it, DON'T PLAY IT, nobody forces u. U ppl are just whining babies, I am playing both FPS > CoD1 (now CoD2) and MMORPG > WoW. CoD2 community is just like u, whining about things that they dislike about CoD2 and then u see them all playing it 10 hours a day. U ARE RETARDED. There are some things which I dislike about every game, there aren't any perfect, but I don't say that a game is crappy noobish etc if i play it. I haven't read all posts here cause there are too many but generally almost all ppl who said here that WoW is stupid because there are no death penalties just say it because u haven't really played it. I bet most of u don't know that the real game in WoW starts from 40lv, where u can go to high lv instances, PvP (on lower lvs it's just wasting time) and u have a mount which greatly increases making quest, meeting ppl etc. Secondly, everyone who thinks that WoW is solo playable and that's stupid, n/c u are more retarded than i thought. If it was so great solo playable, have u been in any instance? Have u made any Elite quests?? OF COURSE NOT U IDIOTS, because u need a good team to complete them. There are many quests which are solo playable in order to gain certain level. U don't get good equipment there, it is just to prepare u for instances where u need good team, and can get great items although u rarely get any really, u often have to go to best instances dozen of time to really get good equipment. U are stupid if u still think that WoW is just single player ONLINE game. Thirdly, about if death penalty should be in some games or not, it's just personal opinion. I wouldn't play WoW if u lost whole equipment just because u make a quest and a stupid rogue stabs u from behind. That would just completely unbalance realms and: 1) After a month half of ppl would quit and f.e. Blizzard would bankrupt or just have to make a completely new game 2) Nobody would make quests, everybody would just gank or grief other players which would lead to such unbalance that if u aren't 60 with 10 "bodyguards" u will lose everything in 5 minutes As far as I'm concerned, xp lost isn't so bad, it was like that in Diablo II and u just lost some xp which u could quite easily regain, the same would apply to WoW but there isn't such thing in that MMORPG and it won't be any I think. I like WoW death penalties, on a very high lv with great equipment it isn't as u think it is, when u have to pay lots of gold for one repair. Also ppl in WoW fear of death because nobody like to run for 5 mins all the time. Running to your corpse is a perfect addition to durability loss which makes ppl feared of death. Generally ganking or worse griefing is soo pathetic. There are Battle Grounds in WoW which are awesome, there are many guilds who even play sth similar to clanwars there. U can fight human players there to gain honour which unlike many of u think is worth killing ppl. U get great equipment for high Honor rank. But the most important thing is that on highest rank, it's extremely difficult to achieve u can buy a 60lv mount for 90g instead of 1000g and that's why ppl are determined to play BG. In my honest opinion, u shouldn't be able to kill ppl outside BGs (although there are sections 21-30. 31-40, 41-50, 51-60) when u are 10 lvs higher, u should be able to fight only with players like on BG so max 9 lv difference. That would lead to major decrease in griefing.
Originally posted by Lasastard I think this debate really depends on what kind of gamer you are. Do you take the game serious, does it take much of your free time, are you devoting much of your social life etc to games, than it is more likely that you will want a death penalty, to spice things up. But I think that people like me, casual gamers that spend only a few hours per week playing games, will not like death penalties - because dying and loosing XP and stuff is much more frustrating, when you already have a slow leveling pace.
Well then I suppose casual gamers should stick to single player games.
I really love this kind of thinking. I'm a casual gamer so I should have to leave... Why don't people who just care about killing other's go to X-box live.
To be frank, conceptually I like the idea of a real penalty for dying, loss of level, loss of gear etc. Dying for my screw ups or those of my group is part of the risk.
In practice, ISP issues, internet drop outs, server resets,(difference in speed of client computers for PVP) LAG, and ohh did I mention LAG? all make me disagree with death penalties. It's one thing to lose stuff if its my fault, it's something else entirely if its a machines failure and beyond my control.
So for that reason alone I don't like death penalties, seems quite a few agree with me if you look at the number of PVP/PVE servers for WOW.
On top of that, in a pure PVP environment, nope can't enjoy that not in a MMO. You end up dying due to whomever either has 1. the biggest bank account (buys gold online) or has absolutely no life and can grind mercilessly for weeks at a time. (aka these games are gear driven and whomever has the shiniest toy wins, skill matters less than people think, it matters but a good amount of all gamers are fairly competent) Either way it results in large amounts of frustration for the average joe. And lets face it, most of us are the average joe working 40+ hours a week. I come online to socialize and have fun, not to be frustrated.
Yes, they are supposed to be persistent worlds but in the end its about entertainment and making things too realistic turns most people off.
There will always be a few games out there for the truly hardcore (lineage anyone?) but the games that enjoy the real commercial success will treat death and mistakes lightly, just like WoW. And I for one and thankful for that. As for the annoying turd, well ya know.. when you play PVE /ignore <insert name> works wonders and makes your overall gaming experience more fun.
I like Frank he is my hero If you take a moment and think what weapons and armor you are going to buy in Wow or most games you are going to be paying insane amounts of money. If the game allowed other players to loot corpses 100% then we wouldnt have a problem with prices. Everyone who wants to keep there loot is just some greedy p.o.s. trying to make some money. Gaming companies arent really listening to you people who dont want to lose your loot when you die they are using you to make money. This is why they make new weapons and armor for you twats to farm for. In 1997-1999 UO was the best MMO release and it still holds that title. It was a skill based game with a risk. You had to learn to Pvp in UO just to play the game. Let me put it this way anyone who doesnt agree with Frank is just flat out a trammy aka Carebear these days.
