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The myth of the "WoW Crowd"
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
There is a common belief among many posters in this forum that the MMORPG market is dominated by this incomprehensible group called the "WoW Crowd." And by this, I don't just mean "those who play WoW." I mean a group consisting of players who disdain any kind of game that is not almost exactly like WoW. Anytime we discuss a game that deviates from the WoW, someone will inevitably say "well the WoW crowd won't get it."
I think that the "WoW crowd" is bunk. I don't believe that the vast majority of the MMORPG market is dominated by a group of players so close minded that they will only play games like WoW. Why do I hold this rebel belief do you ask? Well it's because I looked at a lot of the common reasoning that leads one to believe that the "WoW crowd" is real...and it's pretty sketcy. Here are some of the common arguments along with why they aren't so solid:
ARGUMENT: WoW has 12 million subscribers while hardly any other MMORPGs pass 1 million.
Misleading. The majority of WoW's "subscribers" are in China, and they don't pay the monthly fee like N. Americans do. WoW's total box sales in N. America is actually closer to 3-4 million than 12. It's a faulty comparison when you compare the N. America sales of another MMORPG to the total amount of people that have played WoW worldwide.
ARGUMENT: The vast majority of players don't want a challenge and want everything handed to them. If you make a challenging MMORPG, hardly anyone will buy it.
Probably not true. Dark Souls is a RIDICULOUSLY challenging game...probably more challenging than any MMORPG to ever be released, and yet it has already sold 620K units in North American despite being a relatively recent release. It will very likely breach 1 million N. American sales in the long run, and that's a very respectable 1/3rd - 1/4th of WoW's total sales. The fact that a game that is so ridiculously, brutally, challenging sold so well tells me that the "fact" that the vast majority of players don't want a challenge is bunk.
ARGUMENT: Players want to be hand held. They won't play a game with non-linear "sandbox" gameplay that focuses on world interactivity.
Flat out WRONG. You want proof? Just look at single player games. Oblivion sold about 1.7 million units in 2006 with N America making up the majority of those sales. So it's probably safe to say it sold 2 million in N. America by now. That's 1/2 - 2/3rds of WoW's N. American sales. And yet Oblivion features highly non-linear gameplay, tons of world interactivity, and hardly any hand-holding at all. GTA is another big seller that has similar features (though it is less "sandboxy"). This to me, completely disproves the notion that the vast majority of players need to be "hand-held" to enjoy a game.
Source: http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/10671/The-Elder-Scrolls-IV-Oblivion-Breaks-Record-Sales/
ARGUMENT: Every sandbox game to come out in recent time has failed horribly. Therefore most people prefer the WoW model.
Misleading. Every sandbox that has been released since SWG (which had its own issues) has been an indie mess, low quality, unpolished, and full of bugs. In addition, most of them just try to emulate the success of a game that game out in 1998 (and fail horribly at that) instead of trying to be original and evolve the genre. These "failures" are terrible examples. It would be like concluding that people hate movies because every movie released is the quality of "Gigli."
So what's my point in all this? I want to try to dispel the perception that we're stuck with WoW clones because they are the only games with a chance at success. I don't believe that this "WoW Crowd" dominates the market as so many others do.
So what are your thoughts? After reading my counters to common arguments, do you agree or disagree?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Comments
the myth of the wow crowd...
...They're out there, you can't see them...but they are, I know it.
..I can smell em..
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Can't compare offline RPG's to MMO's when talking about difficulty. Once the monthly fees start along with difficult content that has players sitting around waiting for groups, the entire perception of what players really want changes.
Achievements are a better 'reward' for completing content and everyone should be allowed to get very similiar gear.
Right? Cause we know an achievement is totally much more satisfying then getting some nice gear to show off and make you stronger in an RPG. We fight hard to get some tad bit of text we can screen shot rather then some awesome looking weapon or armor that not only makes you look nice but also makes you just a bit stronger.
Raid progression in a game focused on end game content is stale. Having everyone being able to experience every bit of accomplishment is better!
Cause we all want to be at the same exact dungeons at the same time, running mass dungeons of the same type with the only variation being 'heroic' mode which jsut makes it harder and nothing more. Who needs 'progression' being able to feel an achievement for getting harder content when you can brag that you were at the same exact place everyone and their mother has done already!
I will admit the community on this website is very "anti WoW" and I think because of this you don't see a lot of the "WoW crowd" on this site. That's not to say that they do not exist. I have a few friends, well more a than a few that I would say fit into the "WoW Crowd."
For many of them it is their first MMO and because of that it's what they compare all other MMOs to. I used to be this way, DAoC was my first MMO and up until I played FFXI for 3 times as long it was what I compared all other games to. It's only natural for people to do that. It's not a myth though, they are out there and most of them are still playing WoW or not playing any MMORPGs at all. Plus visiting forums at all or at the least forums that aren't official forums is something foreign and mysterious to many of them.
Why you can't see them...but you can still smell them:
As to the OP's post though, I find it somewhat ironic in a sense. Think about all the people that talk about the WoW-clones, as if WoW was the first MMORPG and not some form of EQ-Clone. So yes, much in the same sense that "everything" revolves around WoW (whether it does or does not); the term WoW Crowd is used in relation to those players.
They existed before WoW. No doubt there are more of them now, but they are not really the WoW Crowd. They definitely exist though, mislabeled or not.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Myth?
