My take on crowd funding MMO's is to just wait for them to release. If they release and it is a good game i'll be happy there is a game I can enjoy. I don't back any thing because I just don't know where i'll be in a few years and i don't care enough to get a head start in any game because I don't have the time for it to even matter.
On-topic: The MMORPG genre is stale not because there are no new games but because there is no new innovation. I don't see any thing ground breaking or earth shattering about Pantheon to make it different than any other MMO. The old-school vibe is probably a flawed concept as people associate their non-novelty experience which happened to be with older and tougher games compared to their post-novelty experience of the current genre.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
So fun some fanboys coming on the internet saying VG has been the best mmo ever. I was ALONE on VG for YEARS. ALONE. Where have you been fanboys ? Not online. I was Completely ALONE on KOJAN, Alone on Qhalia, Alone on thestra. I was ALONE on SWG, could see 4/5 players on the cantina. So funny, players whinning about the best mmo ever AFTER the end. Never when the game is online; So I won't take a sub to Pantheon because I payed enough for born dead video games. I keep my money now, for a new pc or an XBOX one + serious games as FF14 or TESO or even BDO. not for another fail. I payed for War online, I payed for VG, for H1Z1, for Landmark, for Albion online, I payed for repopulation, for SOTA, for SWg, for fallen earth. Now it's over bank is closed. I won't pay another cent for no AAA+ games.
These 'fanboys' had probably left VG. It may have been a great game despite failing, but it was DoA. I loved the game and played alpha, beta and for 2 years after release. By then i had done everything and as the game was on life support it meant sticking around would be futile - i would just get bored and frustrated and taint my feelings toward the game. There were still a fair number playing when i left, but i am sure as time went by they too had to accept its eventual demise. Just because people enjoyed a game, doesnt mean they will stick around indefinitely (though i believe a few brave 1000s did stick it out to the end).
does the OP truly claim to know the history of brad with SOE and Vanguard? Why does noone take in to account why Vanguard actually flopped? oh lets see, because MICROSOFT abandoned the project and left the dev team without funding.. So brad BEGGED SoE to help save the project... he got 6 months of funding when he needed a years plus.. they rushed to release vanguard.. they have said time and time again that this game will be released when its ready, not because of a rush.. Say what you will about his alleged "drug problems" and disrespect for fellow employees if you want to fall back on those stories.. But at the end of the day brad didnt run SOE or Vangaurd in to the ground. He is just the one thats left to blame for it all, so you do.
Oh and by the way, five years in development is a fairly standard time for an MMO, ESPECIALLY with a small indie team like VR has...
I'm with you on this, But their are pros and cons
- First is a fact.... No one knows the real story, the headlines stories could be true, but like anything the large amount of smaller bits and paces are left out. Theirs's always two sides too. It's exactly like a divorce. Talk to both sides and both sides will absolutely convince you their right.
Their is never a REAL answer when it comes to social disputes !
- Drug problem, I have 28 years as an expert in dealing with this. It's a bad epidemic, but It's rare that it's the downfall and most major contributor of a company downfall. The person may need help because he doesn't show up all the time or nasty mood swings or cause some arguments in day to day life. But again it's rare that ones addiction runs a company into the ground.
It's more a deformation of character and an amplified stigma.
- Sure you could blame Microsoft or SOE, But some of the blame does fall on Brad. I'm convinced "its coding". It's all about bad programming. This caused to much waisted time !!! This caused HUGE time investment is moving forward with building the world. Bad coding plagued all SOE's games and their stubborn about using it over and over.
Their convinced it works and refuse to re-tool..... Pantheon is on the same path !
<snip> Yes Vanguard was a flop, but I truly believe that was due to Sony forcing release early to generate revenue. <snip>
SoE were not involved in either the (initial) development or the release of Vanguard; Sigil Games was the company that made it.
Due to financial issues - they ran short of money - Sigil was forced to release Vanguard "unfinished". Remember that at the time there was no crowdfunding and no "early access" releases.
Despite a plethora of bugs - up there with the worst - Vanguard a) sold a reasonable number of copies and b) sustained a reasonable population - who paid a subscription - for c. 4 months. There were estimates based on activity back in the day at the population. By todays standards though folks hung around a while! Hoping.
In the end though the population began to fall off - maybe the population got bored, maybe it was the bugs - whatever. The game still needed work.