While the warrants of eliminating un-consented player versus player combat are debatable, almost all subsequently released MMORPGs started off right away with only mutual-consent combat amongst players, which attracted many players away from UO before Trammel was introduced. Many more players left in subsequent years, often marking the introduction of Trammel as the turning point, claiming the ability to avoid the more complex sides of interaction took much of the spice away from the game.
Economy Another large problem facing UO has been the economy. While remaining balanced, money (or more generally, value) has been added to the game much more quickly than it has been taken out, resulting in extreme devaluation of gold. Value often enters the game through killing monsters, treasure, and crafting, while the primary way it leaves the game is through NPC reagent sales. Throughout the history of UO, various gold sinks have been provided to compensate, and prices of items have steadily risen to compensate, but the effects are still felt.
Absolutely there should be a death penalty. I never played UO but from EQ and AO I know all too well that you learn how to play your character better when there are consequences when you die. In EQ you could lose a level if you died enough giving you a very clear sense of self preservation when things started to look bad. Also AO was probably worse before they implemented the XP deficit. You could lose hours of xp if you forgot to save your character between missions or got ganked in the open areas. Losing xp is the best way to make players better at their character. If you cant get past a certain group of mobs or complete a certain quest then you cant continue to level up and become a useless level 60 like a lot of players are now a days in the new generation of MMOs where there is no real death penalty.
On the PvP note, I don't think there should be xp penalty or corpse looting, the only reward should be status (and items gained from that status) and it should be dependent on your level and the level of the person you kill. This limits how annoying griefers can be, if you don't get any status or lose status by killing characters who would have no chance of beating you anyway then there is little reason to grief. WoW has been out for over a year and they still dont have a very good pvp reward/penalty system. The rewards are pretty decent but there is no real deterrant for a level 60 to not kill a level 20 or even 40 toon.
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. ~Author Conan Doyle
The reason newer games have lower death penalties is because of the game design.
It's way to easy to get killed in these games in pve, not to mention the 1 or 2 hit pvp kills.
Now personally I'd like to see perma death as the penalty for running your mouth like a 10 year old or screwing up a dungeon run. But until these game designers realize it's not funny or entertaining in the least to have a mob 20 levels over you wander through a newbie area, or have no way of escape if the so-called random number generator spits out 45 misses/resists in a row, then there is really no point in arguing over what penalty is or isn't suitable.
imho i think it really depends on the game. IN ffxi the deathpentalty was a pain in the ass. you lost exp and nothing eles after grinding for hours. However i think when you have a big sandbox like in eve, it is very good i loose money esentully if i get killed (wich hapens more then i kill). Hell i can call on the local security detail, my corp or my alliance and hunt down ppl. and i feel as if i die and kill for a reason for control of more resources. any way i feel this is always going to be an issue much like the carebear debate. play the game you want its your money. and if it is a big enogh compnay like blizard they should have some servers that appeal to every one. and i mean more then just the pvp/pve/rp ones. Again i play what i want and leave when i want you should do the same. ;>
I have to agree with Garrett. I shut down EQ because of the griefing in death penalties. I am a father of 3 and married as well as I run an I.S. Department. I have little time to deal with a pimpled face child who gets room and board from the rents to come along after being able to play for hours on a daily basis to smack me take away my time and effort. Not worth my money. And if it wasn't for all the type of gamers like me, then the financial status of making an MMO would not be worthwhile to a game company. The reason the death penalties are lowering is because it is an effective marketing strategy.
I feel if someone hates this process, there is still EQ out there and UO. Now one is stopping them from heading back to those games.
I am with Frank - death in MMOs should have a price and a meaning, not this pansy method of coddling that WoW prescribes too (amongst other games). WoW has brought people into the MMO market that were heretofor not present; good for them, let them stay in WoW. Games are fun for different people in different ways. I happen to like mine EQ style.
I don't want my hand held when I play an MMO, I want some virtual risk, some tension, and yes, sometimes some seriously annoying situations to happen. There was nothing quite like an old-school EQ PoFear wipe recovery, and games that guide you along on a leash will never capture that sense of adventure and excitement, and yes, sometimes downright frustration. Its all part of the sense of 'fun' and immersion - even the 'oogy bad things' like death penalties. Actions should have consequences, risk and reward.
Yes, death penalties hamper the market saturation. the less complicated you make a game the wider it appeals. Translate that into meaning what it may. It involves a lowest common denominater. One Im not interested in.
There are some wicked misconceptions that we're a homogenous group of people who want to
make WoW a rotten experience out there..!
What we really want isn't a WoW driven into a system that will ultimately ruin it. What
we want is a better game. I'm not speaking for all of us, but you tend to speak of all
of us. As if we were one big group of "idiots". I shouldn't be bothered to take offense
until you started spelling out words, using appropriate punctuation and inserting a few
paragraphs for readability, but I thought a little clarification might do you some good.
You keep playing WoW, where you have to grind to level 40 before you can even start
playing the real game (that's not what you meant, but that's what it means!)
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Perhaps when you die you can make yourself logoff and do your homework, call your girlfriend, remind your wife you're alive, go look for a job or simply take a shower.
In RL "Earth MMORPG", If someone shoots my neighbor I don't have the right to run over and steal everything out of his clothes so why do people assume that we should have that right in games.
If you feel you must have pain attached to your ingame death then buy me some beer and I'll be happy to stand behind your chair and hit you with a shovel whenever you die but as for myself, I don't have 8 hours a day to play that way.
Death is part and parcel of the game. Most people would say a time sink is apt reward for getting your respect behind handed to you.
