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I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets
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The grinders are a rare breed, in the big picture. Grinders are fairly large suckers - they have too much time on their hands, and are complacent enough to eat the same crap patch after patch (new instance, etc etc).
Most wow players are dead miserable and are dying for an alternative to WoW. To state that 7 million players are content with WoW is just ridiculous. There would not be such heated emotions on MMORPG.com if everything was fine and dandy.
Getting killed again and again is not really a part of meaningful pvp. Anyways, if you suck at a game, you should die - again and again and again. However, smart players can fight back. Having an extensive PvE requirement to increase power on a character is not a good way to avoid abusive griefing. Plus, a level treadmill is not a necessity in an MMORPG. You can have RPG-style combat without the pointless levels.
Most people would agree that a player should not be stronger because they grind longer (except for that desperate part of society that wastes 350 hours of time levelling a wow character).
You will be eating your words when a fun PvP-based MMORPG is released and you flock to it with the rest of the herd (or flock, whatever).
What you don't understand is this:
At one time, we were ALL PvEers, crafters, raiders. Veteran MMORPG players have come to the realization that the endgame is PvP that has meaning.
The grinders can't win this argument. They will burn out on their own game. They are too busy grinding to argue their own point, enjoy the game, or earn the money to pay for the game. They will kill their own reality, because their reality sucks. Many of them are compelled by the same things that drive compulsive gamblers. MMORPG addiction is retaining the WoW community, not good ol' fashioned fun.
You will be eating your words when a fun PvP-based MMORPG is released and you flock to it with the rest of the herd (or flock, whatever).
What you don't understand is this:
At one time, we were ALL PvEers, crafters, raiders. Veteran MMORPG players have come to the realization that the endgame is PvP that has meaning.
The grinders can't win this argument. They will burn out on their own game. They are too busy grinding to argue their own point, enjoy the game, or earn the money to pay for the game. They will kill their own reality, because their reality sucks. Many of them are compelled by the same things that drive compulsive gamblers. MMORPG addiction is retaining the WoW community, not good ol' fashioned fun.
As a "veteran" I Personally don't agree with you on endgame content, so please stop making the ignorant assumption to speak for all. As for the argument there really isn't one. People have had an exchange of opinions and most are accepting of others differences. Why is it you still take a condescending tone and devalue others opinions when asking of others to hold value to your own?
As a "veteran" I Personally don't agree with you on endgame content, so please stop making the ignorant assumption to speak for all. As for the argument there really isn't one. People have had an exchange of opinions and most are accepting of others differences. Why is it you still take a condescending tone and devalue others opinions when asking of others to hold value to your own?
If you believe so strongly in opinion, then this argument should be pointless for you, and you can withdraw from it. If you argued that every thing is a function of personal opinion, then you could not argue what is better and worse. This argument is a concrete argument that includes concepts of better and worse, I'm afraid it is not your argument if you don't believe in those two things.I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I am not better than anyone here, but I do have a good grasp on MMORPG philosophy, past and present. Once again, I don't mean to offend.
I speak for many vets, not all.
This thread is pointless.
Nobody cares.
Not everyone likes the same types of games that you like. The casual gamer likes a beaten path to follow. Some people like unfolding story lines. Some people like quests and levels and raiding for gear.
Not everyone was dumped into the working world at 18. Most people play games to have a good time, and therefor will run to a GM if being harassed. MMORPG's have user end license agreements for the account you rent from the company for the monthly fee. Break those rules, you will have your 'evil' character plucked.
You call these people carebears, I call them gamers. You're of a different breed altogether. "Super-sinical-ultra-angry-at-life-nerd-type" who can spend the time to sit online for hours, not actually playing a game, but dispensing your pathetic misfortunes to others via ingame chat to people who are just trying to enjoy their play experience and also really don't give two craps about you. Nobody knows who you are, so go ahead and leave.
Don't let the door hit your bony ass on the way out.
and p.s.
NOBODY CARES!
-ganked-
2. WoW succeeded because it is an EXCELLENT MMORPG, not because it adheres to a PVE mindset. No high quality PVP mmos have been released yet. WoW is the only choice - therefore, players play WoW.
3.Most of these games failed because they were poorly programmed, had horrible customer support, and no advertising. They were just bad; NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE PVP BASED MMORPGS.
