SW:ToR is not the last hope... it lacks a lot things actually.
ArcheAge is the last hope and one all the money will be riding on, with GW2 and TSW cleaning up the rest.
edit:
after everyone has read the book a couple times in ToR and made up their mind to run the treadmill getting gear as the only end-game content.... well you either chase the carrot like you did in WoW or move on to an mmo that offers a real end-game
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
And that's where things went wrong.
it seems to have garbage end-game with nothing to do but chase the carrot for better gear and nothing else to do
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
There is a few hardcore sandboxes out there. Outside of Eve though nobody plays them.
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
And that's where things went wrong.
it seems to have garbage end-game with nothing to do but chase the carrot for better gear and nothing else to do
Open world PvP, War Zones, World Arcs, flashpoints, crafting/other crew skills, Operations, all there.
If you hate themepark MMO's, you should just come out and say, at least then people who still enjoy themepark MMO's can see and say 'ah, another one of those burnt out vets that hangs around themepark MMO forums to do nothing but complain and whine rant', and put your comments better in perspective
... really, the MMO homeless sandbox loving/themepark hating/burnt out vet crowd these days...
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
And that's where things went wrong.
it seems to have garbage end-game with nothing to do but chase the carrot for better gear and nothing else to do
Open world PvP, War Zones, World Arcs, flashpoints, crafting/other crew skills, Operations, all there.
If you hate themepark MMO's, you should just come out and say, at least then people who still enjoy themepark MMO's can see and say 'ah, another one of those burnt out vets that hangs around themepark MMO forums to do nothing but complain and whine rant', and put your comments better in perspective
... really, the MMO homeless sandbox loving/themepark hating/burnt out vet crowd these days...
ya mav but all those things you listed seem dumb down or tacked on.....
it really is sad that they spent so much money but have very little to show for it
like i said you read the story a couple times then you get on the treadmill chasing the carrot for gear and thats all ToR has to offer end-game
the only thing that seems polished is the voice work and personal story there is nothing about ToR's end-game that will keep people playing beyond a couple months
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
ya mav but all those things you listed seem dumb down or tacked on.....
it really is sad that they spent so much money but have very little to show for it
like i said you read the story a couple times then you get on the treadmill chasing the carrot for gear and thats all ToR has to offer end-game
the only thing that seems polished is the voice work and personal story there is nothing about ToR's end-game that will keep people playing beyond a couple months
Gotta love those who can read the future off the back of a cereal box. The things Mav listed could go anyway as far as how well they hold players, it's all in the execution. Which no one knows the final verdict on at this point.
He also left out the solo content that's available after you've finished your story. I guess that's just tacked on to though, right?
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
ya mav but all those things you listed seem dumb down or tacked on.....
it really is sad that they spent so much money but have very little to show for it
like i said you read the story a couple times then you get on the treadmill chasing the carrot for gear and thats all ToR has to offer end-game
the only thing that seems polished is the voice work and personal story there is nothing about ToR's end-game that will keep people playing beyond a couple months
Well, let's be fair about it, you can blame WoW about that. WoW showed without any doubt that you can have an MMORPG that has the features that you (and others) despise, and it'll be enough to attract players 20 to 50 times more than seen previously in any MMO or afterwards and, what's more important, be able to keep that large number of them playing for 5+ years.
Am I surprised about it? Heck, yes I am!!
I'd never expected people to play the same game for more than 2 years at the most, because I myself am not like that, and can't imagine how it won't get boring after so many hours, thousands and more, playing the same game. On the other hand, when I look back it's often the community that kept me playing an MMO, if your friends and family and comrades are playing it then you'll stick around longer too, maybe this is the factor that most people incl devs forget, community as MMO life extension.
But there you have it, WoW's phenomenal success has caused a lot of people to believe it hit the golden formula. I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, SWTOR would certainly have been a different kind of game, just like a number of other MMO's of the past 6 years.
People can deny it all they want, but the hard facts are that 10+ million people have been playing the most an MMO that solely used themepark gameplay features, for the better part of 5-6 years.
You can say that those themepark gameplay features are boring and 'have nothing to offer', but to 10+ million people they actually did have something to offer, enough for them to have fun while playing and to keep subbed.