The initial revenue from box sales - of which Sigil will only have gotten a relatively small percentage being pre-digital distribution - and the initial sub income will have gone some way to paying off the development costs (all?) but keeping a team going costs money - staff quite reasonably want paying. And there came a point were the balancing act overwhelmed Sigil.
SoE stepped in and bought the game but not the company. They also hired some of the staff c. 50. Some we know went to other SoE projects, some - presumably - kept Vanguard running. Active "polishing" of the game pretty much stopped - although eventually they did fix most/all of the bugs after 6+ months. (My memory says 6 maybe it was longer.)
The advantages that Pantheon has:
Easier to raise additional funding IF they are able to demonstrate that it is real, it is progressing etc.
Digital distribution. Typically retail used to get developers 20-25% of the box price. Digital it can be maybe 70%. (There are costs, tax, transaction charges etc.)
More "OK" to release an initial "early version".
Disadvantages:
Subs were becoming unpopular when Vanguard released; today they are a hard sell indeed. And would be very hard for an early version game. Would Vanguard have done better if it had offered players a e.g. "6 months for the price of 3" package - given that it released with lots of bugs? Hard to say - would probably have kept more players around longer but would it have resulted in more total money? Which brings you into the realm of alternative funding methods ....
I don;t see why Pantheon won't release. When is a question. As is how "big" it has to be to keep it up and running after launch.
<snip> Yes Vanguard was a flop, but I truly believe that was due to Sony forcing release early to generate revenue. <snip>
SoE were not involved in either the (initial) development or the release of Vanguard; Sigil Games was the company that made it.
Due to financial issues - they ran short of money - Sigil was forced to release Vanguard "unfinished". Remember that at the time there was no crowdfunding and no "early access" releases.
Despite a plethora of bugs - up there with the worst - Vanguard a) sold a reasonable number of copies and b) sustained a reasonable population - who paid a subscription - for c. 4 months. There were estimates based on activity back in the day at the population. By todays standards though folks hung around a while! Hoping.
In the end though the population began to fall off - maybe the population got bored, maybe it was the bugs - whatever. The game still needed work.
The initial revenue from box sales - of which Sigil will only have gotten a relatively small percentage being pre-digital distribution - and the initial sub income will have gone some way to paying off the development costs (all?) but keeping a team going costs money - staff quite reasonably want paying. And there came a point were the balancing act overwhelmed Sigil.
SoE stepped in and bought the game but not the company. They also hired some of the staff c. 50. Some we know went to other SoE projects, some - presumably - kept Vanguard running. Active "polishing" of the game pretty much stopped - although eventually they did fix most/all of the bugs after 6+ months. (My memory says 6 maybe it was longer.)
The advantages that Pantheon has:
Easier to raise additional funding IF they are able to demonstrate that it is real, it is progressing etc.
Digital distribution. Typically retail used to get developers 20-25% of the box price. Digital it can be maybe 70%. (There are costs, tax, transaction charges etc.)
More "OK" to release an initial "early version".
Disadvantages:
Subs were becoming unpopular when Vanguard released; today they are a hard sell indeed. And would be very hard for an early version game. Would Vanguard have done better if it had offered players a e.g. "6 months for the price of 3" package - given that it released with lots of bugs? Hard to say - would probably have kept more players around longer but would it have resulted in more total money? Which brings you into the realm of alternative funding methods ....
I don;t see why Pantheon won't release. When is a question. As is how "big" it has to be to keep it up and running after launch.
Unfinished because of "bad coding". This is why Vanguard failed.
These 'fanboys' had probably left VG. It may have been a great game despite failing, but it was DoA. I loved the game and played alpha, beta and for 2 years after release. By then i had done everything and as the game was on life support it meant sticking around would be futile - i would just get bored and frustrated and taint my feelings toward the game. There were still a fair number playing when i left, but i am sure as time went by they too had to accept its eventual demise. Just because people enjoyed a game, doesnt mean they will stick around indefinitely (though i believe a few brave 1000s did stick it out to the end).
no
they left VG because it was UNPLAYABLE bugged as hell and worst than an alpha + grind game.the only playable area has been the small island coded by ... SOE. at the end. I was on VG, for YEARS, I could see maybe 12 players on island, not on the world. you're wrong and you know you're wrong .SOE tried to save this ... game, as they tried to save SWGboth empty and unplayable games. But what we can see on videos on YouTube looks like an indie version of VG, no more no less.
