There is some people moaning about how this is pay to win with regards to housing. Can I please just mention that the only thing you are getting is the materials to build a basic house from my understanding.
That will not stop anyone else from playing the game putting in more hours than the person pledging in kickstarter and getting the materials to build a much better house and they won't have to pay a penny more than their subscription/life.
All it is doing is saying oh you bought a collectors edition of the gsme here is your kickstart in game in reward for you kickstaring the game studio.
You are missing the point by such a wide margin that I wonder if you ever played connect the dots. This is a forum. A forum was historically, and is now, a place for public debate. This is not even remotely like a thread about wine and someone coming in and saying "I hate wine and I like beer". This is more like a group of people getting together to select their next emperor and someone coming in and saying "We need to stop selecting tyrannical emperors and democratically vote for a president with term limits!"
Video game Kickstarters are insanity. You are handing someone money, so that they can go on and create a product which may make them wealthy, and in return they are giving you in-game, digital, worthless trinkets.
He's not in any way saying that he wouldn't give this company money to help make their game. What he's saying, and what I'm agreeing with, is to fork over hundreds or thousands of dollars to someone for in-game, worthless trinkets is a sign of mental illness.
I would happily fork over a couple of hundred dollars to help this game, maybe even a couple of thousand, but I do not care about or want any in-game digital trash. I want shares in the company. I want to invest. When these guys make the next World of Warcraft I want to be polishing the Ferrari Italia 458 in my driveway not some ridiculous in-game crown.
I found it for you. This is the thread you and he were looking for. This is your Greek-themed forum hall debate over kickstarters. If you want to go whine about kickstarters, go to that thread.
For someone who claims others are missing things, i'm surprised you failed to find that thread with a simple forum search that took me all of two minutes. No one here is interested in throwing out the kickstarter system or changing it radically, so again, you are wrong in believing anyone cares what you have to say about "the insanity" of kickstarters donations versus investments.
I know finding things is hard for you, so let me requote myself for you so you can read it again:
I decided a while ago I was going to throw $250 at this game regardless of what that ends up getting me, so for me its kind of a happy surprise to see what i'll end up getting.
I don't care what my $250 gets me, because i'm not putting my money in to get "some ridiculous in-game crown". $250 is the most i can afford to help see this game succeed. I want it to succeed, and that is why i'm donating my money. What ever else I get after it succeeds is just gravy.
Next time read my entire post before you begin your teenage-angst retort on bringing down "the system".
Thanks for your interest in Chronicles of Elyria, and in our
upcoming Kickstarter. As is obvious from the multiple messages telling the OP
so, as well as the document the information was pulled from, the information
contained in this thread was private information we were circulating within our
community in order to get feedback about what kinds of tiers we were looking
at, what kinds of rewards we were offering, and whether people felt like the
tiers and rewards were equitable. As others have said, it was, and still is,
subject to change.
Unfortunately, someone felt the need to make themselves
important and leak the information to the public before we were ready to share
it. C'est la vie. We don't really care the information was leaked. What
concerns us most is that it was done so without the conversation and context
that existed in our IRC channel at the time the information was shared. So let
me take this opportunity to provide some of the context, relay some of the
information missing from the OP, and then respond to some of the comments people
have made in the thread so far.
Research-driven Tiers
First, none of the tiers are random. The tiers are being
developed through a tremendous research effort. Not just looking at past
Kickstarters, though that plays a large role in it, but also by identifying who
we think are likely to back our project on Kickstarter, what we think their
budget is, and what we believe they'd be most interested in. Some of this is
based on our own opinions as gamers and some of it is solicited from various
communities.
To provide some examples, we created personas which we felt
covered the majority of backers out there. Our personas included things like:
solo players, enthusiasts, spouses, friend squads, YouTubers/streamers, large
guilds, and yep, even whales. For each persona we thought about what they'd
likely be interested in and able to spend on supporting us and what we thought
they'd like as a reward. We then took that and used that information to create
our tiers.
At the end of the day, we're still iterating on our tier
values and the numbers themselves won't be locked in until Monday or Tuesday of
next week. However, the takeaway here is that our goal is to get as much
support as possible, while at the same time making sure the people who support
us feel like they're getting something worthwhile in return.