As for SWTOR, I think it's pretty unfair to regard SWTOR like that: if you don't like themepark MMO's because you're getting sick to the point of vomiting of them, then fine, that's your MMO preferences. However, as a themepark MMO and judging it as a themepark MMOwhat I see is that SWTOR has as much and more to offer as the best of the themepark MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If Star Wars: The Old Republic fails, the genre won't take that big of a hit. If anything, Jeff Strain would sit back in his Undead Labs office and say "I told you so".
"Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones1 – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero." - Jeff Strain, How To Create A Successful MMO, 2007
That being said, it's highly unlikely that TOR won't be intially successful due to the hype, and the Bioware formula done 10 fold in a massively multiplayer universe does have a lot of appeal among a lot of gamers.
1 Pretty sure he's talking about Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings Online? Given the date, it more than likely wasn't Star Wars The Old Republic.
1 Pretty sure he's talking about Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings Online? Given the date, it more than likely wasn't Star Wars The Old Republic.
I think he meant Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, after all, there has been a SW MMO before named SWG. Those were the big 2 he referred that as he said weren't as successful as was expected from their IP.
Besides that, it's easy to spout all kinds of things, but often enough it turns out people, even experts on their field, are proven wrong in their statements by developments as well. But yes, an IP isn't a surefire guarantee that your MMO will be a giant success, I think that's pretty safe to say.
edit: based on the date that Jeff Strain made that statement, I think that he didn't mean LotrO but SWG and The Matrix Online.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Mark my words, this game will fail if you're comparing it to WoW. This will not hold near the subscription base of WoW. It will be just like every other mmo. First couple monthes it will be a big hit. After that the newness of it all goes away and you're left with what the game actually gives you. Is there big innovation in Star wars that seperates it from the current king? I seriously doubt it despite what a lot of the fanboys will try to get you to believe. Trust me I was in a similar situation with Warhammer where I thought it was gonna be huge simply because it was made by the people that made the game that is by far for its time period the best mmo DaoC. Boy was I wrong on that though. They tried to take too much from WoW and not enough new inovative stuff or stuff that DaoC had that made it a success.
This is why the mmo genre for me rides hugely on Guild Wars 2. This game has taken a huge step in the opposite direction of the current mmo market of making games that cater to the WoW gamer. What Guild wars 2 developers understand that the other MMO developers dont seem to get is that WoW players actually dont want another game that plays anything like WoW. They want something new and innovative, and not the same stuff they do in WoW. Chances are you wont build a game that does what wow does better if you have the same core system that wow has.
It is my personal opinion that Star Wars will in fact fail. It maybe be different from WoW but so was Warhammer, the problem is it's the same core game just not as good. You do the same stuff in Warhammer that you do in WoW with battlegrounds and raiding. Same thing with Star wars. The core of the game is the same and i'm sure you'll try to convince me otherwise but give the game a couple monthes of play and tell me im wrong.
WOW almost destroyed the MMORPG genre with its instant easy everything attitude. No game can undo WOWs damage by itself, its going to take a number of game slowly easing us back into previous levels of challenge and difficulty before the Genre is truely in a healthy state again.
TOR is simply a step in the right direction.
I aggree that WoW did a lot of indirect damage to MMOG genre. (WoW is not an MMORPG).
1) they took the liberty to don't care about the RP part. The pace(mechanics) of modern MMOG's, leave little, if anytime to roleplay.
2) They took the liberty of not creating new mechanics, but only polishing on and to some degree evolving EQ's mechanics. Basics are still the same.
SWTOR is not different. So a strongly disaggree that it a step in the right direction. Because it is a step in the same direction as WoW.
I hope for new mechanics. Because to me, it feels like I am reading the same book over and over, only written by different authors, who just twist the story of the original author. (refererring to mechanics, not storyline.)
If you know about any game thinking outside this box (except for EVE, which I am highly familiar with), would you please be so kind to inform me. Because I really want to try something new, fresh and original !
I am very bored with 12 years old mechanics, constantly being presented in new clothings.