I enjoyed the original UO death system. While you could get ganked its true, you could also stumble across some one elses corpse and re equip youself.
And running around going Oooo Ooo Ooo until you found some one with, ack what was that skill... darn its been over 5years or more since I played the Grand Daddy of Mmorpgs...
Its true in the beginning it suxed to die to a player who said sorry I killed you, just trying to get my skill up, but as time went on you truely learn't the art form, I had a great teacher back then, and it actually became quite a thrill to take out 3 red guys who tried to zerg, because seeming like a hapless player, and then returning fire with a combination of well honed attacks was something else, Producing a demon at will was also kinda neat to send it after the feeing so called badasses... Happy days.
The best death system I suppose would be if when you died you could take the instant xp hit, item degrade, or you had the oportunity to play a spirit realm zone, where you could much like normal play develope a spirit side to your character, which in turn made you stronger in the real world. Haha Death would actually be something to strive for just so you had extra time in Hades, a randomly generated Ldon Hell of sorts populated by mobs who hate you the most. So you'd play out your time in hell or untill some nice priest type came a long and pulled you back into the realm of the living. Give people the choice of how they'd like to play out being dead...
Rather than making death a penalty make it part of the game play
I think the problem of debating death penalties nowadays is that we look at the penalties themselves and fail to look at the surrounding context(level vs skill based systems, demographics playing, company/franchises stake in the game).
As a veteran UO and EQ1 player, I do agree that the newer games are quite boring due to many factors, including death penalty and PvP. However, on closer inspection on a game's dynamics, almost all the more recent games are level- and uber loot-centric whereas UO was primarily skill-centered(attribute/innate skills, none of the spells they call skills in GW).
With these things considered, losses of loot - even one single piece - in a more recent MMO is far more severe than it would be losing everything on your body and possibly your entire bank in something like UO. In something like EQ, a person could spend anywhere from a day to an entire month camping/grouping/raiding to get any piece of equipment and will most likely increase their stats/playing ability to some significant degree. If you were to lose all your gear, it would not only takes months to get it all back, but no one would want you on any raids or groups because you can't function or contribute in these games without equipment. In UO, you kept your skills intact for the most part and thus your stats. There was no being dropped to 1/10th of your proficency and you could spend.. what? 30 minutes gathering materials and crafting your gear back or asking someone to do it or simply buy it because it wasn't that expensive.
Exp-wise, I don't know about now but UO had the system where the level of your skill affected your stats which then affected hp/mana/etc. In your regular cookie cutter MMORPG, level and gear make those things up. Here it pretty much depends on the player what he's willing to give up for a death when he's supposed to be playing a game and having fun. In level-based RPGs, a loss in XP would constitute half a day's work or more if it were a casual player. Some people just aren't willing to give that time up. In UO, many people, as much as most will deny it, could simply macro their skills up to speed(because who wants to keep clicking on a tree, rock, or training dummy for hours when you could have it done for you in your sleep). Either way, it was quite minimal considering the effort expended and at least it was fun PKing others to build your skills back on your way to avenge your death.
And finally and most importantly to the companies that make these games, the PEOPLE playing. Before MMORPGs used to be a luxury, it was for people that had good internet connections and were willing to subscribe to a game, that is put money into it. And while looked down upon, people were selling UO accounts for thousands of dollars on Ebay and someone was more than willing to pay that kind of money. Any UO or EQ player at the time was undoubtly a hardcore player. Now it's gotten popular after all the money SoE has made off EQ and other companies want to cash in and it seems to be the evolution of PC RPGs.
You get all sorts of players from those that just wanna dip in for the experience to the hardcore of days prior. Whereas some people think a loss would be minor because it'll be gone by the end of a day; others will groan, cry, or worse because they probably won't be able to play for another week and only for a few hours at that.
You also have a giant age range now compared to before. Credit card companies issue cards even earlier, parents willing to give into our children's begging because they just have to play an MMORPG because it's of a certain franchise.*cough* And likewise, people who previously wouldn't play these P2P games because they didn't want to keep paying for a game they've already bought find themselves also giving in to play the newest adventures in Azeroth. To keep these kinds of players, a company like Blizzard has to do everything in its power to make it appealing to them, or at least remove the structures that their players would use to ridicule(like paying to work, paying to have your xp taken away from you, etc). And this is in addition on having to cater to a younger generation whose attention span isn't quite as good as they'd like.
If one were to introduce a game with extraordinary penalties from stuff like PVP and throw children into the fray, they'd also be much more easily upset that they were playing their game fine until such-and-such player came up and PKed them. They'd probably run to their parents crying "OMG SOMEONE KILLED ME~!! I LOST ALL MY WORK!". Depending on the parents the reaction would be different but the range would be anywhere from consoling said child, telling them it's just a game to cancelling their accounts or even worse, start up some lawsuit against a company for "emotional damage" that their child has been forced to endure. With people like Thompson running around with the media and Congress on his side, this is a very real and dangerous threat to game makers. It can be easily mitigated by additions to the EULA and disclaimers, but would damage the face of the company nonetheless.
And let's not forget that while we are customers to these game companies and they should listen to us, they are also in the business of making money from these games so they have to try to cater to as many niches as possible and do anything in their power to keep their customers and/or take them from other games. While I rather have some fun killing or be killed, in their eyes, alienating people who would think it's too easy is nothing compared keeping the business they have running and if the gaming development has learned anything, it's that even if someone dislikes how something is run, they'd probably buy it anyways to try it or because there's nothing else to do.
So yeah, that was sort of long-winded.. even for me. But there are a lot of reasons for why death penalties are the way they are and it's pretty difficult to compare them directly and I didn't even really touch on grieving all that much.. but that's another issue entirely.