does the OP truly claim to know the history of brad with SOE and Vanguard? Why does noone take in to account why Vanguard actually flopped? oh lets see, because MICROSOFT abandoned the project and left the dev team without funding.. So brad BEGGED SoE to help save the project... he got 6 months of funding when he needed a years plus.. they rushed to release vanguard.. they have said time and time again that this game will be released when its ready, not because of a rush.. Say what you will about his alleged "drug problems" and disrespect for fellow employees if you want to fall back on those stories.. But at the end of the day brad didnt run SOE or Vangaurd in to the ground. He is just the one thats left to blame for it all, so you do.
Oh and by the way, five years in development is a fairly standard time for an MMO, ESPECIALLY with a small indie team like VR has...
I'm with you on this, But their are pros and cons
- First is a fact.... No one knows the real story, the headlines stories could be true, but like anything the large amount of smaller bits and paces are left out. Theirs's always two sides too. It's exactly like a divorce. Talk to both sides and both sides will absolutely convince you their right.
Their is never a REAL answer when it comes to social disputes !
Like usual, your fact isn't actually a fact. You use that word way too often.
There's no "two sides" having a "social dispute" when it comes to Brad's history. In fact, to Brad's credit, he's been incredibly forthcoming and honest about his own failures.
The "real story" has been covered pretty in-depth, both through Brad's own words and the words of employees involved, etc.
You underestimate just how deeply game devs are actually embedded in the larger gaming community. Most of them are fans of the games and are quite open about what happened in the studios that failed.
I grant you that a low-level programmer may not know what's going on atop the executive chain, but they are quite aware when the "big man" doesn't show up to the office, etc.
- Drug problem, I have 28 years as an expert in dealing with this. It's a bad epidemic, but It's rare that it's the downfall and most major contributor of a company downfall. The person may need help because he doesn't show up all the time or nasty mood swings or cause some arguments in day to day life. But again it's rare that ones addiction runs a company into the ground.
It's more a deformation of character and an amplified stigma.
- Sure you could blame Microsoft or SOE, But some of the blame does fall on Brad. I'm convinced "its coding". It's all about bad programming. This caused to much waisted time !!! This caused HUGE time investment is moving forward with building the world. Bad coding plagued all SOE's games and their stubborn about using it over and over.
Their convinced it works and refuse to re-tool..... Pantheon is on the same path !
Well, both of those problems fall into roughly the same category. When your Creative Director/Project Lead/Visionary or whatever isn't actually guiding the low level employees properly, it can quite easily run a company into the ground.
Some rich dude snorting coke while his management runs things might not affect his company much, but game development(or any creative project) is much more complex than that, particularly when the brains behind the project isn't contributing the way he should.
There's literally no blame that can be placed upon Microsoft or SOE in the fiasco.
(Not directing this at you Delete since you weren't the one blaming them anyway)
SOE had literally zero to do with the project, other than to toss out a life preserver when their long-time buddy came calling in desperation. Placing any blame on them is just stupid. They owed nothing and helped the game get somewhat stabilized.
Do we blame them for not wanting to invest a bunch of money in a mess of a game that wasn't even theirs? I can't see how anyone could fault them there.
Should they have dumped millions into someone else's already failed project? That's ridiculous.
And, of course, Microsoft simply made a smart business decision and dumped some dead weight. If you want financiers to keep supporting a project, you have to actually prove you are making some kind of positive progress. It's clear to anyone who played the beta, etc., that the game was having some major issues.
As for Brad himself, the guy simply can't be trusted. Between the VG fiasco and the early Pantheon funding shenanigans, he's proven that much.
Hopefully, for the sake of anyone working on the project, the other leaders of the current Pantheon iteration truly put the cookie jar where he can't reach it.
I have no personal hatred towards the guy or anything. If they release a great game, I'd check it out. I definitely wouldn't want to put my livelihood in his hands, though.
does the OP truly claim to know the history of brad with SOE and Vanguard? Why does noone take in to account why Vanguard actually flopped? oh lets see, because MICROSOFT abandoned the project and left the dev team without funding.. So brad BEGGED SoE to help save the project... he got 6 months of funding when he needed a years plus.. they rushed to release vanguard.. they have said time and time again that this game will be released when its ready, not because of a rush.. Say what you will about his alleged "drug problems" and disrespect for fellow employees if you want to fall back on those stories.. But at the end of the day brad didnt run SOE or Vangaurd in to the ground. He is just the one thats left to blame for it all, so you do.