Missing Information -
Influence (IP) & The IP Store
Some of the information missing from the original post is
that we wanted to give backers as much flexibility as possible when choosing
their rewards. Our initial plan for that was to just offer a few backing tiers
with increasing amounts of IP, and then provide an IP store where people could
use the IP they got while backing us to buy whatever they want.
While that system is still in place, feedback we got from
talking to people was that it created too many degrees of separation and that
the system was only good for people who already knew what Influence Points
were, and what they wanted as a reward. We were encouraged to follow a more
traditional Kickstarter model so that those who stumbled on our Kickstarter
would have clear ideas about what we were offering.
As a result, we introduced additional Kickstarter tiers that
have specific rewards. However, and this was explained in IRC but not listed in
the document, each tier of our rewards comes with IP. That IP can still be used
to purchase stuff from the IP store which will be available as an image during
the Kickstarter campaign. So right off the bat the reward tiers appear to
contain less than they actually do.
The other important thing to note here is that Influence
Points (IP) can be earned not only through the Kickstarter by backing us at
different tiers, but can also be gained simply by participating in the
community and helping to influence the success of the game. This means that
LITERALLY everything that can be obtained via money by backing us on
Kickstarter can also be obtained without money. We recognize there are multiple
ways to influence the success of the game, and we offer the same rewards no matter
how people go about doing it.
With that out of the way, let me take a moment to address
some of the questions/comments/observations people have made in this thread and
in other locations.
At the time of this posting we had 24 reward tiers in the
Kickstarter in order to provide a wide range of options. In some cases, there
are multiple tiers at the same dollar value and in some cases we've got the
same reward at two tiers for an Early Bird. But to put it in comparison, here's
the number of tiers of other campaigns:
·
Crowfall: 18
·
Camelot Unchained: 36
·
Pathfinder: 19
·
Torment: Tides of Numenera: 28
·
Pillars of Eternity: 21
·
Elite Dangerous: 31
The average of those is 25.5. So with currently 24 tiers,
we're just below average.
Number of Tiers above
$1,000
We were criticized for having seven tiers above $1k. To put
it in comparison:
·
Crowfall: 4
·
Camelot Unchained: 16
·
Pathfinder: 8
·
Torment: Tides of Numenera: 5
·
Pillars of Eternity: 6
·
Elite Dangerous: 6
As you can see, we're again just below average of 7.5, even
if you take Camelot Unchained out.
Alpha / Beta Access
A number of people have criticized us for offering alpha /
beta access as a Kickstarter reward. This is something that literally every
successful Kickstarter has offered as a reward. I come from an era where people
were paid for alpha/beta testing, not the other way around. But the fact
remains, earlier access to the game is something people are willing to pay for,
and it's one of those things that people don't immediately yell "Pay to
Win!" when they see it. So for better or worse, paying to access alphas
and betas is here to stay.
As for the dollar amounts associated with the different
levels of alpha / beta access, that was established by looking at how many
people have historically backed at different levels across different games and
setting the numbers as high as we could to ensure a precise number of testers.
In other words, we didn't want to drop the alpha access too low, because we
didn't want thousands of people providing feedback during closed alpha. We
wanted a few hundred people providing feedback, so we set the value high enough
that it would ensure that.
This guarantees that we get a reasonable (not overwhelming)
amount of feedback, and it also guarantees those people who are testing at
different stages get as positive of an experience as possible. With fewer
numbers we can give the testers more attention and make sure they're being
heard.
Pay-to-Win
We're offering a number of rewards such as land, items,
property, noble titles, etc... A lot of people say this is pay-to-win. It's
not. They're stuck in a traditional MMO way of thinking. There is no winning or
losing in CoE. It's a constantly evolving story, and there will be people who
fill multiple roles - some nobles, some not. That all said, here's a few
reasons why it's not pay to win.