Garrett Fuller's comments remind me of many anti pvp, anti death penalty arguments.
Not completely based on the facts.
If Garret actually did play UO his opinions probably stem from getting his tunic handed to him time and time again.
In UO you could only get player killed at a city bank if you had chosen to be in a faction, Order or Chaos or by "turning grey" or by an exploit . With the exception of exploits it was a choice that you controlled to put yourself into a pvp situation.
I've seen this cry for over 8 years in mmorpg's. Player A makes a choice to enter into a pvp situation or into a dangerous pve environment. Player A gets killed over and over and then starts the forum posting or game support messaging that changes need to be made so that they don't die over and over.
The ball starts rolling of the game getting dumb down and made easier for those players that can't cut the mustard, are too lazy to put in the effort, won't group out of greed and/or lastly spent too much time on console games with cheat codes.
I'll back up my assumption of this by another little clue within his postings.
"Killing other characters or lower level characters is called "griefing" for a reason. "
This is yet another opinion of that mind set. Sorry but killing another player isn't griefing. It's part of the game. Killing another player over and over in a situation that Player A ( the so called griefed) cannot control is griefing. Using an exploit to repeatedly kill players is another example of griefing.
In UO it was a known fact that you could be player killed if you left the protection of the town guards.
If you left town then you controlled the situation of pvp and volunteered to participate.
Instead those that didn't like it made the efforts to have the game changed to their playstyle.
And the research must have been there that the game would have more subscribers if the changes were made because it happened.
It's happened in every mmorpg that I've played. They dumb em down once the cries come in that the game is too hard.
I'm just waiting for a game to be made by someone who won't be a slave to the dollar and hold to their ideals and just tell the whiners to, "cancel, our game isn't for you."
Maybe good old Lord British and Designer Dragon will team up again and put that out and this time not succumb to the cries of , "it's too hard."
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Comments
Penalty from dying?
In general, YES! It brings a lot of more adrenalin rush to game
What penalty?
Any. Item loss as a prize for killer (it is not necessary to lost all or most valuable items). Unsaved knowledge in knowledge based games. Xp loss or skill/attributes weakness. This all depends on type of game.
However, there is other side - newbie player killing. If there is dying penalty, there should be also something to protect newbies from being killed in mass.
Safe zones. Combat lvl based PvP zones. Reputation system that will seriously penalize killing of innocent lower players.
Quoting myself from another thread:
"I haven't been even once at a group that said "Well, let's die, it's doesn't matter". Even if there's no death penalty at all, death is still perceived as a failure to overcome the difficulties of a combat encounter. And that's enough to make players avoid it as much as they can and improve their combat skills."
As to this, avoiding death still remains exciting. What is being removed is the anger caused by losing 2 hours of an xp session by such a failure, which makes the game, in my opinion, less fun.
I can see the reasons to keep a death penalty as a moneysink, by needing to repair items, in order to keep the economy more stable. But I do not think that any kind of penalty makes the game more exciting in any way, as you still want to avoid it, because it is, after all, a certain kind of failure to die in combat.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I've played two MMOG's, Hyperiums and EVE Online. Both are open ended and player directed, both also had harsh penalties for dying.
I couldn't play an MMOG that didn't have harsh death penalties, if I wanted mindless PvE and no consequences for taking lethal damage, I'd load Doom and type IDDQD.
I've killed numerous people on EVE, but I don't do it to grief, I have to make a living too, and being a skywayman is the only way I like to do it. Those I've killed have refused to pay ransom - I never kill those that pay, honour, respect, and reputation is an important part of my business - the loot I pull from their destroyed ships is usually worth more than the ransom anyway (I offer the ransom because I see no fun in ganking random people and swiping loot. It also gives me a bad rep and I'll have less 'customers'
).
Because of my way of life the games penalties have been activated, I can no longer enter secure systems (Where the cheapest gear is, where I can sell loot with highest chance of a sale, and where most players reside. Most importantly it means I can't take the direct route to other regions, I have to take the long insecure route which can take almpst 8 or 9 times longer than the secure way) because the NPC police force will blow me to pieces. I'm also 'blinky red', which means I can be attacked anywhere, at anytime, by anyone, and the games anti-gank systems won't do a thing to my attackers. Finally, I become a massive target for bounty hunters and vigilantes. It's damn hard to go anywhere because with blinky red I am targetted by anyone in a bigger ship than me (You can get my ship on your first day of EVE, if you choose the right character choices).
Don't think I'm a 2 year old uber player
that just ganks newbs, I've only been playing for a month and I can confidently attack anyone from 1 day old to 6 months old (because of the constant SP gain without needing to grind, this means that every 6 month old player will have over 6x my SP. This is like a 1 million XP character taking out a 6 Million XP character in WoW or similar). Even 1 year old if they aren't flying an awesome ship.
Lets say I run into 5 T1 frigate pilots in one day (means they are usually between 1 and 7 days old), I charge a 200K ransom for their ships (not expensive, takes about 10 minutes of ratting or mining to make this much) and they refuse to pay. I gank all five.
Horribly unfair griefing, correct? Well lets say that these 5 frig pilots meet each other in the newb corp chat, they decide to enact a little revenge and refit their ships, group together, and come after me. These guys (if they find me), could use the numbers advantage and range to easily beat my cruiser down. They could then ransom me for around 2 mil or gank me in retribution. Don't blow this off as a 'no chance in hell' scenario, because that very incident happened to me. 