Oh and by the way, five years in development is a fairly standard time for an MMO, ESPECIALLY with a small indie team like VR has...
I'm with you on this, But their are pros and cons
- First is a fact.... No one knows the real story, the headlines stories could be true, but like anything the large amount of smaller bits and paces are left out. Theirs's always two sides too. It's exactly like a divorce. Talk to both sides and both sides will absolutely convince you their right.
Their is never a REAL answer when it comes to social disputes !
Like usual, your fact isn't actually a fact. You use that word way too often.
There's no "two sides" having a "social dispute" when it comes to Brad's history. In fact, to Brad's credit, he's been incredibly forthcoming and honest about his own failures.
The "real story" has been covered pretty in-depth, both through Brad's own words and the words of employees involved, etc.
You underestimate just how deeply game devs are actually embedded in the larger gaming community. Most of them are fans of the games and are quite open about what happened in the studios that failed.
I grant you that a low-level programmer may not know what's going on atop the executive chain, but they are quite aware when the "big man" doesn't show up to the office, etc.
- Drug problem, I have 28 years as an expert in dealing with this. It's a bad epidemic, but It's rare that it's the downfall and most major contributor of a company downfall. The person may need help because he doesn't show up all the time or nasty mood swings or cause some arguments in day to day life. But again it's rare that ones addiction runs a company into the ground.
It's more a deformation of character and an amplified stigma.
- Sure you could blame Microsoft or SOE, But some of the blame does fall on Brad. I'm convinced "its coding". It's all about bad programming. This caused to much waisted time !!! This caused HUGE time investment is moving forward with building the world. Bad coding plagued all SOE's games and their stubborn about using it over and over.
Their convinced it works and refuse to re-tool..... Pantheon is on the same path !
Well, both of those problems fall into roughly the same category. When your Creative Director/Project Lead/Visionary or whatever isn't actually guiding the low level employees properly, it can quite easily run a company into the ground.
Some rich dude snorting coke while his management runs things might not affect his company much, but game development(or any creative project) is much more complex than that, particularly when the brains behind the project isn't contributing the way he should.
There's literally no blame that can be placed upon Microsoft or SOE in the fiasco.
(Not directing this at you Delete since you weren't the one blaming them anyway)
SOE had literally zero to do with the project, other than to toss out a life preserver when their long-time buddy came calling in desperation. Placing any blame on them is just stupid. They owed nothing and helped the game get somewhat stabilized.
Do we blame them for not wanting to invest a bunch of money in a mess of a game that wasn't even theirs? I can't see how anyone could fault them there.
Should they have dumped millions into someone else's already failed project? That's ridiculous.
And, of course, Microsoft simply made a smart business decision and dumped some dead weight. If you want financiers to keep supporting a project, you have to actually prove you are making some kind of positive progress. It's clear to anyone who played the beta, etc., that the game was having some major issues.
As for Brad himself, the guy simply can't be trusted. Between the VG fiasco and the early Pantheon funding shenanigans, he's proven that much.
Hopefully, for the sake of anyone working on the project, the other leaders of the current Pantheon iteration truly put the cookie jar where he can't reach it.
I have no personal hatred towards the guy or anything. If they release a great game, I'd check it out. I definitely wouldn't want to put my livelihood in his hands, though.
I'll not disagree with this. But I really think, Coding was the real issue. It was taking too long. No one could really fix that mess.
Great game...Could have been a WoW killer... sorry couldn't help that
These 'fanboys' had probably left VG. It may have been a great game despite failing, but it was DoA. I loved the game and played alpha, beta and for 2 years after release. By then i had done everything and as the game was on life support it meant sticking around would be futile - i would just get bored and frustrated and taint my feelings toward the game. There were still a fair number playing when i left, but i am sure as time went by they too had to accept its eventual demise. Just because people enjoyed a game, doesnt mean they will stick around indefinitely (though i believe a few brave 1000s did stick it out to the end).
no
they left VG because it was UNPLAYABLE bugged as hell and worst than an alpha + grind game.the only playable area has been the small island coded by ... SOE. at the end. I was on VG, for YEARS, I could see maybe 12 players on island, not on the world. you're wrong and you know you're wrong .SOE tried to save this ... game, as they tried to save SWGboth empty and unplayable games. But what we can see on videos on YouTube looks like an indie version of VG, no more no less.