1. Anything obtained through Kickstarter can be lost
2. Anything that can be obtained through cash during
Kickstarter can also be earned via IP from influencing the success of the game
in other ways
3. CoE is a different kind of game. The game is fair, but
not equitable. Some players will begin the game with more stuff than others as
a way to seed/populate the world and to create conflict. That's no different
than starting a game a few months after others and seeing they’ve already
obtained land and resources before you joined. Likewise, in most MMOs the NPCs
have access to land and valuables that you don't. We're just transferring those
things from NPCs to players, choosing to offer those things to the players who
most influence the success of the game - through many different routes, not
just cash.
Still Iterating
Our tiers and rewards are still subject to change. How many
backers we need and at what tiers is one big equation. We continue to shift the
values and rewards between tiers to make the equation work out in our favor.
Check our Kickstarter next Tuesday to see where we end up.
3. CoE is a different kind of game. The game is fair, but
not equitable. Some players will begin the game with more stuff than others as
a way to seed/populate the world and to create conflict. That's no different
than starting a game a few months after others and seeing they’ve already
obtained land and resources before you joined.
...
That is indeed an interesting angle.
Looking at things in that way, it's perfectly justified to sell players a few years' worth of ingame resources before the game even launches.
After all, for those players who don't buy the extra stuff, launch day would be no different than starting the game a year after launch and having to catch-up to the rich and powerful...
So how does perma death work that is what turns me away from the game???
Your character ages and dies....
1.) Can character inventory be looted if character has a heart-attack. 2.) If character dies do you make another and have access to loot in your house aka Family members?
How does it work?
This is what turns me away from even doing a donation on kickstarter for this game.
3. CoE is a different kind of game. The game is fair, but
not equitable. Some players will begin the game with more stuff than others as
a way to seed/populate the world and to create conflict. That's no different
than starting a game a few months after others and seeing they’ve already
obtained land and resources before you joined.
...
That is indeed an interesting angle.
Looking at things in that way, it's perfectly justified to sell players a few years' worth of ingame resources before the game even launches.
After all, for those players who don't buy the extra stuff, launch day would be no different than starting the game a year after launch and having to catch-up to the rich and powerful...
Actually that's not true, if you had read the family dj you would know this. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/414-Design-Journal-5--Families--Family-Selection Depending if you'll start as a ward you'll start without no family or anything like that but you'll start at an earlier age. if you start with a family, depending on what family you'll pick you'll start differently. Hell you may even start out as a count or kind, or some rich merchant who looks to expand his family. Families in Elyria won't all be equally matched in wealth etc. they have different professions and such, so depending on what your parents are you'll live differently. But the thing that you'll have if you start out at launch is skill, or you have the possibility to learn a skill, and if you die you'll learn that skill faster depending on where you got to the last life, so you can reach higher mastery of that skill.
There's a different in material goods, which a lot of players today link with player skill and advancement, and actual player abilities and skills. Find out if you strive to become a formidable warrior in one particular fighting technique or if you rather attempt to get as much material things as possible. Just remember that Material things can easily be taken from you, even backers, but skills won't. Rich doesn't always equal to powerful.
A few points to consider. Each game you listed above was from either a known developer or company. To the best of my knowledge this game has neither. Also, you have single player games in your analysis.
Anyhow, we will know if your comparisons are right or wrong shortly. If you fund, great! If not, then you might want to listen next time:)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I sincerely hope that CoE funds and continues to fund all the way to launch. It is certainly the most interesting MMO experiment I have ever seen, and I'm dying to see how it all pans out in the long run.
I'll happily invest in a "spark" a few months after launch, once it's clear exactly what the final shape of it all will be, and how well it will be received.
A few points to consider. Each game you listed above was from either a known developer or company. To the best of my knowledge this game has neither. Also, you have single player games in your analysis.
Anyhow, we will know if your comparisons are right or wrong shortly. If you fund, great! If not, then you might want to listen next time:)
Caspian has involved people and listened to the community a lot in this and other parts of the games development. All I can see is that you want him to listen to you because you are obviously the expert.
I am reediting this since the mod didn't seem to like what I put before but the point is the same. You do not have any developing experience so maybe you should reign in your criticism to your area of expertise.
A few points to consider. Each game you listed above was from either a known developer or company. To the best of my knowledge this game has neither. Also, you have single player games in your analysis.