WOW almost destroyed the MMORPG genre with its instant easy everything attitude. No game can undo WOWs damage by itself, its going to take a number of game slowly easing us back into previous levels of challenge and difficulty before the Genre is truely in a healthy state again.
TOR is simply a step in the right direction.
I aggree that WoW did a lot of indirect damage to MMOG genre. (WoW is not an MMORPG).
1) they took the liberty to don't care about the RP part. The pace(mechanics) of modern MMOG's, leave little, if anytime to roleplay.
2) They took the liberty of not creating new mechanics, but only polishing on and to some degree evolving EQ's mechanics. Basics are still the same.
SWTOR is not different. So a strongly disaggree that it a step in the right direction. Because it is a step in the same direction as WoW.
I hope for new mechanics. Because to me, it feels like I am reading the same book over and over, only written by different authors, who just twist the story of the original author. (refererring to mechanics, not storyline.)
If you know about any game thinking outside this box (except for EVE, which I am highly familiar with), would you please be so kind to inform me. Because I really want to try something new, fresh and original !
I am very bored with 12 years old mechanics, constantly being presented in new clothings.
This is what I said about Vanguard, yet I'm still looking forward to each Next Big Thing, which I think is always our last hope, because we're sensationalist ubernerds who live in this market.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
My first post on this forum, its reputation has kept me away for, well since its creation, and as I read some replies I see the reputation was well earned indeed.
As for TOR being the savior of MMORPGs, probably not.
But TOR failing will push MMORPG developement into a endless spiral of WOW development only for the next 10 years.
Few points:
1) TOR is not WOW in Space and anyone that makes the claim is a idiot. They about as smart as the idiots that claimed SWG was EQ in Space when it launched. Just a popular tag for haters to grasp hold off that showcases their stupidity and ignorance. TOR has a number of innovative ideas that will carry the genre forward if they work but even more importantly TOR "STARTS" to increase the time invenstment concept.
Now other MMORPGs will need to catch on and continue to increase the time investment concept even more and hopefully in 10 years we back to PRE WOW LEVELS where people still felt getting to max level was a accomplishment and not a mindless gimme like WOW turned it into.
2) GW2 is not going to be a industry leader or battle as the number 1 MMO, hell its not even going to battle as the number 10 MMO, and nothing its doing will evolutionize the MMO market!
F2P and B2P microtransaction games will always be the dredges of the universe and attract the very worst players of the genre and nothing those games do will effect the MMORPG genre in any way.
Hell if Arena net had any real expectations from the game they would try the subscription rate concept as thats where the biggest money is, but Arenanet knows good and well what their game is and where it belongs so I really wish TOR haters and 13 year old kids with no allowance wopuld shut up already about GW2. It will make its money back and earn a small profit for Arena net and thats all its every been designed to do!
3) WOW destroyed this genre, utterly destroyed it. Games have tried to copy WOW but have learned that once WOW players got bored, they didnt want to replay WOW, but they were so spoiled with instant graftification of WOW (no challenge, no time investment, no nothing, everything handed to them on a wish and dream) that being challenged scares them that they hesitant to buy into a game that will challenge them.
And thats where TOR fits in, its easy enough that the gimme generation are still happy but has raised the bar just slightly for other game developers to build on.
Closing
WOW almost destroyed the MMORPG genre with its instant easy everything attitude. No game can undo WOWs damage by itself, its going to take a number of game slowly easing us back into previous levels of challenge and difficulty before the Genre is truely in a healthy state again.
TOR is simply a step in the right direction.
Lygar's post made me laugh, so I give him a gleeful little applaud.
I do find it funny while sifting through the garbage of this thread, to find people comparing guildwars and warcraft. This thread might be the first time I've ever seen anyone call Guildwars a WoW clone. A moment of this grandeur deserves some sort of celebration, doesn't it?
But back on topic, peeling away the IP from the SWTOR, what is it that this game brings to the genre that people are so excited about? When I watch videos for this game, I only see very small scaled and slow paced gameplay, but when I think of StarWars, I think of moments from StarWars BF2's conversion pack. A certain game setting or mod, would allow for a spawn 200+ units on a field at any give time. I feel like the Battlefront series were the only StarWars games that captured the chaos of war.