This ability for a newb with a good plan to take down players with over 12x their SP (The EVE version of XP), and the inherent griefer protection, means that harsh kill penalties (In EVE they can loot everything you are carrying, and if they pod you and you haven't updated your clone you will lose SP) are very good on this game.
However, on something like WoW where a lvl 60 can just gank everything below it, harsh kill penalties will definately make the gameplay worse. Griefing would be rife, and there would be little you could do to stop it. Also the amount of time required to make items means that full looting isn't viable.
Heavy penalties are great, and I wouldn't play a game that didn't have them. But not all games are suited to them, and should stay less dangerous.
Oh, btw, I've lost 32 ships in EVE, after 37 days of playing
Asheron's Call, best PVP system ever. Death loot that uses a good calculation system of worth and rarity so you can carry around "death items" that you drop so you don't lose your weapons and armor. There's always that risk of running to town to sell and hoping there's no 50+ level guy waiting to jump you. There's the silent agreement between you and the other guy in the dungeon to not kill each other. There's the weary stare-down between your group of 4 and the other group of 5. There's the group of 3 anti-pk guilders chasing after a higher level PK guilder that has been ganking lowbies. It's a great system, and it has great penalties. Stats lowered by 5% on death that needs xp devoted to it to make it disappear and the loss of items (# is level dependent) and money.
[Insert reason to be considered a super nerd here]
There's no f***ing way im going to read all that. But let me reiterate, EVE Online actually did it right, they created a sense of realism through the DP and made it hard enough to keep suicide trial members from going on a useless rampage to kill someone, after all, a rookie ship with a pilot that only has 4 days under his belt isn't exactly "LVL 60".
So in EVE, n00bs don't have a chance of taking out 6 month pros, and if 2 pros go at it, one loses their ship and the other had better find a station to repair fast. Not to mention the whole podding issue! If a player wants to really burn someone, they can destroy the defeated players pod and watch as the other guy
s that hes just lost 1/2 the uninsured EXP. It's basically to complicated to explain, just take the trial and see for yourselves.
In the end what im trying to say is, the DP should tie into the game really well, like in EVE how it ties into the economic system with the clones.
I can pwn if I want to, I can leave my pants behind...
Death Penalties are a necessary evil. I currently play WoW, which is a fun game for what it has to offer. But, PvP without consequences just doesn't generate the heart pounding excitement of other games. I remember the days of UO and getting PK'd. That used to ruin my night at times. But, it did make revenge much more sweet.
That being said, I don't think dying should mean you lose everything you are carrying. Even that might be a bit too steep of a price. However, losing a portion of gold and losing items not currently being worn may be closer to what I am talking about. There must be a reason to live and a reason to win. A player shouldn't just be able to run into a group of ten other players thinking "well, at least that rogue will die before I do!", then just rez and go on his merry way. Of course, if the player is willing to pay the price for dying in that case, then sure, go for it.
I simply think penalty systems are needed to provide a more realistic feel to PvP. Yes yes I know, it's a game, not reality. But, as long as you are playing a game, you might as well get your heart pounding.
I find myself agreeing with both of you, i'm pretty in between.. the thing is there has to be a death penalty, lets face it, you cant jsut run around taking on high level monsters cos theres a 5% chance to win something, and a 0% chance to lose something... but then again, we are playing to have fun, so the death penalties should be a bit small. i think death penalties should include: loss of XP (not enough to level down), Loss of gold and having to restart in town.
or even guild wars has a great dp system, nothing permanent, but failing a mission is very frustrating, and constantly dying can make a quest impossible without restarting the quest.
my point is Death penalties should exist, they must however be reasonable.. they should frustrate the player, dont get me wrong, but not to the point he'll quit, for example i played a game called eternal lands, and bought some amazing armour and magical capes, took me months to save up for it, and then i died and some jerk looted my corpse (the lier said he found my corpse with nothing in it except for some cheap items, as soon as he thought he was out of view he put on all the armor i lost!) and then i lost months worth of playing.. so i gave up.
Everybody here who thinks that that's stupid and so sh**** that f.e. in WoW there aren't any penalties are just f****** stupid children. If u don't like it, DON'T PLAY IT, nobody forces u. U ppl are just whining babies, I am playing both FPS > CoD1 (now CoD2) and MMORPG > WoW. CoD2 community is just like u, whining about things that they dislike about CoD2 and then u see them all playing it 10 hours a day. U ARE RETARDED. There are some things which I dislike about every game, there aren't any perfect, but I don't say that a game is crappy noobish etc if i play it. I haven't read all posts here cause there are too many but generally almost all ppl who said here that WoW is stupid because there are no death penalties just say it because u haven't really played it. I bet most of u don't know that the real game in WoW starts from 40lv, where u can go to high lv instances, PvP (on lower lvs it's just wasting time) and u have a mount which greatly increases making quest, meeting ppl etc.
Secondly, everyone who thinks that WoW is solo playable and that's stupid, n/c u are more retarded than i thought. If it was so great solo playable, have u been in any instance? Have u made any Elite quests?? OF COURSE NOT U IDIOTS, because u need a good team to complete them. There are many quests which are solo playable in order to gain certain level. U don't get good equipment there, it is just to prepare u for instances where u need good team, and can get great items although u rarely get any really, u often have to go to best instances dozen of time to really get good equipment. U are stupid if u still think that WoW is just single player ONLINE game.