What people seem to forget, and what makes EVE so great is that PvP does not mean player kills other players. It can refer to how users interact and change the world; in EVE you change the world through not just through raw brutality, but through building alliances, raising money, collecting resources, sabotaging other corporations, creating the actual items in the game. What makes eve strong is its PvP aspects of trade, social, and combat.
What people are not admitting in this thread or anywhere else is that there are five different archetypes of games in this regard.
Dynamic PvP – The players shape the world by interacting with each other.
Static PvP- You simply fight and kill.
Dynamic PvE- The player helps shape the world by interacting with the environment laid out by developers, with each conquest, the story advances.
Static PvE- The content of the game is designed to be run through essentially the same way each time until the player gets to the “end game.” The story only advances with patches and expansions, but are not affected by the player.
Hybrids- Everything else, this is the combination of two or more of the above.
What the market is really missing is a Dynamic PvE environment, where the developers are actively changing the game to keep it interesting. This is a very hard task and its clear why this is not attempted.
Personally, I would like to see a hybrid of both Dynamic PvE and PvP. I actually like to both PvE and PvP, but there is no game on the market that can do this.
The innate sin of Mankind.
God! Leave already, this thread is pointless. Go populate whatever FFA PVP games there are and show the business there's a market. Or don't. It's like both sides are taking turns trying to sound smart to a mirror. Blah, blah, blah...
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
As a "veteran" I Personally don't agree with you on endgame content, so please stop making the ignorant assumption to speak for all. As for the argument there really isn't one. People have had an exchange of opinions and most are accepting of others differences. Why is it you still take a condescending tone and devalue others opinions when asking of others to hold value to your own?
If you believe so strongly in opinion, then this argument should be pointless for you, and you can withdraw from it. If you argued that every thing is a function of personal opinion, then you could not argue what is better and worse. This argument is a concrete argument that includes concepts of better and worse, I'm afraid it is not your argument if you don't believe in those two things.I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I am not better than anyone here, but I do have a good grasp on MMORPG philosophy, past and present. Once again, I don't mean to offend.
I speak for many vets, not all.
If you believe so strongly in opinions then maybe take your own advice and leave as you had stated. No reason to apologize for sounding condescending when technically you were in quite a few remarks that you've made on this thread. Your concrete arguments are your own just as mine or the next 5 posters that come along on this thread. You're the one who seems to hold your own opinions weight above those of others. As has been mentioned earlier there are many games that seem to fit close to your criteria but you write them off for very weak reasons such as graphics/age/population. The problem isn't the game industry the problem is you. Not every game released recently was even remotely interesting to me but I didn't go off on an online vent session to find others to make my thoughts feel rational to me. The market doesn't owe us shit, and all we can do is wait till the next games arrive. Hopefully a new game will come along to satisfy your urge but until then there is no reason to bash and ridicule others for their personal play styles. I have no problem with someone stating a preferred play style or setting to a game. I do however have a problem when people start stereotyping others just because they do not agree.As far as for you speaking for many.. Anyone can make a statement online and find people to back it up.
It's a pretty bad situation when an entire genre doesn't even have a major release for the winter.Look's like the 2 or 3 contenders have been pushed back to summer 08'.Being summer is a terrible time to release a title,were probably a year minimum from a new major release.So honestly you have no choice but to just leave/forget about the genre,and check on it maybe in a year.Giving eve a month,I'll see how that goes.
I think we will relive the glory days,just not for a while.
With all due respect to the people who are hard core fans of PVP and all it offers, it takes a rare mentality to get into it. What is challenge and passion to you, is frustration and petty drama to others. Hopefully Conan & Warhammer will provide you PVPers with something you can enjoy. Good luck finding others that give a damn, seriously.
Harshly worded, but I agree with you. Besides, they already have PvP servers, so I still don't understand why they're whining.
I have hope for only 2 games. If these 2 games(WAR and ToCS) fail me like the past 10(EQ Post PoP, DAoC Post ToA, EQ2, WoW, Horizons, D&L, Vanguard, AC2, SWG, DDO) have, then I will be joining you.
ROFL.... Wife + 2 stepdaughters. I feel that way all the time.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Why don't we play the old games? They need a graphics overhaul, more players, and some of them are practically discontinued. For now, I'm trying out all the new MMORPGs to see if anything besides eve is worth playing.