It's a well know fact what that means and who they are.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
ohhh... makes so much more sense now.
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A valid point. However, what if both solo and group content were to be made more difficult. People will always wait to form groups to do group content, be it in WoW or FFXI (if it's level appropriate content). If you make solo content harder, the solo player will feel that added difficulty while not having to resort to grouping.
while i think you have good intentions, this topic completely ignores the numerous examples of hand holding games that sell as much as three to ten times more than the ones you listed as proof of your point. this topic is basically invalid and fallacious.
No.
Like...what? Oblivion sold 2-3 million copies...what hand holding RPG game sold 10 times more (in North America)? Once again...bunk.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I must of been dreaming when I played Rift beta, and all that people talked about in the betas was WoW and how it compared to Rift and so forth...
I am usually lost on any of it, as I only played WoW beta.
I do not think comparing single player RPGs is a arguement for MMOs.
Even if you are correct, most of the people that fund games think you are wrong, as is evident by 99% of the MMOs that are released.
I wish it wasn't so, as I prefer some sandbox in my themepark, and it seems we may be headed in that direction again, as people are getting tired of the 'clone wars' (oh yes I did!), and playing the same thing.
Nice arguements, but equal and better ones can easily be made...I mean the proof is in the pudding, if the masses didn't yell and scream for it, it wouldn't happen....People forget though, and not many talk about it, the 'dumbing down', 'convienience', or whatever you want to call some of it, really started with later EQ, with LDoN and such.... When people cried about stuff and killed the original spirit of the game....Now everything is a over-instanced mess imo....So I guess you may be more right than I originally thought comparing mmos to single player rpgs, since thats almost what games have become lately, with all the instancing.
You're assuming that "difficulty" in MMORPG equals "tedium." I'm talking about actual challenge here...not just having to spend more time doing something easy.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Unless you're a Market Analyst expert, you can see what they think if you follow the money trail which proves you wrong.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
What the developers and investors "think" is not law. Also I gave plenty of examples of "the money trail" leading to more non-linear experiences in single player games.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah, 10 years ago they didn't whine, they just murdered you and stole all your stuff. Things have really gone down hill...
There were always a**holes in MMORPGs. I don't really see that, that has changed very much.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Go join a beta of any game almost, that has a good amount of people in it....See what is all that they talk about in the world chat...WoW...WoW has this...WoW did that.....WoW is much better, this game sucks.....WoW has more content....WoW...WoW...WoW.....
They must all be paid by 'the man', that keeps this myth alive!
Hey this is my experience though, yours may vary, but I can only go by what I see and read...
I mostly agree with what you are saying. There certainly has not been a good example of a sandbox type game since The late 90's. I don't agree with the Oblivion sales thing because many of those people may be against paying subs... However if guildwars 2 has an influence those might be a thing of the past.
If the question is: Would an extremely polished and innovative AAA Sandbox MMORPG with no Sub be popular?
I think it certainly would be. But will it ever happen?
I grew up on UO and AC Darktide. My best gaming memories are from them and I would love to experience it again. But I've given up honestly. So see you in SWTOR....
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Sorry not feeling well,but you sort of lost me.
It seemed like you were trying to compare the "WOW" generation of gamers which btw DO make up the majority of gamers,but then strayed off to another topic?
As for some of your examples,i don't want to break those games down and disucss good or bad.However i will point out that you are talking about anywhere up to a couple million gamers for these games.That numbers is important because there is imo a few million gamers floating around that will play just about anything and another few million that will hop game to game or buy every newly hyped game that comes out.
This is why many new games if they hit the right marketing and timed release get their 2 million players,it is still a far cry from the majority of WOW gamers and in MANY cases those 2 million floating around are made up of former Wow players.
You see in game chats and arguments break out over WOW,well why are those people not playing WOW?I think it is rather easy to answer that question ,but again another topic.
You don't even have to witness the WOW crowd inside of game chat,you will see on forums,things like as the OP mentioned "WOW has 11 million gamers" it MUST be the best game.What does 10,000,999 other gamers have to do with YOUR indiividual choice as a gamer to decide what is good or bad?If we want to throw around numbers ,trhen i guess Zynga is the best developer and Farmville is the best game.
There is more registered users playing Zynga games than the entire MMORPG market has,so numbers mean absolutely nothing,it just means they are making a lot of money.
Bottom line is ,anyone that has paid attentioin has seen VERY easily the changes in community since Wow came out.Part of the blame can be laid onto the other non Wow gamers but after seeing hundreds of atagonizing theads telling others about the 5/7/10..12 million Wow numbers=great game ,it gets annoying.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You're asking us to prove something that is widely known and accepted, only you and a few others think it is a myth. So don't expect people to come up with an argument that's going to knock your socks off. If you really want proof, go play WoW or check out http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
They are out there, even if you come up with clever ways to try and say they're not doesn't change the fact that they exist and many of us have come across them and continue to come across them. Not to mention we see their influence constantly in the way games have been developed over the last few years.
It appears you want flow charts and data sets for us to prove that we're right but why bother explaining something and proving what is considered common knowledge by the masses. It's not as if we're saying the world is flat or something crazy, we're basing our claims of off observations we've made and many people have also made so it is reasonable to infer that our observations are true.
Play any newly launched MMO and read the general chat in the first few weeks of release, you will find your "WOW crowd" there.