Thirdly, about if death penalty should be in some games or not, it's just personal opinion. I wouldn't play WoW if u lost whole equipment just because u make a quest and a stupid rogue stabs u from behind. That would just completely unbalance realms and:
1) After a month half of ppl would quit and f.e. Blizzard would bankrupt or just have to make a completely new game
2) Nobody would make quests, everybody would just gank or grief other players which would lead to such unbalance that if u aren't 60 with 10 "bodyguards" u will lose everything in 5 minutes
As far as I'm concerned, xp lost isn't so bad, it was like that in Diablo II and u just lost some xp which u could quite easily regain, the same would apply to WoW but there isn't such thing in that MMORPG and it won't be any I think. I like WoW death penalties, on a very high lv with great equipment it isn't as u think it is, when u have to pay lots of gold for one repair. Also ppl in WoW fear of death because nobody like to run for 5 mins all the time. Running to your corpse is a perfect addition to durability loss which makes ppl feared of death.
Generally ganking or worse griefing is soo pathetic. There are Battle Grounds in WoW which are awesome, there are many guilds who even play sth similar to clanwars there. U can fight human players there to gain honour which unlike many of u think is worth killing ppl. U get great equipment for high Honor rank. But the most important thing is that on highest rank, it's extremely difficult to achieve u can buy a 60lv mount for 90g instead of 1000g and that's why ppl are determined to play BG. In my honest opinion, u shouldn't be able to kill ppl outside BGs (although there are sections 21-30. 31-40, 41-50, 51-60) when u are 10 lvs higher, u should be able to fight only with players like on BG so max 9 lv difference. That would lead to major decrease in griefing.
Ehh death penalty, always a fun debate.
To be frank, conceptually I like the idea of a real penalty for dying, loss of level, loss of gear etc. Dying for my screw ups or those of my group is part of the risk.
In practice, ISP issues, internet drop outs, server resets,(difference in speed of client computers for PVP) LAG, and ohh did I mention LAG? all make me disagree with death penalties. It's one thing to lose stuff if its my fault, it's something else entirely if its a machines failure and beyond my control.
So for that reason alone I don't like death penalties, seems quite a few agree with me if you look at the number of PVP/PVE servers for WOW.
On top of that, in a pure PVP environment, nope can't enjoy that not in a MMO. You end up dying due to whomever either has 1. the biggest bank account (buys gold online) or has absolutely no life and can grind mercilessly for weeks at a time. (aka these games are gear driven and whomever has the shiniest toy wins, skill matters less than people think, it matters but a good amount of all gamers are fairly competent) Either way it results in large amounts of frustration for the average joe. And lets face it, most of us are the average joe working 40+ hours a week. I come online to socialize and have fun, not to be frustrated.
Yes, they are supposed to be persistent worlds but in the end its about entertainment and making things too realistic turns most people off.
There will always be a few games out there for the truly hardcore (lineage anyone?) but the games that enjoy the real commercial success will treat death and mistakes lightly, just like WoW. And I for one and thankful for that. As for the annoying turd, well ya know.. when you play PVE /ignore <insert name> works wonders and makes your overall gaming experience more fun.
I think that losing XP should be the minimun when you die in MMORPG
I can understand that perma death would be too much
but die should have consequenses and losing XP is making your advance be slower
the death penalty of AC1 was quiet ok
XP bar to recover with a penalty of all your stats during the recover
and at higher LVL lose of one or 2 object in your stuff
i remember some amazing RUN away form the battle in this game
I like Frank he is my hero
If you take a moment and think what weapons and armor you are going to buy in Wow or most games you are going to be paying insane amounts of money. If the game allowed other players to loot corpses 100% then we wouldnt have a problem with prices. Everyone who wants to keep there loot is just some greedy p.o.s. trying to make some money. Gaming companies arent really listening to you people who dont want to lose your loot when you die they are using you to make money. This is why they make new weapons and armor for you twats to farm for.
In 1997-1999 UO was the best MMO release and it still holds that title. It was a skill based game with a risk. You had to learn to Pvp in UO just to play the game.
Let me put it this way anyone who doesnt agree with Frank is just flat out a trammy aka Carebear these days.
Enjoy your MMSPORPG
^
Single Player
Absolutely there should be a death penalty. I never played UO but from EQ and AO I know all too well that you learn how to play your character better when there are consequences when you die. In EQ you could lose a level if you died enough giving you a very clear sense of self preservation when things started to look bad. Also AO was probably worse before they implemented the XP deficit. You could lose hours of xp if you forgot to save your character between missions or got ganked in the open areas. Losing xp is the best way to make players better at their character. If you cant get past a certain group of mobs or complete a certain quest then you cant continue to level up and become a useless level 60 like a lot of players are now a days in the new generation of MMOs where there is no real death penalty.
On the PvP note, I don't think there should be xp penalty or corpse looting, the only reward should be status (and items gained from that status) and it should be dependent on your level and the level of the person you kill. This limits how annoying griefers can be, if you don't get any status or lose status by killing characters who would have no chance of beating you anyway then there is little reason to grief. WoW has been out for over a year and they still dont have a very good pvp reward/penalty system. The rewards are pretty decent but there is no real deterrant for a level 60 to not kill a level 20 or even 40 toon.
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. ~Author Conan Doyle
Losing Exp shouldn't be a penalty for death in an MMO.
Losing your BASE/CASTLE/LAND/TERRITORY should be the penalty for failure.
We need a great MMO that allows us to fight over contested lands, imo.
i don't see how losing Base caslte ... can be a penalty ?
death is something that happen to you personaly and you should assume the consequenses
lose a battle could eventualy penalise a group/guild /realms by losing Base /caslte/ect like you say
I just have 1 point to make.
The reason newer games have lower death penalties is because of the game design.
It's way to easy to get killed in these games in pve, not to mention the 1 or 2 hit pvp kills.