That is funny. There are games that fits your bill, but you dismiss them on grounds of graphics, on population. There are games that are clearly not built for you and you go around complaining. I suggest you foot the bill and built your own game.Rants and sacrasm off, back to topic: if there are not enough games in the market for you, or not enough gamers to play with you in your preferred games, then you have to adapt or leave. Ranting or posting endlessly here won't change the fact that no developer is now making the kind of game you want, not enough of them for sure, or you won't be leaving MMORPGs. If you finally decided to leave, then its all settled. Find another hobby, another way to kill idle time.
I don't like a lot of things on the shelves of boutiques or supermarkets, what can I do about that? Don't patronise them. That is the limit I can do, and that don't mean squad for anyone else.
I have one word for you: MUD
MUDs have always been better than MMOs IMO.
Oh you know as a fact that there is an army waiting to join your new game? Hmm very well informed indeed, can you give us a list of names of people in that army? Or just you and your family?
The grinders are a rare breed, in the big picture. Grinders are fairly large suckers - they have too much time on their hands, and are complacent enough to eat the same crap patch after patch (new instance, etc etc).
Grinders are suckers because they do not agree with you? Do not play the game you like or did they suck you day and night?
Most wow players are dead miserable and are dying for an alternative to WoW. To state that 7 million players are content with WoW is just ridiculous. There would not be such heated emotions on MMORPG.com if everything was fine and dandy.
do you know all 7 million? did you conduct at least a sample study of them? how do you know the size of the discontented wow population. Heated emotions here = discontent with WoW? How about heat emotions here b/c they do not agree with you and find you ridiculous. Your logic is really very convenient for your own use. You can just about deduce any conclusion from every piece of irrelevant evidence. Heat emotion can == 100 idle people practicing english writing here during idle hours, and these 100 may not even play WoW. Your are not reasoning, you are simply randomly writing some "facts" you perceive and sticking your completely irrelevant conclusion next to that unsubstantiated facts.
Getting killed again and again is not really a part of meaningful pvp. Anyways, if you suck at a game, you should die - again and again and again. However, smart players can fight back. Having an extensive PvE requirement to increase power on a character is not a good way to avoid abusive griefing. Plus, a level treadmill is not a necessity in an MMORPG. You can have RPG-style combat without the pointless levels.
If you suck at a game you deserve to die? Oh good, so they all deserve to die in your hands, so they should pay for a monthly account to create an alt and let you gank them, just for the purpose of keeping you happy? Ah ha, what next should they do? Build an altar outside their home and pay homage to you every morning and evening? You decide what we all should do, whether we should die ... hmm ... what did you smoke my friend?
Most people would agree that a player should not be stronger because they grind longer (except for that desperate part of society that wastes 350 hours of time levelling a wow character).
Who is the most people? You? Don't you see that this is not even an issue? This is a free country. We can do what we want even if most of the people do not feel like it. As long as we stay within the limits of the law. Last time I checked. grinding games earn the most money, does that mean most of the people actually do not agree with you, and you should be the one following them and go grind alongside? No, you need not join them, and by the same reason, they need not care for what you think.
Harsh, but most of you FFA PVP advocates on these threads bring it on yourself. Self-righteous and demeaning to anyone that doesn't buy into your way of thinking. Gets you nothing but animosity, which I think is counter-productive to your cause. But then I'm probably just a pansy-ass carebear huh? Your attitude reflects the mentality that causes you to be dismissed. Try stating your case without dumping on the opposing viewpoint (goes for both sides).
EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm saying the quoted post is somewhat justified.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
what's with all the FFA PVP threads lately guys? you guys better come back to EVE Online fast..... no MMO is perfect but EVE online is home for now. I might cheat on her (EVE) but she know I'll always come back
why all this sadness? shadowbane is still out there. come to crush
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
Are you complaining about not enough FFA PvP games or the fact the most people don't want to play in a FFA PvP environment.
Currenlty in games FFA PvP is not appealing because usually it involves one party having no chance of wining, this is usually due to the mechanics of the game either being level based or in the case of Eve the way the environment is set up. In these instances most people will not want to be the victim.
There are games that cater to FFA PvP, your problem is most of them aren't MMO's. There are a vast number of FPS games after all. It has to be said they also rely on skill and are an even playing field for all players. Of course killing someone in an FPS game doesn't cause any anguish to either party as its expected.
The only game I am looking forward to at the moment is Potbs, it has PvP built in but it is not totally unrestricted.
Darkfall is the longest running joke there is. It's the poster child for vaporware.
Amen to that!!
Play EVE