Anyhow, we will know if your comparisons are right or wrong shortly. If you fund, great! If not, then you might want to listen next time:)
And which companies or developers do you see as "known" I look forward to you actually listing them. The analysis was about kickstarters of games, think you missed the whole point of that analysis, but sure, take out the singleplayer games and look at what the results then give. Surely that can't be too hard now, can it.
Listen to the guy who ran crying to MMO, leaked info that wasn't ready instead of actually talking directly to the developers about it, trying to push down the prices of alpha so he didn't need to pay as much money for it. Is this the guy you would want to listen to when creating a KS?
A few points to consider. Each game you listed above was from either a known developer or company. To the best of my knowledge this game has neither. Also, you have single player games in your analysis.
Anyhow, we will know if your comparisons are right or wrong shortly. If you fund, great! If not, then you might want to listen next time:)
A few points in response...
First, the reason people like to back known developers or companies is because that demonstrates they have a proven ability to finish what they start. That builds confidence and makes supporting the project seem like a safer investment.
That's the main reason we've continued to put out screenshots, videos, design journals, and most recently a playable demo of our combat system. That's also the reason why at only a pre-production stage we showed up at PAX East 2016 and introduced ourselves to everyone. At the end of the day, we said we'd be at PAX East 2016 and we were. And people loved what we showed.
As to our "known-ness", you're actually mistaken. Here's a partial list of titles people on my team have worked on. And this is only what's available on MobyGames, and doesn't include the credits of either our sound engineer or composer, which would literally triple the size of the list.
Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard
Lord of the Rings: War of The Ring
Star Wars: Battlefront
Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction
Halo: The Master Chief Collection
Ryse: Son of Rome
F.3.A.R
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surver
Halo 2
The Mark of Kri
MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
Nancy Drew (4 titles)
The Lords of the Rings: War in the North
Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
As to us listing single player games vs. MMORPGs, that actually has very little bearing. People are willing to back based on perceived risk and perceived reward. While MMOs do incur significantly higher risk, they also come with significantly higher reward. In the end, we're assuming those cancel each other out, and are more than happy to learn from the single player games that have had successful Kickstarters.
Finally, keep in mind that the Kickstarter's success determines not only whether or not people will get an opportunity to play the amazing game we're working on, but it also impacts the course of a dozen peoples' careers and families. While I doubt someone who leaks information like this to the public cares much about the lives of the people it puts at risk, the least you can do is be a bit less cavalier when talking about the potential failure of a project that has a real impact on peoples families.
We take the success or failure of the Kickstarter very seriously. We ask that you do too. Or if not, silently gloat to yourself.
Jeromy, I think you are doing a fine job with displaying the information and getting people interested. You are always going to have people for and against you. It's the nature of things, I do appreciate for the most part you are remaining professional and just displaying the information and "showing your work". That does a lot more to booster my confidence in you than any amount of "winning" a debate with forum posters.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
And which companies or developers do you see as "known" I look forward to you actually listing them.
Umm... the list was in the post:
· Crowfall: J Todd Coleman (Shadowbane!!), Gordon Walton (UO, SWG...)
· Camelot Unchained: Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot...)
· Pathfinder: Well this one failed but had Ryan Dancey (Wizards of the Coast, Eve Online) Mark Kalmes (Cryptic), Lee Hammock (Fallen Earth, Elder Scrolls Online)
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: Brian Fargo (Seriously.. if you need a list of this guys games...)
· Pillars of Eternity: Umm.. you may have heard of Obsidian before. They only made games like Fallout:New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2...
· Elite Dangerous: You know... this is the 4th Elite game... and David Braben is the guy who started it all with Elite back in the 90s...
Folks today have become very hesitant to back Kickstarters for MMOs being created by developers or companies they do not know. That's just the inevitable outcome of so many hopes so far being unfulfilled.
Can you give me a list of MMORPG games that have had a successful Kickstarter from an unknown company and developer, that successfully launched?
"I look forward to you actually listing them."
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And which companies or developers do you see as "known" I look forward to you actually listing them.
Umm... the list was in the post:
· Crowfall: J Todd Coleman (Shadowbane!!), Gordon Walton (UO, SWG...)