Why were you there if it was so terrible? For you to have been around so late in its life for it to be so empty it means you were there late in its life.
I'm not wrong, i was there, my guild was there, others were there. We played we had fun. It performed like trash due to piss poor coding, but game breaking bugs? Some quests were buggy and getting stuck in the world were issues in the firsy few months, but gamebreaking? Hardly, crafting was fully formed, all major questlines functioned, dungeons fully playable. You could journey from 1 to lvl 50 without issue after the initial months. Performance was its epic failure, though even then the game didn't freeze on you, its just even an expensive pc would struggle to reach 45fps. The real nail in the coffin was the SOE bail out - simply because if piss poor coding is the issue with your game, they are hardly the people to call for help, they make their own mess well enough so the added challenge of inheriting someone elses would never end well.
I think in the MMO and MMOish game climate of failed launches, cancelled dlc's, delays for everything, never ending early access, rehashed old games served up as new, bad revenue methods and game cancellations the OP's question is going to be asked more often.
This is not just about a company or people getting a bad name though sometimes it can be, it is about a genre getting a bad name for failing to deliver. That is something that could drive MMOs into the ground.
does the OP truly claim to know the history of brad with SOE and Vanguard? Why does noone take in to account why Vanguard actually flopped? oh lets see, because MICROSOFT abandoned the project and left the dev team without funding.. So brad BEGGED SoE to help save the project... he got 6 months of funding when he needed a years plus.. they rushed to release vanguard.. they have said time and time again that this game will be released when its ready, not because of a rush.. Say what you will about his alleged "drug problems" and disrespect for fellow employees if you want to fall back on those stories.. But at the end of the day brad didnt run SOE or Vangaurd in to the ground. He is just the one thats left to blame for it all, so you do.
Oh and by the way, five years in development is a fairly standard time for an MMO, ESPECIALLY with a small indie team like VR has...
I'm with you on this, But their are pros and cons
- First is a fact.... No one knows the real story, the headlines stories could be true, but like anything the large amount of smaller bits and paces are left out. Theirs's always two sides too. It's exactly like a divorce. Talk to both sides and both sides will absolutely convince you their right.
Their is never a REAL answer when it comes to social disputes !
- Drug problem, I have 28 years as an expert in dealing with this. It's a bad epidemic, but It's rare that it's the downfall and most major contributor of a company downfall. The person may need help because he doesn't show up all the time or nasty mood swings or cause some arguments in day to day life. But again it's rare that ones addiction runs a company into the ground.
It's more a deformation of character and an amplified stigma.
- Sure you could blame Microsoft or SOE, But some of the blame does fall on Brad. I'm convinced "its coding". It's all about bad programming. This caused to much waisted time !!! This caused HUGE time investment is moving forward with building the world. Bad coding plagued all SOE's games and their stubborn about using it over and over.
Their convinced it works and refuse to re-tool..... Pantheon is on the same path !
The information I got is from an interview with Brad that happened in like 2013 it's on YouTube
Not trying to get into an argument or say anyone is right or wrong but even a Developer's word cannot be taken as FACT. What is actually FACT is what we see....play with a released product,not some Beta or testing or EA phase but the released product.
I mean i just got finished looking over Bless,the dev said was no way a p2w cash shop,outright lies.Pay to win can be construed "of course" to mean whatever you want it to mean,but devs have a pretty good understanding as to what it means in lament's terms.
Point being that even after a release we still cannot trust a developers or publisher's word,we need to see for our selves.