Star Wars Galaxies had its moments before the combat patch, but they were very rare. Maybe once a week you could find a MASSIVE fight between rebel and imperial. Although I remember very very early in the game there was a sort of battle ground, I don't remember how many were available and I only got to play once, it was dome like forcefield that encased a certain area in Talus. Though after that I could never join one again. I'm guessing the project was scrapped at some point.
What I was getting at is when I think about Star Wars, I think about the "wars" part of it, battles so intense that peaking out from your cover that your using in a fire fight would naturally make you crap your pants.
Even though I tend to lose my train of thought, I guess what I'm asking is, what is it that SWTOR offers that makes you aspire to it so badly?
1. I keep hearing people saw "Big deal if SWTOR fails, we have GW2".
- First off thats crap, GW isn't an MMORPG to begin with, it's an RPG with online elements, unless they are changing that fact in GW2, i ain't buy that.
- 2nd off, the players of the GW franchise are not the -bulk- of the MMO consumer base, they are not even an MMO consumer, again, i ain't buying it.
2. If not SWTOR then what? It will always be the same -- " hype that game, it fails, hype this game it fails", rinse repeat.. the industry will degrade into superficial titles that become money sinks for both consumer, and industry, open your eyes Vet MMO'ers are already quitting the genre in flocks for so many this is the last chance.
It's a valid question, but unfortunately here is where you kind of screwed up the conversation
So, I think you should stop thinking about the question alltoghether and go read up on GW2. Its obvious you don't know anything about it by your comments. I think you should have read up on GW2 as soon as you saw all the "Big deal if SWTOR fails, we have GW2" comments. They are there for a reason
Go read up and come back to us with a better idea of why SWTOR is not our last hope
^ this
GW2 is where the MMO genre is taking its first big step towards change..
SWTOR is going to be a good game,but its going to be your run of the mill quest grind style MMO with voice acting instead of text,which isnt enough of a difference imo.The main selling points for TOR are the Star Wars IP,Voice Acting,and maybe it being Biowares 1st MMO,other than that it'll be run of the mill.
Alot of people realize this,alot of people are also turned away by it.
Everytime I read one of these fanboi posts, it brings a tear to my eye because I know there is still child-like naivety in the world. Neither of these games are going to bring anything new to the table. If GW2 is where the genre is going, then its time to throw in the chips and fold now. And despite the OPs original premise being wrong, he does have two valid points here. No matter what the diehards would have you believe, GW2 doesnt bring anymore change than SWTOR does. Repackaged phasing and the ability to dodge things traveling less than a mph be damned.
1. I keep hearing people saw "Big deal if SWTOR fails, we have GW2".
- First off thats crap, GW isn't an MMORPG to begin with, it's an RPG with online elements, unless they are changing that fact in GW2, i ain't buy that.
- 2nd off, the players of the GW franchise are not the -bulk- of the MMO consumer base, they are not even an MMO consumer, again, i ain't buying it.
2. If not SWTOR then what? It will always be the same -- " hype that game, it fails, hype this game it fails", rinse repeat.. the industry will degrade into superficial titles that become money sinks for both consumer, and industry, open your eyes Vet MMO'ers are already quitting the genre in flocks for so many this is the last chance.
It's a valid question, but unfortunately here is where you kind of screwed up the conversation
So, I think you should stop thinking about the question alltoghether and go read up on GW2. Its obvious you don't know anything about it by your comments. I think you should have read up on GW2 as soon as you saw all the "Big deal if SWTOR fails, we have GW2" comments. They are there for a reason
Go read up and come back to us with a better idea of why SWTOR is not our last hope
^ this
GW2 is where the MMO genre is taking its first big step towards change..
SWTOR is going to be a good game,but its going to be your run of the mill quest grind style MMO with voice acting instead of text,which isnt enough of a difference imo.The main selling points for TOR are the Star Wars IP,Voice Acting,and maybe it being Biowares 1st MMO,other than that it'll be run of the mill.
Alot of people realize this,alot of people are also turned away by it.