· Camelot Unchained: Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot...)
· Pathfinder: Well this one failed but had Ryan Dancey (Wizards of the Coast, Eve Online) Mark Kalmes (Cryptic), Lee Hammock (Fallen Earth, Elder Scrolls Online)
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: Brian Fargo (Seriously.. if you need a list of this guys games...)
· Pillars of Eternity: Umm.. you may have heard of Obsidian before. They only made games like Fallout:New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2...
· Elite Dangerous: You know... this is the 4th Elite game... and David Braben is the guy who started it all with Elite back in the 90s...
Folks today have become very hesitant to back Kickstarters for MMOs being created by developers or companies they do not know. That's just the inevitable outcome of so many hopes so far being unfulfilled.
Can you give me a list of MMORPG games that have had a successful Kickstarter from an unknown company and developer, that successfully launched?
"I look forward to you actually listing them."
Again you have posted wrong information about the developers. Caspian has just listed all the games that he team have worked on yet you are still harping on about how the people in the team are unknown. Therefore I assume that you don't read what's been posted before.
And which companies or developers do you see as "known" I look forward to you actually listing them.
Umm... the list was in the post:
· Crowfall: J Todd Coleman (Shadowbane!!), Gordon Walton (UO, SWG...)
· Camelot Unchained: Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot...)
· Pathfinder: Well this one failed but had Ryan Dancey (Wizards of the Coast, Eve Online) Mark Kalmes (Cryptic), Lee Hammock (Fallen Earth, Elder Scrolls Online)
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: Brian Fargo (Seriously.. if you need a list of this guys games...)
· Pillars of Eternity: Umm.. you may have heard of Obsidian before. They only made games like Fallout:New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2...
· Elite Dangerous: You know... this is the 4th Elite game... and David Braben is the guy who started it all with Elite back in the 90s...
Folks today have become very hesitant to back Kickstarters for MMOs being created by developers or companies they do not know. That's just the inevitable outcome of so many hopes so far being unfulfilled.
Can you give me a list of MMORPG games that have had a successful Kickstarter from an unknown company and developer, that successfully launched?
"I look forward to you actually listing them."
Again you have posted wrong information about the developers. Caspian has just listed all the games that he team have worked on yet you are still harping on about how the people in the team are unknown. Therefore I assume that you don't read what's been posted before.
No "wrong information" was posted at all.
The dev team working on CoE are all unknowns.
Posting a list of all the games that some of the team members have been "involved" in does not change that fact. All it does is claim that there are in fact developers on the team that have some prior game development experience, which is good to hear.
However, they remain unknowns. I have no doubt that if there were some "big name" devs on the team, that would be announced with great fanfare. Well-known names attract support and KS pledges.
Posting a list of all the games that some of the team members have been "involved" in does not change that fact.
Was thinking the same thing but it's pointless to argue.
Fans tend to ignore logic because.. logic tends to spoil their fun.
Hey my name is listed in a handful of games credits for either being a tester or having donated. That puts me in the same category as Mark Jacobs... or Obsidian Entertainment....
Right?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You know, if some of you folk are so down on the game, and don't think it has a chance, and don't like the people involved... don't back it. Just. Don't. Back. It. And hey, here's a wild and crazy thought to wash that down with... why bother wasting our time, and your own, even talking about it? The Internet is such a bizarre place, I swear. People running around talking more about the things they hate than the things they like. It's kind of mental behaviour when you sit back and think about it.
Comments
That will not stop anyone else from playing the game putting in more hours than the person pledging in kickstarter and getting the materials to build a much better house and they won't have to pay a penny more than their subscription/life.
All it is doing is saying oh you bought a collectors edition of the gsme here is your kickstart in game in reward for you kickstaring the game studio.
Here you go:
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/444975/problems-with-kickstarter-etc-starting-to-show
I found it for you. This is the thread you and he were looking for. This is your Greek-themed forum hall debate over kickstarters. If you want to go whine about kickstarters, go to that thread.