To this whole Pantheon debate,Brad has PROVEN to get his products out,no matter what you or i think of EQ1 or VG,those games released as more robust games than MOST of the market has to offer.Could anyone with a straight face compare vanguard to the crap that is ARPG's or battle Royale's or Moba's ?Far more cost and effort goes into making a MMORPG,so FACT that brad has been involved with bringing games to life should be enough to say >>>this game WILL launch.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@Bravnik There have been AAA MMORPGS that have been in production for the same amount of time or longer that do launch. So you have no point about how long this game has been in development. Your problem is with the developer which is more of a personal issue than anything. Pantheon will launch because it has enough money from investors to make it out the door. This game may even have a good population size to make a profit. It could have a million or more subs if they really take a look at their death penalty system because this could be the only problem that their game has that will push players away. As it stands right now, the EXP loss might hurt them long term. That does not mean that death cant be punishing, but I think the potential to lose a level is too much. 2.5% to 5% EXP loss not so bad.
@Bravnik There have been AAA MMORPGS that have been in production for the same amount of time or longer that do launch. So you have no point about how long this game has been in development. Your problem is with the developer which is more of a personal issue than anything. Pantheon will launch because it has enough money from investors to make it out the door. This game may even have a good population size to make a profit. It could have a million or more subs if they really take a look at their death penalty system because this could be the only problem that their game has that will push players away. As it stands right now, the EXP loss might hurt them long term. That does not mean that death cant be punishing, but I think the potential to lose a level is too much. 2.5% to 5% EXP loss not so bad.
hmmm, I think the jury is still out on whether it will have a good population size or that it could have a million or more subs if they changed the death penalty.
It sounds to me that they are making this game with a certain demographic in mind. Start changing things and you lose that demographic.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Death penalty will certainly remain a hot topic, even amongst the niche fanbase it is a very divided opinion. I think already they are angling towards debt rather than lvl loss, but xp loss if you have enough buffer.
I am a supporter of the game but am pretty confident that with or without death penalty we won't be seeing a million subs. I would say 10% of that post initial release would be a big success exceeding expectations.
I think it will be released. Most MMORPG's die in the conception and pre-beta stages. Many many developers
are just not prepared for the scale of it. Brad has proven when he's
there it'll at least release. I believe in Brad and I believe in the people working on this. I also think there're too many of us wanting to see it be real. This is having a positive affect its chances of success. At worst, it'll release early in a a desperate attempt to survive.
I think I'm in a unique crowd. I've seen so many MMORPGs come and go. I fully expect this MMO to dillute and water itself down to attract players, and while I disagree vehemently with this, it's a normal phenomena and I'll play it anyway. I have a computer to play it now, unlike when VG released. I was always blisteringly critical of VG, but having never played it, I sometimes think I never gave it a fair shake. I've promised myself I'll be there. I haven't pledged yet, but I don't like hte idea of putting money on something so early. I'm not an investor--yet. When this releases, I know this may seem premature to others, but I'll be thinking of those first moments in March 1999 when I played Everquest. I'll be taking screenshots and making memories. Unlike the younger players, I'll be going into this with much more experience.
I expect it to run poorly and have many bugs too. I'm not being unrealistic. I also understand whereas I'll give it a chance, many others won't because they won't have the connection I have--brought on by my numerous years playing EQ and my interest in niche gaming.
But how long will I stay, and will I play it furiously? That I don't know. I'm also interested in Saga of Lucimia, Wurm Online and others. And lately, honestly, I haven't been gaming much. I've been spending far more time on youtube.
When the mind behind the project is known for booming and busting vaporwares, no reason to think the result will be different from all the shit trail left as a track record.
When the mind behind the project is known for booming and busting vaporwares, no reason to think the result will be different from all the shit trail left as a track record.
Are you quite sure you know what Brad's history is? Or perhaps you don't realize the term vaporware doesn't mean what you think it does?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Keep in mind that Brad felt he had the time and the monetary backing to implement "the Vision", but when that rug got pulled out from under him he needed to quickly come up with a Plan B.
That Plan B was SOE and Smedley, without which Vanguard would have been relegated to the land of never been.
Sometimes a game developer's vision clashes with the reality of both time and money. It's easy to reskin a game and tack on a pay to win cash shop, then push the mess out the door in less than a year or so. Keep in mind that is not what Brad is doing here with Pantheon.
Like Star Citizen, Vanguard wanted to do too much too soon. Had the game been broken down into three installments, the first being the Eurozone land of the humans and elves, followed 6 months later by issuance of the Desert land, and finally 6 months after that being the East Asian land, it would have been able to initially launch in a smaller scale and in much better shape, as well as keep the content locusts on the hook for the next installments.