Everytime time I read one of these fanboi posts, it brings a tear to my eye because I know there is still child-like naivety in the world. Neither of these games are going to bring anything new to the table. If GW2 is where the genre is going, then its time to throw in the chips and fold now. And despite the OPs original premise being wrong, he does have two valid points here. No matter what the diehards would have you believe, GW2 doesnt bring anymore change than SWTOR does. Repackaged phasing and the ability to dodge things traveling less than a mph be damned.
When one folds, one throws in the cards not the chips. Just FYI.
SW:ToR will fail big-time guys! Just face the facts of what you REALLY know about the game - close to nothing. Most 'facts' posted here are rumor and hype and everyone is over-excited because BioWare (I agree, one of the the best RPG producers around) makes an MMO of one of the biggest IP franchises.
Will the genre fail..? Nah... It's like I've read on these forums before - somehow developers are not really innovative anymore and rather go save by copy/paste excisting ideas. We all know the phrase "better well stolen than badly invented". This goes for the MMO industry as well, but after the 1000th WoW clone (just to drop a term here we're sick of the same old all over again with new graphics. Just bring us something REAL new & refreshing!
Oh yes... SW_ToR claims to be innovative and have new & refreshing things, but by the looks of it, it's yet an other 2-faction PvP system with limited character customisation (4 classes - WTF are they thinking?)...
WOW almost destroyed the MMORPG genre with its instant easy everything attitude. No game can undo WOWs damage by itself, its going to take a number of game slowly easing us back into previous levels of challenge and difficulty before the Genre is truely in a healthy state again.
TOR is simply a step in the right direction.
I aggree that WoW did a lot of indirect damage to MMOG genre. (WoW is not an MMORPG).
1) they took the liberty to don't care about the RP part. The pace(mechanics) of modern MMOG's, leave little, if anytime to roleplay.
2) They took the liberty of not creating new mechanics, but only polishing on and to some degree evolving EQ's mechanics. Basics are still the same.
SWTOR is not different. So a strongly disaggree that it a step in the right direction. Because it is a step in the same direction as WoW.
I hope for new mechanics. Because to me, it feels like I am reading the same book over and over, only written by different authors, who just twist the story of the original author. (refererring to mechanics, not storyline.)
If you know about any game thinking outside this box (except for EVE, which I am highly familiar with), would you please be so kind to inform me. Because I really want to try something new, fresh and original !
I am very bored with 12 years old mechanics, constantly being presented in new clothings.
Help me out please !
Good luck.
Thank you.
Though I somehow doubt your sincerity. I smell a tiny bit of sarcasm
Comments
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Now that's a bit of an overstatement.
SW:ToR is not the last hope... it lacks a lot things actually.
ArcheAge is the last hope and one all the money will be riding on, with GW2 and TSW cleaning up the rest.
edit:
after everyone has read the book a couple times in ToR and made up their mind to run the treadmill getting gear as the only end-game content.... well you either chase the carrot like you did in WoW or move on to an mmo that offers a real end-game
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I hope it does fail OR the MMORPG genre IS going to be crap. I read it's super casual garbage with the amount of content should be a single player game with a free multiplayer option online.
And that's where things went wrong.
it seems to have garbage end-game with nothing to do but chase the carrot for better gear and nothing else to do
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
There is a few hardcore sandboxes out there. Outside of Eve though nobody plays them.
Open world PvP, War Zones, World Arcs, flashpoints, crafting/other crew skills, Operations, all there.
If you hate themepark MMO's, you should just come out and say, at least then people who still enjoy themepark MMO's can see and say 'ah, another one of those burnt out vets that hangs around themepark MMO forums to do nothing but complain and whine rant', and put your comments better in perspective
... really, the MMO homeless sandbox loving/themepark hating/burnt out vet crowd these days...
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
ya mav but all those things you listed seem dumb down or tacked on.....
it really is sad that they spent so much money but have very little to show for it
like i said you read the story a couple times then you get on the treadmill chasing the carrot for gear and thats all ToR has to offer end-game
the only thing that seems polished is the voice work and personal story there is nothing about ToR's end-game that will keep people playing beyond a couple months
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Gotta love those who can read the future off the back of a cereal box. The things Mav listed could go anyway as far as how well they hold players, it's all in the execution. Which no one knows the final verdict on at this point.