For someone who claims others are missing things, i'm surprised you failed to find that thread with a simple forum search that took me all of two minutes. No one here is interested in throwing out the kickstarter system or changing it radically, so again, you are wrong in believing anyone cares what you have to say about "the insanity" of kickstarters donations versus investments.
I know finding things is hard for you, so let me requote myself for you so you can read it again:
I don't care what my $250 gets me, because i'm not putting my money in to get "some ridiculous in-game crown". $250 is the most i can afford to help see this game succeed. I want it to succeed, and that is why i'm donating my money. What ever else I get after it succeeds is just gravy.
Next time read my entire post before you begin your teenage-angst retort on bringing down "the system".
Hello Everyone!
Thanks for your interest in Chronicles of Elyria, and in our upcoming Kickstarter. As is obvious from the multiple messages telling the OP so, as well as the document the information was pulled from, the information contained in this thread was private information we were circulating within our community in order to get feedback about what kinds of tiers we were looking at, what kinds of rewards we were offering, and whether people felt like the tiers and rewards were equitable. As others have said, it was, and still is, subject to change.
Unfortunately, someone felt the need to make themselves important and leak the information to the public before we were ready to share it. C'est la vie. We don't really care the information was leaked. What concerns us most is that it was done so without the conversation and context that existed in our IRC channel at the time the information was shared. So let me take this opportunity to provide some of the context, relay some of the information missing from the OP, and then respond to some of the comments people have made in the thread so far.
Research-driven Tiers
First, none of the tiers are random. The tiers are being developed through a tremendous research effort. Not just looking at past Kickstarters, though that plays a large role in it, but also by identifying who we think are likely to back our project on Kickstarter, what we think their budget is, and what we believe they'd be most interested in. Some of this is based on our own opinions as gamers and some of it is solicited from various communities.
To provide some examples, we created personas which we felt covered the majority of backers out there. Our personas included things like: solo players, enthusiasts, spouses, friend squads, YouTubers/streamers, large guilds, and yep, even whales. For each persona we thought about what they'd likely be interested in and able to spend on supporting us and what we thought they'd like as a reward. We then took that and used that information to create our tiers.
At the end of the day, we're still iterating on our tier values and the numbers themselves won't be locked in until Monday or Tuesday of next week. However, the takeaway here is that our goal is to get as much support as possible, while at the same time making sure the people who support us feel like they're getting something worthwhile in return.
Missing Information - Influence (IP) & The IP Store
Some of the information missing from the original post is that we wanted to give backers as much flexibility as possible when choosing their rewards. Our initial plan for that was to just offer a few backing tiers with increasing amounts of IP, and then provide an IP store where people could use the IP they got while backing us to buy whatever they want.
While that system is still in place, feedback we got from talking to people was that it created too many degrees of separation and that the system was only good for people who already knew what Influence Points were, and what they wanted as a reward. We were encouraged to follow a more traditional Kickstarter model so that those who stumbled on our Kickstarter would have clear ideas about what we were offering.
As a result, we introduced additional Kickstarter tiers that have specific rewards. However, and this was explained in IRC but not listed in the document, each tier of our rewards comes with IP. That IP can still be used to purchase stuff from the IP store which will be available as an image during the Kickstarter campaign. So right off the bat the reward tiers appear to contain less than they actually do.
The other important thing to note here is that Influence Points (IP) can be earned not only through the Kickstarter by backing us at different tiers, but can also be gained simply by participating in the community and helping to influence the success of the game. This means that LITERALLY everything that can be obtained via money by backing us on Kickstarter can also be obtained without money. We recognize there are multiple ways to influence the success of the game, and we offer the same rewards no matter how people go about doing it.
With that out of the way, let me take a moment to address some of the questions/comments/observations people have made in this thread and in other locations.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Number of Tiers
At the time of this posting we had 24 reward tiers in the Kickstarter in order to provide a wide range of options. In some cases, there are multiple tiers at the same dollar value and in some cases we've got the same reward at two tiers for an Early Bird. But to put it in comparison, here's the number of tiers of other campaigns:
· Crowfall: 18
· Camelot Unchained: 36
· Pathfinder: 19
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: 28
· Pillars of Eternity: 21
· Elite Dangerous: 31
The average of those is 25.5. So with currently 24 tiers, we're just below average.