Another one of the problems in MMOs is the race to endgame by the content locusts. To address that developers need to have the first expansion pretty much in place at initial game launch. Waiting a year or so for that first expansion causes the content locusts to lose focus, and move on the next shiny. Developers need to not throw all their eggs in one basket, but rather spread them out over time to obtain cashflow.
The issue of Star Citizen's launch basically revolves around how ambitious their vision is, and the impact of when that vision collides with the reality of both time and financial backing.
Developing a MMO really is a business, and monetization of the MMO is a major decision needed up front. The fast and easy way out is the pay to win cash shop. Any moron can cash in by selling the loot bags lotto....
When the mind behind the project is known for booming and busting vaporwares, no reason to think the result will be different from all the shit trail left as a track record.
Assuming you mean Brad but afaik hes worked on two games before this, both released. One did terrible but it was a much more complicated problem than just "he took a 3 month pay advance and failed to recover the funding to cover it."
Hes there as Chief Creative Designer which to me sounds like a fancy way of saying Head Game Designer... and serves as a figurehead to promote the game since his name has some (in)famy in gaming.
Not that Pantheon is guaranteed to release much less be any good but youre implying hes got a long list of failed (as in unreleased) projects and ripping people off which I dont really see any substantial evidence of.
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My take on crowd funding MMO's is to just wait for them to release. If they release and it is a good game i'll be happy there is a game I can enjoy. I don't back any thing because I just don't know where i'll be in a few years and i don't care enough to get a head start in any game because I don't have the time for it to even matter.
On-topic:
The MMORPG genre is stale not because there are no new games but because there is no new innovation. I don't see any thing ground breaking or earth shattering about Pantheon to make it different than any other MMO. The old-school vibe is probably a flawed concept as people associate their non-novelty experience which happened to be with older and tougher games compared to their post-novelty experience of the current genre.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Just because people enjoyed a game, doesnt mean they will stick around indefinitely (though i believe a few brave 1000s did stick it out to the end).
But their are pros and cons
- First is a fact.... No one knows the real story, the headlines stories could be true, but like anything the large amount of smaller bits and paces are left out. Theirs's always two sides too. It's exactly like a divorce. Talk to both sides and both sides will absolutely convince you their right.
Their is never a REAL answer when it comes to social disputes !
- Drug problem, I have 28 years as an expert in dealing with this. It's a bad epidemic, but It's rare that it's the downfall and most major contributor of a company downfall. The person may need help because he doesn't show up all the time or nasty mood swings or cause some arguments in day to day life. But again it's rare that ones addiction runs a company into the ground.
It's more a deformation of character and an amplified stigma.
- Sure you could blame Microsoft or SOE, But some of the blame does fall on Brad.
I'm convinced "its coding". It's all about bad programming. This caused to much waisted time !!! This caused HUGE time investment is moving forward with building the world. Bad coding plagued all SOE's games and their stubborn about using it over and over.
Their convinced it works and refuse to re-tool..... Pantheon is on the same path !
Due to financial issues - they ran short of money - Sigil was forced to release Vanguard "unfinished". Remember that at the time there was no crowdfunding and no "early access" releases.
Despite a plethora of bugs - up there with the worst - Vanguard a) sold a reasonable number of copies and b) sustained a reasonable population - who paid a subscription - for c. 4 months. There were estimates based on activity back in the day at the population. By todays standards though folks hung around a while! Hoping.
In the end though the population began to fall off - maybe the population got bored, maybe it was the bugs - whatever. The game still needed work.
The initial revenue from box sales - of which Sigil will only have gotten a relatively small percentage being pre-digital distribution - and the initial sub income will have gone some way to paying off the development costs (all?) but keeping a team going costs money - staff quite reasonably want paying. And there came a point were the balancing act overwhelmed Sigil.
SoE stepped in and bought the game but not the company. They also hired some of the staff c. 50. Some we know went to other SoE projects, some - presumably - kept Vanguard running. Active "polishing" of the game pretty much stopped - although eventually they did fix most/all of the bugs after 6+ months. (My memory says 6 maybe it was longer.)
The advantages that Pantheon has:
Easier to raise additional funding IF they are able to demonstrate that it is real, it is progressing etc.
Digital distribution. Typically retail used to get developers 20-25% of the box price. Digital it can be maybe 70%. (There are costs, tax, transaction charges etc.)