He also left out the solo content that's available after you've finished your story. I guess that's just tacked on to though, right?
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Well, let's be fair about it, you can blame WoW about that. WoW showed without any doubt that you can have an MMORPG that has the features that you (and others) despise, and it'll be enough to attract players 20 to 50 times more than seen previously in any MMO or afterwards and, what's more important, be able to keep that large number of them playing for 5+ years.
Am I surprised about it? Heck, yes I am!!
I'd never expected people to play the same game for more than 2 years at the most, because I myself am not like that, and can't imagine how it won't get boring after so many hours, thousands and more, playing the same game. On the other hand, when I look back it's often the community that kept me playing an MMO, if your friends and family and comrades are playing it then you'll stick around longer too, maybe this is the factor that most people incl devs forget, community as MMO life extension.
But there you have it, WoW's phenomenal success has caused a lot of people to believe it hit the golden formula. I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, SWTOR would certainly have been a different kind of game, just like a number of other MMO's of the past 6 years.
People can deny it all they want, but the hard facts are that 10+ million people have been playing the most an MMO that solely used themepark gameplay features, for the better part of 5-6 years.
You can say that those themepark gameplay features are boring and 'have nothing to offer', but to 10+ million people they actually did have something to offer, enough for them to have fun while playing and to keep subbed.
As for SWTOR, I think it's pretty unfair to regard SWTOR like that: if you don't like themepark MMO's because you're getting sick to the point of vomiting of them, then fine, that's your MMO preferences. However, as a themepark MMO and judging it as a themepark MMO what I see is that SWTOR has as much and more to offer as the best of the themepark MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If Star Wars: The Old Republic fails, the genre won't take that big of a hit. If anything, Jeff Strain would sit back in his Undead Labs office and say "I told you so".
"Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones1 – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero." - Jeff Strain, How To Create A Successful MMO, 2007
That being said, it's highly unlikely that TOR won't be intially successful due to the hype, and the Bioware formula done 10 fold in a massively multiplayer universe does have a lot of appeal among a lot of gamers.
1 Pretty sure he's talking about Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings Online? Given the date, it more than likely wasn't Star Wars The Old Republic.
I think he meant Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, after all, there has been a SW MMO before named SWG. Those were the big 2 he referred that as he said weren't as successful as was expected from their IP.
Besides that, it's easy to spout all kinds of things, but often enough it turns out people, even experts on their field, are proven wrong in their statements by developments as well. But yes, an IP isn't a surefire guarantee that your MMO will be a giant success, I think that's pretty safe to say.
edit: based on the date that Jeff Strain made that statement, I think that he didn't mean LotrO but SWG and The Matrix Online.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Mark my words, this game will fail if you're comparing it to WoW. This will not hold near the subscription base of WoW. It will be just like every other mmo. First couple monthes it will be a big hit. After that the newness of it all goes away and you're left with what the game actually gives you. Is there big innovation in Star wars that seperates it from the current king? I seriously doubt it despite what a lot of the fanboys will try to get you to believe. Trust me I was in a similar situation with Warhammer where I thought it was gonna be huge simply because it was made by the people that made the game that is by far for its time period the best mmo DaoC. Boy was I wrong on that though. They tried to take too much from WoW and not enough new inovative stuff or stuff that DaoC had that made it a success.
This is why the mmo genre for me rides hugely on Guild Wars 2. This game has taken a huge step in the opposite direction of the current mmo market of making games that cater to the WoW gamer. What Guild wars 2 developers understand that the other MMO developers dont seem to get is that WoW players actually dont want another game that plays anything like WoW. They want something new and innovative, and not the same stuff they do in WoW. Chances are you wont build a game that does what wow does better if you have the same core system that wow has.
It is my personal opinion that Star Wars will in fact fail. It maybe be different from WoW but so was Warhammer, the problem is it's the same core game just not as good. You do the same stuff in Warhammer that you do in WoW with battlegrounds and raiding. Same thing with Star wars. The core of the game is the same and i'm sure you'll try to convince me otherwise but give the game a couple monthes of play and tell me im wrong.