Number of Tiers above $1,000
We were criticized for having seven tiers above $1k. To put it in comparison:
· Crowfall: 4
· Camelot Unchained: 16
· Pathfinder: 8
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: 5
· Pillars of Eternity: 6
· Elite Dangerous: 6
As you can see, we're again just below average of 7.5, even if you take Camelot Unchained out.
Alpha / Beta Access
A number of people have criticized us for offering alpha / beta access as a Kickstarter reward. This is something that literally every successful Kickstarter has offered as a reward. I come from an era where people were paid for alpha/beta testing, not the other way around. But the fact remains, earlier access to the game is something people are willing to pay for, and it's one of those things that people don't immediately yell "Pay to Win!" when they see it. So for better or worse, paying to access alphas and betas is here to stay.
As for the dollar amounts associated with the different levels of alpha / beta access, that was established by looking at how many people have historically backed at different levels across different games and setting the numbers as high as we could to ensure a precise number of testers. In other words, we didn't want to drop the alpha access too low, because we didn't want thousands of people providing feedback during closed alpha. We wanted a few hundred people providing feedback, so we set the value high enough that it would ensure that.
This guarantees that we get a reasonable (not overwhelming) amount of feedback, and it also guarantees those people who are testing at different stages get as positive of an experience as possible. With fewer numbers we can give the testers more attention and make sure they're being heard.
Pay-to-Win
We're offering a number of rewards such as land, items, property, noble titles, etc... A lot of people say this is pay-to-win. It's not. They're stuck in a traditional MMO way of thinking. There is no winning or losing in CoE. It's a constantly evolving story, and there will be people who fill multiple roles - some nobles, some not. That all said, here's a few reasons why it's not pay to win.
1. Anything obtained through Kickstarter can be lost
2. Anything that can be obtained through cash during Kickstarter can also be earned via IP from influencing the success of the game in other ways
3. CoE is a different kind of game. The game is fair, but not equitable. Some players will begin the game with more stuff than others as a way to seed/populate the world and to create conflict. That's no different than starting a game a few months after others and seeing they’ve already obtained land and resources before you joined. Likewise, in most MMOs the NPCs have access to land and valuables that you don't. We're just transferring those things from NPCs to players, choosing to offer those things to the players who most influence the success of the game - through many different routes, not just cash.
Still Iterating
Our tiers and rewards are still subject to change. How many backers we need and at what tiers is one big equation. We continue to shift the values and rewards between tiers to make the equation work out in our favor. Check our Kickstarter next Tuesday to see where we end up.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Looking at things in that way, it's perfectly justified to sell players a few years' worth of ingame resources before the game even launches.
After all, for those players who don't buy the extra stuff, launch day would be no different than starting the game a year after launch and having to catch-up to the rich and powerful...
Depending if you'll start as a ward you'll start without no family or anything like that but you'll start at an earlier age. if you start with a family, depending on what family you'll pick you'll start differently.
Hell you may even start out as a count or kind, or some rich merchant who looks to expand his family. Families in Elyria won't all be equally matched in wealth etc. they have different professions and such, so depending on what your parents are you'll live differently. But the thing that you'll have if you start out at launch is skill, or you have the possibility to learn a skill, and if you die you'll learn that skill faster depending on where you got to the last life, so you can reach higher mastery of that skill.
There's a different in material goods, which a lot of players today link with player skill and advancement, and actual player abilities and skills. Find out if you strive to become a formidable warrior in one particular fighting technique or if you rather attempt to get as much material things as possible. Just remember that Material things can easily be taken from you, even backers, but skills won't.
Rich doesn't always equal to powerful.
A few points to consider. Each game you listed above was from either a known developer or company. To the best of my knowledge this game has neither. Also, you have single player games in your analysis.
Anyhow, we will know if your comparisons are right or wrong shortly. If you fund, great! If not, then you might want to listen next time:)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'll happily invest in a "spark" a few months after launch, once it's clear exactly what the final shape of it all will be, and how well it will be received.