Now personally I'd like to see perma death as the penalty for running your mouth like a 10 year old or screwing up a dungeon run. But until these game designers realize it's not funny or entertaining in the least to have a mob 20 levels over you wander through a newbie area, or have no way of escape if the so-called random number generator spits out 45 misses/resists in a row, then there is really no point in arguing over what penalty is or isn't suitable.
hello
imho i think it really depends on the game. IN ffxi the deathpentalty was a pain in the ass. you lost exp and nothing eles after grinding for hours. However i think when you have a big sandbox like in eve, it is very good i loose money esentully if i get killed (wich hapens more then i kill). Hell i can call on the local security detail, my corp or my alliance and hunt down ppl. and i feel as if i die and kill for a reason for control of more resources. any way i feel this is always going to be an issue much like the carebear debate. play the game you want its your money. and if it is a big enogh compnay like blizard they should have some servers that appeal to every one. and i mean more then just the pvp/pve/rp ones. Again i play what i want and leave when i want you should do the same. ;>
Welcome Home
Revren
I have to agree with Garrett. I shut down EQ because of the griefing in death penalties. I am a father of 3 and married as well as I run an I.S. Department. I have little time to deal with a pimpled face child who gets room and board from the rents to come along after being able to play for hours on a daily basis to smack me take away my time and effort. Not worth my money. And if it wasn't for all the type of gamers like me, then the financial status of making an MMO would not be worthwhile to a game company. The reason the death penalties are lowering is because it is an effective marketing strategy.
I feel if someone hates this process, there is still EQ out there and UO. Now one is stopping them from heading back to those games.
I am with Frank - death in MMOs should have a price and a meaning, not this pansy method of coddling that WoW prescribes too (amongst other games). WoW has brought people into the MMO market that were heretofor not present; good for them, let them stay in WoW. Games are fun for different people in different ways. I happen to like mine EQ style.
I don't want my hand held when I play an MMO, I want some virtual risk, some tension, and yes, sometimes some seriously annoying situations to happen. There was nothing quite like an old-school EQ PoFear wipe recovery, and games that guide you along on a leash will never capture that sense of adventure and excitement, and yes, sometimes downright frustration. Its all part of the sense of 'fun' and immersion - even the 'oogy bad things' like death penalties. Actions should have consequences, risk and reward.
Yes, death penalties hamper the market saturation. the less complicated you make a game the wider it appeals. Translate that into meaning what it may. It involves a lowest common denominater. One Im not interested in.
UO has some good shards.
But it isn't good enough, really.
There are some wicked misconceptions that we're a homogenous group of people who want to
make WoW a rotten experience out there..!
What we really want isn't a WoW driven into a system that will ultimately ruin it. What
we want is a better game. I'm not speaking for all of us, but you tend to speak of all
of us. As if we were one big group of "idiots". I shouldn't be bothered to take offense
until you started spelling out words, using appropriate punctuation and inserting a few
paragraphs for readability, but I thought a little clarification might do you some good.
You keep playing WoW, where you have to grind to level 40 before you can even start
playing the real game (that's not what you meant, but that's what it means!)
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Perhaps when you die you can make yourself logoff and do your homework,
call your girlfriend, remind your wife you're alive, go look for a job
or simply take a shower.
In RL "Earth MMORPG", If someone shoots my neighbor I don't have the
right to run over and steal everything out of his clothes so why do
people assume that we should have that right in games.
If you feel you must have pain attached to your ingame death then buy me
some beer and I'll be happy to stand behind your chair and hit you with
a shovel whenever you die but as for myself, I don't have 8 hours a day
to play that way.
Death is part and parcel of the game. Most people would say a time sink is apt reward for getting your respect behind handed to you.
I enjoyed the original UO death system. While you could get ganked its true, you could also stumble across some one elses corpse and re equip youself.
And running around going Oooo Ooo Ooo until you found some one with, ack what was that skill... darn its been over 5years or more since I played the Grand Daddy of Mmorpgs...
Its true in the beginning it suxed to die to a player who said sorry I killed you, just trying to get my skill up, but as time went on you truely learn't the art form, I had a great teacher back then, and it actually became quite a thrill to take out 3 red guys who tried to zerg, because seeming like a hapless player, and then returning fire with a combination of well honed attacks was something else, Producing a demon at will was also kinda neat to send it after the feeing so called badasses... Happy days.
The best death system I suppose would be if when you died you could take the instant xp hit, item degrade, or you had the oportunity to play a spirit realm zone, where you could much like normal play develope a spirit side to your character, which in turn made you stronger in the real world. Haha Death would actually be something to strive for just so you had extra time in Hades, a randomly generated Ldon Hell of sorts populated by mobs who hate you the most. So you'd play out your time in hell or untill some nice priest type came a long and pulled you back into the realm of the living. Give people the choice of how they'd like to play out being dead...
Rather than making death a penalty make it part of the game play
I think the problem of debating death penalties nowadays is that we look at the penalties themselves and fail to look at the surrounding context(level vs skill based systems, demographics playing, company/franchises stake in the game).
As a veteran UO and EQ1 player, I do agree that the newer games are quite boring due to many factors, including death penalty and PvP. However, on closer inspection on a game's dynamics, almost all the more recent games are level- and uber loot-centric whereas UO was primarily skill-centered(attribute/innate skills, none of the spells they call skills in GW).