I aggree that WoW did a lot of indirect damage to MMOG genre. (WoW is not an MMORPG).
1) they took the liberty to don't care about the RP part. The pace(mechanics) of modern MMOG's, leave little, if anytime to roleplay.
2) They took the liberty of not creating new mechanics, but only polishing on and to some degree evolving EQ's mechanics. Basics are still the same.
SWTOR is not different. So a strongly disaggree that it a step in the right direction. Because it is a step in the same direction as WoW.
I hope for new mechanics. Because to me, it feels like I am reading the same book over and over, only written by different authors, who just twist the story of the original author. (refererring to mechanics, not storyline.)
If you know about any game thinking outside this box (except for EVE, which I am highly familiar with), would you please be so kind to inform me. Because I really want to try something new, fresh and original !
I am very bored with 12 years old mechanics, constantly being presented in new clothings.
Help me out please !
Good luck.
This is what I said about Vanguard, yet I'm still looking forward to each Next Big Thing, which I think is always our last hope, because we're sensationalist ubernerds who live in this market.
This game's gonna suck my balls all night, but with braces... oh god!
Lygar's post made me laugh, so I give him a gleeful little applaud.
I do find it funny while sifting through the garbage of this thread, to find people comparing guildwars and warcraft. This thread might be the first time I've ever seen anyone call Guildwars a WoW clone. A moment of this grandeur deserves some sort of celebration, doesn't it?
But back on topic, peeling away the IP from the SWTOR, what is it that this game brings to the genre that people are so excited about? When I watch videos for this game, I only see very small scaled and slow paced gameplay, but when I think of StarWars, I think of moments from StarWars BF2's conversion pack. A certain game setting or mod, would allow for a spawn 200+ units on a field at any give time. I feel like the Battlefront series were the only StarWars games that captured the chaos of war.
Star Wars Galaxies had its moments before the combat patch, but they were very rare. Maybe once a week you could find a MASSIVE fight between rebel and imperial. Although I remember very very early in the game there was a sort of battle ground, I don't remember how many were available and I only got to play once, it was dome like forcefield that encased a certain area in Talus. Though after that I could never join one again. I'm guessing the project was scrapped at some point.
What I was getting at is when I think about Star Wars, I think about the "wars" part of it, battles so intense that peaking out from your cover that your using in a fire fight would naturally make you crap your pants.
Even though I tend to lose my train of thought, I guess what I'm asking is, what is it that SWTOR offers that makes you aspire to it so badly?
Everytime I read one of these fanboi posts, it brings a tear to my eye because I know there is still child-like naivety in the world. Neither of these games are going to bring anything new to the table. If GW2 is where the genre is going, then its time to throw in the chips and fold now. And despite the OPs original premise being wrong, he does have two valid points here. No matter what the diehards would have you believe, GW2 doesnt bring anymore change than SWTOR does. Repackaged phasing and the ability to dodge things traveling less than a mph be damned.
When one folds, one throws in the cards not the chips. Just FYI.
Because we all know that inclusion of mounts makes or brakes a MMO.
Eat me!
As opposed to what? Another WoW clone?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
...not reading the whole thread..
SW:ToR will fail big-time guys! Just face the facts of what you REALLY know about the game - close to nothing. Most 'facts' posted here are rumor and hype and everyone is over-excited because BioWare (I agree, one of the the best RPG producers around) makes an MMO of one of the biggest IP franchises.
Will the genre fail..? Nah... It's like I've read on these forums before - somehow developers are not really innovative anymore and rather go save by copy/paste excisting ideas. We all know the phrase "better well stolen than badly invented". This goes for the MMO industry as well, but after the 1000th WoW clone (just to drop a term here
we're sick of the same old all over again with new graphics. Just bring us something REAL new & refreshing!
Oh yes... SW_ToR claims to be innovative and have new & refreshing things, but by the looks of it, it's yet an other 2-faction PvP system with limited character customisation (4 classes - WTF are they thinking?)...
Thank you.
Though I somehow doubt your sincerity. I smell a tiny bit of sarcasm