Caspian has involved people and listened to the community a lot in this and other parts of the games development. All I can see is that you want him to listen to you because you are obviously the expert.
I am reediting this since the mod didn't seem to like what I put before but the point is the same. You do not have any developing experience so maybe you should reign in your criticism to your area of expertise.
And I reiterate you need to learn nettiquette
The analysis was about kickstarters of games, think you missed the whole point of that analysis, but sure, take out the singleplayer games and look at what the results then give. Surely that can't be too hard now, can it.
Listen to the guy who ran crying to MMO, leaked info that wasn't ready instead of actually talking directly to the developers about it, trying to push down the prices of alpha so he didn't need to pay as much money for it.
Is this the guy you would want to listen to when creating a KS?
First, the reason people like to back known developers or companies is because that demonstrates they have a proven ability to finish what they start. That builds confidence and makes supporting the project seem like a safer investment.
That's the main reason we've continued to put out screenshots, videos, design journals, and most recently a playable demo of our combat system. That's also the reason why at only a pre-production stage we showed up at PAX East 2016 and introduced ourselves to everyone. At the end of the day, we said we'd be at PAX East 2016 and we were. And people loved what we showed.
As to our "known-ness", you're actually mistaken. Here's a partial list of titles people on my team have worked on. And this is only what's available on MobyGames, and doesn't include the credits of either our sound engineer or composer, which would literally triple the size of the list.
- Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard
- Lord of the Rings: War of The Ring
- Star Wars: Battlefront
- Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction
- Halo: The Master Chief Collection
- Ryse: Son of Rome
- F.3.A.R
- Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surver
- Halo 2
- The Mark of Kri
- MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
- Nancy Drew (4 titles)
- The Lords of the Rings: War in the North
- Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
As to us listing single player games vs. MMORPGs, that actually has very little bearing. People are willing to back based on perceived risk and perceived reward. While MMOs do incur significantly higher risk, they also come with significantly higher reward. In the end, we're assuming those cancel each other out, and are more than happy to learn from the single player games that have had successful Kickstarters.Finally, keep in mind that the Kickstarter's success determines not only whether or not people will get an opportunity to play the amazing game we're working on, but it also impacts the course of a dozen peoples' careers and families. While I doubt someone who leaks information like this to the public cares much about the lives of the people it puts at risk, the least you can do is be a bit less cavalier when talking about the potential failure of a project that has a real impact on peoples families.
We take the success or failure of the Kickstarter very seriously. We ask that you do too. Or if not, silently gloat to yourself.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Then the posters above can come back and either gloat or acknowledge they were wrong. Should be fun!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
· Crowfall: J Todd Coleman (Shadowbane!!), Gordon Walton (UO, SWG...)
· Camelot Unchained: Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot...)
· Pathfinder: Well this one failed but had Ryan Dancey (Wizards of the Coast, Eve Online) Mark Kalmes (Cryptic), Lee Hammock (Fallen Earth, Elder Scrolls Online)
· Torment: Tides of Numenera: Brian Fargo (Seriously.. if you need a list of this guys games...)
· Pillars of Eternity: Umm.. you may have heard of Obsidian before. They only made games like Fallout:New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2...
· Elite Dangerous: You know... this is the 4th Elite game... and David Braben is the guy who started it all with Elite back in the 90s...
Folks today have become very hesitant to back Kickstarters for MMOs being created by developers or companies they do not know. That's just the inevitable outcome of so many hopes so far being unfulfilled.
Can you give me a list of MMORPG games that have had a successful Kickstarter from an unknown company and developer, that successfully launched?
"I look forward to you actually listing them."
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Therefore I assume that you don't read what's been posted before.
The dev team working on CoE are all unknowns.
Posting a list of all the games that some of the team members have been "involved" in does not change that fact. All it does is claim that there are in fact developers on the team that have some prior game development experience, which is good to hear.
However, they remain unknowns. I have no doubt that if there were some "big name" devs on the team, that would be announced with great fanfare. Well-known names attract support and KS pledges.
Fans tend to ignore logic because.. logic tends to spoil their fun.
Right?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Going once...
Going twice...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Nothing has and probably never will due to the over processing (bigger plans than budget)
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.