More "OK" to release an initial "early version".
Disadvantages:
Subs were becoming unpopular when Vanguard released; today they are a hard sell indeed. And would be very hard for an early version game. Would Vanguard have done better if it had offered players a e.g. "6 months for the price of 3" package - given that it released with lots of bugs? Hard to say - would probably have kept more players around longer but would it have resulted in more total money? Which brings you into the realm of alternative funding methods ....
I don;t see why Pantheon won't release. When is a question. As is how "big" it has to be to keep it up and running after launch.
I worry about Pantheon
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Great game...Could have been a WoW killer... sorry couldn't help that
I'm not wrong, i was there, my guild was there, others were there. We played we had fun. It performed like trash due to piss poor coding, but game breaking bugs? Some quests were buggy and getting stuck in the world were issues in the firsy few months, but gamebreaking? Hardly, crafting was fully formed, all major questlines functioned, dungeons fully playable. You could journey from 1 to lvl 50 without issue after the initial months. Performance was its epic failure, though even then the game didn't freeze on you, its just even an expensive pc would struggle to reach 45fps.
The real nail in the coffin was the SOE bail out - simply because if piss poor coding is the issue with your game, they are hardly the people to call for help, they make their own mess well enough so the added challenge of inheriting someone elses would never end well.
This is not just about a company or people getting a bad name though sometimes it can be, it is about a genre getting a bad name for failing to deliver. That is something that could drive MMOs into the ground.
The information I got is from an interview with Brad that happened in like 2013 it's on YouTube
What is actually FACT is what we see....play with a released product,not some Beta or testing or EA phase but the released product.
I mean i just got finished looking over Bless,the dev said was no way a p2w cash shop,outright lies.Pay to win can be construed "of course" to mean whatever you want it to mean,but devs have a pretty good understanding as to what it means in lament's terms.
Point being that even after a release we still cannot trust a developers or publisher's word,we need to see for our selves.
To this whole Pantheon debate,Brad has PROVEN to get his products out,no matter what you or i think of EQ1 or VG,those games released as more robust games than MOST of the market has to offer.Could anyone with a straight face compare vanguard to the crap that is ARPG's or battle Royale's or Moba's ?Far more cost and effort goes into making a MMORPG,so FACT that brad has been involved with bringing games to life should be enough to say >>>this game WILL launch.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am a supporter of the game but am pretty confident that with or without death penalty we won't be seeing a million subs. I would say 10% of that post initial release would be a big success exceeding expectations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Keep in mind that Brad felt he had the time and the monetary backing to implement "the Vision", but when that rug got pulled out from under him he needed to quickly come up with a Plan B.
That Plan B was SOE and Smedley, without which Vanguard would have been relegated to the land of never been.
Sometimes a game developer's vision clashes with the reality of both time and money. It's easy to reskin a game and tack on a pay to win cash shop, then push the mess out the door in less than a year or so. Keep in mind that is not what Brad is doing here with Pantheon.
Like Star Citizen, Vanguard wanted to do too much too soon. Had the game been broken down into three installments, the first being the Eurozone land of the humans and elves, followed 6 months later by issuance of the Desert land, and finally 6 months after that being the East Asian land, it would have been able to initially launch in a smaller scale and in much better shape, as well as keep the content locusts on the hook for the next installments.
Another one of the problems in MMOs is the race to endgame by the content locusts. To address that developers need to have the first expansion pretty much in place at initial game launch. Waiting a year or so for that first expansion causes the content locusts to lose focus, and move on the next shiny. Developers need to not throw all their eggs in one basket, but rather spread them out over time to obtain cashflow.
The issue of Star Citizen's launch basically revolves around how ambitious their vision is, and the impact of when that vision collides with the reality of both time and financial backing.
Developing a MMO really is a business, and monetization of the MMO is a major decision needed up front. The fast and easy way out is the pay to win cash shop. Any moron can cash in by selling the loot bags lotto....
He is not CEO of VR like he was with Sigil ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=312345397
Hes there as Chief Creative Designer which to me sounds like a fancy way of saying Head Game Designer... and serves as a figurehead to promote the game since his name has some (in)famy in gaming.
Not that Pantheon is guaranteed to release much less be any good but youre implying hes got a long list of failed (as in unreleased) projects and ripping people off which I dont really see any substantial evidence of.