With these things considered, losses of loot - even one single piece - in a more recent MMO is far more severe than it would be losing everything on your body and possibly your entire bank in something like UO. In something like EQ, a person could spend anywhere from a day to an entire month camping/grouping/raiding to get any piece of equipment and will most likely increase their stats/playing ability to some significant degree. If you were to lose all your gear, it would not only takes months to get it all back, but no one would want you on any raids or groups because you can't function or contribute in these games without equipment. In UO, you kept your skills intact for the most part and thus your stats. There was no being dropped to 1/10th of your proficency and you could spend.. what? 30 minutes gathering materials and crafting your gear back or asking someone to do it or simply buy it because it wasn't that expensive.
Exp-wise, I don't know about now but UO had the system where the level of your skill affected your stats which then affected hp/mana/etc. In your regular cookie cutter MMORPG, level and gear make those things up. Here it pretty much depends on the player what he's willing to give up for a death when he's supposed to be playing a game and having fun. In level-based RPGs, a loss in XP would constitute half a day's work or more if it were a casual player. Some people just aren't willing to give that time up. In UO, many people, as much as most will deny it, could simply macro their skills up to speed(because who wants to keep clicking on a tree, rock, or training dummy for hours when you could have it done for you in your sleep). Either way, it was quite minimal considering the effort expended and at least it was fun PKing others to build your skills back on your way to avenge your death.
And finally and most importantly to the companies that make these games, the PEOPLE playing. Before MMORPGs used to be a luxury, it was for people that had good internet connections and were willing to subscribe to a game, that is put money into it. And while looked down upon, people were selling UO accounts for thousands of dollars on Ebay and someone was more than willing to pay that kind of money. Any UO or EQ player at the time was undoubtly a hardcore player. Now it's gotten popular after all the money SoE has made off EQ and other companies want to cash in and it seems to be the evolution of PC RPGs.
You get all sorts of players from those that just wanna dip in for the experience to the hardcore of days prior. Whereas some people think a loss would be minor because it'll be gone by the end of a day; others will groan, cry, or worse because they probably won't be able to play for another week and only for a few hours at that.
You also have a giant age range now compared to before. Credit card companies issue cards even earlier, parents willing to give into our children's begging because they just have to play an MMORPG because it's of a certain franchise.*cough* And likewise, people who previously wouldn't play these P2P games because they didn't want to keep paying for a game they've already bought find themselves also giving in to play the newest adventures in Azeroth. To keep these kinds of players, a company like Blizzard has to do everything in its power to make it appealing to them, or at least remove the structures that their players would use to ridicule(like paying to work, paying to have your xp taken away from you, etc). And this is in addition on having to cater to a younger generation whose attention span isn't quite as good as they'd like.
If one were to introduce a game with extraordinary penalties from stuff like PVP and throw children into the fray, they'd also be much more easily upset that they were playing their game fine until such-and-such player came up and PKed them. They'd probably run to their parents crying "OMG SOMEONE KILLED ME~!! I LOST ALL MY WORK!". Depending on the parents the reaction would be different but the range would be anywhere from consoling said child, telling them it's just a game to cancelling their accounts or even worse, start up some lawsuit against a company for "emotional damage" that their child has been forced to endure. With people like Thompson running around with the media and Congress on his side, this is a very real and dangerous threat to game makers. It can be easily mitigated by additions to the EULA and disclaimers, but would damage the face of the company nonetheless.
And let's not forget that while we are customers to these game companies and they should listen to us, they are also in the business of making money from these games so they have to try to cater to as many niches as possible and do anything in their power to keep their customers and/or take them from other games. While I rather have some fun killing or be killed, in their eyes, alienating people who would think it's too easy is nothing compared keeping the business they have running and if the gaming development has learned anything, it's that even if someone dislikes how something is run, they'd probably buy it anyways to try it or because there's nothing else to do.
So yeah, that was sort of long-winded.. even for me. But there are a lot of reasons for why death penalties are the way they are and it's pretty difficult to compare them directly and I didn't even really touch on grieving all that much.. but that's another issue entirely.
Garrett Fuller's comments remind me of many anti pvp, anti death penalty arguments.
Not completely based on the facts.
If Garret actually did play UO his opinions probably stem from getting his tunic handed to him time and time again.
In UO you could only get player killed at a city bank if you had chosen to be in a faction, Order or Chaos or by "turning grey" or by an exploit . With the exception of exploits it was a choice that you controlled to put yourself into a pvp situation.
I've seen this cry for over 8 years in mmorpg's. Player A makes a choice to enter into a pvp situation or into a dangerous pve environment. Player A gets killed over and over and then starts the forum posting or game support messaging that changes need to be made so that they don't die over and over.
The ball starts rolling of the game getting dumb down and made easier for those players that can't cut the mustard, are too lazy to put in the effort, won't group out of greed and/or lastly spent too much time on console games with cheat codes.
I'll back up my assumption of this by another little clue within his postings.
"Killing other characters or lower level characters is called "griefing" for a reason. "
This is yet another opinion of that mind set. Sorry but killing another player isn't griefing. It's part of the game. Killing another player over and over in a situation that Player A ( the so called griefed) cannot control is griefing. Using an exploit to repeatedly kill players is another example of griefing.
In UO it was a known fact that you could be player killed if you left the protection of the town guards.
If you left town then you controlled the situation of pvp and volunteered to participate.
Instead those that didn't like it made the efforts to have the game changed to their playstyle.
And the research must have been there that the game would have more subscribers if the changes were made because it happened.
It's happened in every mmorpg that I've played. They dumb em down once the cries come in that the game is too hard.
I'm just waiting for a game to be made by someone who won't be a slave to the dollar and hold to their ideals and just tell the whiners to, "cancel, our game isn't for you."
Maybe good old Lord British and Designer Dragon will team up again and put that out and this time not succumb to the cries of , "it's too hard."
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.